Electrical code and others… public access

[Charlie Velasquez]

Recent court case
https://www.republicreport.org/2023/federal-appeals-couraffirms-the-right-to-publish-the-law/ (https://www.republicreport.org/2023/federal-appeals-court-affirms-the-right-to-publish-the-law/)

One issue I have had in the past is having an electrical project that requires a city permit and must adhere to the city code and not being able to easily find the code.

In both my previous town in eastern Iowa and my current location in Des Moines the city code says something to the effect, “The city code of …. shall be the 20XX Revision of the NEC with the following adaptations.”
They list the adaptations, but not the NEC.
Until the last revision the National Fire Protection Association, the authors of the NEC and other building codes, denied free access to the codes. They sold the code books or online acces for $$, a lot of $$. So, the city would require you to follow the code, but not allow you access to read the code.
Our public library had one copy in the reference section, often in use. Anyone using the NEC infrequently knows with all the cross referencing finding what you need could take a long time. Our library had a sign up sheet for its use.

The court ruled since it is used in city law, the printing of the code (edit: by a third party- in this case public.resource.org) is fair use and can not be a basis of copyright infringement.

[Christopher Herzog]

NEC and NFPA books are a money making scam. They do an excellent job keeping them current knowing that you will have to pay $150 plus per book per update. Been out of the safety department for almost two years now, prices most likely are higher now, what can you buy that's not?

Good luck with your issue. One thing to consider is most general issues rarely change so an older book/version might get you what you need in a pinch. Technology advances get alot of rewrites, hybrid car chargers for residential for example, didnt need that much in the 90's....

Take care,
Chris

[Bill George]

I agree with Christopher the Code books are a Rip Off big time. The NEC was a useful code at one time but now its got completely out of hand. The last time I took the test the NEC was less than $100 but now its a rip off price.

[roger wiegand]

I haven't had any trouble finding the current IRC and NFPA codes for free online over the last 15-20 years. Never tried to look for or get the whole books, but have always found the chapters I needed. I never explored whether those sites were legal in terms of copyright before, but it seemed that some were hosted by city/state building departments.

[Bill George]

I haven't had any trouble finding the current IRC and NFPA codes for free online over the last 15-20 years. Never tried to look for or get the whole books, but have always found the chapters I needed. I never explored whether those sites were legal in terms of copyright before, but it seemed that some were hosted by city/state building departments.

That all fine but if your studying for the test you need to know the NEC like the back of your hand. Here you are allowed to put index tabs in the book your taking in for the test, Now the PV section almost requires a whole new book in addition to the main one.

[roger wiegand]

Good point. The chemistry, physics, and biology texts that kids in my area need to buy average $150-200 each, with a few pushing $400, while similar texts for computer science run only $50-80. I'd think the code volumes would sell in much higher volumes than any of those, and hence should be cheaper. Still, with a "dime novel" paperback now pushing towards $20...

[Brian Elfert]

The NFPA has had free access to the NEC on their website for a number of years. Now, you cannot print it, or copy and paste from it, but you can read it.

[Howard Garner]

There is always "Print Screen" as a last option.

Howard Garner

[Brian Elfert]

I think they may also restrict use of print screen somehow. Now, they cannot restrict use of a screen capture program as I have done it.

[Doug Garson]

If you want NFPA and NEC codes to be free, how do you propose to pay the people who write the codes along with their support staff?

[Charlie Velasquez]

If you want NFPA and NEC codes to be free, how do you propose to pay the people who write the codes along with their support staff?

Good question.
Who pays to write the laws on speeding, burglary, copyright infringement? city parking ordinances?

If the government needs building ordinances, go about it in the normally prescribed manner. If the government wants to preempt the NEC as a way to establish these ordinances, then subsidize the NFPA for their time to research and develop them.

But once the government adopts the code as an ordinance, to deny access or allow only limited access without paying seems undemocratic.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

Frankly, I don't give a hoot. Laws are supposed to be in writing and accessible to the public. I have believed for years that it was illegal just to refer to a private code without at least appending a copy to the ordinance or statute. I also have a problem with zoning laws being written in such gibberish so that only regular practitioners can figure it out. We have a constitutional provision requiring that laws can be illegal if too vague. The same should be true if the laws are so complicated that only the authors can figure them out. (like the 1700 page bill passed by congress that apparently only three people had actually read cover to cover. ) The organizations are welcome to their books and prices, but not if those books carry the force of law. Laws are to be available to the public for free. I have had to go to my local municipal office to look at ordinances, but at least most of the time, the entire ordinance was there for me to see. Ought to be the same for such codes.

Years ago, I read a local Pennsylvania town's ordinance concerning zoning for certain animal keeping. Their law actually referred to "the rules adopted by the Twin Cities Metropolitan Council" Asked the township secretary where to see that. She just had a blank stare. She called the township solicitor (attorney) and asked him where I could find it and what twin cities was it referring to. He didn't know. My client had been charged with violating a law against keeping a turtle as a pet. When we showed up for the hearing, the zoning officer who wrote the citation did not know where to find the actual Twin Cities Metropolitan rules, but had a printed pamphlet that said it contained a summary of the law. That was excluded as hearsay. Since no one could cite the actual rule, my client supposedly was violating, the case was dismissed.

Another local animal ordinance forbids the keeping of any reptile as a pet, unless the person has a permit from the state game commission. Except the PA state game commission has no jurisdiction over reptiles, the state fish commission does. So effectively, no one can get a permit from an agency that has no jurisdiction to give them.

A law should never be permitted to simply refer to the rules of a private organization to make that code have the effect of law, without also including a copy.

[Doug Garson]

If you want NFPA and NEC codes to be free, how do you propose to pay the people who write the codes along with their support staff?


Frankly, I don't give a hoot.

So you don't give a hoot about public safety? If you can't attract qualified people to right the codes, the quality of the codes will suffer and people's safety will be endangered.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

If you want to have a law. COMPLY WITYH THE RULES for such laws. Simple enough. A citizen should not have to pay $150 to find out if the law even regulates what he is doing. It claims to be a private organization, yet writes codes that are adopted as LAW all across the country. Many states have "open records" or "public records" laws that require such things be available to the citizens.

some 50 years ago, it was determined that a state court could not make a poor person pay filing fees for such things as a divorce or petition for child support. It is probably unconstitutional to make a person pay $150 to see what the law actually says. They figured out how to create this cockeyed system. Let them fix it so there is no burden to the citizens or public. They are also probably violating several anti monopoly statutes.

[Doug Garson]

If you want to have a law. COMPLY WITYH THE RULES for such laws. Simple enough. A citizen should not have to pay $150 to find out if the law even regulates what he is doing. It claims to be a private organization, yet writes codes that are adopted as LAW all across the country. Many states have "open records" or "public records" laws that require such things be available to the citizens.

some 50 years ago, it was determined that a state court could not make a poor person pay filing fees for such things as a divorce or petition for child support. It is probably unconstitutional to make a person pay $150 to see what the law actually says. They figured out how to create this cockeyed system. Let them fix it so there is no burden to the citizens or public. They are also probably violating several anti monopoly statutes.
You didn't answer the question, I don't disagree that people required to comply with a code must have access to the code. How do you propose the code writers get paid? I would suggest that if you are a professional electrical contractor, or an electrical engineering design firm, part of your toolkit should be a copy of relevant codes, buying them is part of your cost of doing business. Not sure of the best way if you are an amateur doing a home renovation, what do you suggest? Perhaps access to an online copy of the relevant codes should be included in the cost of your building permit?

[Lee Schierer]

Just for information:

The Electrical Safety Foundation (ESFI) (https://www.esfi.org/about-us/)is the premier 501(c)(3) non-profit organization dedicated exclusively to promoting electrical safety at home and in the workplace.

Founded in 1994 as a cooperative effort by the National Electrical Manufacturers Association (NEMA), Underwriters Laboratories (UL), and the U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC), ESFI depends on the support of community and industry stakeholders to provide funding for the development of new programs and resources throughout the year. ESFI receives funding from electrical manufacturers, distributors, independent testing laboratories, retailers, insurers, utilities, safety organizations, and trade and labor associations.

If you would like to view the NEC document for free, please follow these steps: Click on this link: https://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/all-codes-and-standards/list-of-codes-and-standards/detail?code=70 (If you would like to view the NEC document for free, please follow these steps: Click on this link: https://www.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/all-codes-and-standards/list-of-codes-and-standards/detail?code=70. Click "Free Access"). Click "Free Access"

[roger wiegand]

Sorry, but AFAIK, if you want a printed copy of any ordinances, regulations, or case law at the state, federal or local level you need to pay for the printing. Virtually all of that information is now freely available on the web, but if you want paper you need to pay, whether it's the 30 cents a page our town office charges for xerox copies or $100 for a code book. Traditionally the information was available by going to libraries or governmental offices, but if you wanted your own personal paper copy you needed to buy it. There are many exceptions to this, of course, but I'm speaking as a general rule (eg every state I know of will give you a paper copy of at least a summary of hunting and fishing regulations when you buy your license).

The information must be freely available in a commonly accessible format. These days the web provides that access to everyone, either through their device in their pocket or from the terminal in the public library. I don't think the government is, or should be, required to provide you the information in your personal preferred format, be that parchment scrolls or AI driven chatbots.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

IF, very big if, you want printed copies. Yes. If you want to be able to just read what has the effect of law, then access should be and in some states, must be free. We are talking about a book for which nearly every municipality in the country needs a copy, most inspectors need a copy and many Libraries have copies. Then several contractors and electrical apprenticeship programs and schools. tens of thousands of copies. If like some other 501-c orgs I know of, they make money on the books, make money on the shipping, etc. I checked ESFI's filing with the IRS, confusing to say the least.

[Lee Schierer]

IF, very big if, you want printed copies. Yes. If you want to be able to just read what has the effect of law, then access should be and in some states, must be free. We are talking about a book for which nearly every municipality in the country needs a copy, most inspectors need a copy and many Libraries have copies. Then several contractors and electrical apprenticeship programs and schools. tens of thousands of copies. If like some other 501-c orgs I know of, they make money on the books, make money on the shipping, etc. I checked ESFI's filing with the IRS, confusing to say the least.

As noted above you can read the NEC and other codes for free on line or speak with a professional and they will likely let you read their purchased copy. Most local libraries have copies of the codes and you can read them at the library. Since they are reference books you probably won't be able to check them out. I know our local library has a copy.
507986

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

As noted above you can read the NEC and other codes for free on line or speak with a professional and they will likely let you read their purchased copy. Most local libraries have copies of the codes and you can read them at the library. Since they are reference books you probably won't be able to check them out. I know our local library has a copy.
507986

That totally misses the point. If my town passes a law, they need to have a copy available to the public. If something is law in that town, they better have a complete copy for the public to read. Otherwise it violates the very idea of public records and public access to those records. Nobody should have to play hide and seek on google to find the provisions of their municipality's laws from some private organization.

If you wanted to read your town's zoning ordinance to see what set backs you need to comply with, and the town's law only said to see a Uniform code from the National Townships and Boroughs Association and did not have a copy to review. . Not the way government is supposed to be.

You look at the practice and over look the principle.

[roger wiegand]

That totally misses the point. If my town passes a law, they need to have a copy available to the public. If something is law in that town, they better have a complete copy for the public to read. Otherwise it violates the very idea of public records and public access to those records. .

Such access (across virtually all public business in the state) is mandated by the open records law in our state. All 50 states have enacted some kind of open record provision, but they vary in effectiveness. If your state doesn't have a requirement to make the full laws and regulations available you really need to get on your legislator's case to implement such a policy, as that would seem to be a bare minimum. (In the case of building and fire codes the Mass CMR incorporates links to free copies of the relevant NFPA and IRC codes, supplementing the paper copies available at the town building department and the public library. The CMR itself contains the full text of any variations enacted by the state to the published NFPA and IRC codes.)

[Ken Combs]

You didn't answer the question, I don't disagree that people required to comply with a code must have access to the code. How do you propose the code writers get paid? I would suggest that if you are a professional electrical contractor, or an electrical engineering design firm, part of your toolkit should be a copy of relevant codes, buying them is part of your cost of doing business. Not sure of the best way if you are an amateur doing a home renovation, what do you suggest? Perhaps access to an online copy of the relevant codes should be included in the cost of your building permit?

Part of the problem is that the vast majority of the people developing the code are employed by manufacturers. Thus are paid by the companies that stand to profit from the resulting code. GFCI, AFCI, on and on. They don't need to be paid twice. Those not so employed should be paid by the other people that benefit from the code, tax payers. Just like those folks that make all the other laws we live by. JMHO.

Just to be clear, the safety aspects of those items is not in question, but the usage demanded in the code is far in excess of that needed for safety in a lot of cases. For instance, my shop lights are connected using ceiling mounted plug ins. No reason for that to be protected by a GFCI, by the letter of the current rule they should be. Again, JMHO,.

[Stan Calow]

. . . No reason for that to be protected by a GFCI, by the letter of the current rule they should be. Again, JMHO,.

Ken, I thought part of the reason for the codes in general, and things like your example, is to protect the next person who buys your house. I know I dont trust an inspector to turn that up during a house sale. Is that thinking way off?

[Bill Howatt]

You will never win an argument that making something safer is not a good idea - even if the risk is low and a lot of the rules seem to be just "guilding the lily", i.e. making something that is good a little better even if it doesn't need it.
I don't know the rule you are referring to for your light circuit requiring a GFCI but it could be the "basement" requirement. I understand that nobody is likely to touch a ceiling fixture while shoeless on a basement floor (trust me, you never want a shock like that; worst one I ever got) but the time may come where it is a handy place to plug in an extension cord which makes the circuit accessible at floor level.
I don't think the rules have anything to do with the next house owner, they are to protect the occupants, whoever they are.