Grandpa's Miter Box help.

[Joshua Hatcher]

Good afternoon. New Neanderthal here. Today I have for you a question about where I can find information on what parts I might be missing off my grandpa's Miter box I've inherited. I want to restore it as much as I can to a usable state. It's a Millers Falls with a 1285C on the plate. I don't have it with me so I can upload what pictures of it that I was sent for reference. It has a saw but the saw looks in worse shape than the box from the pictures. Any help with it or where to look would be very helpful!

[steven c newman]

Related to....
508733
Remove the rust from the saw's plate....give the saw's handle a few coats of oil finish
508734
No. 72c ?
508735

I am sure someone will be along with a page from a catalog showing your Mitre Box & Saw..

[Joshua Hatcher]

Should I just hit up Sam's and give the whole thing a vinegar bath?

[steven c newman]

Ummmm...Nope. I just wire wheel things...as I can not do chemical soakings in my shop.

Re: The saw plate. Do you have an old "beater" chisel...that you can at least make a decent edge on? use that as a scraper to remove most of the rust...without the handle being on...then a tube of Auto-sol and some AL Foil balls...to shine the plate. As for sharpening the saw? Good luck...

Problem I have with using Vinegar? It never knows when to stop...and tends to eat too much metal...rusty or not, doesn't matter.

[Jim Koepke]

I tried to attach the Langdon Miter Box Instruction booklet but the file is too big.

It is available for download here > https://blog.lostartpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/setting-up-a-millers-falls-miter-box1.pdf

The 1285 uses a saw with a 5" plate. Miter boxes using a 4" plate are more common.

A short right up on the virtues of using a miter box are here > https://blog.lostartpress.com/2015/11/26/mitre-box-manual-a-free-download/

jtk

[Joshua Hatcher]

If I have to replace the saw where would I look for a saw that size or what kind of query would I place into Google for that information?

I got the pdf downloaded and printed! Thank you!

[Tom M King]

Disston made the saws for those. You can still buy them on ebay and such, but all Disston miter box saws don't work in that miter box. Take measurements of the back width and height, and get the seller to check before you buy one. I bought a really nice old one with a much nicer handle, but it doesn't work well in my Langdon-Acme.

[Jim Koepke]

The instruction manual has a list of what saws came with the various miter boxes:

508781

The biggest problem might be someone having given the saw too much set. This could cause the teeth to hit the guides causing all kinds of difficulties.

jtk

[Tom M King]

Too small of a saw back and thinner plate flops around in the guides too much. Only the correct sizes in all redirects works like it’s supposed to, as well as the height of the saw plate. The old nice 28” one I bought is too thin in both plate and back.

[Tom M King]

Respects not redirects. Can’t see how to edit on phone

[Joshua Hatcher]

How do I go about figuring out if the saw has any of those issues? Where do I go to learn about fixing it? I'm hoping the saw is salvageable. I'm going to get a tub of evaporust and get it soaking and scrubbed once I have it in my possession.

[Tom M King]

That saw is the right one that probably came with it. I was just suggesting to be careful if you decided to replace it. I never spent any time trying to bring back a rusty one but plenty of people have done it.

[steven c newman]

Also..IF there is any etch left on the saw's plate...a coat of Gun Blue Paste smeared over the area of the etch, then LIGHTLY sand that area until just the etch remains. Older saws will also have an etch on the spine. My 5" x 30" Langdon saw also had the Millers Falls' Triangle Logo (paper sticker) on the handle...right where your thumb would go, of course.

I tend to scrape down the rust first...then LIGHTLY palm sander with 320 grit to bring back the shine...then wipe down with a THIN coat of 3in1 Oil, to keep the rust away...

11ppi teeth are a bit too tiny for my eyes, so I try to send the saws out to be sharpened by a Pro.

There MIGHT be bearings in the guides where the spine of the saw goes through...give them a drop of oil, too...makes the saw glide a lot better.

Primer Gray and Cardinal Red for the colours of the box...

I recently posted a "how-to" of a rehab for my version.....Millers Falls boxes, IF there was a "1" as the first digit in the model number, were sold without a saw...

You could buy the saw separate from the box, as well....as a "replacement" in case something happened to the OEM saw... (Made by Disston as a No. 4 Miter box saw)
Disston also "Made Expressly for Stanley" Miter saws...but not the boxes. The mitre box makers would then tune the miter box to the saw supplied, before they sold the "unit" and would guarantee it against any defects....no saw, no guarntee...cheaper that way....

[Rob Luter]

I have a similar version, branded Millers Falls Acme/Langdon. The saw had a Millers Falls etch on it but it all but disappeared when I cleaned it up. Based on the photos you posted you have all the parts. It just needs a good clean and lube.


508840

[Joshua Hatcher]

Where do you send them to get sharpened? I definitely would like to learn but I'll be grabbing the lee nielsen practice plates or just some old saws off the marketplace to try on first.

[Joshua Hatcher]

I am definitely excited to get mine to look like your pictures. I'm even more excited to get to using it. It hasn't done work in at least most of my lifetime and probably more than.

[Joshua Hatcher]

Well I suppose it could be a local and not online place. I hadn't thought of that originally.

[steven c newman]

Currently I am also looking..as the last 2 places I took saws to.....one fellow died...and the other had to quit due to health reasons....and sold all of his Foley Sharpener tooling....am waiting to see IF that fellow can learn how to actually USE the machines...Piqua, OH. area...

Any ppi number higher than an 8, is too hard for my eyes to see.....and most miter saw ppis are 11, from Disston.

[Joshua Hatcher]

I live in near lafayette indiana. I'll just have to see about looking in the area. I have a dado stack that is also looking for a good sharpening. Hopefully I'll find a 2 in 1.

[Jim Koepke]

I live in near lafayette indiana. I'll just have to see about looking in the area. I have a dado stack that is also looking for a good sharpening. Hopefully I'll find a 2 in 1.

This is where asking around might help. If there are any old time hardware stores, a long time employee there might know. If you have a local give away classified ads paper there might be one listed there. Second hand tool sellers might know of saw sharpening services.

There is a local building supply dealer in my area who takes in saws for sharpening. A person comes up from down in Oregon every week or so to pick up and drop off saws.

Fortunately saw sharpening is not terribly difficult. The hardest part is keeping your file strokes consistent on each tooth.

Pete Taran does sharpening. He also has a web site with a great tutorial on saw sharpening > http://www.vintagesaws.com

On the top left there is a group of saws. Click on the one labeled > Library < It will take you to a page with different subjects. Click on the one labeled > Saw Filing--A Beginner's Primer < I printed it out and keep it in my shop for reference when a saw needs a bit of work.

jtk

[Joshua Hatcher]

Thank you so much!

[Tom M King]

I learned how to sharpen a saw after someone messed up my miter box saw. I have one of those Langdon-Acme miter boxes that I bought new, I think in 1974, but may have been 1975.

The guy that did my handsaw sharpening died in the late '70's, and I was told about someone else, so I sent several to the next guy. All the saws were screwed up. The miter box saw teeth were fine, but the plate was now out of parallel enough that if one end cut through something, the other end would drag metal. I ended up figuring it out myself, and have sharpened my saws ever since. That was well before there was an internet. I later found out the guy had pretty severe vision problems.

My 28" backsaw has been in this box since it was new, except when I was using it. I trimmed out the houses I built with it for over 3 decades before I ever found a power miter saw that I liked, and still use it sometimes when I don't want to make a big mess to clean up in a house.

The saw is second from the back in this saw box. You can see some reflections in it.

[steven c newman]

Maybe once I recover from Cataract Surgery..MAYBE I can see the saw teeth well enough....hard to sharpen a saw, when I see 4 teeth instead of one...even with Bifocals on me nose.

And..11 ppi over 28"...that is a LOT of teeth to work on.

I built the railings for my front porch deck using a Stanley No. 2246...attached to my Type 2 Work Mate bench.

[Tony Zaffuto]

I learned how to sharpen a saw after someone messed up my miter box saw. I have one of those Langdon-Acme miter boxes that I bought new, I think in 1974, but may have been 1975.

The guy that did my handsaw sharpening died in the late '70's, and I was told about someone else, so I sent several to the next guy. All the saws were screwed up. The miter box saw teeth were fine, but the plate was now out of parallel enough that if one end cut through something, the other end would drag metal. I ended up figuring it out myself, and have sharpened my saws ever since. That was well before there was an internet. I later found out the guy had pretty severe vision problems.

My 28" backsaw has been in this box since it was new, except when I was using it. I trimmed out the houses I built with it for over 3 decades before I ever found a power miter saw that I liked, and still use it sometimes when I don't want to make a big mess to clean up in a house.

The saw is second from the back in this saw box. You can see some reflections in it.

Maybe a dozen years ago, or so, I sent a dovetail saw to one of the internet “darlings”, that was the end all, be all, of hand sharpening. To make shipping easier, I removed the handle and just sent the plate. Got it back in a few weeks, expecting to have unicorns jumping off my workpiece. Unfortunately, this sharpening guru not only did not hand file, but he was full Foley and actually placed the plate in backwards, cut new teeth(not needed), filed and returned. Don’t remember who re-filed the teeth, but cam back correct.

[Joshua Hatcher]

Do you think you could link the post here for your rehab or send it to my inbox?

[steven c newman]

There is a sharpening service down in Arcanum, OH.

I'll try to look up the post(s) that I did on SEVERAL mitre box rehabs..and post them here...IF you want.

And..the Millers Falls No. 72c post:

Spent the $2, now the research can begin

Garage sale find for $2..details all I went through to restore it...

[Joshua Hatcher]

Anything that you think would pertain to this specific item I'll be glad to look at to learn. The I don't have experience so I must make that up with information and hard work.

[steven c newman]

Might take a few...this is what came home with me..for $2...
508912
A bit rusty..and the fellow had no idea where the saw went...
508913
details..
508914
up on top of the Guide Posts...there will be either a "F" or a "B" stamp...keep that in mind...when you put this back together, Front guide post..vs Back Guide posts
508915
Those red plates are bolted to the frame...LOTS of small bolts to keep track of...

508916
When I re-painted these plates, I did both faces...
508917
Usually a good idea to shine up the guide posts..and a drop of light oil on the bearings inside...
508918
Tear down: Would be a good idea to take a few more photos...just to see how this will come apart and go back together...
508919
Because there are a lot of parts to the swing arm...
Stay tuned..

[steven c newman]

508920
The swing arm had 2 sections...so that you could close up the posts to allow for a shorter or LONGER saw..good idea to remove any and all rust here..and give it a drop of oil.
508921
Had to remove the red plates, as that was the only access to the bolts holding the legs in place...
508922
The "King Bolt" needs a hammer to drive it out, and back in.
508923
Try to get the "box" down to this point, remove the rust..give things a shot of Primer, to keep away the rust...
508924
These were the bolts for the legs. wire wheeled the treads on the bolts, a drop of oil, then run the nuts all the way on.
508926
These were wire wheeled to bare metal, then a shot of Rattle can Primer...
508927
This is where those bolts will go...under the red plates...
508928
Waiting on paint to dry...

[steven c newman]

Having a tad bit of trouble, with pictures being slow to load..normal around here?

Swing Arm ( Schwing Arm?)
508931
The locking lever parts...this is where you will NEED a few pictures of BEFORE...to show where all of the parts were at...
508932
It is ok to primer this section..but leave the rest bare metal...
508933
This is the gib, where the saw stops after a cut...you do NOT want the saw to cut into that track. There is also a lever, where you can lock the arm in "swing" so you do not need to hold up on the locking lever, during a move...then turn the lever to lock, as it allows the locking pin to work..
508935
The quadrant Scale...be a good idea to clean it to bare metal, take a black Sharpie and rub across all the markings, and then sand again..leaving just the black IN the markings intact..
Stay tuned

[steven c newman]

508937
To set the stops, lay a piece of paper on top of the gib. Let the saw rest LIGHTLY on the paper, and then set the stops..
508938
There should be (mine is missing them) other stops, to where you can leave the saw raised all the way up, and also set the depth of cut for things like lap joints.
508939
Mine is also missing the length stops...which also held crown molding so one could miter the corners...
508940
Note on the guide arms: The wider slot at the top is for the saw's spine to slide through on roller bearings....but, note at the other end? The slightly wider slot is for the teeth of the saw to go through..as the "set" will be wider than the saw's plate...the distance between those 2 slots will tell you what size saw is needed..whether a 4" under the spine, a 5" under the spine, or as in Stanley 630 boxes, 6" under the spine.
508941
This one took a 5" x 28" saw...

[Tom M King]

I bought this one new off the shelf of the local building supply store in 1974 or 5. The saw has been kept in the box, but this has been sitting out when not on a job on a shelf in a step van, or in the tool storage shop. The weird looking thing to the left in the left picture is what keeps the saw up. It's a spring loaded pop pin I think. I've never had any of it taken apart. You can see the depth stop in the second picture all the way down in storage position.

[Patrick C Daugherty]

Do you think you could link the post here for your rehab or send it to my inbox?

Bob Page at Loon Lake Tools has resharpened three back saws and put new plates on two more for me. Professional work and reasonable price. Nice guy, he will tell you if the existing plate is beyond help.

[steven c newman]

More photo details...
508990
This is the saw guide release button, you'd raise the saw and guides up, until this clicks into place...to release, pull out on the knurled nut..
508991
This is the depth of cut stop...the point where it turns 90 degrees, fits under the top of the guide, and stops the guide from going any lower..
508992
On older mitre boxes like my Langdon No. 75...this is a release to allow the swing arm to "Schwing"...

508993
Frame is a 2-1/2. and takes a 5 x 30 saw...

[Joshua Hatcher]

That's very helpful. I got my hands on it today and the back of the saw and the plate are both slightly bent. I'm not sure how to fix that. The rust doesn't look as bad in person. It's still crunchy. However it doesn't feel deep.

[Jim Koepke]

I got my hands on it today and the back of the saw and the plate are both slightly bent. I'm not sure how to fix that.

It depends on the bend. It may only be in the back. If the blade and the back can be separated you might only have to fix the back.

That would make it easier to clean the plate with a wire brush. That would let you see how much work you have ahead of you.

jtk

[Joshua Hatcher]

How do you separate the back of the saw from the plate? Are there good youtube videos?

[Rob Luter]

How do you separate the back of the saw from the plate? Are there good youtube videos?

They're usually just friction fit. All my old Steel Backed Disstons were that way. Clamp the plate to the benchtop with the spine/back overhanging the edge. Using a piece of hardwood and a mallet, gently tap the edge of the spine to remove it from the plate. Work your way down the length with light taps to avoid bending anything.

[Tom M King]

On pulling out the knurled knob to let the saw drop:

I don't believe I have ever done that. All of the older carpenters that I hired back in the '70's and '80's had the same miter box. I never saw any of them pull the knob out either. A light bump with the hand on top of the saw is all I've ever done or seen done with them to release the saw from the raised position. One might think this would be more wear on the pin, but after several decades of use, mine still works just fine like that. You hold the saw tote with one hand, and bump it loose with the other controlling what it does on the way down.

All the moving parts do get oiled every once in a while though, including those plungers. All those old guys always blew the miter box off and oiled it before putting it back in their trucks. I've been one of those old guys for a couple of decades myself now.

[steven c newman]

Lets see...the pull out releases were a Millers Falls "Thing"

However..the Stanley versions (like the 346 and 358 boxes I have) have keepers at the top of the guides. Designed use a Trip that clamps on the spine of a saw ( good luck finding one) that when you would push the saw forward just a bit,,,it would "trip" the front keeper...allowing the handle of the saw to drop a bit...which forced the toe of the saw to raise up...which made the spine contact the keeper in the back guide post....releasing the saw. You can also just grab the saw in the middle, pull the saw up a tab...and the saw will release.

Some of the more worn Stanley boxes...just sneeze, and the saw will drop...."Hair Trigger"?

Some of the older Stanley boxes do NOT have bearings inside the guides...so..they would fill the guides with a bit of grease....guides are such that they will keep the grease inside the guides, as there is a lip inside.


Had to re-trim out a bedroom in my house,..between a trash can fire, and the Fire Department......so, a saw bench, and a GEM Mitre Box was used to cut the casing trims. The GEM can be folded up and stowed in a tool box until needed. Plus, it will use about any saw you have on site...

Stanley No. 150s are good...I also have a Millers Falls No. 116....have never owned a motorized Mitersaw, BTW...

Currently in my shop...I am using the Millers Falls No. 72c.....comes in very handy, lately...it IS missing a few of the "Bells & Whistles" and I almost bought this one...
509055
For $10...just to get the end parts...also made by Millers Falls, BTW. Had other things to buy that day...

[Tom M King]

Mine, and the three different old carpenters that worked for me back then all had the same Millers Falls Langdon-Acme miter boxes. I expect there may be some adjustment to those pins, but I have never done anything to my box but oil it and use it. I never used theirs, but my saw comes down pretty easily. I expect a lot of what I learned was from those guys. They're all long gone now.

[steven c newman]

Those knobs are adjustable....to where they barely hold to almost too much holding power....as the knobs thread on to the spring loaded posts...easy enough to set.

[Tom M King]

I figured they probably were adjustable, but I've never needed to do any adjusting of anything on mine expect for the saw depth stops after several sharpenings. My saw has stayed up and yet bumps down easily since I bought it new.

I think keeping things lubed helps. Those carpenters I knew back then had wooden boxes that they kept their miter boxes in, and there was a can of 3-in-1 oil kept in those boxes. I never built a box for mine, but kept it in a closed area on the built in shelves in my step van that I used back then.

[steven c newman]

509062

Contrary to popular rumour, I am NOT that short guy on the right....

Count how many Mitre Boxes are in the picture...

[Tom M King]

The guys that worked for me 48 years ago were not quite that old. Those might have been some of their Fathers or Grandfathers.

[Thomas McCurnin]

Bax Axe Saws out of Wisconsin has a blog on saw restoration, including an article on your particular Disson saw. I don't believe they do restoration of saws other than their own, but you can always ask.

[Joshua Hatcher]

Awesome I'll have to check it out. The saw that came with it has a Warrented Superior medallion. Is that the saw that came with it or one that got added later? Neither my grandpa or my dad are around to ask anymore.

[Tom M King]

I'll try to remember to look at mine today. The saw looks like the one that would have come with it.

[steven c newman]

The "H." on your Mitre Box is from H.C. Marsh....who was bought out by Millers Falls....

[Tom M King]

I went in the opposite direction today from where my miter box saw is. I'll try to get a picture of the saw tomorrow.