wipe on poly for kitchen use

[Jeff Monson]

Is minwax wipe on poly a good choice for my kitchen cabinets, I get a really smoot finish with this product after 5 coats and sanding inbetween, but is it durable enough for kitchen use? maple construction by the way.

[Frank Pellow]

Is minwax wipe on poly a good choice for my kitchen cabinets, I get a really smoot finish with this product after 5 coats and sanding inbetween, but is it durable enough for kitchen use? maple construction by the way.
Good and very timely question and I await the answer. I just used some wipe-on poly for the first time yesterday and today and, like you Jeff, I like the finish but I wonder about the durability. So far, I have applied three coats and I a wondering when should stop.

[Jeff Monson]

Frank, I've done an oak toy chest and 2 large oak displays with wipe on poly and the finish is smooth as glass, I apply 2 coats and then sand very lightly and quickly with my 5" dewalt and 220 grit, then 2 more coats and sand again, followed by 1 last coat and have been very impressed.

But I'm really unsure of use in a kitchen as I'm FAR from a finishing expert:D

[tod evans]

jeff, frank, polyurethane is really a tough finish but it is very dificult to repair if you damage it. personally i don`t use it because i have tried to repair it before and don`t want the headaches. but there are lots of folks who swear by it so take my opinion with a grain of salt.....02 tod

[Howard Acheson]

To answer your question, wipe-on varnish is the same a full strength varnish. It's just more highly thinned so it requires more coats to get the same film thickness. Figure that store bought wipe-on has about 1/2 the solids of full strength so two wipe-on coats is about equivilent to one full strength coat. Poly varnish is just fine for kitchen cabinets. I like non-poly varnish better as it is clearer and gives a nicer appearence.

Rather than purchase a wipe-on varnish, you can easily make your own by mixing your favorite varnish or poly varnish 50/50 with mineral spirits. If you are using a standard poly or non-poly varnish, you can use naphtha for slightly faster drying. But the "Fast Dry" polys do not work well with naphtha and mineral spirits is the best to use.

[Jeff Monson]

I emailed minwax just for the heck of it and here was their response,




Hi Jeff,

Thank you for your inquiry with the Minwax website. We appreciate you
taking the time to contact us.

Yes, I'd say the Wipe-On Poly is durable enough for kitchen use, but it
isn't the most durable finish in our product line. The Fast-Drying
Polyurethane is a more durable finish than Wipe-On Poly, but it is a
brush-on formulation. Typically 4-6 coats of Wipe-On Poly should be all you
need to apply.


Thank you again for your inquiry. If you have any other questions, please
reply with message history and I will respond as quickly as possible.

Sincerely,
Eric
Minwax Technical Support

[Howard Acheson]

Jeff, let me make these comment about the Minwax response.

First, there is little difference between their Minwax Fast Dry and their Wipe-on. The base varnish is the same. The wipe-on is just thinner. When the thinner has evaporated you are left with a thinner film of finish.

When you buy the Minwax Wipe-on you are, in effect, purchasing a watered down varnish. But Minwax is charging you almost the same price as their full strength product. As I recall, they then say on the label to apply three coats of the wipe-on. So, if you follow their directions you would think that there is no real cost difference--per coat--between their full strength and their wipe-on. However, when you use their wipe-on you are only applying 1/2 the film thickness. Of course, this means that the wipe-on will not be a durable as three coats of the full strength. What they didn't tell you is that if you applied six coats of the wipe-on it WOULD be a durable but, you would have used twice as much finish and doubled your cost to do it--and added to Minwax's profit.

That's the reason I recommend making your own wiping varnish by thinning full strength varnish 50/50 with mineral spirits. You still have to apply twice as many coats but you only are paying half as much for the finish.

There is much skullduggery in the world of finishes. In the case of Minwax, temper their responce by remembering that it is crafted by the same folks who produce a "Tung Oil Finish" that contains no true tung oil at all.

[Doug Shepard]

I've used the Minwax wipe-on poly on end tables (aprox 6 coats) and it's held up well. I use coasters when setting drinks on them, but even so I sometimes get liquid on the table due to condensation through the coasters (they're stoneware coasters) especially in the summer plus the occasional clumsy spill. The liquid has never soaked through the finish to the wood. After a wipe off it looks as good as new. Not sure how it would do if a hot pan or plate were set on it though.

[Frank Pellow]

Thanks for the feedback guys.

The furniture that I am finishing is a bedside table that I made of birch and birch plywood. I then applied one coat of mimwax oil-based pre-stain and two coats of Minwax oil-based Colonial Maple.

Based on the feedback that I recieved here, I then applied 6 coats of Minwax oil-based clear satin Wipe-On Poly and I used fine steel wool after coats 1, 3, and 5. The finish looks and feels really good! I will now leave the furniture for about three days before we use it.

[Jeff Monson]

Howard, Thats really good info. as wipe on poly is expensive, it make sense to make my own, just a couple of questions if you dont mind.

1. do I make it with any minwax brush on poly or is there something specific I should look for?

2. can I dilute 25% mineral spirits and get the same finish result in your opinion, that way I'd be putting on more product per coat, or is 50% the way to go.

thanks for the input!!

[Howard Acheson]

>> 1. do I make it with any minwax brush on poly or is there something specific I should look for?

You can use any oil based varnish or poly varnish.

>> 2. can I dilute 25% mineral spirits and get the same finish result in your opinion, that way I'd be putting on more product per coat, or is 50% the way to go.

You can dilute it to any extent you want. Most find that the 50/50 is about right giving good coverage and rapid drying. Adding more varnish will make if more difficult to wipe on. I recommend you start with 50/50 and get familier with it before you go changing the mixture.

As to wiping on, many do not go it right. The wiper should not be wringing wet. Rather is should be damp like the rag used by the kid at Denny's who wipes off your table. Use the same sort of circular motion. If you miss a spot do not go back--you'll get it on the next coat. The surface should not look wet and shiny. If it does, you used too much finish. Just get it on and go away for half an hour.

[Steve Schoene]

Howie

Question? If a wipe on has about half the solids content per unit of volume, and the coats are also thinner, doesn't it take more than two wipe on coats to equal one brushed on coat? I haven't messed with wipe-ons enough to get a good feel with this. Just curious since it seems to me that with wipe-on finishes its not about counting coats, but asking if the coat had achieve the look you were going for.

[Don Henthorn Smithville, TX]

I have been mixing my wipe on poly for years and find that there is little difference in the final product if you double the number of coats. I also find that I can get a good glossy finish if I use the glossy type and it is really smooth. Of course I don't always want a glossy finish so I use a different type..

[Howard Acheson]

Steve, you are undoubtably right. In reality, I generally equate five coats of homemade 50/50 wipe-on varnish with two brushed on coats of 10-15% thinned brushing varnish.

However, I like to keep things simple for the many new finishers. Five to six coats of wipe-on gives a very nice looking finish. It has a somewhat less build and therefore minimizes the "plastic" look of three coats of non-thinned varnish or poly varnish. Most folks put on too thick a coat when brushing varnishes. The belief that thicker equals better protection is not generally true. Two to three brushed-on coats is more than protective enough for almost all surfaces. Of course, mileage may vary and additional wiped-on coats may be necessary.

[Rob Blaustein]

Steve, you are undoubtably right. In reality, I generally equate five coats of homemade 50/50 wipe-on varnish with two brushed on coats of 10-15% thinned brushing varnish.

However, I like to keep things simple for the many new finishers. Five to six coats of wipe-on gives a very nice looking finish. It has a somewhat less build and therefore minimizes the "plastic" look of three coats of non-thinned varnish or poly varnish. Most folks put on too thick a coat when brushing varnishes. The belief that thicker equals better protection is not generally true. Two to three brushed-on coats is more than protective enough for almost all surfaces. Of course, mileage may vary and additional wiped-on coats may be necessary.
Lots of helpful info on this thread, particularly for a "new finisher" like me (more like "brand new finisher"). But I'm still confused about some things. It seems like it would be less time consuming to just apply 2-3 coats of unthinned finish rather than 5-6 of thinned. Is it an issue of technique, i.e. is it much easier to do a better job wiping on rather than brushing on a finish, so what you lose in the time of doing extra coats is made up for in ease of application or final look? And when you say minimizing the plastic look, I thought the idea was to build up the finish--does it end up looking worse that way?

[Howard Acheson]

Rob, wiping on a varnish finish has a number of advantages particularly for new finishers as brushing is a skill that requires instruction, practice and experience.

o Multiple coats can be applied in a day when using a thinned wiping varnish. Generally, a coat is dry to the touch in 30-90 minutes and a new coat can be applied.

o Little skill and practice is required to apply a wiped on finish.

o No chance of brush marks, drips or sags.

>> when you say minimizing the plastic look, I thought the idea was to build up the finish--does it end up looking worse that way?

"Looks" are a personal thing. But when you build up a thick finish of any clear finish, it begins to take on the appearence of something dipped into, or encased, with plastic. Some like this look while others like softer look. Things look even worse if the varnish is a poly varnish as it is less clear than a non-poly varnish and takes on a sort of cloudy look.

A good wiped on finish of six or so coats gives as much protection as it required and gives a nicer final look.

[Jim Becker]

And to "clarify" :) Howie's points....ALL of these finishes technically are "plastic", but some of them "look more like it" than others. It's quite subjective, but nearly everyone who understands finishes will agree that polyurethane varnishes generally don't look as good as alkyd or phenolic resin-based varnishes when it comes to clarity and enhancement of the natural reflections in the wood.

[Rob Blaustein]

Rob, wiping on a varnish finish has a number of advantages particularly for new finishers as brushing is a skill that requires instruction, practice and experience.

o Multiple coats can be applied in a day when using a thinned wiping varnish. Generally, a coat is dry to the touch in 30-90 minutes and a new coat can be applied.

o Little skill and practice is required to apply a wiped on finish.

o No chance of brush marks, drips or sags.

>> when you say minimizing the plastic look, I thought the idea was to build up the finish--does it end up looking worse that way?

"Looks" are a personal thing. But when you build up a thick finish of any clear finish, it begins to take on the appearence of something dipped into, or encased, with plastic. Some like this look while others like softer look. Things look even worse if the varnish is a poly varnish as it is less clear than a non-poly varnish and takes on a sort of cloudy look.

A good wiped on finish of six or so coats gives as much protection as it required and gives a nicer final look.

Thanks! Looks like wipe-on for me. Now remember that piece by Minich in FWW several months ago that compared wipe-on finishes--the one in which Minwax poly came out on top? I think that compared both poly and non-poly finishes didn't it--isn't that kind of comparing apples to oranges? I can't recall--did he make the point that Jim makes about giving up the look of alkyd or phenolic resin-based varnishes in favor of the protection afforded by poly. Is that the trade-off?

[Corey Hallagan]

I like to make my own mix as well. On the first coat I work it in a rubbing circular motion let stand for a while and then wipe off what is left. I do this until the wood won't drink up the finish any more. For some projects that I want a satin sheen then I add one more final coat and buff. For a high gloss finish I would then apply several coats in the same manner that you see "Norm" using alot on his show.
Corey

[Howard Acheson]

Rob, everything is a trade-off in finishing and finishes. Yes, poly is slightly more scratch resistant than non-poly varnishes but it's appearence suffers sligthly as a result. A good meduim oil varnish like Waterlox Original Gloss or Satin is virtually identical to most consumer grade poly varnishes in toughness. But, the Waterlox will look much nicer. IMO, there are few places where I would specifically opt for a poly varnish. Things like everyday kitchen tables in a household with kids or an entry way tabletop where car keys are thrown come to mind. Almost every other surface can be non-poly varnish.

The FWW write up was garbage and universally condemned. The products chosen, test method and results were fatally flawed.

I think I have published this before on this forum but here is something that should help. A friend of mine put it together years ago and it has worked well for many.

QUOTE

There are a number of suggested application regimens that are totally subjective. The number of coats in a given day, the % of cut on various coats, which coat to sand after, when to use the blade and a whole host of other practices are all minor differences between finishers. There are some things that I consider sacred when applying a wipe-on finish.

If you are making your own wipe-on the mix is scientific - thin. I suggest 50/50 with mineral spirits because it is easier to type than any other ratio and easy to remember.

The number of coats in a given day is not important. Important is to apply a wet coat with an applicator and merely get it on. Think of a 16 year old kid working as a busboy at Denny's you have sent over to wipe off a table. The applicator should be wet but not soaked. The applicator can be a paper towel, half a T-shirt sleeve or that one sock left after a load of washing. Get it on then leave it alone. The surface should not be glossy or wet looking. If you have missed a spot, ignore it - you will get it on the next coat. If you try and fix a missed spot you will leave a mark in the finish.

Timing for a second coat involves the pinkie test. Touch the surface with your pinkie. If nothing comes off you are ready for another coat. If was tacky 5 minutes ago but not now, apply your next coat just as you applied the previous coat. Remember, you are wet wiping not flooding. After applying the second coat, let it fully dry for 48 hours. Using 320 paper and a sanding block ligthtly sand the surface flat. Now, begin applying more coats. Do not sand between coats unless you have allowed more than 24 hours to elapse since the prior coat. The number of coats is not critical - there is no critical or right number to apply. For those who need a rule, four more coats on non-critical surfaces or six more coats on surfaces that will get abraded seems to work.

After your last coat has dried at least over night you will have boogers in the surface. You should not have marks in the surface because you ignored application flaws. You may have dust, lint and, if you live in Texas, bug legs. Use a utility knife blade at this point. Hold it between your thumb and forefinger, near the vertical, and gently scrape the surface. Gentle is the important word - no harder than you would scrape your face. If you start scraping aggressively you will leave small cut marks in the surface. After you have scraped to the baby butt stage gently abrade the surface with 320 dry paper or a gray ScotchBrite. Clean off the surface. Now, leave the area for two hours and change your clothes. Apply your last coat with a bit more care than the previous coats and walk away.

An anal person is going to have a tough time with this process. Missed spots have to be ignored. Wet wipe, don't flood. Scraping to babies butt smooth means scraping no harder than scraping a babies butt. Ignoring any of these will leave marks that are tough to get out. Getting these marks out requires some agressive sanding to flatten out the surface and starting over.

Jim Kull

END QUOTE

Finally, It works better to use a gloss varnish for all coats except the last. The flatteners in semi-gloss and satin tend to rapidly fall out of suspension when the finish is highly thinned. If you want a non-gloss finish, use it only on the final coat or two and be sure to stir the material frequently or you will end up with cloudy streaks.

[Rob Blaustein]

Thanks Howard, very helpful. That does look familiar, but it's always good to see it again. So when shopping for finishes, if one likes a satin sheen, then it sounds like one should plan on buying both gloss and satin, but only buy about 1/4 as much satin.

This may be a bit off topic, but is the sanding in between coats of wipe on poly done dry? I've seen references to wet sanding (using mineral spirits?)--when is that done?

[Howard Acheson]

>> is the sanding in between coats of wipe on poly done dry?

Rob, between coat sanding is not required when using a wipe-on varnish. The only sanding is after the first two coats and the objective is to flatten the surface. After that just apply a new coat as soon as the prior coat is dry to the touch. You only have to sand for adhesion if you can not recoat within 10-12 hours.

Sanding between coats is done with dry 320 paper. Wet sanding is something you might do as part of "finishing the finish".