Do self driving cars tailgate

[Bill Dufour]

Cars with self driving should react faster to the car ahead braking. So do they still follow the following distance rules recommended for humans. Like one car length for every ten miles per hour etc. Or because they are so much better drivers do they just tailgate as close as possible and annoy the human drivers in front of them.
Bill D

[Prashun Patel]

You can set the following distance.

[Doug Garson]

You can set the following distance.
And my guess is, if you set it too close, the system will override your input and keep a safe distance.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

My brother is (was) a sports car enthusiast. He had several little light cars: MG midget and B, Lotus Europa, Sabb Sonnet, various Triumphs, VW Karman Ghia, ... He used to love to get behind a semi real close and let it pull us along. I was often his passenger. I still get the hebbie jeebies when I approach a semi and remember those rides. I have accidentally gotten into the bubble behind a semi in the Prius. It drafts almost as well as the Sabb and the Lotus. Most semi's have cameras in the back these days.

[roger wiegand]

You can set the following distance, but at least the Tesla Autopilot (glorified TACC, not FSD) won't let you get as close as is normal practice in Boston traffic. You can spot the guys using self driving, they have a stream of cars cutting in front of them because of the gigantic space left open. I think the closest setting approximates the one car length per 10 mph rule.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Boston and its outskirts is where I became re-familiarized with drafting. Every one going 80 MPH or more. Re-familiarized against my will. It is impossible to keep space open in front in Boston traffic. I don't like it.

[Dick Strauss]

Hondas allow you to set the follow distance.

Networked caravanning could save upwards of 40% if the vehicle in front has a large frontal surface area. All vehicles would act as one braking at the same time (within the latency specs of connection) since they are networked together. Under most circumstances, the savings would be 25-30% with improved safety over the typical driver. The more cars and the more time the caravan stays intact, the better the overall efficiency of all vehicles within the caravan.

[Jim Koepke]

Cars with self driving should react faster to the car ahead braking. So do they still follow the following distance rules recommended for humans. Like one car length for every ten miles per hour etc. Or because they are so much better drivers do they just tailgate as close as possible and annoy the human drivers in front of them.
Bill D

I haven't heard the "one car length of every ten MPH" in a long time. Most people are better at counting of two seconds (or three) than the are at judging distance.

It is likely if the self driving cars followed too close there would be a lot of opportunists exploiting this to create income from law suits.

In San Francisco protesters are disabling the driverless cars > https://www.npr.org/2023/08/28/1196283050/protesters-armed-with-traffic-cones-are-immobilizing-driverless-cars

jtk

[Doug Garson]

It is likely if the self driving cars followed too close there would be a lot of opportunists exploiting this to create income from law suits.

jtk
Not sure I follow your logic here.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

https://www.npr.org/2023/08/28/1196283050/protesters-armed-with-traffic-cones-are-immobilizing-driverless-carsjtk

Thats a spooky and intriguing news story. I have a friend who's job includes being a member of the NPR staff. I trust her.

[Dick Strauss]

I

In San Francisco protesters are disabling the driverless cars > https://www.npr.org/2023/08/28/1196283050/protesters-armed-with-traffic-cones-are-immobilizing-driverless-cars

jtk

That is a funny story! I suspected they were going to surround the car with cones but one cone does the trick. I'm guessing it messes with their lane departure cameras like those that sometimes have to be recalibrated after windshield replacement.

[Dick Strauss]

In a networked caravan, if your network isn't known to be up to snuff, you can't join the party. You'll have to wait to join another one that more closely matches your network parameters. If you have low latency, you can afford closer following distances and achieve higher efficiency. As your latency increases, you have to increase following distance and lose efficiency. At some point, you won't be allowed to caravan until you fix your network issue.

[Bill Dufour]

Several decades ago San Francisco got some new trolley busses. teen age gangs soon found they had big off switches on the side behind a unlocked door. They would run out at a stop and switch off the bus. Then they climb aboard and rob all the folks on board. The Muni system soon added a lock to that access door.
Bill D

[Jim Koepke]

Not sure I follow your logic here.

Some opportunist might "allow" (or cause) a rear ender by a driverless car in the hopes of collecting a nice settlement.

Surely the lawyers at the companies trying to get more driverless cars out on the streets have explained this to the designers.

I moved away from the San Francisco area 15 years ago and I still get news alerts when a driverless car has a problem on the streets of San Francisco.

jtk

[Doug Garson]

Some opportunist might "allow" (or cause) a rear ender by a driverless car in the hopes of collecting a nice settlement.

Surely the lawyers at the companies trying to get more driverless cars out on the streets have explained this to the designers.

I moved away from the San Francisco area 15 years ago and I still get news alerts when a driverless car has a problem on the streets of San Francisco.

jtk

I guess some idiots might try that but realistically you probably have a greater chance of ending up with long term pain than big money. I know a few people who have been involved in relatively minor accidents and spent years taking physiotherapy to fully recover. None of them got big payouts but of course our legal system probably isn't as easily abused. Plus I'd be willing to bet self driving cars are full of cameras and sensors that could be used to prove what really happened or better yet avoid the accident. If you wanted to try getting rear ended so you could sue you'd be better off looking for someone texting than looking for a driverless car.

[Warren Lake]

cant see a thing like that tailgating, be like programming bad habits in. What did they use in the Jetsons?

[Brian Elfert]

They aren't going to tailgate as long as we still have human drivers on the road. It still takes time to respond if the vehicle in front slows down or similar. A few decades from now we may have networked vehicles that all work together to notify the surrounding cars that they are slowing down.

[Curt Harms]

Boston and its outskirts is where I became re-familiarized with drafting. Every one going 80 MPH or more. Re-familiarized against my will. It is impossible to keep space open in front in Boston traffic. I don't like it.

Boston - where driving is a contact sport.

[Doug Garson]

Remember also that a safe following distance is highly dependent on reaction time and a machine constantly monitoring the distance and the speed of the car being followed will consistently react faster than an average driver who is distracted by any number of things like talking to a passenger, looking at roadside billboards, changing the station on their radio not to mention texting on their phone. So a self driving car should be able to safely follow another car at a much closer distance even without networking.

[Cameron Wood]

I decided that driverless cars was a flawed concept when a TV piece showed how they were programmed to keep the same distance from vehicles in front and behind.
It had an illustration showing a multi-lane highway filled with cars, all with the same rather small space between them. If one car had a problem, all would be involved because there was no room to maneuver or escape.

[Lee DeRaud]

I decided that driverless cars was a flawed concept when a TV piece showed how they were programmed to keep the same distance from vehicles in front and behind.
It had an illustration showing a multi-lane highway filled with cars, all with the same rather small space between them. If one car had a problem, all would be involved because there was no room to maneuver or escape.
How is that different from a normal rush-hour freeway commute?
(So very glad I'm retired and don't have that problem...)

[Doug Garson]

How is that different from a normal rush-hour freeway commute?
(So very glad I'm retired and don't have that problem...)
No one's honking their horn. :D

[Cameron Wood]

How is that different from a normal rush-hour freeway commute?
(So very glad I'm retired and don't have that problem...)


I think it's different because it's by design- to fill up any available space, rather than a worst case situation (the commute).

[Kris Cook]

My brother is (was) a sports car enthusiast. He had several little light cars: MG midget and B, Lotus Europa, Sabb Sonnet, various Triumphs, VW Karman Ghia, ... He used to love to get behind a semi real close and let it pull us along. I was often his passenger. I still get the hebbie jeebies when I approach a semi and remember those rides. I have accidentally gotten into the bubble behind a semi in the Prius. It drafts almost as well as the Sabb and the Lotus. Most semi's have cameras in the back these days.

Was working in Aspen, CO back in the early 80s and came out of Glenwood heading for home in Grand Junction. Got behind a semi and got on his tail in my boss's Datsun pickup drafting at about 80. I think I remember passing another semi before him with the same logo on the trailer (remembered later...). I was back there for a while so pretty sure he didn't see me in his mirrors. Anyway, he locked up his trailer brakes - like smoked them. I didn't have time to hit the brakes - cranked the wheel and somehow missed the ICC bar. Went around him and never looked back. The things we survived in our youth...

[Jim Koepke]

Plus I'd be willing to bet self driving cars are full of cameras and sensors that could be used to prove what really happened or better yet avoid the accident.

If the self driving car was tailgating, any recorded video would probably make the case for the plaintiff of the maker not properly programming the vehicle to follow at a safe distance.

Also see > https://probinskylaw.com/2019/02/rear-end-collisions-slammed-brakes/


While you may think the accident should be the lead driver's fault for irresponsibly slamming on their brakes, in nearly 100% of cases the rear driver is determined to be at fault. Every driver on the road is responsible for maintaining a safe distance between themselves and the car in front of them.

It is the legal impact of tailgating that makes me thing the engineers and designers of self driving cars do their best to avoid such liability.

jtk

[Alan Lightstone]

Boston - where driving is a contact sport.
Or "Turn Signals are a Sign of Weakness".

I remember when I lived in Boston, the first advice I got on the first day of college was when the light turns red, let the first three cars run the light, then you can cross. Saved my life many times.

[Doug Garson]

If the self driving car was tailgating, any recorded video would probably make the case for the plaintiff of the maker not properly programming the vehicle to follow at a safe distance.

Also see > https://probinskylaw.com/2019/02/rear-end-collisions-slammed-brakes/



It is the legal impact of tailgating that makes me thing the engineers and designers of self driving cars do their best to avoid such liability.

jtk


Brake checking, or suddenly braking when there is a car behind you, is illegal in most jurisdictions in North America. The act can cause considerable damage and put drivers at risk for severe injury or death. It can also lead to severe legal penalties in certain areas, such as fines, jail time, and license suspension.

So both tailgating and brake checking are illegal. I think most rear end collisions, even those involving tailgating, occur because the rear driver doesn't react fast enough when the lead driver brakes. In the case of a self driving car I think the reaction time is a fraction of a second while a human driver, especially if distracted, may take several seconds to react. So I agree the designers of self driving cars do there best to avoid the liability, and I think the likelihood of a self driving car being involved in a rear end collision is likely significantly lower than a car driven by the average driver.

[John Ziebron]

One of the thoughts I had is if a small critter, like a squirrel, starts across the road and stops most human drivers will brake hard or swerve to avoid it. I've actually seen several rear enders happen because of this situation. If a self driving car encounters this situation the poor animal will probably just get run over.

[ChrisA Edwards]

My new car records 360 video constantly for the last 20 seconds, either by default when a collision occurs or manually by me, when I see an incident.

I would imagine self driving cars will do the same thing to reduce liability.

Although this camera/sensor technology is great, it also makes cars with this equipment quite a bit more expensive to repair in the case of a small fender bender, which is driving up insurance premiums.

[Bill Dufour]

I guess tailgating is following to close for conditions. So a robot car can be much closer and still be perfectly safe.
Bill D

[roger wiegand]

Hey-- a new study just came out last week showing that Boston was the second safest city to drive in out of the largest 100 cities in the US. We do have some unusual conventions (like those cars turning left _will_ turn in front of you at the light), but mostly it's a problem for tourists. Regular Boston drivers know and follow the "rules", consistency of behavior is what's key to everyone being safe. Perhaps it's not for the faint of heart, but I prefer Boston commute traffic with its relentless pursuit of efficiency to what I've experienced elsewhere.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Hey-- a new study just came out last week showing that Boston was the second safest city to drive in out of the largest 100 cities in the US. We do have some unusual conventions (like those cars turning left _will_ turn in front of you at the light), but mostly it's a problem for tourists. Regular Boston drivers know and follow the "rules", consistency of behavior is what's key to everyone being safe. Perhaps it's not for the faint of heart, but I prefer Boston commute traffic with its relentless pursuit of efficiency to what I've experienced elsewhere.

It was challenging to get in and out of Boston this summer with the Sumner tunnel closed. Having out of state plates earned me several upraised open hand "what?" waves rather than a fist or finger gesture. I only got the "Moron" yell once, as I crept along.

I sure hated seeing the images of the pile-up in Texas.

[roger wiegand]

They teach the middle finger salute in driving schools here ;-)

[Jim Koepke]

I guess tailgating is following to close for conditions. So a robot car can be much closer and still be perfectly safe.
Bill D

Is this based on the supposed faster reaction time of a robot driver? The stopping distance when the brakes are applied will be the same whether it is done by a human or a robot.

From > https://www.travelers.com/resources/auto/travel/3-second-rule-for-safe-following-distance


The National Safety Council recommends a minimum three-second following distance.

Many years ago the California Highway Patrol recommended a two-second following distance.

Not sure why it was changed. I have noticed when someone is two-seconds behind me it appears they are too close. As an old school kind of guy, I like to keep at least two-seconds behind the vehicle ahead of me. Three seconds allows for less sudden braking and helps to keep those behind me from rear ending me.

An alert human driver can notice changing traffic conditions ahead of the car directly in front of them. Though I have seen a lot of tailgaters who don't and end up on the side of the road to avoid hitting the vehicle in front of them.

I wonder how well programmers have created anticipatory logarithms and what kind of sensors they have for detecting slow downs or brake lights ahead of the car they are behind.

What I would like to find is an effective way to get tailgaters to stop tailgating.

jtk

[Rick Potter]

I can tell you factually that driving a Tesla with the auto pilot on in traffic makes for a jerky ride, as the car will slow or even slam on the brakes if someone gets into your lane too close in front of you.

I don't turn it on during the Kamikaze rush hour times.

[Alan Lightstone]

I can tell you factually that driving a Tesla with the auto pilot on in traffic makes for a jerky ride, as the car will slow or even slam on the brakes if someone gets into your lane too close in front of you.

I don't turn it on during the Kamikaze rush hour times.
True, Rick. And that does drive me crazy at times. But it is always watching, and you, as a human, aren't. So, despite the flaws, I think it is much safer. Especially in traffic, so I always use it there. The FSD (Full self driving) does get better over time with updates, but it is clearly not ready for full autonomous driving. No system is yet. But given time....

[Doug Garson]

The FSD (Full self driving) does get better over time with updates, but it is clearly not ready for full autonomous driving. No system is yet. But given time....
Many human drivers aren't either. :cool:

[Lee DeRaud]

Many human drivers aren't either. :cool:
You misspelled "most"...

[Doug Garson]

You misspelled "most"...
Darn spellcheck. :D

[Lee DeRaud]

Many years ago the California Highway Patrol recommended a two-second following distance.

Not sure why it was changed.
Possibly because the average human driver is even worse at estimating time than they are at estimating distance?

[Doug Garson]

Possibly because the average human driver is even worse at estimating time than they are at estimating distance?
Lee, you spelled every wrong. :cool:

[Thomas McCurnin]

If they did, then I would hope they would start the grill and serve up some Brats and Beer.

[Jim Koepke]

If they did, then I would hope they would start the grill and serve up some Brats and Beer.

LOL!

jtk

[Chris Parks]

Along the same lines this discussion automated truck convoys have been trialled in Europe for a few years now Semi-automated truck convoys get green light for UK trials | Transport policy | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/aug/25/semi-automated-truck-convoy-trials-get-uk-go-ahead-platooning)

In Europe it is called platooning as explained here Volvo's Truck Convoy Successfully Completes Journey Through Europe | OEM Off-Highway (oemoffhighway.com) (https://www.oemoffhighway.com/electronics/smart-systems/automated-systems/press-release/12192611/volvos-truck-convoy-successfully-completes-journey-through-europe)

My car has Automatic Cruise Control and the distance can be set from the cars in front if needed. Under a speed that is walking pace in a line of traffic it will self steer and keep its position in the lane relative to the other cars around it without driver input. At higher speeds if the lane keeping is turned on it requires steering input from the driver at 13 second intervals or less to prove he or she is paying attention much like the deadman's handle in a train.

There was a thread on this subject some years and one of the forum members was working with a company that is exploring the possibility of cars talking to one another along with the car talking to traffic lights and other controls to increase the traffic flow etc in certain situations, this has also been trialled in Europe as well.

[Curt Harms]

There is a somewhat notorious road west of Philadelphia officially I-476 but known to locals as "The Blue route". One reason it's notorious is that 3 lanes become two for a few miles then back to 3. Who would ever have thought, when the road was being planned that this would be a bottleneck? Another is merging traffic from other busy local road. I don't drive it often but often enough that I've though that if vehicles had a means to sequence with one another traffic capacity would likely increase - some drivers are just SO SO important that courtesy and rules of the road don't apply to them. If there were an automated system perhaps capacity might increase, bent tin might decrease.

[John Goodin]

I rode on a full size tour bus through downtown Boston and the guide was quite the comedian. While I thought it was funny others were a little freaked out when he decided to purposely make a left hand turn from the right hand lane while telling jokes about the pedestrians. He made it the best tour I have ever been on.


Boston - where driving is a contact sport.

[Warren Lake]

When I read Volvo trucks then this comes to mind. Now dont any of you go trying this at home.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7FIvfx5J10

[Doug Garson]

When I read Volvo trucks then this comes to mind. Now dont any of you go trying this at home.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7FIvfx5J10
I think I pulled a groin muscle just watching it. :eek: