Powermatic vs Grizzly

[Deck Reagan]

Hey guys,
This is just my personal experience dealing with Powermatic vs Grizzly. A few years ago I purchased a Grizzly G1023RL 3hp cabinet saw. The fit and finish in my opinion was truly excellent. Not one issue with the saw. Prompt delivery, well packaged, everything on the saw was spot on. I had very few adjustments to make after set up. Customer service was fantastic when buying the saw. I ended up buying a new house and I decided to sell the saw to a colleague (big mistake).

At the end of September of this year I ordered a Powermatic PM1000. I decided to go with another cabinet saw and one that was 115v. I wanted to buy the best 115v I could find for my money. I figured Powermatic would be one of the best. My experience so far has not been great. The saw showed up on a busted up pallet. The fence rail box was tore up and the front fence rail was gouged. This was not shipping damage as all the parts were wrapped up nicely sitting on the pallet. I contacted PM and I received the new part a couple weeks later. It was hard to get a tracking number from them. I was ghosted by customer service a couple times. I went through two CSR's to get this part. Problem is I bought the black anniversary model and they sent the standard gold rail. I provided pics, proof of purchase, PN needed before they sent. I contacted them and they decided to send me a can of paint and asked me to paint the rail. This has been over two weeks now. I contacted them today and they haven't even sent the paint yet. The CSR emailed back just a bit ago and said they found a can and will be rushing it out to me. I ended up assembling the saw anyway with the black rail. The next problem was with the cast wings. They had a burr along the machined edge that mated up with the table. When you leveled the wing with the table top it was very noticeable. I had to give the wing top 90 degree edge a soft sand with some high grit metal paper. This seemed to solve that issue. When fastening them they just didn't quite line up evenly so I switched them around. This helped but then the front 45 degree bevel didn't quite line up. I brought that to their attention and they are supposed to be sending me a new set out. I'm still waiting for them. I asked today for a tracking number. So far I have worked with 3 CSR's and one tech support guy. I've had the saw a month now.

I truly believe Powermatic makes a great product but their after purchase support hasn't impressed me. In hind sight I wish I would have bought another Grizzly.

deck

[Pat Germain]

This doesn't surprise me. I think Powermatic is trying to live on their laurels. They make good machines, but as you are experiencing, their customer support is lackluster. PM machines are also way overpriced in my opinion.

Maybe they just took their foot off the gas hoping to rake in some profits before being bought out? Or maybe they seen the PM circling the drain in the near future and they have simply given up?

I was shopping for a cabinet saw a few months ago. I was leaning very hard at Harvey, but went with a SawStop and I'm very happy with it. Lucky for us, there are many other options. I didn't even consider Powermatic. Yawn.

I have a band saw and jointer from Grizzly and I think they're great.

UPDATE: So I didn't realize Powermatic was purchased by a Private Equity Firm in 2014. This explains a lot.

[mike stenson]

customer support, generally, is in decline these days.

edit: Even Felder has been disappointing.

[lou Brava]

Bummer on your PM experience, in my last 5 years or so of researching & buying new I ended up with Grizzly, Jet & Laguna as the PM line seems to be made in the same place as the rest, share parts & they are more expensive. IMO PM is no better than the any other major player but I've never done a side by side comparison. I do know I've had great success with all 3 manufactures on machine performance & customer service.

[George Yetka]

Felder, tried for me. I got a call inviting me to felder day in delaware. On the call he asked how everything was working out with my machine. I told him all was well asside from a small part that broke. He wrote up a ticket and I missed a few calls over the next 2 days before I finally was able to pick up and get a description and a part number to the rep. He told mne they are available and cost $4 but felders cheapest shipping is $75. I told him Ill pick it up the next time im in Delaware.

[mike stenson]

Felder, tried for me. I got a call inviting me to felder day in delaware. On the call he asked how everything was working out with my machine. I told him all was well asside from a small part that broke. He wrote up a ticket and I missed a few calls over the next 2 days before I finally was able to pick up and get a description and a part number to the rep. He told mne they are available and cost $4 but felders cheapest shipping is $75. I told him Ill pick it up the next time im in Delaware.

That's disconcerting. My rep wouldn't even bother to reply, so I found another. She helped out, then sent the sale back to the same rep that couldn't be bothered (so it seems like I'm stuck with a rep I don't trust or like). I guess now that they have money, I can expect even worse. Wonderful.

[Michael Burnside]

Nothing against the OP but posts like these end up just reinforcing what people already think. PM sucks. Grizzly sucks. Festool is overpriced and sucks. SawStop is tech any real woodworker doesn't need, oh, and sucks. And on and on.

I have 4 PM tools in my shop. All arrived in perfect condition, needing zero adjustments before use and build quality is outstanding. Calling them for a replacement part was simple and it arrived in a little over a week. Am I a shill and think they're perfect? Nope. Would I recommend them? Yep. Do I think there are viable alternatives for different types of woodworkers? Yep. Same goes with Harvey, SawStop, Festool, Dewalt and a Home Depot Husky products. I've dealt with all of them and they were all excellent CS, but could it be just my level of expectation? Maybe.

OP, if PM told me to paint my saw, I'd say bring a truck and come get it, I'll just get one painted green or black with a different company logo instead. That's out of line IMHO. I'm sorry you're going through the ringer, hopefully it all works out and you have a good saw in the end.

[mike stenson]

Michael, you only get one chance to make an impression. I'd be completely, and understandably, upset if I were the OP. I'd also tell em that they can have it back.

I'm not going to feel bad about businesses dealing with what they always have, customers with problems complaining about it.

[Richard Coers]

I agree with Michael. Everyone has a story of poor customer service, and good service. Ask 50 woodworkers about brands and you get 100 opinions. I had a very unpleasant experience with a machine from Grizzly. I don't own any Powermatic.

[Alex Zeller]

I own both Grizzly and PM tools. While I like most of my Grizzly tools I can only think of one that didn't require me to call customer service or have an issue I just dealt with, my oscillating spindle sander. My lathe came with damage from poor crating. My bandsaw had defective tires and vibrated. My planner had sharp edges on the table behind the two lower rollers that caused wood to hang up. My mortiser is an embarrassment. Grizzly no longer sells the model. My PM66 is a workhorse that has never let me down and my PM882 has the flatest tables and fence I have ever seen. Once getting the issues resolved my Grizzly tools have became workhorses as well.

[Michael Burnside]

Michael, you only get one chance to make an impression. I'd be completely, and understandably, upset if I were the OP. I'd also tell em that they can have it back.

I'm not going to feel bad about businesses dealing with what they always have, customers with problems complaining about it.

Understood. I don’t begrudge the OP but Richard hit the nail on the proverbial head.

[Phillip Mitchell]

They’re all overpriced, IMO. This is why I buy used industrial and do my own due diligence and maintenance / don’t even think about warranties or deal with sales reps / CSRs that just want to pass the buck.

Not for everyone but I don’t have these problems. If there is an issue then it’s on me to sort out and that can be a risk but has generally worked out well over the average of ~10 machines. The upside is that I acquire machines that are ~5-10x better build quality than new Chinese / Taiwanese for often times less than half the price so there is room and expectation there to occasionally have to sort a thing or two out here or there.

[Pat Germain]

Nothing against the OP but posts like these end up just reinforcing what people already think. PM sucks. Grizzly sucks. Festool is overpriced and sucks. SawStop is tech any real woodworker doesn't need, oh, and sucks. And on and on.

I have 4 PM tools in my shop. All arrived in perfect condition, needing zero adjustments before use and build quality is outstanding. Calling them for a replacement part was simple and it arrived in a little over a week. Am I a shill and think they're perfect? Nope. Would I recommend them? Yep. Do I think there are viable alternatives for different types of woodworkers? Yep. Same goes with Harvey, SawStop, Festool, Dewalt and a Home Depot Husky products. I've dealt with all of them and they were all excellent CS, but could it be just my level of expectation? Maybe.

OP, if PM told me to paint my saw, I'd say bring a truck and come get it, I'll just get one painted green or black with a different company logo instead. That's out of line IMHO. I'm sorry you're going through the ringer, hopefully it all works out and you have a good saw in the end.

I don't think the OP is saying "Powermatic Sucks". Rather, he paid a lot of extra money for Powermatic, he got a machine with problems and Powermatic customer support is thus far lackluster at best.

My take is any company can have problems with a particular machine. What makes the difference is if and how they make it right. Thus far, Powermatic gets the proverbial "Epic Fail". So why pay more for the Powermatic name?

[Pat Germain]

They’re all overpriced, IMO. This is why I buy used industrial and do my own due diligence and maintenance / don’t even think about warranties or deal with sales reps / CSRs that just want to pass the buck.

Not for everyone but I don’t have these problems. If there is an issue then it’s on me to sort out and that can be a risk but has generally worked out well over the average of ~10 machines. The upside is that I acquire machines that are ~5-10x better build quality than new Chinese / Taiwanese for often times less than half the price so there is room and expectation there to occasionally have to sort a thing or two out here or there.

The issue of buying used machines always comes up. I'm very happy you are able to find good, used machines in your area. Likely there are a lot of used machines in North Carolina because there were a lot of furniture factories in North Carolina. This is not the case in Colorado. I admit I don't check listings every day, but when I do check listings, I never see any good deals on good, used woodworking machines. I mostly see junk someone is trying to get rid of. If I see nice machines, they are priced at or near full retail.

[Phillip Mitchell]

The issue of buying used machines always comes up. I'm very happy you are able to find good, used machines in your area. Likely there are a lot of used machines in North Carolina because there were a lot of furniture factories in North Carolina. This is not the case in Colorado. I admit I don't check listings every day, but when I do check listings, I never see any good deals on good, used woodworking machines. I mostly see junk someone is trying to get rid of. If I see nice machines, they are priced at or near full retail.

I can imagine the used options being slimmer in CO. That being said, many of my machines have come from outside of NC and still been less expensive / worth it for me to acquire. Some I have taken trips to retrieve and others I have had freighted to me.

Off the top of my head, I have acquired used industrial machines from NC, SC, TN, VA, WV, MA, MI, NJ and still felt like I came out ahead overall compared to new. It is not for everyone to go down this road, but I do like to bring it up in these threads occasionally for those that think that new is the only feasible option. You do have to check listings with consistency and often times be set up and ready to secure or go get the machine when it becomes available, which is its own type of stress/burden. It also helps to look at more industrial / commercial type listings and not as much in the CL / Marketplace searches unless you have specific keyword searches. There is just too much drivel to sort through if just searching generally in those places.

It is disappointing to read the OP experience after paying a premium for the yellow paint and having an experience that would be more in line with what you might expect from the lower end of the green paint.

[Michael Burnside]

I don't think the OP is saying "Powermatic Sucks". Rather, he paid a lot of extra money for Powermatic, he got a machine with problems and Powermatic customer support is thus far lackluster at best.

My take is any company can have problems with a particular machine. What makes the difference is if and how they make it right. Thus far, Powermatic gets the proverbial "Epic Fail". So why pay more for the Powermatic name?

I know he didn't outright say that. I was just trying to make a point that you're only emphasizing. You clearly have biases against Powermatic. These types of threads just become a bandwagon for praise or condemnation.

I'll get on the bandwagon again :D...I don't know how many PM tools you have in your shop or how much experience with them you genuinely have. In multiple threads you have identified them as overpriced, so maybe that's your only perspective? I "pay more" because I have had excellent experience with all of the tools I own and as a self-diagnosed stickler of build quality, I've been more than happy with PM from that perspective as well.

By the way, reading the last sentence of my post you quoted should make it clear I'm not a PM shill. I think the OP has a legitimate beef with his current situation, but that doesn't imply my previous statements are incorrect. Again, if you read between the lines, I think this can be said of a lot of "controversial" and "over priced" brands I mentioned as well.

[Aaron Inami]

I own both Grizzly and PM tools. While I like most of my Grizzly tools I can only think of one that didn't require me to call customer service or have an issue I just dealt with, my oscillating spindle sander. My lathe came with damage from poor crating. My bandsaw had defective tires and vibrated. My planner had sharp edges on the table behind the two lower rollers that caused wood to hang up. My mortiser is an embarrassment. Grizzly no longer sells the model. My PM66 is a workhorse that has never let me down and my PM882 has the flatest tables and fence I have ever seen. Once getting the issues resolved my Grizzly tools have became workhorses as well.

I owned the same PM66 table saw which was purchased about 17 or so years ago. That was the best cabinet saw I had used in my life (now moved to a slider). However, it seems like the new generation of table saw products (PM1000/PM2000) are not being manufactured to the same level of quality:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qARex9vM_Lo

[George Yetka]

I think in general the larger a company the worse the cs. Pick a machine that has the best reports of shipping perfect and hope you dont end up in OPs situation. Ive had great response from some companies and crap from others it comes down to the people working cs. They all have the power to make your day great, some just want to watch the world burn.

If you find yourself being shut down call up again and get another rep.

[Pat Germain]

I know he didn't outright say that. I was just trying to make a point that you're only emphasizing. You clearly have biases against Powermatic. These types of threads just become a bandwagon for praise or condemnation.

I'll get on the bandwagon again :D...I don't know how many PM tools you have in your shop or how much experience with them you genuinely have. In multiple threads you have identified them as overpriced, so maybe that's your only perspective? I "pay more" because I have had excellent experience with all of the tools I own and as a self-diagnosed stickler of build quality, I've been more than happy with PM from that perspective as well.

By the way, reading the last sentence of my post you quoted should make it clear I'm not a PM shill. I think the OP has a legitimate beef with his current situation, but that doesn't imply my previous statements are incorrect. Again, if you read between the lines, I think this can be said of a lot of "controversial" and "over priced" brands I mentioned as well.

I honestly have no bias against Powermatic. One of my favorite Woodworkers, Marc Spagnuolo, used Powermatic machines almost exclusively for years. Powermatic only recently dropped their sponsorship.

When I look at Powermatic machines and compare them to other brands, I don't see the value. The prices are much higher than other brands, they are no longer made in the USA, they don't perform better than other brands and I get the impression their customer support isn't great. This tells me Powermatic machines are overpriced. That's not bias. That's reality.

I am not saying Powermatic makes bad machines. I'm saying many brands make good machines for much less money than what Powermatic charges and those brands offer good customer support most of the time. I just don't see any reason to pay more for Powermatic and that makes them overpriced.

[Michael Burnside]

I honestly have no bias against Powermatic. One of my favorite Woodworkers, Marc Spagnuolo, used Powermatic machines almost exclusively for years. Powermatic only recently dropped their sponsorship.

When I look at Powermatic machines and compare them to other brands, I don't see the value. The prices are much higher than other brands, they are no longer made in the USA, they don't perform better than other brands and I get the impression their customer support isn't great. This tells me Powermatic machines are overpriced. That's not bias. That's reality.

Pat, respectfully, it's not reality, it's still opinion.

[andy bessette]

...The next problem was with the cast wings...When fastening them they just didn't quite line up evenly so I switched them around. This helped but then the front 45 degree bevel didn't quite line up. I brought that to their attention and they are supposed to be sending me a new set out...

This is pure nit picking now. You should be able to make these fit, yourself, without having the supplier ship heavy parts back and forth.

[Edward Weber]

Nothing against the OP but posts like these end up just reinforcing what people already think. PM sucks. Grizzly sucks. Festool is overpriced and sucks. SawStop is tech any real woodworker doesn't need, oh, and sucks. And on and on.


I disagree somewhat.
You seem to be complaining about others opinions. These are just opinions, no one is more or less valid than anyone else's.

Everyone has had their own purchasing experiences, myself included and tool manufacturers are not a static entities. The business and personnel change from location to location and over time. Just because one person has a perfect experience, doesn't automatically mean the next person will, even if that should be the case.
Posts like these serve as an additional point, in what might become a trend.
If you see X posts saying BLANK tools are low quality or have bad CS, well then you might give them a more skeptical look when you're ready to buy. Everyone has their own point of view of what they consider service and quality.

There is a kernel ot truth in just about every post in this thread IMO.
I do think PM is relying on past laurels with inflated prices, doesn't mean they sell a bad tool. Festool products are expensive.
Grizzly has been steadily improving fit and finish over the last 20 years IME
And on and on, In My Opinion


The OP had a bad experience with one manufacturer and told the rest of us, that's it. Take that info and do what you want with it.
I think he was just letting off a bit of steam and maybe giving us a heads up athe the same time, that's okay.

[Pat Germain]

Pat, respectfully, it's not reality, it's still opinion.

I take no offense, but if Powermatic charge more and doesn't offer more, that's not opinion.

[glenn bradley]

If you browse around you will see that any vendor can have a QA or a CS failure. I am sorry Deck had the problem and unfortunately only the people he bought it from can really help him. I did a pretty thorough look-see when I bought my new saw some years ago. Powermatic was on the short list but in their defense the PM1000 turned out to be a sort of Powermatic-shaped-object targeting a certain price point. Laguna, Oliver, and others use the same approach to this entry level cabinet saw market. If the budget demands it you just have to decide which compromises work for you. There are gems out there but a cheap-out in a certain area may work for me but not matter to you. You have to do your homework at the time you are considering the purchase. Things change too fast to expect consistency ;-)

[Michael Burnside]

I take no offense, but if Powermatic charge more and doesn't offer more, that's not opinion.

Of course it is still opinion because what you see as "offer more" may differ from me. Brand reliability from past experience, for which I have. Brand build quality based on past experience, for which I have. Previous purchasing experience from vendors, delivery and setup experience, for which I have. Look, this is still my opinion here, but at least it is based on actual experience with the brand.

[Pat Germain]

Of course it is still opinion because what you see as "offer more" may differ from me. Brand reliability from past experience, for which I have. Brand build quality based on past experience, for which I have. Previous purchasing experience from vendors, delivery and setup experience, for which I have. Look, this is still my opinion here, but at least it is based on actual experience with the brand.

I can see that. There is value in a relationship with a vendor and a manufacturer. I don't have those relationships, so the value isn't there for me.

[Michael Burnside]

I can see that. There is value in a relationship with a vendor and a manufacturer. I don't have those relationships, so the value isn't there for me.

Cool, that's all I was saying.

[John Kananis]

I got lucky with my grizzly machines, twice, the second time each time...

I own a g1021x2 and g0858. Each was purchased at different times. The first machine sent to me was destroyed and the crate had visual damage (extensive and to both shipments purchased maybe a couple years apart). I sent them both back and the second time was a charm. Each machine was setup near perfect out of the crate. A little aggravation but happy in the end. And more the shipping company's fault than the manufacturer.

[Curt Harms]

I owned the same PM66 table saw which was purchased about 17 or so years ago. That was the best cabinet saw I had used in my life (now moved to a slider). However, it seems like the new generation of table saw products (PM1000/PM2000) are not being manufactured to the same level of quality:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qARex9vM_Lo

I'm pretty sure your PM66 was manufactured in McMinnville,TN. New PowerMatic saws are not. This is not to say that high quality saws cannot be produced in the far East, they can. But by the time money is spent on higher level manufacturing and quality control plus shipping I wonder how much of a price advantage there'd be over a USA made saw made to a higher standard. I do remember that Shiraz Balolia (sp?) of Grizzly saying that the manufacture of traditional woodworking machinery is unlikely to return to the U.S.

[Holmes Anderson]

I'm pretty sure your PM66 was manufactured in McMinnville,TN. New PowerMatic saws are not. This is not to say that high quality saws cannot be produced in the far East, they can. But by the time money is spent on higher level manufacturing and quality control plus shipping I wonder how much of a price advantage there'd be over a USA made saw made to a higher standard. I do remember that Shiraz Balolia (sp?) of Grizzly saying that the manufacture of traditional woodworking machinery is unlikely to return to the U.S.

Northfield?

I have had both the more expensive and less expensive Taiwan-made machines in my shop. People usually compare obvious things like table flatness but less visible things like the motors don't seem to equivalent. A motor can be half the cost of the machine.

[Richard Coers]

I got lucky with my grizzly machines, twice, the second time each time...

I own a g1021x2 and g0858. Each was purchased at different times. The first machine sent to me was destroyed and the crate had visual damage (extensive and to both shipments purchased maybe a couple years apart). I sent them both back and the second time was a charm. Each machine was setup near perfect out of the crate. A little aggravation but happy in the end. And more the shipping company's fault than the manufacturer.

So buying a Powermatic from a local dealer would completely remove your aggravation.. Having to wait for a second machine twice would not be a minor issue for me.

[Bob Cooper]

I run a business and yes it’s smaller not sure how relevant that is but I would think someone within the powermatic product management chain or customer support chain would really value monitoring forums like this. It’s a narrow field and wouldn’t be hard. It can be tough to get honest feedback. Especially from a group that’s a thats pretty level headed and would not be overly combative.

I would think someone would still care yet never a peep. Clearly someone at powermatic is a woodworker and likely reads theses posts.

personally I’m d love to get the good and the bad direct feedback on my company’s performance

[John Kananis]

Sure but color of the machine has nothing to do with it. Shipping damages happen.




So buying a Powermatic from a local dealer would completely remove your aggravation.. Having to wait for a second machine twice would not be a minor issue for me.