Apostrophes are used to show contraction or possesion,

[Cameron Wood]

but not plural.
Some of Bob's words get apostrophes, but others don't.
Also, occasionally for colloquial speech, just sayin'.

[Rob Luter]

It's possession.

[Tom M King]

A lot if people theses days don’t understand what either mean. I still stumble reading fast over people who don’t know, or are too lazy to know the difference between your and you’re.

[Rob Luter]

Agreed. Or there, they're, and their.

And don't get me started about the Oxford Comma....:rolleyes:

[Jim Koepke]

Agreed. Or there, they're, and their.

And don't get me started about the Oxford Comma....:rolleyes:

Not so sure about the Oxford Comma but Their, there and they're, there is always this:

509536

Recall the Oxford Comma being taught in grade school without the name. The rules of English were changed and it was removed from curricula by time I was in high school. Just like the double space at the end of sentences when typing.

jtk

[Rich Engelhardt]

U r - is what most type these days.

[Tom M King]

I was taught some things incorrectly when I was in Elementary school. For instance, I was taught that a comma always comes before "and" unless it applied to multiples of something. I still have trouble with that one. It was a very small school in a sparsely populated county.

[Patty Hann]

It's possession.

I thought this was possession

509538

https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/e83116475b3ecb732263a1a73c46297434f8ebfc/0_375_3504_2102/master/3504.jpg?width=700&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&

[Stan Calow]

I was taught some things incorrectly when I was in Elementary school. For instance, I was taught that a comma always comes before "and" unless it applied to multiples of something. I still have trouble with that one. It was a very small school in a sparsely populated county.

Tom, what you describe is the Oxford comma, how I was taught, and still correct. As is two spaces after a period.

I agree that apostrophes are misused all the time - its '70s, not 70's - but I think the battle for thats been lost.

[Rob Luter]

I thought this was possession

509538

https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/e83116475b3ecb732263a1a73c46297434f8ebfc/0_375_3504_2102/master/3504.jpg?width=700&quality=85&auto=format&fit=max&

Only if there’s pea soup barf.

[Rob Luter]

I was taught some things incorrectly when I was in Elementary school. For instance, I was taught that a comma always comes before "and" unless it applied to multiples of something. I still have trouble with that one. It was a very small school in a sparsely populated county.

Yup. Oxford comma. Old school, like me.

[Bill Howatt]

There are obvious incorrect use of punctuation but the other reality is that languages and their rules change with time so what the rule 5 decades ago may not be what is considered necessary today. My personal rule is to see whether or not the absence of a comma causes confusion or difficult reading.
One space after a period is the common usage today but 2 is OK if that's your style. Our company's style rule was 2 and word-processing instructors that visited had a bit of an issue with it but the customer is always right.

[Patrick McCarthy]

- its '70s, not 70's -

umm, should that be it's? . . . . just sayin' . . . .

[Stephen Tashiro]

As is two spaces after a period.



One of my gripes about online posting is that most forum software automatically removes the second space after periods even if you put it in.

[mike stenson]

It should be easy to see. The crux of the biscuit, is the Apostrophe.

I agree with the abbreviation usage too.

[Doug Garson]

I agree with Bill. the only thing that really matters is "whether or not the absence of a comma causes confusion or difficult reading." I'm more bothered by people who obviously don't proofread what they post and post a random collection of words (I don't call them sentences on purpose), that may be properly punctuated but don't have a clear meaning. I'm old enough that anything I learned in school is either in my subconscious ;) or totally forgotten:( either way, what's more important is whether the meaning is clear.:)

[mike stenson]

One of my gripes about online posting is that most forum software automatically removes the second space after periods even if you put it in.

The interesting thing here is I can tell your age, and that you're from America by the use of double-spacing after a period.

[Brian Tymchak]

- its '70s, not 70's -

umm, should that be it's? . . . . just sayin' . . . .

LOL! It also could be '70s or '70's depending on the context. '70 can be a noun and be possessive of something. ...Don't know what, but it could..

[Stan Calow]

ha! Maybe irony is too subtle for y'all. And yes, '70's could be appropriate used in the right place, but it never is.

[Tom M King]

I don’t think in words, so that doesn’t help. I was never great in English classes, but can read and retain really fast if the grammar and punctuation are correct. I always have to stop and go back to reread when someone uses “your” incorrectly. It’s really aggravating.

[Rob Luter]

It should be easy to see. The crux of the biscuit, is the Apostrophe.

I agree with the abbreviation usage too.

Zappa fan, huh?

[Alan Rutherford]

... - but I think the battle for thats been lost.


And theres another problem....

[Mark Hennebury]

What I have noticed is that many in the trades, such as woodworkers, machinist etc. are not very good at spelling and punctuation, easy to blame it on a low education for trades people, but maybe a different way the brain functions in different people. Some people have great memories and memorize math formulas and spelling rules and punctuation rules etc, and tend to do very well in a school setting, but put them in the woodshop and they cut the wrong part of a dovetail joint out, like they can't visualize it. I don't think in terms of memory, but in visual analysis, even when spelling i check if it looks right rather than knowing what rule it follows. When i build electrical control panels for automated machines, I start from scratch, add in a disconnect switch, a motor reverse switch, a control transformer, an on switch, an off switch, a clamp, feed etc. I don't work from memory of how I did the last one, or the rules of how it should be done.

English is complicated and you have to try and interpret what someone is saying, it is not always easy to know what someone means from reading what they have written, correct punctuation helps, but is no guarantee, so you have to try to get a feel for the conversation, as you generally only get short snippets of what the person is thinking.

The whole point is accurate communication of what's in someone's mind, whatever that takes.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

I always had a good rapport with my English teachers but could never earn a grade better than a C as well as my only F. My AG shop teacher who was a Korean Conflict Veteran would also never give me a grade better than a C. My Industrial arts teacher was a Vietnam War Veteran. He was able to over look my Dyslexia and other learning disabilities and gave me A's & B's, as well as an outstanding student award. The AG shop teacher did however call on me whenever he needed anything welded. Being called on to weld the important stuff around the AG shop is the best reward I ever earned in school.

[Doug Garson]

English is complicated and you have to try and interpret what someone is saying, it is not always easy to know what someone means from reading what they have written, correct punctuation helps, but is no guarantee, so you have to try to get a feel for the conversation, as you generally only get short snippets of what the person is thinking.

The whole point is accurate communication of what's in someone's mind, whatever that takes.
This reminded me of a poster I had over my desk at work decades ago (and this is from memory)
"Although you think you understood what you thought you heard me say, what you don't realize is that what I said was not what I meant"

[Brian Runau]

What I have noticed is that many in the trades, such as woodworkers, machinist etc. are not very good at spelling and punctuation, easy to blame it on a low education for trades people, but maybe a different way the brain functions in different people. Some people have great memories and memorize math formulas and spelling rules and punctuation rules etc, and tend to do very well in a school setting, but put them in the woodshop and they cut the wrong part of a dovetail joint out, like they can't visualize it. I don't think in terms of memory, but in visual analysis, even when spelling i check if it looks right rather than knowing what rule it follows. When i build electrical control panels for automated machines, I start from scratch, add in a disconnect switch, a motor reverse switch, a control transformer, an on switch, an off switch, a clamp, feed etc. I don't work from memory of how I did the last one, or the rules of how it should be done.

English is complicated and you have to try and interpret what someone is saying, it is not always easy to know what someone means from reading what they have written, correct punctuation helps, but is no guarantee, so you have to try to get a feel for the conversation, as you generally only get short snippets of what the person is thinking.

The whole point is accurate communication of what's in someone's mind, whatever that takes.

Always felt it was how are brains are wired. Good math skills, speech major education minor. Was a technical industrial product salesman, product Mgr, purchasing Mgr in this field working for multinationals and with engineers. Always told people I translated engineer speak into English. Never felt like the writing half of my brain picked it up well. Brian

[mike stenson]

Zappa fan, huh?

I dabble...

[Mel Fulks]

No ,that’s a double exposure .

[Zachary Hoyt]

I still do double spaces between sentences, because that's how I learned it 30 years or a bit more ago. I didn't pick up the Oxford comma till (or should that be 'til?) relatively recently, but I like it and use it now.

[glenn bradley]

- its '70s, not 70's -

umm, should that be it's? . . . . just sayin' . . . .

Coffee on the monitor, keyboard, and desk. Do you see what I did there? :D

[Warren Lake]

ever sneezed with a full mouth of oatmeal?

[Mel Fulks]

And ….there is the “there there” , it’s the preamble to “ in a few months or ….years you’l forget me “

[roger wiegand]

Two spaces after periods is strictly an artifact of the era of monospace typefaces produced by typewriters. In either handwriting or in proper typesetting (as modern computers are capable of) the space after a period is slightly larger than a single space but smaller than two full single spaces. So if you're using a typewriter then yes, use two spaces. If you're using modern fonts on a computer then one that is properly kerned will look better and be more readable. Awkwardly large gaps between sentences are just ugly and jarring to the reader. It's right up there with using putty to fill in the gaps in your dovetails.

[Jason Roehl]

I agree that language rules morph over the years, but who do you want to drive those changes?

Do you want Big Brother to give us Newspeak? Do we want government-mandated changes? Do we want digital media addicts to sift everything down to abbreviations and acronyms? Or do we want educated people who can analyze usage patterns to recommend improvements?

That said, Oxford comma all the way, and two spaces after a period to my dying day (I think it greatly improved readability for those of us with lifelong vision challenges—it provides visual landmarks within a body of text).

Now here are a couple I’ll throw into the mix. One, the misuse of the apostrophe in abbreviating years. I see 97’ to (erroneously) mean 1997, when it is (properly) the abbreviation for 97 feet (or minutes). Two, the misuse of ‘bring’ in place of ‘take.’ That makes my skin crawl, and it’s rampant in even traditional print and broadcast media.

I feel I am either peaking as a grumpy old man far too soon, or well on my way to ultimately defining the type.

[Bill Howatt]

I agree that language rules morph over the years, but who do you want to drive those changes?

Do you want Big Brother to give us Newspeak? Do we want government-mandated changes? Do we want digital media addicts to sift everything down to abbreviations and acronyms? Or do we want educated people who can analyze usage patterns to recommend improvements?

...
I don't think there is any Department of Lets Change Language Usage. It comes from what the general population, rightly or wrongly, considers convenient/makes sense. The digital media abbreviations likely stem from writing with a cell phone tiny keyboard. As much as I dislike it, I will use U R instead of You Are in that situation and I still capitalize such things even if it is a PITA.
Other things that changed to some degree because some people thought it made more sense is Thru for Through, Lite for Light and if you go back to what I'll call the birthplace of the English language, color is still spelled colour, neighbor is still spelled neighbour, ... .

[Curt Harms]

One of my gripes about online posting is that most forum software automatically removes the second space after periods even if you put it in.

I think we can thank the dominant word processor for that as well as other spelling and formatting 'differences'. Letters used to be formatted with the date right justified for instance. A way to be able to type what you want is to turn off autocorrect though that may take some hunting. Turning off autocorrect also turns off typo and misspelling indications which isn't great. I have found with Libre Office that if it highlights something that is spelled/formatted the way I want, just backspacing and typing it again leaves it alone.

[Cameron Wood]

In double checking myself for this thread, I learned that "o'clock" is a contraction of "of the clock".

[Kris Cook]

In double checking myself for this thread, I learned that "o'clock" is a contraction of "of the clock".

Believe it or not, I was working on a project and got a call from a truck driver; he wanted to know if he could unload the following day, Saturday. He asked what time we started and I told him 7. His response was "o'clock"? I said, yes, o'clock. Can't make this stuff up.

[Kris Cook]

Two spaces after periods is strictly an artifact of the era of monospace typefaces produced by typewriters. In either handwriting or in proper typesetting (as modern computers are capable of) the space after a period is slightly larger than a single space but smaller than two full single spaces. So if you're using a typewriter then yes, use two spaces. If you're using modern fonts on a computer then one that is properly kerned will look better and be more readable. Awkwardly large gaps between sentences are just ugly and jarring to the reader. It's right up there with using putty to fill in the gaps in your dovetails.

That may be, but that's what I learned in ninth grade typing class (yes on a typewriter) and it works for me. Old dogs, new tricks...

[Kris Cook]

Tom, what you describe is the Oxford comma, how I was taught, and still correct. As is two spaces after a period.

I agree that apostrophes are misused all the time - its '70s, not 70's - but I think the battle for thats been lost.

So what about "thats" - Sorry, couldn't resist.

[Jim Koepke]

I don't think there is any Department of Lets Change Language Usage. It comes from what the general population, rightly or wrongly, considers convenient/makes sense. The digital media abbreviations likely stem from writing with a cell phone tiny keyboard. As much as I dislike it, I will use U R instead of You Are in that situation and I still capitalize such things even if it is a PITA.
Other things that changed to some degree because some people thought it made more sense is Thru for Through, Lite for Light and if you go back to what I'll call the birthplace of the English language, color is still spelled colour, neighbor is still spelled neighbour, ... .

It used to be a person's strong point, forte (French for fort), was pronounced fort with the e on the end silent. Since so many people pronounced it "fortay" as in the musical expression, "forte," dictionaries now include the alternate pronunciation.

I used to be a draughtsman but was down graded to draftsman, then a drafter.
I used to eat doughnuts, but then they became the smaller donuts.
I drive through tunnels even though some incorrectly think they went threw a tunnel.

jtk

[Dave Anderson NH]

While I was still working I often had to correspond with customers in the far east. For the sake of clarity, I wrote my emails using only simple sentences. The chances of miscommunication increased exponentially if a compound or complex sentence was used. English is quirky enough that native speakers of most other languages can get really confused by our sentence structure.

[Bill Howatt]

While I was still working I often had to correspond with customers in the far east. For the sake of clarity, I wrote my emails using only simple sentences. The chances of miscommunication increased exponentially if a compound or complex sentence was used. English is quirky enough that native speakers of most other languages can get really confused by our sentence structure.

I hope you wrote your emails using all capitals to express shouting - after all, that is the usual way to deal with people whose mother tongue isn't English. :)

[Lee DeRaud]

I agree with Bill. the only thing that really matters is "[COLOR=#333333]whether or not the absence of a comma causes confusion or difficult reading."
A bit more important than that in some contexts:
509610

[Patty Hann]

Misuse (or no use ) of commas (I know some of you have seen this):

Let's eat, Grandma.
Let's eat Grandma.

And my favorite:

A panda eats shoots and leaves.
A panda eats, shoots, and leaves. (Probably occurred in a bar....)

[Jim Koepke]

English is quirky enough that native speakers of most other languages can get really confused by our sentence structure.

Great Britain, Australia and the United States, three great nations separated by a common language.

jtk

[Sam Force]

From my English class 50+ years ago

Woman without her man would be nothing

You decide how to punctuate :confused:

[Doug Garson]

From my English class 50+ years ago

Woman without her man would be nothing

You decide how to punctuate :confused:
Be careful, this could be your last comma. :cool:

[Rod Sheridan]

I really enjoyed this thread and showed it to my wife, who is from England.

She commented “ a bunch of Americans and Canadians demonstrating their lack of punctuation and spelling skills”��

We do tend to mangle the language, however fortunately in most cases we understand each other.

[Lee DeRaud]

From my English class 50+ years ago

Woman without her man would be nothing

You decide how to punctuate :confused:
Missing a period off the end, innit? :)

[Edward Weber]

I before E, except after C

Well science disproves that :rolleyes:

[Bill Dufour]

The little cannibal child asks his parents "what are we having for dinner Mom?" Does this need a comma or not?
Bill D

[Mark Hennebury]

Depends what they are having for dinner.

[Chris Parks]

I really enjoyed this thread and showed it to my wife, who is from England.

She commented “ a bunch of Americans and Canadians demonstrating their lack of punctuation and spelling skills”��

We do tend to mangle the language, however fortunately in most cases we understand each other.

From an Australian view and one who learnt spelling and grammar in the late 1950's into the 1960's I have to agree with your wife and I find some of the sentence construction and contraction used by Americans nearly beyond my understanding at times. I won't single out any poster(s) here, it is annoying to me but then that is my problem and no one else's. I had never heard of a double space after a full stop or period until I read this thread and I was a compositor in the printing trade for many years so I guess it is an American thing.

[Mark Hennebury]

If you want to hear people mangle English, go to England! With their three-class education system you get quite a wide variation in education; For instance at my school they taught the males woodworking and metalworking, cooking and home economics for the females. I sincerely doubt that old king Charles was schooled in timber conversion, joinery and metalworking like I was.

In England working class people were taught at working class schools, to be workers, to fill their place in society. ( I think John Lennon wrote a song about it) You don't need to know the correct spelling and punctuation to be a bricklayer or carpenter, you just need to learn your trade, and do it with sense of honor, integrity and respect. Understand that most of those that ridicule you for not knowing whether to use a colon or a semi-colon wouldn't have a house to live in or a car to drive if they had to build it themselves.

If your life is about public speaking and writing, where you put your comma may be extremely important to your self esteem and your audience's understanding of your information.

To some of us a sense of pride is a brick wall that is straight and plumb, to others a well placed comma. C'est la vie


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMewtlmkV6c

[Bill Howatt]

... I had never heard of a double space after a full stop or period until I read this thread and I was a compositor in the printing trade for many years so I guess it is an American thing.
Not so sure. From what I can tell, it came from the old days of fixed pitch fonts on typewriters and it was to make the sentence spacing more prominent given how some skinny characters like "i" left un-used space in the allotted space and resulted in an uneven presentation so 2 spaces made the sentences obvious. With proportional fonts available to computer word-processors this problem went away so a single space was adequate. It wasn't the first word-processor, but WordPerfect is now 41 years old.

[Bill Dufour]

I am 64 years old. We were taught double space after a period at the end of a sentence. iI do not think it applied if the period was at the end of a abbreviation. A English teacher asked at a staff meeting and everyone over age 45 or so had been taught double space. Those younger single space.
Did Selectric typewriters have variable spacing?
Bill D.

[Lee DeRaud]

Did Selectric typewriters have variable spacing?
Yes, at least as far back as 1966, but it was a separate (and much more expensive) model.
But IBM had traditional proportional-font typewriters long before that. Whether they were 'smart' enough to put a wider space after a period, I have no idea.