Incessant Fee’s, tip pandering, and Shrinkflation

[Rich Konopka]

I went to order Chinese takeout for the family from doordash. Wow!! We do not do delivery but had company over and didn’t feel like going out to get it. The order came to $89 for 2 menu items and fried rice. Nope, not going to happen. The order came to $51 when I picked it up at the restaurant. $38 in fees and suggested tip. Whoa 🤯 oh, and when I am picking and paying for the takeout they ask me for tip for the kitchen staff.

I get home and I noticed that the restaurant changed its containers to smaller sized containers. Talk about Shrinkflation.

It’s crazy how ridiculous it has gotten with excessive fees, over zealous tip pandering, and Shrinkflation in one’s quest for Chinese takeout.

I curious how extreme it has gotten. what have you experienced?

Btw, I noticed that Doordash’s suggested tip algorithm also encompasses the fees & taxes when suggesting a tip. I always the tip is calculated based on food and drinks??

[Keegan Shields]

I refuse to use any delivery apps like Doordash, Grubhub, and UberEats. Not only do they charge you for the delivery, they also screw the restaurant out of most of their margin. No thanks.

The restaurant business is hard enough without these companies inserting themselves as middlemen.

https://www.saddlebackbbq.com/pages/how-google-doordash-grubhub-conspire-screw-local-restaurants

[Brian Runau]

We don't use delivery even on pizza anymore, if we are unwilling to go get it we don't have it. Reviewing 2023 expenses for 2024 budget. I’m thinking @ 25% increase post pandemic. Suggested tip at great clips is $5 on a $16 hair cut. I don’t tip at self serve restaurants, only when I sit and you take my order, but we are eating out less due to cost. Brian

[Bill Howatt]

People seem to forget that if the price of the meal has increased (and they certainly have) then tips based on percentage are automatically scaled up. I didn't mind tipping a bit extra when business was in the doldrums because of the pandemic. I will tip at buffets if I'm getting good, friendly service for drink replacement, plate removal, whatever. I do tip my barber well because she is very pleasant, interested in my well-being and I don't keep my hair well trimmed so she probably has to do a bit more work when I finally show up. If you want a decent tip from me, along with good service, you have to be friendly and make me feel I'm happy to be there.

[Jim Becker]

It should not be surprising in the least that the added cost for services like DoorDash, InstaCart, etc., are what they are. The folks making the deliveries have to make a living and the companies that run the platforms expect to earn money, too. I personally do not use the services. Oh, ok...DD once but that was for something from PetSmart and the service was free that day. (I did tip the dude $5)

I honestly don't do takeout either, but that's simply because I like my food fresh. I either cook it or we go out to eat once or twice a week. There are two or three places we've wanted to try, but they remain takeout only so, well...nope.

[Doug Garson]

We have been using Skip the Dishes about once a week for the last two years. Usually Saturday night after we both volunteer at a food bank and are too tired to cook. It also gives us the opportunity to try a variety of local restaurants in the comfort of home. Our order is always over the minimum for free delivery, we just tip the driver. I disagree with the criticism that they cut into the restaurant's margin. The delivery company charges a fee to the restaurant in return for a service (they don't touch the driver's tip) and they probably increase the restaurant's revenue with higher volume. If the restaurant wasn't increasing their net revenue by using the service they would stop using the service. I figure the tip we pay the driver is worth it so we don't have to drive to the restaurant and the driver probably needs the few bucks more than we do. My 2 cents worth.

[Keegan Shields]

I disagree with the criticism that they cut into the restaurant's margin. The delivery company charges a fee to the restaurant in return for a service

That’s what I thought Doug, until I read up on the topic. The core of the problem the disparity in size. Large corporations like DoorDash etc against small restaurants with no negotiating power.

Keep squeezing the mom and pop restaurants and they will go out of business, leaving your area with only fast food and cheap restaurant chains.

At the end of the day, it’s up to each person to decide where your priorities lay. Just trying to help others make an informed decision. If I’m paying $40 for takeout, I’d rather spend it all with the business who actually made it.

[Doug Garson]

That’s what I thought Doug, until I read up on the topic. The core of the problem the disparity in size. Large corporations like DoorDash etc against small restaurants with no negotiating power.

Keep squeezing the mom and pop restaurants and they will go out of business, leaving your area with only fast food and cheap restaurant chains.

At the end of the day, it’s up to each person to decide where your priorities lay. Just trying to help others make an informed decision. If I’m paying $40 for takeout, I’d rather spend it all with the business who actually made it.

To be fair, I haven't researched this topic much other than looking into whether Skip the Dishes takes a cut from the drivers (they don't). Don't know about the delivery services in the US, my research says Skip charges 11% to the restaurant in return for providing a delivery service that includes a website that lets customers view the full menu (with up to date data when items are unavailable) and place a order complete with instructions to the kitchen like food allergies etc.) Coordinates a fleet of drivers to match a driver with the restaurant and the customer so there is a driver at the restaurant to pick up the order when it is ready. Don't know if a small mom and pop restaurant could (for 11%) or would want to take that on and provide as efficient a service to the customer.

I'd be interested to hear which reading lead you to the conclusion you reached.

[Bill Howatt]

FWIW, Bing AI said DoorDash offered 15-30% plans to restaurants and the average (or maybe, typical) was 20%. Few months back there was newspaper article about how the restaurants in the pandemic were squeezed by delivery services.
In general, though, it all boils down to convenience for the end-user and maybe these services provide enough value-added to make it worthwhile for a business to pay the charge.

[Frederick Skelly]

I don’t use delivery services, but my neighbor often has DoorDash bring them a dozen donuts on Sunday AM. Seems crazy to me, but …

[Stan Calow]

Shrinkflation: its been going on forever but I still fume over it, as I'm looking at my breakfast oreo cookie which seems to be half the size it used to be and with hardly any filling. I blame the ignorant buying public who don't look and don't know a pound is 16 ounces, not 12 (bacon) or 13 (coffee), and can't count or calculate value. Marketing is a science and they know how to use our weaknesses against us. I don't blame companies for wanting to make money, but people for being unwilling to learn basic math.

Tip-flation: Everyone expects, even demands, tips for doing nothing significant. Guilt-tipping is the new term, as nobody actually tips based on quality of service, just fear of being disliked. And I remember when it was pre-tax amount, but that idea disappeared. Yes, self-service concessions at the ballpark, where the only thing a human does is hand me a hotdog, and I'm supposed to tip? It's a ridiculous custom, to subsidize labor costs. Why cant we just expect businesses to pay their workers? The pandemic was/is used as an excuse to bump up tip expectations. Now it's permanent, and everywhere. Pandering for tips? I dont mind tipping for helpful service, but I value professionalism and efficiency over false friendliness and hovering. I dont need you to be my friend, just get my order correctly.

Delivery: the only food I have delivered is from my local pizza shop. The fewer people handling my food, the better. If I need McD's that badly, I can get off the couch or plan my day better. The grocery delivery services I can understand. I think the trend to cashless transactions means some people have learned to not see the cumulative effect of all these small purchases, because they dont see the cash leaving their hand. And mom & dad pay off the credit card, so it's not real money.

[Keegan Shields]

I'd be interested to hear which reading lead you to the conclusion you reached.


Sure, lots of interesting articles on the topic are available. Here is a well written one from 2021:


https://www.newyorker.com/culture/q-and-a/the-fight-to-rein-in-delivery-apps

with a nice quote:

"I was the former Head of Innovation at Grubhub, so I have seen the truth behind many of these claims first hand. Sadly, I invented a lot of the food delivery technologies that are now being used for evil. … COVID-19 is exposing the fact that delivery platforms are not actually in the business of delivery. They are in the business of finance. In many ways, they are like payday lenders for restaurants and drivers. They give you the sensation of cash-flow, but at the expense of your long term future and financial stability. Once you “take out this loan” you will never pay it back and it will ultimately kill your business."

[glenn bradley]

I think of these types of delivery services the same way I think of lumber prices at Rockler and Woodcraft. This is a convenience service and you pay a premium. We need to decide in each instance if the price is worth the benefit. We tipped at our local restaurants during COVID since we felt bad for the familiar wait staff who were used to receiving that income. We don't normally tip for take out . . . local or not.

[mike stenson]

I have a couple friends who own restaurants, and don't allow food delivery pickups. Because of the above.

[Jim Becker]

That’s what I thought Doug, until I read up on the topic. The core of the problem the disparity in size. Large corporations like DoorDash etc against small restaurants with no negotiating power..
I agree. A number of local restaurants are actively begging folks to order directly and either pick up or have restaurant personal deliver because of the fees from the gig-company delivery servce that can sometimes reach up to 30% of the cost of a meal. Profit margins are hit hard which makes it more difficult for the eateries to invest in their businesses.

[Rich Konopka]

Regarding Tipping. I am a big tipper. I always appreciate someone who is working their butt off and relies on tips for their income. I don't like going into 5 Guys, Chinese Resturant, Starbucks , dunkin, etc where they are paid an hourly wage and groveling for tips.

I have always understood that a tip should be applied to the Food & Drink for service at a restaurant. I have noticed that the "Suggested Tip" at the bottom of the receipt more often is calculated with the fees and taxes.

[Thomas McCurnin]

I have a close friend that runs a restaurant and also a bar. The cost of most raw materials, eggs, flour, meat and the like have gone up. By the way, to go orders cost the restaurant more for packing and supplies.

As for delivery, it is the cost of convenience for cold food. Pay it and watch TV instead of driving, fighting traffic, and parking. Or not.

I tend to tip anyone who delivers anything to the home that I can catch.

[Edward Weber]

Shrinkflation: its been going on forever but I still fume over it, as I'm looking at my breakfast oreo cookie which seems to be half the size it used to be and with hardly any filling. I blame the ignorant buying public who don't look and don't know a pound is 16 ounces, not 12 (bacon) or 13 (coffee), and can't count or calculate value. Marketing is a science and they know how to use our weaknesses against us. I don't blame companies for wanting to make money, but people for being unwilling to learn basic math.

Tip-flation: Everyone expects, even demands, tips for doing nothing significant. Guilt-tipping is the new term, as nobody actually tips based on quality of service, just fear of being disliked. And I remember when it was pre-tax amount, but that idea disappeared. Yes, self-service concessions at the ballpark, where the only thing a human does is hand me a hotdog, and I'm supposed to tip? It's a ridiculous custom, to subsidize labor costs. Why cant we just expect businesses to pay their workers? The pandemic was/is used as an excuse to bump up tip expectations. Now it's permanent, and everywhere. Pandering for tips? I dont mind tipping for helpful service, but I value professionalism and efficiency over false friendliness and hovering. I dont need you to be my friend, just get my order correctly.

Delivery: the only food I have delivered is from my local pizza shop. The fewer people handling my food, the better. If I need McD's that badly, I can get off the couch or plan my day better. The grocery delivery services I can understand. I think the trend to cashless transactions means some people have learned to not see the cumulative effect of all these small purchases, because they dont see the cash leaving their hand. And mom & dad pay off the credit card, so it's not real money.

I wholeheartedly agree.
The entire concept of tipping was to give someone a little bit extra on top of their meager wages. A small amount to acknowledge that they went above their expected duties and that it was appreciated.

Now tipping is built in? not for me. You earn a tip, it's not a forgone conclusion.
There have even been stories about self checkout machines asking for a tip.

Pay people a proper wage, they shouldn't have to rely on their customers kindness/guilt to subsidize their pay.

[Doug Garson]

Sure, lots of interesting articles on the topic are available. Here is a well written one from 2021:


https://www.newyorker.com/culture/q-and-a/the-fight-to-rein-in-delivery-apps

with a nice quote:

"I was the former Head of Innovation at Grubhub, so I have seen the truth behind many of these claims first hand. Sadly, I invented a lot of the food delivery technologies that are now being used for evil. … COVID-19 is exposing the fact that delivery platforms are not actually in the business of delivery. They are in the business of finance. In many ways, they are like payday lenders for restaurants and drivers. They give you the sensation of cash-flow, but at the expense of your long term future and financial stability. Once you “take out this loan” you will never pay it back and it will ultimately kill your business."
Thanks, I wasn't aware of this. May still use Skip as we like the convenience but next time I'll look at ordering direct from the restaurant website. Did do it that way recently as Skip suddenly decided one of our favorite restaurants was outside our delivery area.

[Cameron Wood]

I worked as a waiter in my youth, and it was a baseline skill to take orders from a table, and deliver them to the right persons without having to ask who ordered what. These days, servers seem to have trouble even finding the right table.

Incompetentsation?

[Pat Germain]

Pay people a proper wage, they shouldn't have to rely on their customers kindness/guilt to subsidize their pay.

This. Big picture:

- Wages have not kept up with inflation over the past few decades. People dog unions a lot and many have valid reasons for doing so. But those same people talk of a "Golden Age" in the 1950s and a big part of that Golden Age came about from labor unions.
- The cost for higher education has gone up many times greater than the rate of inflation
- The cost of gasoline and diesel is up

All this adds up to goods and services costing us more.

When I was a lad, it was possible to graduate high school and work an entry-level job to pay for a cheap car, rent a cheap apartment or house with some friends maybe and even go to college. This is no longer possible. There are no more cheap apartments or houses for rent. There are no more cheap cars. Tuition is WAY too high. Although pay for entry-level jobs has gone up, it's still not nearly a living wage in most parts of the country. This is why your typical counter service has a tip jar. They are simply trying to get by as people in my generation did when we were young.

I grew up in Orange County, California where these issues cropped up in the early 1980s. My cousins had to live with their parents as young adults because housing was so ridiculously expensive. All these problems are now common in most of the country.

[Pat Germain]

I worked as a waiter in my youth, and it was a baseline skill to take orders from a table, and deliver them to the right persons without having to ask who ordered what. These days, servers seem to have trouble even finding the right table.

Incompetentsation?

This is because, post-pandemic, the skilled and experienced wait staff got better jobs with better pay, better hours and benefits. When hundreds of thousands of older workers retired during the pandemic, that left a lot of open jobs and many people were able to move up. Now there's a large vacuum at the lower rungs.

[Rob Luter]

I fight this trend by never using any delivery service, rarely getting carry out, and not dining out very often. When we do carry out it’s Chinese from a place I’ve gone for almost 30 years. I’m happy to tip them for putting my order together. When we dine out it’s at a Mom and Pop. I tip well as the wait staff are busting their collective butts. Mostly, I’m a good cook and don’t need to depend on someone else for nourishment.

[Chris Parks]

No tipping in Australia as a general rule, thanks for the service and move on. Pay the staff a living wage and everything becomes so much simpler.

[Curt Harms]

FWIW, Bing AI said DoorDash offered 15-30% plans to restaurants and the average (or maybe, typical) was 20%. Few months back there was newspaper article about how the restaurants in the pandemic were squeezed by delivery services.
In general, though, it all boils down to convenience for the end-user and maybe these services provide enough value-added to make it worthwhile for a business to pay the charge.

There's one time that delivery services are useful - if you're in a hotel without a car. Even at hotels that offer something to eat - I hesitate to call it food - it's useful to have an alternative besides Dominos.

[Rich Konopka]

There's one time that delivery services are useful - if you're in a hotel without a car. Even at hotels that offer something to eat - I hesitate to call it food - it's useful to have an alternative besides Dominos.

Ding Ding Ding !! Winner winner of a Chickens dinner. That is exactly how I started using them when traveling years ago using Grub Hub n NYC. I used them to order from Ollies for what was some of the best Chinese in NYC.

[Kevin Jenness]

Mr. Pink doesn't tip. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M4sTSIYzDIk

[Keegan Shields]

No tipping in Australia as a general rule, thanks for the service and move on. Pay the staff a living wage and everything becomes so much simpler.

Agreed. It’s an artifact of the US and has its roots in the Jim Crow south after slavery was abolished. Being a waiter was one of the only occupations open to African American men. They worked on 100% tips. Our current system is a direct descendent.

Lots of info out there on how our tipping system requires waiters to put up with sexual harassment, verbal abuse, etc. all in the pursuit of tips.

That said, including a tip line on the receipt when I grab a coffee from Starbucks always struck me as odd. Starting pay at Starbucks is around $14/hr in Texas. Certainly not the $2/hr base salary that waiters get.

[Rich Konopka]

Agreed. It’s an artifact of the US and has its roots in the Jim Crow south after slavery was abolished. Being a waiter was one of the only occupations open to African American men. They worked on 100% tips. Our current system is a direct descendent.
.

So tipping is racist? Than it should be abolished 😬

[Keegan Shields]

Isn’t history fun?

I’m certainly in favor of eliminating our tipping system and paying waiters a living wage.

Another widespread issue with our tipping system - wage theft. If waiters base pay + tips don’t add up to minimum wage at the end of a pay period, restaurant owners are supposed to make up the difference. Many don’t.

[Doug Garson]

Interesting, having learned from this thread that maybe the delivery services take away from the restaurant margins, (and one of our favorite restaurants has been determined to be outside our delivery zone :( for Skip the Dishes even though we have ordered from them thru Skip the Dishes over a dozen times in the last two years,), I ordered directly from the restaurant and guess what? They sublet the delivery to Doordash, another delivery service. Maybe my original thinking was not far off, outsourcing the delivery service makes sense for the restaurant. In this case there was a small fee for delivery but no option to tip the delivery driver so I don't know if he was as well compensated as a Skip driver.

[Jim Becker]

Doug, my understanding is that if one ordered through the delivery service site, the restaurant gets dinged heavily for the service. By ordering direct with the restaurant, they don't have that fee. They, of course, can choose how to handle delivery, either with their own folks or by contracting like you mention. It's not just restaurants that do the latter...PetSmart uses DoorDash for delivery, with or without a fee depending on the specific order, but they do have provision for tipping the driver.

[Jason Roehl]

I can’t say I know what the answer is, but I at least like the idea of tipping. It’s one area where pay is based on merit, not just presence. And I see a lot of people now who are absolutely incompetent at their jobs, making a decent wage to do little more than breathe air at their place of employment.

I recall one parts-packaging warehouse at which I worked as a student almost 30 years ago. When I left, everybody made, at most, $6.25/hour ($0.25 of that was a quality certification bonus, pretty much a requirement, and minimum wage was $4.25/hr). About a year or so later, they switched to a piece-rate compensation. Suddenly, many people’s output jumped dramatically, and they were making $12/hour on average. I was in the quality/shipping department when I left, and those folks only got a bonus based on the overall output of the warehouse. They couldn’t get or keep workers in the department after that.

[Doug Garson]

Doug, my understanding is that if one ordered through the delivery service site, the restaurant gets dinged heavily for the service. By ordering direct with the restaurant, they don't have that fee. They, of course, can choose how to handle delivery, either with their own folks or by contracting like you mention. It's not just restaurants that do the latter...PetSmart uses DoorDash for delivery, with or without a fee depending on the specific order, but they do have provision for tipping the driver.
I doubt that was true in the case I described. The delivery fee I paid was under $5 so the restaurant must have paid an additional fee to the delivery service.

[Jim Becker]

I doubt that was true in the case I described. The delivery fee I paid was under $5 so the restaurant must have paid an additional fee to the delivery service.
We are not in conflict here. The fee I was speaking about is that automatic one for the order to be placed via the delivery service website rather than direct to the restaurant. According to one local place here, that was as much as 30% of the value of the order and they stopped taking orders that way. Now if the business contracts with the delivery service "just for delivery", the metrics are likely different. I do agree with you that the nominal fee charged to the customer isn't likely the cost of actual delivery but it's likely much less than when the order also flows through the third party system. I'll guess that order volume comes into play, too...if a place can keep a local driver or two busy exclusively, there could be financial benefits to that for the actual cost. Subcontracting this may be less expensive than having employees to do the delivery, too, and it's can be more flexible.

[Doug Garson]

We are not in conflict here. The fee I was speaking about is that automatic one for the order to be placed via the delivery service website rather than direct to the restaurant. According to one local place here, that was as much as 30% of the value of the order and they stopped taking orders that way. Now if the business contracts with the delivery service "just for delivery", the metrics are likely different. I do agree with you that the nominal fee charged to the customer isn't likely the cost of actual delivery but it's likely much less than when the order also flows through the third party system. I'll guess that order volume comes into play, too...if a place can keep a local driver or two busy exclusively, there could be financial benefits to that for the actual cost. Subcontracting this may be less expensive than having employees to do the delivery, too, and it's can be more flexible.
Yeah, it seems to me that charging a % of the value of the order to process the order is not reasonable, a flat rate per order is more reasonable. Cost to deliver is generally the same regardless of the size of the order unless it's a huge order. Distance between the restaurant and home would affect the cost but as far as I can tell isn't factored in other than limiting the delivery area. Agree, a subcontracted delivery service is more efficient and flexible.

[Bill Dufour]

Our local small grocery chain got bought out by a hedge fund. A few months latter they stopped the robot home deliveries. When our friend visited in his Tesla he liked to play with. the robots. Catch them at a corner and make them jump back on to the side walk etc.
Bill D

[Ole Anderson]

Local restaurant now charges a 3.5% surcharge for using a credit card, not a 3.5% discount for using cash. And they charge $2.50 for carryout (a 10 cent box) when they don't have to deal with bussing the table and doing dishes. Plus the 15/20/25% tip amounts include the carryout portion. Just a money grab.

[Brian Elfert]

Local restaurant now charges a 3.5% surcharge for using a credit card, not a 3.5% discount for using cash. And they charge $2.50 for carryout (a 10 cent box) when they don't have to deal with bussing the table and doing dishes. Plus the 15/20/25% tip amounts include the carryout portion. Just a money grab.

Would you rather they raised prices by 3.5% and then gave a 3.5% discount for cash? Have you asked the owner of the restaurant about the carryout fee?

[Bill Dufour]

When we tip I always do it in cash, not on the credit card. No need for the service staff to loose 2.5% to the cc companies. Or the boss to take a cut.
Now that they take credit cards Arco gasoline adds five cents a gallon extra for credit. When gas was up over $5.00 a gallon premium was still 10 cents higher, super premium 20 cents more. If it costs more to make premium seems like it should cost more when base fuel stock prices are up.

Bill D,

[Edwin Santos]

I must say, one of the many things I miss about living in Japan is the no tipping culture.
It is universally regarded that good service is an expectation and part of what you're paying for in the price of whatever good or service. It is the responsibility of the establishment to pay their employees appropriately and at a level that does not in any way rely on subsidy from tips. Tipping can actually be considered rude, in the sense of insulting the person's dignity, and in Japan they value dignity more than money.

Here in the US it seems like tipping has become an obligation where it was once a voluntary option hence the word gratuity. I think some of this change is generational.

[Sam Force]

I believe if you can afford to eat out, you can afford to tip. I always tip well unless the service is not good. I don't blame the wait staff for bad food but will tip less if service is not good. I have a granddaughter that is a waitress and she does really well most days. She is very pleasant and works hard serving her customers. They respond accordingly.

[Jim Becker]

When we tip I always do it in cash, not on the credit card. No need for the service staff to loose 2.5% to the cc companies. Or the boss to take a cut.
Many restaurants have a pooled tips setup and that includes cash. This is to insure that bus and runner staff get compensated (they do a heck of a lot of work in many restaurants to support the servers) as well as to even out earnings across the wait stations because many have also gone to a team approach. Sometimes the hosts get a cut, too. And while there's a certain amount of honor that comes into play here, it's also monitored in various ways. So don't assume that because you left cash that it will go exclusively to your server. That's not the reality in a very meaningful percentage of restaurants in the US at this point. I personally do not like that restaurant staff even needs to depend upon tips to make their money...a fair wage without tips is what it should be.

[mike stenson]

I must say, one of the many things I miss about living in Japan is the no tipping culture.
It is universally regarded that good service is an expectation and part of what you're paying for in the price of whatever good or service. It is the responsibility of the establishment to pay their employees appropriately and at a level that does not in any way rely on subsidy from tips. Tipping can actually be considered rude, in the sense of insulting the person's dignity, and in Japan they value dignity more than money.

Here in the US it seems like tipping has become an obligation where it was once a voluntary option hence the word gratuity. I think some of this change is generational.

I agree, compared with everyplace else I've lived and travelled, the whole tipping thing is just weird. I guess when it is the income for the employee, it becomes obligatory.

[George Yetka]

DD is quite a bit cheaper if you spend the 10 a month. But if a place offers delivery I will skip DD and go direct.

[Kev Williams]

I'm all for tipping the servers at restaurants, bars, night clubs, casinos, etc. etc...
--but tip jars next to the cash registers at McD's and DelTaco --?

Anyone remember Sizzler Steak House's in the '70's, when they were pretty much self-service? YOU walked by the menu on the wall on the way to the girl at the register, YOU told her what steak and sides you wanted, YOU paid for it, sat down, and YOU picked it up from the cook's counter when they called your number. In addition to the cashier there were employees to prep and cook the food, bus the tables, and top off water and soft drinks. Everyone was paid the same, and at the time, paid quite well for restaurant employees. Customers weren't expected to tip, and mostly didn't. I was a Sizzler cook for awhile back then. I was one of the only people there who ever GOT a tip. I was working the broiler one lunch shift, and a cashier came to me: "this guy in line, he comes in quite often, and he always wants a raw steak! He always gets mad when I tell him we can't serve raw meat!" I told her to let me know when he got to the register and ordered. She did- He wanted a "Sizzler", raw... So I grabbed one with my tongs, and held it up, the guy nodded... I aimed it for the char-broiler, and he starts grimacing... I shook my head no, and not taking my eyes off him, I placed his steak on the top-right corner of the broiler, the hottest corner- PzzzzOneThousandOne- and turned it over, PzzzOneThousandTwo and then put it on a plate. A 3 second steak. I don't know if it was legal or not, but there WAS evidence, black broiler lines, that it HAD at least, been on the broiler!

He nodded, smiled and did a double thumbs-up, and paid the cashier :) --And his lunch was ready by then! He came to the window to pick up his plate, and insisted on giving me a $5 bill, which was like 3 hours wages back then. And he thanked me again just before he left. And every time he came in again when I was working, his lunch was ready before he paid for it!
Tips are appropriate in many/most personal-service oriented situations. But, just because you showed up for work that day... 509543

[Stan Calow]

Good one Kev. ;)

[Edward Weber]

Well here we go, now DoorDash will make you wait longer if you don't tip

https://www.theverge.com/2023/10/31/23940442/doordash-delivery-delayed-no-tip-warning

[Doug Garson]

Well here we go, now DoorDash will make you wait longer if you don't tip

https://www.theverge.com/2023/10/31/23940442/doordash-delivery-delayed-no-tip-warning
Your comment isn't actually true, they are just warning you that the system they use, (which I think is similar for all the delivery services), broadcasts your order details including the size of the tip to all available drivers and the drivers can choose whether they want to deliver your order. I think the driver's main compensation is the tip so an order with a small or no tip may not be worth the driver's attention. So it is not DoorDash that is making you wait longer, it is your small or no tip that is making you wait.

[Edward Weber]

Your comment isn't actually true, they are just warning you that the system they use, (which I think is similar for all the delivery services), broadcasts your order details including the size of the tip to all available drivers and the drivers can choose whether they want to deliver your order. I think the driver's main compensation is the tip so an order with a small or no tip may not be worth the driver's attention. So it is not DoorDash that is making you wait longer, it is your small or no tip that is making you wait.


Yes, "the drivers can choose whether they want to deliver your order"

I wonder if they'll opt for the order with the tip included or without?
give me a break

[Doug Garson]

I wonder if they'll opt for the order with the tip included or without?
give me a break
The delivery services are in business to make a profit. The business model is the delivery service charges the restaurant, not the client. The drivers are also in the business to make a profit. The client pays the driver directly for delivery thru the tip. The alternative would be the delivery service charges the client. There is no free delivery just like there is no free lunch as the saying goes.

[John Lifer]

We order pizza from the only company (dominos) that will deliver out to our house. They now charge $4.95 base delivery and then I've got to tip the pizza guy. So a 'free' pizza is $10. I hate to not tip him $5 whenever they deliver the normal $20 pizza order plus fee plus tip ends up $30. But that is us being lazy. I won't use any other delivery service for food. And I hate tipping. Yeah, tip at a bar. You can't do LESS than pour my beer in a glass and put it on the counter in front of me. You don't deserve a tip. Sorry, most waiters/waitresses don't either. Half the restaurants have the cook bring out the food. And half won't even check on the food after I get it. And I WON'T tip when I have to pay up front for the food and then go up and get it. Sorry, if you don't like it, go to work elsewhere. LAZY workers are the bane.

[Doug Garson]

We order pizza from the only company (dominos) that will deliver out to our house. They now charge $4.95 base delivery and then I've got to tip the pizza guy. So a 'free' pizza is $10. I hate to not tip him $5 whenever they deliver the normal $20 pizza order plus fee plus tip ends up $30. But that is us being lazy. I won't use any other delivery service for food. And I hate tipping. Yeah, tip at a bar. You can't do LESS than pour my beer in a glass and put it on the counter in front of me. You don't deserve a tip. Sorry, most waiters/waitresses don't either. Half the restaurants have the cook bring out the food. And half won't even check on the food after I get it. And I WON'T tip when I have to pay up front for the food and then go up and get it. Sorry, if you don't like it, go to work elsewhere. LAZY workers are the bane.
Is it lazy workers or a system that pays them less than a living wage so they must rely on tips to put food on their own table at home?

[Edward Weber]

The delivery services are in business to make a profit. The business model is the delivery service charges the restaurant, not the client. The drivers are also in the business to make a profit. The client pays the driver directly for delivery thru the tip. The alternative would be the delivery service charges the client. There is no free delivery just like there is no free lunch as the saying goes.


"The client pays the driver directly for delivery thru the tip. "

As the "client", you pay for your food and whatever delivery charge there is associated with it. You do not pay the delivery drivers wages. A delivery driver should be paid by the restaurant or parent company for the service.

A delivery driver, just like a waiter of waitress, should not have to rely on the kindness of the customer to make his/her wages.

Could you imagine if waiters and waitresses knew ahead of time who was going to tip them?

BTW, tips are usually supposed to come after a good service experience, not before. If a driver knows beforehand that he/she is going to get $X as a tip, there's no reason to do anything other than the bare minimum. It becomes just a money grab as to who gets the orders with the biggest tip first.

[Jim Becker]

Yes, "the drivers can choose whether they want to deliver your order"

One of the dog trainers we used with Oliver also drove for DoorDash (and Uber Eats). She indicated they did have some autonomy relative to both accepting a general route as well as individual orders as a way to help control their time and costs.

[Pat Germain]

We order pizza from the only company (dominos) that will deliver out to our house. They now charge $4.95 base delivery and then I've got to tip the pizza guy. So a 'free' pizza is $10. I hate to not tip him $5 whenever they deliver the normal $20 pizza order plus fee plus tip ends up $30. But that is us being lazy. I won't use any other delivery service for food. And I hate tipping. Yeah, tip at a bar. You can't do LESS than pour my beer in a glass and put it on the counter in front of me. You don't deserve a tip. Sorry, most waiters/waitresses don't either. Half the restaurants have the cook bring out the food. And half won't even check on the food after I get it. And I WON'T tip when I have to pay up front for the food and then go up and get it. Sorry, if you don't like it, go to work elsewhere. LAZY workers are the bane.

Years ago I had a lot of family at my house for Christmas. On Christmas Eve, we got home late after church and decided to order pizzas. The weather was starting to change and it was snowing harder and harder. I paid for the pizza, but I asked everyone to cough up for the driver's tip since he was delivering on Christmas Eve, in the dark, during a snow storm. I don't remember how much I collected for the tip, but it was a good wad of cash. I thanked the driver, handed him the wad of bills and wished him a Merry Christmas.

About ten minutes later the driver called me: "Hey, I just realized you gave me a super huge tip. Did you intend to do that? I can come back if you did it accidentally."

"Yeah man, you're out in a snow storm at night on Christmas Eve. It's the least we can do", I told him.

The guy literally broke down and started crying. "Thank you so much," he said through tears. "This really means a lot to me!".

For a few bucks each, my family apparently really made some guy's Christmas. That's incalculable.

So, geez, people. If workers are out there showing up for work and doing their job at a tipping position, cough up. It's not a big sacrifice for us and it means a lot to them. If workers in a tipping position are not doing their job, talk to a manager and explain why you are not tipping.

[Jim Becker]

^^ "Like"...

[Doug Garson]

Could you imagine if waiters and waitresses knew ahead of time who was going to tip them?

Actually I can and it was a great experience. We were at a resort for a week and the first day we gave the pool waiter a big tip. We had great service all week and rewarded it with another tip the last day. Win win.

[Sam Force]

Sorry, if you don't like it, go to work elsewhere. LAZY workers are the bane.

You are definitely wrong in your thinking, my granddaughter works hard for every tip she makes. Could you serve numerous tables each with someone whining about something that is out of the waiters control? Could you carry enough dishes for a table of 4 or more customers without dropping it on their heads? I would like to see most of us on this forum try to keep up with her. We would fall on our face in about 5 minutes.

My granddaughter is only 17 years old and has paid her car off, $8k in just a few months. Along with paying her own insurance and has graduated HS 1 year early. It would be an insult for anyone to label her as lazy.
Call me a proud Grumpa!!

[Edward Weber]

Actually I can and it was a great experience. We were at a resort for a week and the first day we gave the pool waiter a big tip. We had great service all week and rewarded it with another tip the last day. Win win.

That's a different situation, I do the same.
In a normal restaurant, I don't think it would work out well.

[Rob Luter]

Here's my thoughts on food delivery: expect to pay for it. Door dash and the like are services you are paying for. If you can't afford it or are angered by the cost, get off your duff and go pick it up yourself. As an alternative, learn to cook.

[Dave Zellers]

For a few bucks each, my family apparently really made some guy's Christmas. That's incalculable.

Indeed. Awesome.

[Bill Howatt]

That's a different situation, I do the same.
In a normal restaurant, I don't think it would work out well.

When the server first comes to the table and says, "Hi, I'm ABC, and I'll be your server tonight." slip him a $X bill and say, "Pleased to meet you, ABC and I trust you will take good care of us." Never done it. Closest thing I have done is to tell the server to give me the bill because the other guy in the party is a lousy tipper.

[Ron Citerone]

Here's my thoughts on food delivery: expect to pay for it. Door dash and the like are services you are paying for. If you can't afford it or are angered by the cost, get off your duff and go pick it up yourself. As an alternative, learn to cook.

Agreed. Learn to cook when your young, age related dietary changes and take out/restaurant food aren’t compatible many times.

[Edward Weber]

I do 99% of the cooking in my house, been cooking for myself since I was 14.

Back to tipping, it is out of control. Giving someone a tip and making their Holiday is all well and good but if their employer paid them enough you wouldn't need to be their xmas savior.

I don't eat out much but it sure seems to me that over the last few years, tipping has morphed into a bit of a strange cultural practice that is expected for the smallest of interactions. Some people seem to think they deserve a tip for simply existing.
I do tip people who IMO earn it, those who go above and beyond, not just expect it for doing their job.
I tip the forklift driver who helps me load my trailer, that type of thing. :D

[Brian Elfert]

Ultimately, the customer pays the wages of a business's employees. Sure, a business could eliminate tipping and pay their employees more, but then the cost of the product/service would increase to cover the increased wages. A restaurant that increased prices and eliminated tipping would probably see a drop in business as customers think the prices are higher. The customers don't realize the total price they are paying is essentially the same as when there was tipping. Restaurants like tipping because during slow periods they only have to pay tipped staff a minimal amount.

Wait staff in restaurants like tipping because they can make a pretty good wage for a part time minimal skill job. I know people who wait tables for living and $25 to $30 an hour is not unusual. Few restaurants would pay that much for wait staff if they had to cover their full wages. Today, most states have a very low minimum wage for tipped employees that is $2 to $4 an hour. As long as the $3 to $4 an hour plus tips is more than the local minimum wage the restaurant does not have to pay them more than $2 to $4 an hour. A restaurant doesn't care so much about keeping wait staff around later into the evening because they are paying so little to keep them around. If they were paying $15 to $20 an hour for wait staff they would minimize wait staff and send them home as soon as they could.

[Edward Weber]

Ultimately, the customer pays the wages of a business's employees. Sure, a business could eliminate tipping and pay their employees more, but then the cost of the product/service would increase to cover the increased wages. A restaurant that increased prices and eliminated tipping would probably see a drop in business as customers think the prices are higher. The customers don't realize the total price they are paying is essentially the same as when there was tipping. Restaurants like tipping because during slow periods they only have to pay tipped staff a minimal amount.

Wait staff in restaurants like tipping because they can make a pretty good wage for a part time minimal skill job. I know people who wait tables for living and $25 to $30 an hour is not unusual. Few restaurants would pay that much for wait staff if they had to cover their full wages. Today, most states have a very low minimum wage for tipped employees that is $2 to $4 an hour. As long as the $3 to $4 an hour plus tips is more than the local minimum wage the restaurant does not have to pay them more than $2 to $4 an hour. A restaurant doesn't care so much about keeping wait staff around later into the evening because they are paying so little to keep them around. If they were paying $15 to $20 an hour for wait staff they would minimize wait staff and send them home as soon as they could.

The simple fact that they created a category for "wage +tip" employees was the beginning of this nonsense.
CA and several other states have no such category. Employers must pay full minimum wage before adding any tipping.
https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tipped

[mike stenson]

Having lived in countries where tipping isn't a thing, and restaurant costs are the same (or lower).. eh.

[Doug Garson]

I agree with Brian, in the end the customer is the only source of revenue for the restaurant and its employees including any delivery service employees. Over the years a few restaurants in Vancouver have tried eliminating tipping by raising prices and paying higher wages. In most cases, after a few months they go back to the tipping system perhaps for the reasons Brian gave.

[Edward Weber]

I agree with Brian, in the end the customer is the only source of revenue for the restaurant and its employees including any delivery service employees. Over the years a few restaurants in Vancouver have tried eliminating tipping by raising prices and paying higher wages. In most cases, after a few months they go back to the tipping system perhaps for the reasons Brian gave.

What is different in the rest of the world that they don't have a "tipping culture" and somehow make it work?
This is a serious question, not trying to be argumentative but it's quite clear it can be done.

Maybe, just maybe, the restaurant owner takes less profit, instead of acting like the only way they could possibly survive is by raising prices or eliminating staff.
If your business model is so tight, that if customers don't tip you can't survive, I don't know what to say.

[Bill Howatt]

When I was in Europe many years ago they added 8% onto the bill for the waiter. Of course, some waiters were quick to point out that was a minimum and extra was gratefully received. No idea if it's still the same.
In Ontario, the minimum wage is around $15 per hour regardless of your job and they still are having trouble finding people from what I see. I was astounded at the $2-4 base rate in some states.

[Edward Weber]

In Ontario, the minimum wage is around $15 per hour regardless of your job and they still are having trouble finding people from what I see. I was astounded at the $2-4 base rate in some states.

But you can earn tips :rolleyes:

I don't think anyone can live, even in their parents basement, on $4 per hour. even with tips

[Pat Germain]

But you can earn tips :rolleyes:

I don't think anyone can live, even in their parents basement, on $4 per hour. even with tips

And this is the issue. Housing has become so expensive that nobody can make an actual living at an entry level job. That's why they're all clamoring for tips. As I posted earlier, no more cheap places to rent, no more cheap cars, no more cheap school. Everything is expensive, Expensive, EXPENSIVE.

[Doug Garson]

What is different in the rest of the world that they don't have a "tipping culture" and somehow make it work?
This is a serious question, not trying to be argumentative but it's quite clear it can be done.

Maybe, just maybe, the restaurant owner takes less profit, instead of acting like the only way they could possibly survive is by raising prices or eliminating staff.
If your business model is so tight, that if customers don't tip you can't survive, I don't know what to say.
Change is difficult, why is the US the only major industrialized country that has not converted to metric? Why is the UK and a few other countries, mainly former British colonies, still driving on the left?

[Pat Germain]

Change is difficult, why is the US the only major industrialized country that has not converted to metric? Why is the UK and a few other countries, mainly former British colonies, still driving on the left?

It's all pure stubbornness. In 1967 Sweden switched from driving on the left side of the road to driving on the right side of the road. Wow, I can't imagine the calamity if the US tried something like that. In Elementary school, I learned the Metric system because President Carter said America was going metric. Of course, that didn't happen and I had to teach myself the Imperial system.

[Doug Garson]

It's all pure stubbornness. In 1967 Sweden switched from driving on the left side of the road to driving on the right side of the road. Wow, I can't imagine the calamity if the US tried something like that. In Elementary school, I learned the Metric system because President Carter said America was going metric. Of course, that didn't happen and I had to teach myself the Imperial system.
No doubt some of it is stubbornness, I worked for the Canadian subsidiary of a US company for half my working carrier so I'm familiar with the "not invented here" syndrome. But some of it is also the practical aspect of the cost and logistics of making the change and retraining people's brains. I learned the Imperial system all the way thru university. Canada officially went metric in 1975. In reality we are still a hybrid of metric and imperial due in large part to our proximity to the US. I still think in imperial units for most things, maybe I'm stubborn or maybe just a slow learner.:rolleyes:

[Bill Howatt]

I think the US is more metric than much of the general population is aware of which is understandable because of packaging and weather reports. As Doug says we are hybrid but I think tending more towards metric possibly because the young generation not having the imperial units background like us old dorks. I remember, and this was some time ago, discussing the temperature in F in a car trip. The high-school student said she didn't know what we were talking about in degrees F. Of course, grocery stores like to advertize meat in $/lb in the big font with $/kg in a small font because it looks cheaper and dual-labelling while convenient for some it discourages conversion. When Canada went officially metric I bought a new non-digital outdoor thermometer and insisted it only be degrees C so I'd get on with it.
I still do my WWing in imperial but I do notice a bit more metric use creeping in and no doubt about it, it is a less error-prone system.

[Edward Weber]

Change is difficult, why is the US the only major industrialized country that has not converted to metric? Why is the UK and a few other countries, mainly former British colonies, still driving on the left?

Well there you have it, it's the people who won't change, noting to do with the economics of the situation.

IMO, change is easy, getting two or more people to agree on the change is like moving a mountain

[Lee Schierer]

Change is difficult, why is the US the only major industrialized country that has not converted to metric? Why is the UK and a few other countries, mainly former British colonies, still driving on the left?

The supposed reason the U.S. didn't go metric was that industry and primarily the automotive industry were pretty much locked in on the Inch system for their tooling. Since then as more goods and machine tools have been imported from metric based nations, nuts, bolts and other fasteners have been coming in metric sizes. Most cars now have metric bolts on the engine.

When we rented a car in England a few years ago I had to learn to drive on the left side while on the right side of the car. It took about a day and a half to get used to driving on the other side. I still had to think about it a bit at intersections and round abouts. We took a trip earlier this year to the Canadian Rockies and rented a car. The speedometer, odometer were both in Kilometers. So were all the road signs. I switched our GPS to metric and we were good to go. No problems. It was actually enjoyable watching the KM's drop away so quickly on longer drives.

[Lee DeRaud]

We took a trip earlier this year to the Canadian Rockies and rented a car. The speedometer, odometer were both in Kilometers. So were all the road signs. I switched our GPS to metric and we were good to go. No problems. It was actually enjoyable watching the KM's drop away so quickly on longer drives.
A lot of cars these days can be switched between miles and kilometers by the owner (or a fumble-fingered mechanic).

A friend of mine is dealing with a situation now where she's trying to sell her deceased sister's car. At some point it got switched to metric for awhile and, while it was in for a smog check, that was the value reported to DMV. Oopsie. It's now back in miles, but the DMV's computer has flagged the VIN as having a rolled-back odometer, which has reduced the value of the car by something like 30%.

[Alan Lightstone]

A friend of mine is dealing with a situation now where she's trying to sell her deceased sister's car. At some point it got switched to metric for awhile and, while it was in for a smog check, that was the value reported to DMV. Oopsie. It's now back in miles, but the DMV's computer has flagged the VIN as having a rolled-back odometer, which has reduced the value of the car by something like 30%.
I had that happen to a Lexus I owned many years ago. The odometer broke, and the dealer replaced it. No question the actual mileage on the car, but it's value plumeted.

Lesson learned. If your odometer breaks, sell the car that day.

[Bill Howatt]

A lot of cars these days can be switched between miles and kilometers by the owner (or a fumble-fingered mechanic).

...
Years ago, my wife cleaned the dash on her old '93 Blazer that had a digital display with a large number in the center for speed. She was driving her son somewhere and he said, "aren't we going kind of fast?". Her cleaning had switched the display to MPH from the required Km/h.

[Jim Becker]

The supposed reason the U.S. didn't go metric was that industry and primarily the automotive industry were pretty much locked in on the Inch system for their tooling. Since then as more goods and machine tools have been imported from metric based nations, nuts, bolts and other fasteners have been coming in metric sizes. Most cars now have metric bolts on the engine..
My understanding was that the automotive industry moved to metric early on because parts production had already become a global sourcing situation.

[Lee DeRaud]

My understanding was that the automotive industry moved to metric early on because parts production had already become a global sourcing situation.
For GM, that goes back at least to the early 1990s: bit of a shock when I discovered my '94 Olds had metric hardware for everything. (Could have been quite a bit earlier, as my car previous to that was Japanese.) There are still some inch-centric measurements, like V8 bore spacing, probably related to legacy production machinery.

[Bill Dufour]

My 73 Volvo was all Inch fasteners except for the fuel injection stuff made in germany. Maybe a few other things like the alternator made by suppliers.
BilL D

[Rich Konopka]

So metric vs. imperial is akin to tipping vs. No tipping??

[Jim Becker]

So metric vs. imperial is akin to tipping vs. No tipping??
That's call "thread wandering"...

[Doug Garson]

So metric vs. imperial is akin to tipping vs. No tipping??
No, hard to change away from a system where servers rely on tips to feed their families is akin to hard to change away from the Imperial system. Short term, status quo is almost always easier than change.

[Edward Weber]

No, hard to change away from a system where servers rely on tips to feed their families is akin to hard to change away from the Imperial system. Short term, status quo is almost always easier than change.

While I don't disagree, the framing is a bit lop sided
"rely on tips to feed their families", seriously?
The argument is not if they get paid but how they get paid and by whom. In either case, it's ultimately the customer.

People get stuck in their ruts, which is not always a good thing. The status quo needs to get shaken up from time to time.
JMHO

[Doug Garson]

While I don't disagree, the framing is a bit lop sided
"rely on tips to feed their families", seriously?
The argument is not if they get paid but how they get paid and by whom. In either case, it's ultimately the customer.

People get stuck in their ruts, which is not always a good thing. The status quo needs to get shaken up from time to time.
JMHO
OK, replace "feed their family" with "make a decent living"? I agree a system where waiters make a decent living and tips are a bonus for extraordinary service would be preferable but getting there from where we are now is not easy and probably not going to happen without a third party imposing a living minimum wage. I think many of the individual restaurants that have tried to make the switch have not been successful and switched back.

[Bill Howatt]

OK, replace "feed their family" with "make a decent living"? I agree a system where waiters make a decent living and tips are a bonus for extraordinary service would be preferable but getting there from where we are now is not easy and probably not going to happen without a third party imposing a living minimum wage. I think many of the individual restaurants that have tried to make the switch have not been successful and switched back.

I think it might be a bit like going metric, everybody has to get on board, i.e., all restaurants in the area have to do it. I wonder if non-tippers are a factor, meals are cheaper if you don't tip or have it included in the price.

[Patty Hann]

I think it might be a bit like going metric, everybody has to get on board, i.e., all restaurants in the area have to do it. I wonder if non-tippers are a factor, meals are cheaper if you don't tip or have it included in the price.
Yep...everyone has to play by the same rules or it won't work.
Simple economics: Increase the pay of your workers so tipping isn't necessary. That increase has to come from somewhere, so the prices go up.
Business falls off because some customers won't come back. With less business the owner has to let some workers go.
Remaining workers have to work harder during peak hours and there are no tips to compensate for that.

[Edward Weber]

Yep...everyone has to play by the same rules or it won't work.
Simple economics: Increase the pay of your workers so tipping isn't necessary. That increase has to come from somewhere, so the prices go up.
Business falls off because some customers won't come back. With less business the owner has to let some workers go.
Remaining workers have to work harder during peak hours and there are no tips to compensate for that.

That's the problem, "people" are too stupid to understand that paying a little more for the meal and not tipping, gets them a less expensive meal in the end AND the waiter/waitress has a wage they can count on without a tip.
Why on earth would I go back to that restaurant prices are too high. :rolleyes:

I know it would only work if most people got on board and that's why it won't happen and why we have Incessant Fee’s, tip pandering, and Shrinkflation.

The math works, people are the problem

[mike stenson]

Eh, it's the same as not including taxes in a price. It's false pricing, and just marketing. It simply makes people think they're paying less.

[Brian Elfert]

Yep...everyone has to play by the same rules or it won't work.
Simple economics: Increase the pay of your workers so tipping isn't necessary. That increase has to come from somewhere, so the prices go up.
Business falls off because some customers won't come back. With less business the owner has to let some workers go.
Remaining workers have to work harder during peak hours and there are no tips to compensate for that.

If you have fewer customers there should be less work for the remaining workers.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

We took the Kids to the Olive Garden for the first time in over 5 years. I was surprised to see no beef on the menu. The annoying little computer on the table was something new as well. I yelled "stop" a little too loud as the sliding scale tip percentage and price calculator zoomed way past what I thought was a good tip. A compromise was reached at 23 percent and the young man got a $30.00 tip. I am not charging enough.

[Lee DeRaud]

We took the Kids to the Olive Garden for the first time in over 5 years. I was surprised to see no beef on the menu.
Not really sure I needed another reason not to go to Olive Garden, but there it is.

[Patty Hann]

If you have fewer customers there should be less work for the remaining workers.

Yes...but peak hours are still a problem...

[Patty Hann]

I rarely go out to eat....maybe a dozen times a year if that. No food delivery at all.
I cook my own...both healthier and cheaper, by far.
So whatever way the tipping or non-tipping goes I will deal with it.
I tip a minimum of 20%...25% is the service is exceptionally good.

So one of my "dining out days" is coming up on 11 Nov... a lot of [chain] restaurants have a "free meal" for veterans.
I'll probably hit the IHOP in the morning for breakfast, and maybe the Red Robin or Macayo's for dinner.
And yes, I will still tip based on the menu price of the meal, even tho' I didn't pay that amount for it.

[John Goodin]

On a positive note, Door Dash is adding a tip policy. If you don’t tip your order may be delayed. Hopefully, this is not offset by a decrease in the base rate drivers make.

I haven’t read every comment and hope I am not repeating someone.

[Brian Elfert]

On a positive note, Door Dash is adding a tip policy. If you don’t tip your order may be delayed. Hopefully, this is not offset by a decrease in the base rate drivers make.


That has always been an unofficial policy by the drivers anyhow. The drivers get to pick and choose which jobs to take. Many Door Dash drivers have said they will chose which jobs to take by which job has the biggest tip listed.

[John Lifer]

Is it lazy workers or a system that pays them less than a living wage so they must rely on tips to put food on their own table at home?

I just LOVE the stupidity of the 'living wage' argument. You have the ability to CHOOSE to work in a job that pays you what YOU think is a living wage. No one is holding a gun to your head to work at a sub par paying job. Yes, there is an argument that there aren't enough jobs, but that is a fallacy. There are plenty of jobs available. If you can't make a living as a waitress, add another job. Work 60 or 80 hours a week if life requires it. And too many folks just "NEED" that cable, big screen TV, that New car, that xbox for the kids" (last one is my niece, kids have an nice brand new xbox and big tv, but don't own a bed, just mattresses. How STUPID)

And In MY lifetime, most waitresses and waiters, and ALL fast food workers were TEENAGERS or close to it. Now they are 40 year olds.

[mike stenson]

Yep. Because that's the way having a service economy works.

Teenagers having those jobs only became common with the baby boomers anyway.

[Stan Calow]

That has always been an unofficial policy by the drivers anyhow. The drivers get to pick and choose which jobs to take. Many Door Dash drivers have said they will chose which jobs to take by which job has the biggest tip listed.

This is what irks me about this current tipping frenzy. If you have to tip before the service is even provided, it's not a gratuity for "good service", it's a bribe to get to the head of the line. When we order pizza delivery, our favorite place adds a service charge for the delivery and we opt to pay any additional tip in cash when the pizza shows up.

[Doug Garson]

I just love the humanity of:

If you can't make a living as a waitress, add another job. Work 60 or 80 hours a week if life requires it.
Is working 80 hours a week just to make a living really living? Sounds more like barely surviving in the richest country on the planet.

[Lee DeRaud]

I just LOVE the stupidity of the 'living wage' argument. You have the ability to CHOOSE to work in a job that pays you what YOU think is a living wage. No one is holding a gun to your head to work at a sub par paying job. Yes, there is an argument that there aren't enough jobs, but that is a fallacy. There are plenty of jobs available. If you can't make a living as a waitress, add another job. Work 60 or 80 hours a week if life requires it. And too many folks just "NEED" that cable, big screen TV, that New car, that xbox for the kids" (last one is my niece, kids have an nice brand new xbox and big tv, but don't own a bed, just mattresses. How STUPID)

And In MY lifetime, most waitresses and waiters, and ALL fast food workers were TEENAGERS or close to it. Now they are 40 year olds.
I'm trying really hard to come up with a reply to this post that doesn't either (1) raise my blood pressure to dangerous levels or (2) violate the TOS.
Here goes...

The undeserved moral superiority and lack of empathy displayed is truly mind-boggling.

I don't know how it works in NW Arkansas, but around here, those 40yo fast-food workers aren't spending income on TVs or new cars, they're spending it on rent and food. And it's typically their second or third job.

[Jim Becker]

I'm right there with you, Lee...100%

[Pat Germain]

Ditto, Lee. I grew up pretty low income. I'm extremely fortunate to earn a decent wage now, but it didn't come easy and things could have definitely gone a different way. I enlisted in the Navy to learn skills. Had I suffered from a physical ailment or disability of any kind, that would not have been an option.

I don't buy the old, "Poor people are poor because it's their own fault!" argument. I also don't buy the old, "Nobody ever gave me anything!" argument. Really? Obviously, if nobody gave you food, shelter and support as a child, you would not be alive. Nobody ever helped you get a job? Nobody ever taught you a skill which you used for getting a job? Even the skill of knowing how to study for school? Nobody gave you a safe place to live where you could study for school? Yeah, not everyone gets GIVEN those things.

There are many people in our country who grew up in dangerous neighborhoods under the constant threat of being beat up or even shot, attended lousy schools under the constant threat of being beat up or even shot and have no friends or relatives with wealth of any kind. It's pretty hard to pull oneself up by bootstraps when there are no bootstraps; or even boots.

Sure, when I was young most fast food workers and restaurant workers were very young. That's because older folks could get jobs in factories. Those factories are now gone. I graduated high school near Stillwater, Oklahoma. At that time, I could have got a job with a living wage at Mercury Marine, Overland Color Press, Schwan Hose, National Standard wire machining or a vinyl flooring factory. Now all those factories gone. Nothing replaced them. Nothing.

Also, as I mentioned earlier, even with a minimum wage job I could have driven a cheap car and rented a cheap apartment or house with friends while I went to school and paid cheap tuition at Oklahoma State University. Today, this is not the case. No more cheap cars. No more cheap rent. No more cheap tuition. Everything is expensive and a person can't live on $15.00 an hour in any situation. That's reality and it has nothing to do with buying luxury items.

[Doug Garson]

Years ago I read Warren Buffett's biography, if I recall correctly the title was Snowball. One of the things I remember from the book, not verbatim, but I think this is the sentiment. At one time the richest man in the world and, I think still in the top ten, said "When I was born I won the lottery three ways. I was born in the US, I was born with parents who understood the importance of an education and I was born with a brain wired to understand business, finance and numbers." So, one of the richest men in the world, admits he is not a self made billionaire but that he started with a big advantage from birth.
Not everyone wins the birth lottery, many are born into poverty, surrounded by violence with little chance of getting a good education. Many emigrate to Canada or the US as fully qualified professionals with families to support but are forced to work entry level jobs because their credentials are not accepted.

[Bill George]

I don’t understand Doug, Warren did not start with Million in the bank he started with common sense and some smart investments. Today there are people doing the same thing and starting with nothing. There are people all around the world literally dying to get to the USA to make their fortunes here.

I know a young man who lives far beneath his means driving a older car that is paid for and not buying big screen TVs and the like. He is 25 and has $40k in the bank all saved, not borrowed and looking to invest in real estate. He has got a good job and in the past worked more than one job to save money, he also has a lot of common sense.

[Doug Garson]

I don’t understand Doug, Warren did not start with Million in the bank he started with common sense and some smart investments. Today there are people doing the same thing and starting with nothing. There are people all around the world literally dying to get to the USA to make their fortunes here.

I know a young man who lives far beneath his means driving a older car that is paid for and not buying big screen TVs and the like. He is 25 and has $40k in the bank all saved, not borrowed and looking to invest in real estate. He has got a good job and in the past worked more than one job to save money, he also has a lot of common sense.

Bill, not sure what you don't understand but my point was that yes Buffett did not start with a million dollars but he did start with a good foundation by being born in a developed country (the US) with parents who understood the importance of an education and a brain wired to understand business, finance and numbers." Sounds like the young man you describe has a good work ethic, common sense and is willing to sacrifice for the future. That doesn't just happen like magic, my guess he had parents who instilled that in him and thus he also started with a good foundation, not everyone does. Hope this clarifies what I meant.

[Bill George]

The young man in question parents have zero money in the bank and out of the three boys those parents had he is the only success story.... so far.

[Doug Garson]

The young man in question parents have zero money in the bank and out of the three boys those parents had he is the only success story.... so far.

Now I'm the one who doesn't understand. Warren Buffett also started from humble beginnings, his parents weren't rich either, and became extremely wealthy. The young man you describe, started from humble beginnings and may someday be very wealthy. What's not to understand? Some people start from humble beginnings and succeed, some don't. Money in the bank doesn't equate to having good values.

[Pat Germain]

The thing about billionaires is although people think they're geniuses, it was mostly just dumb luck. Many people work very hard and get nowhere. Many people start businesses and also work hard and get nowhere. A tiny few work hard and become extremely rich. Dumb luck.

[Dave Zellers]

The thing about billionaires is although people think they're geniuses, it was mostly just dumb luck. Many people work very hard and get nowhere. Many people start businesses and also work hard and get nowhere. A tiny few work hard and become extremely rich. Dumb luck.

Seems like your signature contradicts your argument.

[Pat Germain]

Seems like your signature contradicts your argument.

I don't see that at all. If ten people are working hard to drill a well, maybe only one person actually hits water. One person got lucky.

[Tom M King]

Seems like it fits perfectly, to me.

[Tom M King]

My Father had a well boring business for some years after he came back from WWII. Sometimes we ate. Sometimes we didn't. Supposedly you get paid for the dig by the foot, but it's hard to collect a lot of it if you don't hit water. Absolutely luck in it, especially back then.

I do know a couple of people who have since gotten rich in the well business, but there was absolutely luck involved. One was just from being at the right place at the right time.

[Tom M King]

Where I live, there are a lot of people who can't read. If one is raised by parents who can't read, it's very hard to understand the importance of an education. A very few make it out of that, but some do. The majority, as I see it first hand, do not. This goes on for generations. Definitely the luck of the draw with parents.

I live and grew up on a river (now a lake) that was lined with plantations. The road named River Road now, that our road T's into, was at one time named Plantation Road.

[Bill Howatt]

You have to go by, what I'm sure they tell the students in the first day of medical school, "Everybody's different". To say that just because you are lucky enough to be born into a country where it is possible to succeed means everybody will have an equal opportunity to do that is false. Some people aren't as bright as others, some want to follow a path that is weak on getting financially rich, such as those in the various arts fields, some are bright but various things are just too stacked against them or they weren't given the personal ability to handle the social aspects of life.
If the thought behind all of this is that these people are unable to support themselves because of their own fault, well, you can argue that all you want. But in cases like this, I'm reminded of what a friend told me when I complained about income tax. She said, "You should be glad you are fortunate enough to be in a position where you have to pay tax.". Still don't like it but she's right.

[Erik Loza]

…around here, those 40yo fast-food workers aren't spending income on TVs or new cars, they're spending it on rent and food. And it's typically their second or third job.

This has been my experience as well. Here are two real-world examples:

-I bought a new-build 3-2 spec home in the burbs for about $135K, back in 2006, after I first moved to Austin. My mortgage payment was around $1,200/month, which I found reasonable and affordable. Fast-forward to 2023: The vast majority of my sales peers are in their 20’s and making what I would consider “above-average” income. More than I was making when I bought my house. However, they would probably have to pay somewhere around $600K for the same house, now. Most of them rent and have multiple roommates, in order to be able to afford to live in Central Austin. These are extremely hard-working folks, so “just work harder” really isn’t a thing. They travel a lot more than my wife and I do and also eat/drink out, more. So, they are definitely spending more money but also, there is a feeling in the background that, “No matter how hard I grind, no matter how many deals I close, I’ll still never be able to afford a house in the city, so why not spend money on enjoying life now?”. And I see that logic.

-Much of my sales territory has been rural TX. These are your 40 year-olds who are working at the local retail or fast food place and living paycheck to paycheck. It’s not a matter of work ethic. There is simply not much opportunity that offers more than $15/hour in these areas. The obvious solution would be to just move but in many cases, these individuals are tied down by being single parents or needing to stay in whatever area, due to caring for elderly/sick family members.

I don’t have any answers but believe it’s important to acknowledge that the cost of living and financial pressures today are not at all the same as what many of us faced, even 10-15 years ago.

Erik

[Pat Germain]

^^ Thanks for sharing that, Erik. It's an accurate reflection of how things really are here in 2023. I think many of us older folks assume whatever options we had when we were young are still there today. This is a very erroneous assumption.

My daughter and her husband live in Seattle. Her husband is an immigrant from The Phillippines. (The legal type.) They both did well in primary school and never got into trouble of any kind. They both went to college and worked very hard to support themselves while doing so. They currently have good jobs with good pay. My daughter is a video producer for a Venture Capital firm and her husband is an IT Professional. They have a nice apartment at the very edge of Seattle. The rent is more than the mortgage on my 4 bedroom home. They have no children and they get by, but there is just absolutely no way it will be possible for them to ever buy a home or even a condo in the Seattle area; not even the proverbial "Fixer-Upper". My daughter is so very disheartened by this. She has done everything right and she knows she is blessed to be able to get by in today's economy. She has looked very hard for positions in lower cost areas and has not been able to find anything. Unfortunately, all the jobs in her field are in big cities where housing is uber-crazy expensive. And there just aren't as many work from home positions as we might think.

[Doug Garson]

I don't have any answers but believe it’s important to acknowledge that the cost of living and financial pressures today are not at all the same as what many of us faced, even 10-15 years ago.

Erik
Here's a few clues:
Corporate profits are at record highs.
CEO salaries are at record highs
Worker productivity has increased at 3x the rate of worker pay increases

[Bill George]

^^ Thanks for sharing that, Erik. It's an accurate reflection of how things really are here in 2023. I think many of us older folks assume whatever options we had when we were young are still there today. This is a very erroneous assumption.

My daughter and her husband live in Seattle. Her husband is an immigrant from The Phillippines. (The legal type.) They both did well in primary school and never got into trouble of any kind. They both went to college and worked very hard to support themselves while doing so. They currently have good jobs with good pay. My daughter is a video producer for a Venture Capital firm and her husband is an IT Professional. They have a nice apartment at the very edge of Seattle. The rent is more than the mortgage on my 4 bedroom home. They have no children and they get by, but there is just absolutely no way it will be possible for them to ever buy a home or even a condo in the Seattle area; not even the proverbial "Fixer-Upper". My daughter is so very disheartened by this. She has done everything right and she knows she is blessed to be able to get by in today's economy. She has looked very hard for positions in lower cost areas and has not been able to find anything. Unfortunately, all the jobs in her field are in big cities where housing is uber-crazy expensive. And there just aren't as many work from home positions as we might think.

I am guessing the cost of living in the Seattle area is pretty steep. Move someplace cheaper. You can live in Iowa close to a larger town or city and get decent wages, 20 miles away and the small towns are very welcoming and the price for a house is much cheaper than living in the larger city or town. There a lots and lots of IT jobs because of all the Insurance companies and the like here. Un employment is like at 3.5%, lots of good jobs.

510114

[Dave Zellers]

I don't see that at all. If ten people are working hard to drill a well, maybe only one person actually hits water. One person got lucky.

Interesting. I take your signature more as a 'Work smart' phrase.

[Doug Garson]

I don't see that at all. If ten people are working hard to drill a well, maybe only one person actually hits water. One person got lucky.
Or one person had the technology to predict correctly where the water was.

[Bill Howatt]

I am guessing the cost of living in the Seattle area is pretty steep. Move someplace cheaper. You can live in Iowa close to a larger town or city and get decent wages, 20 miles away and the small towns are very welcoming and the price for a house is much cheaper than living in the larger city or town. There a lots and lots of IT jobs because of all the Insurance companies and the like here. Un employment is like at 3.5%, lots of good jobs.

510114
A problem is that while one person in the relationship is in a very "mobile" field, it may not be the case for the other person which can be quite limiting. Another one is the desire or outright need to be near family or even various activities. I do think that part of the housing crisis, either vacancy or cost, is due to the desire of people wanting to locate in larger cities rather than small towns or rural areas creating the supply and demand price increases.
I think the point is that the young lady and her husband have done everything right and they are still priced out of the market even with 2 jobs and no kids.
IMO, it is a case where the rich, whatever that definition is, can afford the city houses and condos creating a demand. Those that can't are forced to take less desirable housing and it is part of the widening gap with a reduction in the middle class.

[Pat Germain]

A problem is that while one person in the relationship is in a very "mobile" field, it may not be the case for the other person which can be quite limiting. Another one is the desire or outright need to be near family or even various activities. I do think that part of the housing crisis, either vacancy or cost, is due to the desire of people wanting to locate in larger cities rather than small towns or rural areas creating the supply and demand price increases.
I think the point is that the young lady and her husband have done everything right and they are still priced out of the market even with 2 jobs and no kids.
IMO, it is a case where the rich, whatever that definition is, can afford the city houses and condos creating a demand. Those that can't are forced to take less desirable housing and it is part of the widening gap with a reduction in the middle class.

And that's the issue. My daughter's husband could find a job in Iowa, for example; although the pay would be much lower. But my daughter has not been able to find any positions in her field outside of major cities. Of course, my daughter would find living in Iowa pretty horrific anyway. But you gotta do what you gotta do to get ahead. :)

[Brian Elfert]

I am guessing the cost of living in the Seattle area is pretty steep. Move someplace cheaper. You can live in Iowa close to a larger town or city and get decent wages, 20 miles away and the small towns are very welcoming and the price for a house is much cheaper than living in the larger city or town. There a lots and lots of IT jobs because of all the Insurance companies and the like here. Un employment is like at 3.5%, lots of good jobs.


The problem with a lot of the smaller areas in the Midwest is that IT pay sucks. I see lots of jobs advertised similar to mine in smaller cities that pay $50,000 to $60,000. The cost of living isn't that much lower than Minneapolis. A job like mine in Minneapolis should pay between $110,000 and $120,000.

The other issue with IT right now is IT unemployment is supposedly at 4.4% which is higher than the general unemployment rate. I am starting to see reports of major layoffs practically every day here in Minnesota. There are lots of IT jobs posted, but people looking for jobs say the IT jobs often stay posted for months without being filled. If you aren't up to date on the latest of everything cloud nobody wants you in the IT world. If you mostly do on-premise IT you can forgot about finding a job these days. I haven't seen a job posted in several years where they want workers to deal with Linux and Windows in an on-premises environment.

When my current job goes away around 2030 I will probably be unemployable. I will be 58 years old at that point and I'll probably have to live off my retirement savings until I can get Social Security and Medicare. Nobody hires anyone at age 58 for IT jobs. My father was damn lucky to find an IT job at age 60.

[Bill George]

I and my two sons are both in a skilled trade and Union. They can retire with 5 and 6 figure incomes at age 55 if they want. Youngest son and his wife earn way more than 100K per year. I did not stay in the trade so I did not get the full retire at 55 but thanks to an injury, I taught for 12 years and have that pension also.

In todays world you must constantly upgrade your job skills or your going to be flipping burgers.

Skilled trade people are in big demand, electricians, Machinists, CNC, HVAC/R, welders pipefitters and more but you must be willing to learn something new and get dirty. Oh and keep an open mind, places like Iowa the Dakotas, and other stranger places also have life. If you look at the rate people are moving into Iowa we must be doing something right. Aside from living in St Paul MN a few years and my time in the Air Force most of my 80 years have been in Iowa. There are more Insurance companies in Iowa than almost any other state. We have the best engineering college 20 miles from here and Collins Radio, John Deere and on and on. The Metro area where I live next to is 300,000 people and we also have a Medical School here, and in addition to the larger one In Iowa City at the University.

Added thought, Quality of life not just in Iowa but other less famous places. We don't have smash and grab (steal), so far no mass shootings. and gee you might need to drive 20 miles to get affordable housing to buy. Lots of not crowded parks and lakes no wonder we are getting more folks moving here.

[Brian Elfert]

Nobody wants IT workers in their 50s unless you are the definitive expert in your field. The thing is that person will have a job for life. They can basically name their salary and employer. They would get a dozen job offers every week.

I'm not that person. The rest of us peons will be lucky to ever find a new IT job if we lose our job in our 50s or 60s.

[Brian Elfert]

If I was ever to move out of Minnesota, Iowa would be way down my list of places to move to. I would somewhere with a warmer climate.

[Pat Germain]

I'm an IT guy specializing in DoD applications running on Windows and Linux. What helps me is my experience with these specific applications and the security clearances I have maintained since my time in the Navy. Lucky for me, my job can't be outsourced to India and no school teaches anything about the classified applications I support.

[Lawrence Duckworth]

510400..............

[Keegan Shields]

On a positive note, Door Dash is adding a tip policy. If you don’t tip your order may be delayed. Hopefully, this is not offset by a decrease in the base rate drivers make.

I haven’t read every comment and hope I am not repeating someone.

Haha that's not a bet I'd take.

[Lawrence Duckworth]

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