To cyclone or not to cylcone?

[Josh Goldsmith]

I know alot of people are talking about different dust collection setups. Well i think i have a slightly different question. I asked all of you about upgrading to a 3hp dust collector and you all said i should go to a cyclone setup. My question to all of you again is why does a cyclone get more rants and raves than a regular dust collector. If you add a trash can with a top to make your dust collector into a two stage system wouldn't that be the same? Another question. I am a part owner in a HVAC company which we have all the sheet metal equipment i would ever need to build a nice cyclone. What hp and rpm would one need for a motor? I want to be really efficent at sucking the fine dust and large particles and also want to be able to add some more toys:D . Here is what i have to run off the dust collector.
Table saw 22124 + and overhead dust collection for the table saw
Router table
Bandsaw G0555
8" Jointer G1018HW
I am going to be getting a 13" planer, 27" drum sander, and a oscilating sander.

What has it costed others who built there own cyclone system? Is there anything that you would have done different? I know a few of you refered me to different websites that had excellent walkthrough but i didn't understand some of the stuff and felt i needed to talk some thing out before i would grasp the whole thing first. Is there any other systems that might work for me. Please keep in mind that i am not a business nor do i have a huge shop. Thanks for your time. Josh

[Mark Rios]

I just saw (tonight) an American Woodworker article at BORG and they had done a review of DC's. They didn't really give any top rank or a "Somebody's Choice" rating, but they did recommend the Onieda Gorilla's and the Grizzly Cyclones as being their favorites. Maybe either of those could give you ideas.

[Rob Will]

Josh,
Here is a link to Bill Pentz's cyclone design page:
http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/Equipment.cfm#CycloneDetail

Another cyclone design page with formulas to calculate size:
http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~gmhyde/433_web_pages/cyclones/1D2D-Cyclone-design.pdf

Let us know what you come up with.
Rob

[Mike Cutler]

Josh. I think that it really comes down to efficiency. The flow rates through a tuned cyclone setup would be better than the flow rates through a DC,
While the DC would have a static D/P across a system, the cyclone would have slightly more variability with the the position and size of a neutral vane and the size of the impeller.
Being in the sheet metal business, you have the luxury of building, and sizing your own DC piping and Cyclone. Definitely a huge savings to have this ability. All you really need to buy is the impeller, or go with a commercial impeller and add your own motor.

I don't have the room for a Cyclone in my shop, so I use a DC that sits outside of the shop, and run the hose into the shop. Ultimately I think that I would like to install a cyclone sytem, but it will still be outside of the shop.

[Matt Meiser]

Take a look at Bill Pentz's site like others have said. Go with the biggest blower you can. If you go too small, you'll probably just end up upgrading later.

I have a Jet 2HP blower with a 12" fan and an Oneida component cyclone. At the time I bought this, there wasn't a ton available as the "cyclone wars" were just starting. It works pretty well, but the separation isn't the best for the really fine powder so I was having to clean my filters too much. I finally gave up and tried exhausting the blower outside which is working fine. One of the benefits of a cyclone is that it is much easier to empty than the bags in a DC unit. I just wheel the drum out from underneath and replace it with my spare drum and I'm back up and running. I can then dump the drums when I have time.

If I was starting over, I'd just buy a Grizzly or Dust Gorrilla cyclone as I'd have spent about the same amount of money, but would have a better design.

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Geez Josh, build you own cyclone following Mr. Pentz's design!! With the tools and stuff available to you, I expect it to be finished by Monday!! :D

get the biggest motor and buy a GOOD impeller (Mr. Pentz has links and recommendations) and then BUILD your own blower, it is EASY to do (again plans on Mr. Pentz's site).

The biggest advantage of a GOOD cyclone is that you have nothing to clean up, you just remove the bin from under the cyclone, and dump it, or pull out the bag and toss it. No felt bags to pound, no dusty bags to take on and off the DC, trust us, it is the way to go.

Cheers!

[tod evans]

josh, i do not have a cyclone, i built my own chip seperator that works just so-so. you do have the option of just exhausting outdoors and eliminating the need for return air filters alltogether. this would be the least expensive and cleanest air route to go....02 tod

[Jim O'Dell]

josh, i do not have a cyclone, i built my own chip seperator that works just so-so. you do have the option of just exhausting outdoors and eliminating the need for return air filters alltogether. this would be the least expensive and cleanest air route to go....02 tod

(Note, text color change not on original post)

As long as you exhaust down wind!!!!:D I'm going to start out exhausting outside myself, then add the filters later, just for the immediate cost savings. Jim.

[Josh Goldsmith]

Thanks for the comments! So when picking a motor what are some specs i should look for. I am going to be looking for a motor at a local salvage yard where they have everything. I would like something above 3hp hopefully around 6-7hp. Would that be plenty? What rpms and so on do i need? Also where do you buy the propellers? What size propeller would you recommend with that hp? Thanks Josh

Oh' i almost forgot. Hey Stu i liked your website and all the pics. Your dungon looks cool!;) Talk to you later

[Charlie Plesums]

Pick the blower first, then get a motor to support it. Like everyone else, I recommend Bill Pentz's web site. His discussion is painfully long, but each time I skipped part as too boring, I realized that I was later asking questions from the part I had skipped.

I got a big Grizzly dual bag dust sucker. It just moved the dust to the corner of the shop and made sure it was airborne so I could breathe it.

I got the grizzly .3 micron filter bags, to cut the dust. Also cut the airflow after a few minutes... the bags plugged too quickly and had to be cleaned constantly. I can make you a heck of a deal on some bags with only a few hours use.

I spent over $100 on a custom bag, but it is so big that it doesn't fit in the shop well. Airflow is better, but far from perfect. With the big bag on top I can use a disposable bottom bag, but it is a pain to change (and must be followed by vacuuming the shop and taking a shower).

The chip separator does drop the bigger chips out of the line that goes to the jointer and planer, but it also drops the air pressure/suction. I still use it, but with the lower suction, I can plug that line with my planer. With few chips making it to the dust collector, I only have to change the bag on the dust collector occasionally.

I hate sheet metal work, so I don't want to build my own cyclone.

Someday I will buy the cyclone I should have bought in the first place, and probably spend no more than I have already wasted trying to do it on the cheap.

[tod evans]

josh, please read bills website before buying anything! i know there`s a ton of information but you will save yourself lots of grief if you spend the time........02 tod

[Rob Beckers]

Josh, if you decide to go with Bill's design and want to save yourself the time to look for a motor and matching impellor: Ed at ClearVue (http://www.clearvuecyclones.com/) sells 5HP motors and matching 15" impellors.

Just FWIW, I did a whole lot of reading on dust collectors and looking around the Web for comments by people on commercial and self-made units. If you have a metal working shop at hand it should be a pretty trivial decision (and save you some bucks too!). Bill Pentz is the way to go.

Another piece of that puzzle you'll have to buy (unless you have the luxury of venting outside), are the filters. I just purchased two Camfil Farr filters (http://www.camfilfarr-gt.com/site/admin/actions/upload2/uploads/map6/tenkay.pdf) recommended by Bill. Type number is 125154-005, and I paid CAN$57.20 (about US$45) each for them, directly from Camfil Farr. They have representatives in many cities, so there maybe one close to you.

Good luck!
-Rob-

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Josh, make sure you figure out what size shaft the impeller that you want uses, BEFORE you buy the motor :)

READ MR PENTZ'S SITE...... ;)

WELL worth the read.

[J.R. Rutter]

Agree - Bill's site has good info - particularly pay attention to the proportions of diameter to cone length.

If you look at industrial cyclones like Torit or Aget compared to what is readily available, you will see that the cones are longer for better efficiency. The more inlet velocity, the better as well, so most cyclones have an inlet sized to give about 5,000 CFM for whatever fan is pulling through...

[Mike Hollingsworth]

I finally gave up and tried exhausting the blower outside which is working fine.

Matt

What do your neighbors think of the noise?
This would be an issue for me.

thanks
Mike

[Matt Meiser]

They are horses, and don't seem to care. If they complain too much, I'll just make hide glue. :D

I'm in the country, so its not really an issue. The horses' owners are building a house next door, but it is a good 200' from my shop and upwind from the prevailing winds.

[Joe Chritz]

Also being in Michigan, don't forget about make up air and heating issues.

I went with a Super Dust Gorilla and I can image how fast that would pump out all my heated air.

Also I have had it up and running only a month but I still don't have a measurable amount of find dust in the filter trap. It seems to do an excellent job of seperating the fine dust.

Have some cabinet doors coming up that will need a few hours sanding and I'll see how it does then.

Joe