Help Deciding on Sliding Table Saw

[Josh Baldwin]

Hey everyone so I've seen posts about this, but most of them are 5 years+ old. I'm just wondering if anyone has an opinion on the best sliding table saw for about $10k.

I'm leaning towards the Felder K500s, but also considering the Minimax SC4E. I will mostly be using the saw for solid lumber and occasionally sheet goods. I build custom furniture, usually 1 piece per month on commission. I'm excited about straight line ripping and then using parallel guides to get perfect rips and of course all of the amazing cross cut capabilities of the slider.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. I've been speaking with reps from both companies and the prices are super similar so far.

[Paul J Kelly]

Josh,

I love my Felder slider. I would keep my eyes out for a late model used one also. Do you have access to 3 phase power? If so, that may open up for better values on the used market.

I found my five year old kappa 400 x-motion that was in near new condition for 1/3 of the new price. Used machine prices seem to be getting more reasonable.

Either way, I think the sliders are what felder does best.

PK

[Josh Baldwin]

Josh,

I love my Felder slider. I would keep my eyes out for a late model used one also. Do you have access to 3 phase power? If so, that may open up for better values on the used market.

I found my five year old kappa 400 x-motion that was in near new condition for 1/3 of the new price. Used machine prices seem to be getting more reasonable.

Either way, I think the sliders are what felder does best.

PK

Hey Paul thanks for the info. Single phase power is all I have unfortunately. Great to hear about your Felder. I have a hammer jointer/planer that has been mostly great, although the calibration was ridiculous. But of course I'm assuming Felder is much higher quality than Hammer.

[Aaron Inami]

I have operated both Felder and Minimax sliding table saws at this level. Between the K500S and the SC4E, I think it's somewhat of a wash. That being said, there are some differences to be aware of.

Minimax SC4E points
- Minimax comes stock with a scoring motor and it runs all the time with the main motor.
- single phase 4.8HP main motor is a little more powerful than the Felder 4HP single phase
- Has an American standard 5/8" size for saw arbor which means you have an extremely large selection of blades to choose from.
- Uses the standard 3/4" t-slot in the slider, which means you can just plop in a normal Incra miter gauge or some other gauge/jig/clamp.
- A very nice DRO kit is available for the crosscut fence at a reasonable price: https://www.proscale.com/products/industry-applications/woodworking-cabinets/907-3037-001/

Felder K500S points
- Felder does have an option for a separate scoring motor, which I highly recommend, but it does cost extra. It has it's own power switch so it can be off. I would highly recommend you get a scoring motor regardless.
- Felder uses a non-standard t-slot. My Felder K700S t-slot is 0.82" which means it's useless except for Felder clamps/jigs (and they are extremely expensive!).
- It uses the Euro sized 30mm saw arbor with two pins, which means you need special saw blades (they are available but not as widespread). I would recommend the Tenryu blades here as they are excellent.
- The overhead saw guard option on the Felder is awsome, but very expensive (I think it's an $1100 option).
- To me, I think the Felder X-roll table works and feels just a little bit better, but this is probably a small thing.
- No DRO options for the crosscut fence unless you fabricate your own (which can be challenging if you don't have metal working fabrication experience).

If I were to have to choose between those two options, I would probably choose the Minimax just because of the crosscut fence DRO kit. I have found that you be off by up to 1/16" when using a non-DRO flipstop. Actually, many of my cuts are off by 1/32" because you need to be directly above the hairline indicator when setting the fence and it's pretty much impossible to do this. If this doesn't bug you, then fine, but I think a crosscut DRO is a mandatory item.

If you could find a used Felder K700S that not more than 5-6 years in good condition, I would seriously consider that. The K700S line is a significant step up and improvement, but everything is also more expensive at this level, so be aware. With the K700S, you have a much better crosscut fence and overall machine. Some of these K700S will include the Felder crosscut DRO. However, if the fence has a non-DRO flipstop, you can get the Lamb Toolworks DRO flipstop for around $1500-1600 (depending).

[Richard Coers]

I had a Griggio when I ran my business, and a Felder at a job latter in my working career. In my home shop I have a Minimax Lab 30. They really don't work that well for the way I work now. I really only use the rip fence about once a month. Considering the foot print needed to use those things, I just don't get the appeal in a small shop. I know my opinion will not be popular here, but I find I have to adapt to it too often. I've never liked the stock rip fences. I adapted a Biesmeyer to the Felder and was much happier. I don't like those tall aluminum rip fences. You don't have to tell me other options and accessories to set ripping widths I could use. Just not for me.

[Mick Simon]

Hi Josh,
I agree with Aaron's comments with one small correction. The SC4e does not come standard with a scoring motor. It comes standard with a belt driven scoring unit, including the blade.
I've owned the SC4e for about 3 years and use it for exactly what you've described as your intended uses. I frequently find myself wondering why I waited so long to buy one. I have a good friend with the K700S and can also say it's a fine machine. You won't be unhappy with either, iMO.

[Malcolm McLeod]

I have the SC4E w/ no regrets; speed and accuracy were a revelation (vs. Jet CS).
Perhaps you've seen this one: https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?305046-FS-Minimax-SC4E-San-Antonio-TX

Felder and Altendorf reps had no time for me or my silly questions.

[Aaron Inami]

Hi Josh,
I agree with Aaron's comments with one small correction. The SC4e does not come standard with a scoring motor. It comes standard with a belt driven scoring unit, including the blade.

Interesting. SCM's product picture shows a separate scoring motor, but the fine print says that it's an option.

https://www.scmgroup.com/en_US/scmwood/products/joinery-machines.c884/sliding-table-saws.896/minimax-sc-4e.663

[Josh Baldwin]

I have operated both Felder and Minimax sliding table saws at this level. Between the K500S and the SC4E, I think it's somewhat of a wash. That being said, there are some differences to be aware of.

Minimax SC4E points
- Minimax comes stock with a scoring motor and it runs all the time with the main motor.
- single phase 4.8HP main motor is a little more powerful than the Felder 4HP single phase
- Has an American standard 5/8" size for saw arbor which means you have an extremely large selection of blades to choose from.
- Uses the standard 3/4" t-slot in the slider, which means you can just plop in a normal Incra miter gauge or some other gauge/jig/clamp.
- A very nice DRO kit is available for the crosscut fence at a reasonable price: https://www.proscale.com/products/industry-applications/woodworking-cabinets/907-3037-001/

Felder K500S points
- Felder does have an option for a separate scoring motor, which I highly recommend, but it does cost extra. It has it's own power switch so it can be off. I would highly recommend you get a scoring motor regardless.
- Felder uses a non-standard t-slot. My Felder K700S t-slot is 0.82" which means it's useless except for Felder clamps/jigs (and they are extremely expensive!).
- It uses the Euro sized 30mm saw arbor with two pins, which means you need special saw blades (they are available but not as widespread). I would recommend the Tenryu blades here as they are excellent.
- The overhead saw guard option on the Felder is awsome, but very expensive (I think it's an $1100 option).
- To me, I think the Felder X-roll table works and feels just a little bit better, but this is probably a small thing.
- No DRO options for the crosscut fence unless you fabricate your own (which can be challenging if you don't have metal working fabrication experience).

If I were to have to choose between those two options, I would probably choose the Minimax just because of the crosscut fence DRO kit. I have found that you be off by up to 1/16" when using a non-DRO flipstop. Actually, many of my cuts are off by 1/32" because you need to be directly above the hairline indicator when setting the fence and it's pretty much impossible to do this. If this doesn't bug you, then fine, but I think a crosscut DRO is a mandatory item.

If you could find a used Felder K700S that not more than 5-6 years in good condition, I would seriously consider that. The K700S line is a significant step up and improvement, but everything is also more expensive at this level, so be aware. With the K700S, you have a much better crosscut fence and overall machine. Some of these K700S will include the Felder crosscut DRO. However, if the fence has a non-DRO flipstop, you can get the Lamb Toolworks DRO flipstop for around $1500-1600 (depending).

Hey Aaron thanks for all the info, it's a huge help. I do like the fact that the Minimax can accept a broader range of accessories for sure. I planned on building an F&F jig or buying a set of nice DRO parallel guides like the Lamb Toolworks, but I bet I can get nicer and cheaper clamps for the Minimax, etc.

[Josh Baldwin]

I had a Griggio when I ran my business, and a Felder at a job latter in my working career. In my home shop I have a Minimax Lab 30. They really don't work that well for the way I work now. I really only use the rip fence about once a month. Considering the foot print needed to use those things, I just don't get the appeal in a small shop. I know my opinion will not be popular here, but I find I have to adapt to it too often. I've never liked the stock rip fences. I adapted a Biesmeyer to the Felder and was much happier. I don't like those tall aluminum rip fences. You don't have to tell me other options and accessories to set ripping widths I could use. Just not for me.

Hey Richard I totally get that. I think for me I'm looking to never use the rip fence and I agree the aluminum ones they come with don't look great for traditional ripping. My goal is to only use the slider for all of these operations with parallel guides/F&F jigs. I only mill lumber for 1 or 2 days a month for a job and I know I can get perfect results with this method vs what I normally get which is very good results with the traditional ripping method. But it certainly will take an extra 30 minutes or so for all of the rips vs the traditional method.

[Josh Baldwin]

I have the SC4E w/ no regrets; speed and accuracy were a revelation (vs. Jet CS).
Perhaps you've seen this one: https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?305046-FS-Minimax-SC4E-San-Antonio-TX

Felder and Altendorf reps had no time for me or my silly questions.

Hey Malcolm thanks for the info. Do you have any particular accessories or add ons with your SC4E that you would recommend? Did you deal with Sam for the purchase or someone else? The only thing really holding me back from the Minimax is that I've read so many horrible things about delivery problems, lack of customer service, technicians, etc. I don't think Felder is amazing in this category either, but I do know I can always get someone on the phone. I'm hoping maybe Minimax has improved over the years though and maybe they're pretty good now.

[Erik Loza]

Both are excellent machines. If I were shopping for a single-phase slider for my own shop, I would buy a Felder.

Good luck in your search.

Erik

[Jim Becker]

Both machines you cite are excellent. I'm in the SCM/Minimax camp and have an SC3C in my new shop building. (I had a 2005 eara S315WS in the old shop) What I like about the SC3C and the SC4C that you're considering is that they come with everything in a bundle when you buy the normal package. My saw is great and the difference between it and the SC4C is generally the stroke length. But I'm sure I'd be quite happy with the K500s, too.

[Warren Lake]

cant say I understand the fence comment. The generals I used had Besmeier frences and nothing is the SCM quality. You can lift them off. I rip conventional not with hans and franz and the SCM fence is way better.

[Aaron Inami]

Whichever saw you get, the absolute best clamping system is Mac's Air Clamps, but current pricing is somewhere between $2.5-3k and requires an air compressor. In the meantime, I would recommend these for sliding table clamps:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09KYBY6PN/

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0774X67G8/

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01H1WFNYC/

The Milescraft trackock kit includes t-slot bolts that fit in both the Minimax and Felder sliding tables. They connect perfectly with the Kreg benchclamps. You can get the cheaper Milecraft bench clamps, but they work like locking pliers and you constantly have to re-adjust them for different material heights. The Kreg auto-lock will clamp down on any material height. The 6" bench clamp will fit over the crosscut fence shown here (i put a couple of heatshrink tubes on the 6" to prevent dinging the crosscut fence):

509128


One caveat. I have found that the Kreg clamps will pull the material back about 1-2mm when clamping down (which makes this perfect for a forward clamp against the crosscut fence). If you are just using this as a rear clamp, I would advise pushing the wood against the crosscut fence while you clamp down so that the material doesn't shift. If you clamp down the front crosscut end first, the rear clamp will work just fine here and won't pull the wood back.

Minimax does have a heavy-duty concentric clamp similar to this Felder:
https://www.felder-group.com/en-us/shop/manual-workpiece-clamp-sc123939/eccentric-clamp-sp123941

Based on what I have seen, these clamps tend to push the material forward as you clamp down, which makes them a good "rear clamp", but I would not recommend using these for the front crosscut fence clamp. You can use one if you want, but they are extremely heavy and hard to handle. It's somewhat of a pain to adjust them and move them back-and-forth on the slider. It's so easy to loosen the kreg/milescraft kit and slide them back and forth for clamping.

[Jim Becker]

Aaron, the SC4C comes with a cam clamp for on the wagon "in the crate", but for additionals, those are nice options.

[Tom M King]

There's a good deal on one in the classifieds right now.

[Aaron Inami]

More details regarding crosscut fences.

All the Felder non-DRO fences have the flipstop on the left side. This means that the smallest cut you can make with this flip-stop is about 7". If you want to use the Kreg clamp over the crosscut fence, the smallest cut is about 10-1/2" before the flipstop assembly gets in the way of the clamp.

The stock fence for the K500 series is a shorter height fence that looks like a square aluminum extrusion. There is no DRO kit for this fence, but you -might- be able to jerry-rig the Proscale Minimax kit onto this fence. It will require modification of the DRO mounting plates as well as drilling/tapping hole into the stock Felder flipstop (and the fence needs to be at least 70"). Stock K500 fence "squarish" profile shown here:
509131


However, some people have gotten the larger K700 fence on their K500 series saws. This is a taller fence that has more of a trapezoidal shape:
509132


This larger K700 trapezoidal fence will support the Lamb DRO flipstop. Additionally, the Lamb DRO has the flip-stop on the right side which means you can make cuts down to 4" with this flip-stop. So, essentially, if you get Felder saw with a K700 style fence, you are golden for any Lamb DRO flipstop or parallel fence.

If you order a new K500S, I think it's pretty much a crapshoot as to which fence model you will actually receive.

The stock fence on the Minimax saws have the flip-stop on the right which also supports cuts down to around 4". You can get the Proscale DRO kit for the fence. However, the Lamb parallel fence will only work on some Minimax models. Many people have just bolted on an Incra LS Positioner to the Minimax slider support table for use as a parallel fence. You can see this in Micheal Robert's for-sale ad in the classifieds.

[Chris Parks]

More details regarding crosscut fences.

All the Felder non-DRO fences have the flipstop on the left side. This means that the smallest cut you can make with this flip-stop is about 7".

Yes but this can be overcome by not using the flip stop, instead use the rip fence to dimension the cut off to the required size and hold the material being cut in an F&F jig. I have owned my slider for over a decade and never used any clamps apart from an F&F jig. I took the long rip fence off the saw as it is a PIA if not needed for rips (which I rarely do) and I then put a short piece of the rip fence extrusion on the sliding head using it purely for measurement. I originally had a Wixey as a DRO but they are old technology these days so I added a Chinese DRO for under a $100 which is far more versatile.

Using a rip fence on a slider instead of ripping on the table (size permitting) is an idea that a lot of new owners carry over from cabinet saws. What I find most important is that the fence stops and rip fence be calibrated to cut the same at any given figure. DRO's can be added to the stock flip stops for very little money but that is a personal choice to be made by the owner.

[Josh Baldwin]

Whichever saw you get, the absolute best clamping system is Mac's Air Clamps, but current pricing is somewhere between $2.5-3k and requires an air compressor. In the meantime, I would recommend these for sliding table clamps:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B09KYBY6PN/

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0774X67G8/

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01H1WFNYC/

The Milescraft trackock kit includes t-slot bolts that fit in both the Minimax and Felder sliding tables. They connect perfectly with the Kreg benchclamps. You can get the cheaper Milecraft bench clamps, but they work like locking pliers and you constantly have to re-adjust them for different material heights. The Kreg auto-lock will clamp down on any material height. The 6" bench clamp will fit over the crosscut fence shown here (i put a couple of heatshrink tubes on the 6" to prevent dinging the crosscut fence):

509128


One caveat. I have found that the Kreg clamps will pull the material back about 1-2mm when clamping down (which makes this perfect for a forward clamp against the crosscut fence). If you are just using this as a rear clamp, I would advise pushing the wood against the crosscut fence while you clamp down so that the material doesn't shift. If you clamp down the front crosscut end first, the rear clamp will work just fine here and won't pull the wood back.

Minimax does have a heavy-duty concentric clamp similar to this Felder:
https://www.felder-group.com/en-us/shop/manual-workpiece-clamp-sc123939/eccentric-clamp-sp123941

Based on what I have seen, these clamps tend to push the material forward as you clamp down, which makes them a good "rear clamp", but I would not recommend using these for the front crosscut fence clamp. You can use one if you want, but they are extremely heavy and hard to handle. It's somewhat of a pain to adjust them and move them back-and-forth on the slider. It's so easy to loosen the kreg/milescraft kit and slide them back and forth for clamping.

Thanks for all the info on the clamps. I have that Milescraft clamp and it's great, but I definitely do experience the slight movement from the clamp. It's just not vertical enough of a motion. I'll look into those crazy expensive ones too, ha.

[Josh Baldwin]

There's a good deal on one in the classifieds right now.

Yea I did see that, but I'm in VA and it's in Texas. By the time I add freight I think it would only be about $2k less than brand new unfortunately. If I lived around there I'd grab it for sure.

[Warren Lake]

ripping off the fence is fast. Some sliders you have to be a contortionist to rip its not a comfortable stand position depending on what it has for carriage support. This slider im on is 54 cross cut, Hans and franz would be of no help for 8 foot ply edge or ripping 16 foot solid.

[Josh Baldwin]

More details regarding crosscut fences.

All the Felder non-DRO fences have the flipstop on the left side. This means that the smallest cut you can make with this flip-stop is about 7". If you want to use the Kreg clamp over the crosscut fence, the smallest cut is about 10-1/2" before the flipstop assembly gets in the way of the clamp.

The stock fence for the K500 series is a shorter height fence that looks like a square aluminum extrusion. There is no DRO kit for this fence, but you -might- be able to jerry-rig the Proscale Minimax kit onto this fence. It will require modification of the DRO mounting plates as well as drilling/tapping hole into the stock Felder flipstop (and the fence needs to be at least 70"). Stock K500 fence "squarish" profile shown here:
509131


However, some people have gotten the larger K700 fence on their K500 series saws. This is a taller fence that has more of a trapezoidal shape:
509132


This larger K700 trapezoidal fence will support the Lamb DRO flipstop. Additionally, the Lamb DRO has the flip-stop on the right side which means you can make cuts down to 4" with this flip-stop. So, essentially, if you get Felder saw with a K700 style fence, you are golden for any Lamb DRO flipstop or parallel fence.

If you order a new K500S, I think it's pretty much a crapshoot as to which fence model you will actually receive.

The stock fence on the Minimax saws have the flip-stop on the right which also supports cuts down to around 4". You can get the Proscale DRO kit for the fence. However, the Lamb parallel fence will only work on some Minimax models. Many people have just bolted on an Incra LS Positioner to the Minimax slider support table for use as a parallel fence. You can see this in Micheal Robert's for-sale ad in the classifieds.

Wow seems like a lot of choices I'll have to make here. The Incra option seems pretty amazing and much simpler/less expensive than 2 parallel guides. Do you think it stays 100% stable over it's length to ensure a parallel edge? Never used one before.

[Josh Baldwin]

Both machines you cite are excellent. I'm in the SCM/Minimax camp and have an SC3C in my new shop building. (I had a 2005 eara S315WS in the old shop) What I like about the SC3C and the SC4C that you're considering is that they come with everything in a bundle when you buy the normal package. My saw is great and the difference between it and the SC4C is generally the stroke length. But I'm sure I'd be quite happy with the K500s, too.

Yea the SCM definitely comes with a few more standard accessories. I think at this point it's just going to be price, because everyone says they're both great. Tough decisions! ha

[Chris Parks]

Why do you need clamps on a slider when your hands are nowhere near the blade? I must admit I have never understood the need and having sometimes worked in a commercial shop neither did they see a use for clamps. Admittedly the F&F jig is a clamp but nowhere like those offered by Mac.

[Kevin Jenness]

Why do you need clamps on a slider when your hands are nowhere near the blade? I must admit I have never understood the need and having sometimes worked in a commercial shop neither did they see a use for clamps. Admittedly the F&F jig is a clamp but nowhere like those offered by Mac.

I use clamps to keep panels flat on the table so the scoring blade contacts throughout the cut, to hold down stacks of veneer and to keep parts from shifting when not using a fence for positioning. Probably other tasks that don't come to mind right now.
509145

[Aaron Inami]

Josh Baldwin - okay, I just got off the phone with my buddy. He has a Minimax combo machine and also uses the Incra Positioner as a parallel fence:
509146

He has been extremely happy with this solution over time. He did say that knowing what he knows now, he would still choose this Incra Positioner as a parallel fence solution if he had to do it over again. The Incra Positioner and the Minimax support table are very stable and accurate for repeat measurements. This is an incredibly accurate parallel fence solution and it's cheaper at only about $300 or so. The Felder/Lamb parallel fence solutions are over twice as expensive.

However, there will be a variance on how straight the slider table edge is. In reality, there is no sliding table saw that has a 100% perfectly straight edge on the slider. I did a quick measurement on my K700S slider here. The dial indicator is placed exactly at the blade:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OddK3RtMyw

The video shows that the slider variance is 0.010" over the first 4-1/2 feet of travel, then it quickly drops down to 0.020" on the last bit of the table. That is 1/100" variance on the first four feet which is still extremely good in my opinion. You can only do so much when manufacturing an extruded aluminum piece that is 8 to 10 feet long. This is not the same as a cast iron surface that has been machine milled to .001" tolerances.

The same issue with variance would happen whether you used the Incra Positioner or the Lamb Toolworks DRO parallel fence. If you're picky, you will need to re-zero the fence whenever you move it back and forth. Otherwise, you can figure out the point on the table where the variance is in the middle and align it there. Then you would not really be off more than 1/100" at any position. Make sense?


Chris Parks - There are many ways to accomplish the same thing with these tools, which you have introduced discussion on. However, this thread is really not about that. The OP wants help in making a decision between two or more sliding table saws and my efforts here have been to try to describe the differences and option. For example, even though Josh has said that he will never really use the rip fence, I bet that he may find good use of it anyways. If you had a 40" board and needed a 5" piece cut, the best way is to adjust the rip fence to 5" and pull the aluminum fence back before the blade to use the rip fence as a stopper. Also, until he has made some accurate Fritz-n-Franz jigs, he will likely use traditional ripping anyways for rips less than 4-7" because of the minimum cut size of the crosscut fence flip-stop.

Everyone works differently. I do hear your experience from commercial work and many commercial shop workers will throw on sheets and run them through the slider without any clamping. If you or Josh feel comfortable doing that, then great. I, personally, have been very paranoid and careful over the years when working with this machinery. If you are not using a clamp and your hands are on the material, then your hands could very well be close to the blade. They could even be behind the blade which means instant injury when you run the piece through. This can happen to any experienced mature wood worker. Review this video as reference for an real example on how fast an injury could happen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86Z1Q3cf5iw

When I'm using the slider, I want to have the material clamped down so that my hands are not on the material or anywhere near the blade. I'll then use the outrigger table or side-handle on the slider to push the material through. When I build a Fritz-n-Franz jig, I will definitely have a handle on it. If my hand it on the "handle", then it's definitely not going to be behind the blade.

[Warren Lake]

If the fence is in the back position the material is pushed against it. If the fence is front and the operator is careless the material could come off the fence and thats not ideal. Ive not clamped anything so far front position but can see the value in it from safety

[Aaron Inami]

Clamping safety

Here's what working with sheet good looks like without a clamping system.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kks_hwEjfaY

You can see that his hands are relatively close to the blade. All it takes is being tired or distracted. We as humans are not perfect and an accident could happen any time (and has happened to several posters here on sawmill as well as FOG).

This guy's technique is actually okay, except for the fact that he's wearing gloves. I would be using a push-stick in this situation:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Gn6dF4ia4c

Here's an example of where clamping can still help with Fritz-n-Franz jigs. He did okay until the point where he knocked away the cut-off while the saw blade was still running! I wouldn't have my hand on top of the material while running across either.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fq2ftbU-Zp4

[Mike King]

The clamps aid in accuracy as the stock doesn't move. Before I got Mac's clamps, the stock would sometimes move which lead to inaccurate/non-square cuts. And with the clamps, I can use them for running the shaper as well.

Not inexpensive, but they were definitely a major upgrade to my equipment and resulted in a major upgrade in my work and productivity.

Brian Lambs digital stop and his parallel guides are exceptional upgrades as well.

Mike

[Josh Baldwin]

Josh Baldwin - okay, I just got off the phone with my buddy. He has a Minimax combo machine and also uses the Incra Positioner as a parallel fence:
509146

He has been extremely happy with this solution over time. He did say that knowing what he knows now, he would still choose this Incra Positioner as a parallel fence solution if he had to do it over again. The Incra Positioner and the Minimax support table are very stable and accurate for repeat measurements. This is an incredibly accurate parallel fence solution and it's cheaper at only about $300 or so. The Felder/Lamb parallel fence solutions are over twice as expensive.

However, there will be a variance on how straight the slider table edge is. In reality, there is no sliding table saw that has a 100% perfectly straight edge on the slider. I did a quick measurement on my K700S slider here. The dial indicator is placed exactly at the blade:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OddK3RtMyw

The video shows that the slider variance is 0.010" over the first 4-1/2 feet of travel, then it quickly drops down to 0.020" on the last bit of the table. That is 1/100" variance on the first four feet which is still extremely good in my opinion. You can only do so much when manufacturing an extruded aluminum piece that is 8 to 10 feet long. This is not the same as a cast iron surface that has been machine milled to .001" tolerances.

The same issue with variance would happen whether you used the Incra Positioner or the Lamb Toolworks DRO parallel fence. If you're picky, you will need to re-zero the fence whenever you move it back and forth. Otherwise, you can figure out the point on the table where the variance is in the middle and align it there. Then you would not really be off more than 1/100" at any position. Make sense?


Chris Parks - There are many ways to accomplish the same thing with these tools, which you have introduced discussion on. However, this thread is really not about that. The OP wants help in making a decision between two or more sliding table saws and my efforts here have been to try to describe the differences and option. For example, even though Josh has said that he will never really use the rip fence, I bet that he may find good use of it anyways. If you had a 40" board and needed a 5" piece cut, the best way is to adjust the rip fence to 5" and pull the aluminum fence back before the blade to use the rip fence as a stopper. Also, until he has made some accurate Fritz-n-Franz jigs, he will likely use traditional ripping anyways for rips less than 4-7" because of the minimum cut size of the crosscut fence flip-stop.

Everyone works differently. I do hear your experience from commercial work and many commercial shop workers will throw on sheets and run them through the slider without any clamping. If you or Josh feel comfortable doing that, then great. I, personally, have been very paranoid and careful over the years when working with this machinery. If you are not using a clamp and your hands are on the material, then your hands could very well be close to the blade. They could even be behind the blade which means instant injury when you run the piece through. This can happen to any experienced mature wood worker. Review this video as reference for an real example on how fast an injury could happen:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86Z1Q3cf5iw

When I'm using the slider, I want to have the material clamped down so that my hands are not on the material or anywhere near the blade. I'll then use the outrigger table or side-handle on the slider to push the material through. When I build a Fritz-n-Franz jig, I will definitely have a handle on it. If my hand it on the "handle", then it's definitely not going to be behind the blade.

Thanks again for all the help with this. I think the incra option seems like the way to go. So you basically just have to buy the support table for the saw and then mount it to the support table? What size would you recommend? It looks like they have this one that's a table saw fence https://www.incrementaltools.com/INCRA_TS_LS_Rip_Fence_System_32_810mm_Capacity_p/ls32-ts.htm and then they have this one which is similar https://www.grizzly.com/products/incra-25-ls-positioner-fence-system/t20532?gad=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwysipBhBXEiwApJOcuzjLnMFFz6hboucotHRw ZHvXFkNrUhPMUl-At0gwWT3konT9SUzTmxoC_2UQAvD_BwE. Just trying to figure out exactly which setup to buy. Thanks

[Aaron Inami]

Hi Josh,

You don't need a full blown Incra fence system. I would just get the 25" Positioner:
https://www.incrementaltools.com/INCRA_LS_25_Range_Positioner_ONLY_p/ls25.htm

You could cut your own piece of wood block (like a 2" x 2" wood that is something like 5-10" long) and screw that to the end of the Positioner. Or mould your own bumper shape.

The Position mounting includes standard 1/4-20 t-slot bolts:
509147


You could buy the Incra right-angle fixture and pull off that tall fence to use (if you wanted a really tall fence):
https://www.incrementaltools.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=RAFJUMBO

You could buy this Veritas T-Slot track and chop it to the length you prefer:
https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/hardware/jig-and-fixture-parts/73519-veritas-quad-t-slot-track?item=13K1002

Alternatively, you could choose your own fence using 80/20 t-slot extrusions:
https://8020.net/framing-options/t-slotted-profiles.html

The 80/20 extrusions are priced per millimeter, so you could buy whatever length you want. The pricing for a 8" long piece can range from $15 to $30 (really cheap). Plus, you can get end-caps to make the fence look really clean:
https://8020.net/finishingyourframe/coverscaps.html

[Jim Becker]

Why do you need clamps on a slider when your hands are nowhere near the blade? I must admit I have never understood the need and having sometimes worked in a commercial shop neither did they see a use for clamps. Admittedly the F&F jig is a clamp but nowhere like those offered by Mac.

"Need" is relative...I do straight line ripping with my slider and by using the clamps, I insure a pristine, straight edge that's perfectly perpendicular to the face (material is flattened and thicknessed first) which means no need to go back to the jointer for the edges. Sometimes it's for safety when making an angled cut where there is no fence support. Etc. There's no need to use the clamps all the time, but they add to the options for putting material on the wagon and staying even further away from the blade or insuring a very clean and precise cut edge.

[Josh Baldwin]

Hi Josh,

You don't need a full blown Incra fence system. I would just get the 25" Positioner:
https://www.incrementaltools.com/INCRA_LS_25_Range_Positioner_ONLY_p/ls25.htm

You could cut your own piece of wood block (like a 2" x 2" wood that is something like 5-10" long) and screw that to the end of the Positioner. Or mould your own bumper shape.

The Position mounting includes standard 1/4-20 t-slot bolts:
509147


You could buy the Incra right-angle fixture and pull off that tall fence to use (if you wanted a really tall fence):
https://www.incrementaltools.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=RAFJUMBO

You could buy this Veritas T-Slot track and chop it to the length you prefer:
https://www.leevalley.com/en-us/shop/hardware/jig-and-fixture-parts/73519-veritas-quad-t-slot-track?item=13K1002

Alternatively, you could choose your own fence using 80/20 t-slot extrusions:
https://8020.net/framing-options/t-slotted-profiles.html

The 80/20 extrusions are priced per millimeter, so you could buy whatever length you want. The pricing for a 8" long piece can range from $15 to $30 (really cheap). Plus, you can get end-caps to make the fence look really clean:
https://8020.net/finishingyourframe/coverscaps.html

Awesome, yea I think if I can make it work I'd like to keep the gold theme going with that. What do you think about this instead of the right angle fixture? I just worry cuz that's only 10" long, which I guess should be more than enough for a reference, but for some reason it just doesn't feel like it, ha.

https://www.incrementaltools.com/INCRA_Pro_II_Joinery_Fence_p/jfence28.htm

[Aaron Inami]

You can attach that big long Pro-II joinery fence if you really want, but in my opinion, you really don't need a huge fence like this.

The idea of a parallel fence is to work in conjunction with the crosscut flip-stop. If you set the crosscut flip-stop at 10", it is very hard to setup the wood so that you are making a square cut. That is when you move/align the parallel fence at the rear of the piece and also set it to 10". Because you have to points of reference (crosscut flip-stop and parallel fence stop), you don't need a really long contact point.

The Lamb parallel fence uses a rounded stopper to allow for tapered cuts. For this scenario, a long fence on the parallel device won't work:
509154

The only real reason to have a long fence is if that "long fence" is the only reference point you have on a machine. Two examples are the table saw rip fence and a router table fence.


The 80/20 website does have black t-slot extrusions that would match the Gold Incra better.


Oh, one more thing. If you use a really long fence here, you better make darn sure the fence is mounted perfectly square to the blade. If it's not perfectly square, the front point of the fence could be a significant amount of distance different from the rear point of the fence. Ultimately, it's best to have as small of a contact point as possible.

[Brian W Evans]

Josh,

I have had an SC4E for about 7 years and am very happy with it.

I use the scoring blade pretty regularly, so don't overlook that as a feature you might want.

Something to watch out for is that my SC4E does NOT have a standard 3/4" slot in the sliding table. It's probably metric but it's darn close to 5/8". This isn't a big deal because the slider slides, obviously, so you don't want to be pushing things along - just lock them down to the sliding table and move the table. A piece of maple milled to the right size and attached to your jig squares things up and makes cuts repeatable. If a 3/4" slot is important to you, make sure you ask before you order.

The other thing is to make sure you look at all of the dimensions - slider extended all the way to the rear, all the way to the front, outrigger table attached, etc. - because sliders take up a huge amount of room. I'm lucky to have a whole garage bay for mine, but not much else happens there except maybe if I have the outrigger off.

Lastly, I can't remember the last time I cut a full sheet of something on the slider. I have done it, but I almost always use a track saw to cut close to final dimensions before moving to the slider to finish up. If you are not doing production work, I believe this is a better option.

[Jim Becker]

Brian, the slot in the wagon is most definitely metric, but it's easy to make fixtures that use it. I machined some material from scrap oak years ago to fit in there so I can fasten down custom fixtures when necessary. A simple captive nut with an appropriate sized fastener from above through the fixture works well. There's no '3/4" standard' on machines like this...

[Aaron Inami]

Brian, the slot in the wagon is most definitely metric, but it's easy to make fixtures that use it. I machined some material from scrap oak years ago to fit in there so I can fasten down custom fixtures when necessary. A simple captive nut with an appropriate sized fastener from above through the fixture works well. There's no '3/4" standard' on machines like this...

That's good to know. I stand corrected from my previous statements.

[johnny means]

Why do you need clamps on a slider when your hands are nowhere near the blade? I must admit I have never understood the need and having sometimes worked in a commercial shop neither did they see a use for clamps. Admittedly the F&F jig is a clamp but nowhere like those offered by Mac.
Straight lining rough lumber, cutting tapers, really thick material, holding jigs in place. I use clamps on the slider almost daily.

[Derek Cohen]

Coming in late ..

I like the Incra for a parallel guide. Mike Kreinhop did this (see my link below). I found the cost more than I could justify at the time, and so built a similar contraption. It works perfectly well, but the Incra would be better. What is important is the ability to move the parallel guide along the slider , as needed. Here is my version on a 1250mm Hammer K3 ...

https://i.postimg.cc/JrCBFn7z/4.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/SyMMV8hP/3.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Link to my website: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Powered%20Tools%20and%20Machinery/ParallelGuideMk3HammerK3.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Aaron Inami]

Josh - if you want to keep the gold Incra finish, I found that you can buy just the 18" fence part:

https://www.incrementaltools.com/IncraLOCK_Flip_Shop_Stop_Fence_18_p/flipfnc18.htm

This will connect right up to the Incra Positioner.

[Josh Baldwin]

Josh - if you want to keep the gold Incra finish, I found that you can buy just the 18" fence part:

https://www.incrementaltools.com/IncraLOCK_Flip_Shop_Stop_Fence_18_p/flipfnc18.htm

This will connect right up to the Incra Positioner.

Ok cool. So if I understood your last post smaller would be better for this position right? All along I thought we were talking about using the Incra Fence as a parallel reference to the blade, but I totally get what you're saying now by just using the incra as a 2nd point of reference parallel to the normal fence flip stop. This makes me wonder why we would need 2 parallel guides from Lamb or other companies. Is it really that much better than just using the crosscut or outrigger fence for 1 of the parallel guides?

[Josh Baldwin]

Coming in late ..

I like the Incra for a parallel guide. Mike Kreinhop did this (see my link below). I found the cost more than I could justify at the time, and so built a similar contraption. It works perfectly well, but the Incra would be better. What is important is the ability to move the parallel guide along the slider , as needed. Here is my version on a 1250mm Hammer K3 ...

https://i.postimg.cc/JrCBFn7z/4.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/SyMMV8hP/3.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Link to my website: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/Powered%20Tools%20and%20Machinery/ParallelGuideMk3HammerK3.html

Regards from Perth

Derek

Thanks for the info Derek. This looks great. Yea, I think maybe the Incra LS Positioner with a short fence and stop might be ideal.

[Aaron Inami]

Ok cool. So if I understood your last post smaller would be better for this position right? All along I thought we were talking about using the Incra Fence as a parallel reference to the blade, but I totally get what you're saying now by just using the incra as a 2nd point of reference parallel to the normal fence flip stop. This makes me wonder why we would need 2 parallel guides from Lamb or other companies. Is it really that much better than just using the crosscut or outrigger fence for 1 of the parallel guides?

If you are just cutting square pieces or rectangle pieces, then you don't need two parallel fences. You only need the crosscut flip-stop and one parallel fence.

The only reason why you would want two parallel fences is if you need to get angle cuts along the long edge of a board. Example is below where you are setting up two Lamb parallel fences at different positions. Each fence is set to a different distance from the blade. The board in yellow outline will be clamped down at an angle. The red line shows the cut line:
509162


This text is copied directly from the Lamb manual on their website as an example of how to do the above cut. This kind of thing requires a round stopper on the end of the parallel fence. You could not do this with the Incra positioner unless you built out an extended rounded stopper.

"For cutting specific angles a little math is involved. Again, set the Parallel Fences a
specific distance apart that will work on your material, lets say 20” in this example. We
want to cut a 5º angle, we use a calculator and find the tangent of the angle we want to
cut, 5º, the tangent is .0874886 and times that by the distance between the end stops,
which is 20”, so the value is 1.7497”, weʼll round to 1.75”. So one stop will get set 1.75”
closer/further than the other and you will get a cut at exactly 5º. The calculation is as
follows: tan A x B = C, where A is your angle, B is the center to center distance, and C
will be the difference the stops need to be set from each other."

[Aaron Inami]

Another scenario where you would need two parallel fences is if you work with rounded or uneven lumber (such as live edge wood pieces). The end of the material may not be square enough to use the crosscut flip-stop. Below is an example of a weirdly shaped piece of wood. It really depends on what kind of projects you expect to be working on.

509163

[Derek Cohen]

Another scenario where you would need two parallel fences is if you work with rounded or uneven lumber (such as live edge wood pieces). The end of the material may not be square enough to use the crosscut flip-stop. Below is an example of a weirdly shaped piece of wood. It really depends on what kind of projects you expect to be working on.

509163

When ripping boards with irregular sides, start with one side and use the edging shoe ...

https://www.holzwerken.net/app/uploads/2022/02/IMG_4130.jpg


... then you can either use a parallel guide of the rip fence.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Josh Baldwin]

Another scenario where you would need two parallel fences is if you work with rounded or uneven lumber (such as live edge wood pieces). The end of the material may not be square enough to use the crosscut flip-stop. Below is an example of a weirdly shaped piece of wood. It really depends on what kind of projects you expect to be working on.

509163

Yea sorry for the confusion on this whole thing. The entire reason I was looking at a parallel guide was because my plan is to rip everything on the left side of the blade. I understand using the edging shoe for the first straight line rip, then I was just trying to figure out the best option for the parallel rip on the other side of the board. I totally get that for most things like cutting sheet goods, crosscuts, etc I don't need all this stuff. I was just trying to figure out if the F&F Jig, which I know I'll use for lots of small piece cuts, small rips, etc would be good enough or ideal for ripping longer boards perfectly.

[Brian W Evans]

Brian, the slot in the wagon is most definitely metric, but it's easy to make fixtures that use it. I machined some material from scrap oak years ago to fit in there so I can fasten down custom fixtures when necessary. A simple captive nut with an appropriate sized fastener from above through the fixture works well. There's no '3/4" standard' on machines like this...

Thanks, Jim. I only mentioned that because someone above said that the MM came with a 3/4" slot. I use both hardwood and aluminum bar stock to fit things in the 5/8" +/- slot on my sliding table.

[Jim Becker]

Thanks, Jim. I only mentioned that because someone above said that the MM came with a 3/4" slot. I use both hardwood and aluminum bar stock to fit things in the 5/8" +/- slot on my sliding table.
I missed that mention. The MM does come with a "standard" 5/8" arbor in North America, but that's about the only "inch" measurement on the machine other than the dual scales on the fences. :)

[Aaron Inami]

Yea sorry for the confusion on this whole thing. The entire reason I was looking at a parallel guide was because my plan is to rip everything on the left side of the blade. I understand using the edging shoe for the first straight line rip, then I was just trying to figure out the best option for the parallel rip on the other side of the board. I totally get that for most things like cutting sheet goods, crosscuts, etc I don't need all this stuff. I was just trying to figure out if the F&F Jig, which I know I'll use for lots of small piece cuts, small rips, etc would be good enough or ideal for ripping longer boards perfectly.

When I got my saw, I basically put the edging shoe into storage and never used it. I can see the value of an edging shoe if you have a whole LOT of boards you want to do a first straight line rip. You can just shove the wood under the edging show and go. If you have a crosscut fence and clamps, it is more of a hassle because you have to :
1. remove clamps behind fence
2. remove crosscut fence
3. install edging shoe
4. do your cuts
5. remove edging shoe
6. re-install crosscut fence
7. re-install clamps behind fence

The whole idea of the edging shoe is to hold that end of the board still so that it doesn't shift left/right during the cut. I have found that my 6" Kreg clamps will reach over the crosscut fence and do this same thing just fine.

- If you're cutting down large sheet goods, you likely will only need the crosscut fence and flip-stop (until your sheets get down to under 24" or so).
- If you're cutting boards up to 14-15" wide which have square ends, the Fritz-n-Franz will excel here.
- If you have long sheets/boards that are 15-25" wide, you can benefit from one parallel fence in addition to the crosscut flip-stop.

You may want two parallel fences if you have one of these scenarios:
- cutting an angle on the long edge of a board
- cutting a raw/uneven wood where you want to leave the ends raw

An example would be something like this where you have a raw live edge on the ends that you want to keep, but need to rip-cut the sides so that they are parallel. The ends may be uneven enough that the crosscut flip-stop is unusable. In that case, you really want two parallel fences:
509185 509187

It really depends on what kind of projects you intend to work on.

[Mark e Kessler]

I would look for a used SCM and install 3ph, specifically Phase Perfect (10hp is all you would need, I have one and it will start an 18hp SCM widebelt). you will be better off in the long run and at 10k or under. A used SCM will be more saw than either of the 2 you are looking at and once you have 3P it opens up a world of opportunities for low cost industrial equipment.

[Warren Lake]

think the same as Mark. How much was a 10 HP Phase perfect? Was there only one model or several. My Delta TME gave us three choices and opted for the middle one. 10 HP unit starts 10Hp with no issues and likely do more. My old 3HP that was bare bones minimum 3HP roto would start 4HP. I had emailed a company recently on a post they made about Rotos and turns out they have some they sell but mostly Phase perfect. They sent me info but not prices, Think you are in the US so diff on dollar. How many machines can you run at once total amps. They had a chart to prove they were cheaper to run but they compared needing a 20HP roto to run a 10HP machine which is not the case with the brand i have so right off even before cost of the unit it would not help me compare.

[Phillip Mitchell]

I bought a 10 hp Phase Perfect in NEMA 3R outdoor enclosure recently and it was $3400 delivered. It makes 36 amps of 3 phase @ 240v.

I have an older short stroke SCM slider with a 3 phase 9hp motor (and a shop full of older 3 ph tools) and agree that phase converter + used 3 phase is the way to go for me but not for everyone if you aren’t comfortable with used industrial. You could buy a very nice phase converter and used industrial, full stroke 3 phase slider and still be under 10k and have the future ability to run other 3 phase tools.

[Josh Baldwin]

Thanks for the help everyone. I ended up ordering the Felder K500S. It really just boiled down to price since I think both machines are excellent. I ended up getting it for $2000 less than the SCM, so for me it was a no brainer. Now the dreaded wait til February to get it in the shop.

[Rod Sheridan]

Congratulations Josh, you’re going to love your new saw……Regards, Rod

[Michael Burnside]

Thanks for the help everyone. I ended up ordering the Felder K500S. It really just boiled down to price since I think both machines are excellent. I ended up getting it for $2000 less than the SCM, so for me it was a no brainer. Now the dreaded wait til February to get it in the shop.

Josh, who did you purchase through and what options did you end up getting? I'm considering adding one of these to my shop. Thanks for any and all info you can provide.

[David Dille]

Depending on you situation, you may be able to use a rotary power phase converter to supply your tool with the 3 phase it may need, should you go that route. Most phase converters are now pretty much plug and play.

[Josh Baldwin]

Josh, who did you purchase through and what options did you end up getting? I'm considering adding one of these to my shop. Thanks for any and all info you can provide.

Hey Michael, so the only options I got were the Dado Capability, Indexed Miter and Overhead Dust Collection. My contact at Felder is Jeff Jordan - j.jordan@felder-group.com
He wouldn't want me to tell you the price, haha. But depending on your willingness to walk away from the transaction, I think you can get a pretty sizeable discount. Good luck and let me know if you have any other questions.

[Michael Burnside]

Thanks Josh, appreciate the feedback. I noticed they had an imperial option too, which is something, at this point in my life, I'm sticking with. Yea walking away is easy. This is a want, not a need. Maybe that will push me over the edge to get a ShopSabre Pro 404 instead LOL.

[Jim Becker]

Michael, the SCM/Mniimax machines are dual scale. It's surprising that Felder/Hammer would need to option that for the North American market.

[Michael Burnside]

Thanks Jim, that’s good to know. Not sure why I’m having such a hard time finding out that basic information and does seem odd its an “option”. I’m just starting to research K500S, SC4E (5.5) or SC3C.

[Rod Sheridan]

Thanks Jim, that’s good to know. Not sure why I’m having such a hard time finding out that basic information and does seem odd its an “option”. I’m just starting to research K500S, SC4E (5.5) or SC3C.

Hi Michael, mine is Imperial/metric, you can also get just Imperial or metric.

It depends upon what Felder USA order for stock machines, if you order a custom for yourself you get whatever you wish, that’s why I have a short stroke saw/shaper with outrigger.

Regards, Rod.

[Jim Becker]

Thanks Jim, that’s good to know. Not sure why I’m having such a hard time finding out that basic information and does seem odd its an “option”. I’m just starting to research K500S, SC4E (5.5) or SC3C.
I believe that what Rod mentions is likely true...for the Felder/Hammer machines that are "stock orders", they likely come dual scale for North American buyers. SCM/Minimax is the same in that regard for the sliders. The best deals with SCM/Minimax are also the "stock" units. The SC4C and SC3C (like I have) come with all the goodies in the crate as a stock machine...clamp, shoe, extra work support, short miter fence/gage, scoring. and actual decent main and scoring blades.