OMG Another "which jointer to buy ?"

[lou Brava]

Alright, I apologize in advance for this post ! After 6-10 months of shopping used & missing out on 1 decent used 8" jointer. I'm buying new & the thing I'm struggling with is a Jet or Grizz. ? The Jet is JWJ HH dovetail I can get it all in (+all day drive) for 2K which includes 450 for gas & mobile base. The Grizz G0490X all in for 2.3K that's delivered. I like the Jet for it's cutter head and price. I like the Grizz for it's parallelogram design. Common sense tells me both will do an excellent job. The jointer will be replacing (finally !) my TS straight line jig & planar sled.
I've read a lot about cutter head types & Jet gets the nod, but the dovetail vs the Grizz, Grizz gets the nod. Aside from machine performance noise & mobility are a concern, and Jet would probably be better due to an aftermarket mobile base. I think read too much about dovetail style "adjustment nightmares" that are making me waver on the Jet. Correct me if I'm wrong but the only time you ever need to adjust an outfeed table is if it goes out of alignment.
Since the jointer will be used in my (hobby) shop by me only with light use once it's set I would think I'd never need to mess with it. Any opinion comments will be appreciated.
Thanks

[Robert Hayward]

I would go with the helical head over parallelogram. Back when I was looking at jointers I also thought I needed parallelogram. Not sure why, just thought I needed that. Ended up finding a dovetail 10" Oliver with a Byrd head for just a little over my self imposed budget for a new 8" straight knife parallelogram Grizzly. Yes, I had to drive 500 miles round trip to get it but it was a fun drive going after a new toy.

Not having to mess with sharpening and setting straight knives is a joy to say the least. The Oliver came out of a yacht cabinet shop and I used the machine with the carbide cutters in the original Byrd position for a couple years in my hobby shop. One day bored with nothing else to do I rotated the cutters. Was a waste of time as the machine cut no different with a fresh edge than it did with the well used edges. I came from a 4" straight knife Delta Homecraft jointer that I lost sleep over going to have to change knives. Very tedious for me getting all the knives set correctly.

I set the outfeed table once when I first got the Oliver and have not touched it since. Infeed yes as I wanted to remove less or more stock. Dovetail jointer tables have been around for a long time for a good reason, they work.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I have had the G0490X for several years. It has the spiral cutter heads not blades. I have been happy with it and it has the parallelogram beds. It works well!

[Richard Coers]

Doesn't the ShopFox brand from Grizzly have a longer warranty? I know Jet's warranty is longer than Griz. If that makes a difference to you. I've been woodworking for 51 years, and have gotten along just fine with straight blades. Same for the generation before me, and the generation.......... You get my point.

[lou Brava]

Thanks for help, I'm not real concerned with warranty length & I also had it my head that a parallelogram was a better choice but after hearing conformation that adjust outfeed table once and that's all it would ever need puts that to rest. So maybe the Jet HH is a better option than the Grizz spiral type cutter. With that said I'm leaning toward the Jet, probably pull the trigger on one or the other this coming up Monday.
Thanks again

[Jim Becker]

I would go with the helical head over parallelogram.
Same for me. I'ver never adjusted the depth of cut on the jointer function on my jointer/thicknesser since I bought in in about 2005, so considering I'd likely behave the same with a stand-alone jointer, the dovetail vs Parallelogram design is not material to me as long as the tool is properly aligned. But that's me. Some folks do frequently adjust their jointer depth of cut so they might prefer how one design moves over the other. In that case, I'd likely make the opposite choice since the cut off a jointer isn't a finishing process...it's just for flattening/straightening...and the material will be further processed on both sides beyond jointing it flat.

Bottom line...make the choice based on how you anticipate you will actually be using the machine.

[Robert Hayward]

I've been woodworking for 51 years, and have gotten along just fine with straight blades. Same for the generation before me, and the generation...
Horses were the main mode of transportation for a lot of generations also. Not many using a horse as the main method these days.

I realize some people are comfortable and skilled at setting straight knives. My guess is most hobby type woodworkers are more comfortable rotating a carbide cutter. Carbide insert heads are in demand for a reason.

[Michael Burnside]

I am the opposite of Jim and Robert. I’d go parallelogram and upgrade the head at a later date. The precision and adjustment that locks the in/out feed of the parallelogram design is great. If you don’t change depth much then maybe it doesn’t matter, but I do occasionally. Easy to upgrade the head but not the fundamental design.

I would say long term HH is great, which my jointer also has.

[Ron Selzer]

I started with a straight knife jointer in 1982, never had a major problem setting the knives, adjusting the tables. Yes it took longer in the beginning than it did as I learned more about how to do that. Now have a Shop Fox 8" insert head Parallelogram jointer and a MiniMax 12" combo with straight knives. I enjoy the cut the insert head gives along with lower noise when using. I recommend insert heads when you can afford one and like the rest of the machine.
I had a bad experience with Jet back in 1988 and made them take a table saw back due to poor quality, so I do not buy Jet ever.


adding. I have bought a used Jet Jointer after the fiasco with the table saw, however I was able to look it over, check it and run wood thru it. I will not buy any Jet tool on faith, I need to see it and check it over first. I bought a Delta table saw and after unpacking it, I was very happy with it. Not 100% perfect, however it was of the quality I expected. I have bought from Grizzly numerous times and each time, the tools were as or better than advertised and expected.
Ron

[Warren Lake]

mennonites use horses around here or close by. have straight on my jointers and planers and been fine over 40 years on them Id like Tersa for the planer but at 7k for the head alone ill just change knives and hone them for now.

[lou Brava]

I am the opposite of Jim and Robert. I’d go parallelogram and upgrade the head at a later date. The precision and adjustment that locks the in/out feed of the parallelogram design is great. If you don’t change depth much then maybe it doesn’t matter, but I do occasionally. Easy to upgrade the head but not the fundamental design.

I would say long term HH is great, which my jointer also has.

Jim/Michael, Maybe I'm not understanding the depth adjustment on the dovetail style. I was understanding that once the tables are aligned/coplanar that you just leave the outfeed table alone, and the depth adjustment happens by moving only the infeed table. I would think that would be a very quick & simple operation, do you need to move both tables when adjusting the depth ?
The Grizz. does come with a "spiral" cutter head with 40 4 edge carbide inserts, the Jet has a true helical type head with 40 inserts. I think the head on the Jet is better design (but probably not by a lot), a bit quieter and with a good mobile base it will easier to move around. The Grizz has a built in base that gets mixed reviews.

[Robert Hayward]

You have the adjustment procedure correct for a helical head. The cutting edge on a carbide insert on a helical head remains the same distance from the center of the head. I know the cutters wear but that is most likely measured in the low hundred thousandths range. With the cutters staying at the same height the outfeed table does not need to be moved to compensate for a different diameter head.

With straight knives the diameter of the head changes each time you sharpen the knives or even remove and reinstall. Thus a need to adjust the outfeed table to compensate.

This is true for a dovetail machine or a parallelogram machine. It is the type of cutter head that makes the difference.

[Warren Lake]

if you want to do a spring joint and many do the outfeed moves. I can a whole job 10k whatever knives dont change, How many jobs can a hobby guy do?

[Michael Burnside]

Jim/Michael, Maybe I'm not understanding the depth adjustment on the dovetail style. I was understanding that once the tables are aligned/coplanar that you just leave the outfeed table alone, and the depth adjustment happens by moving only the infeed table. I would think that would be a very quick & simple operation, do you need to move both tables when adjusting the depth ?
The Grizz. does come with a "spiral" cutter head with 40 4 edge carbide inserts, the Jet has a true helical type head with 40 inserts. I think the head on the Jet is better design (but probably not by a lot), a bit quieter and with a good mobile base it will easier to move around. The Grizz has a built in base that gets mixed reviews.

Outfeed is left alone once adjusted properly with respect to the cutter. Parallelogram will give consistent distance between head and wings regardless of depth. May sound insignificant but this let’s you bite more material cleanly and safely while also offering more fine tune adjustments (at least on many parallelogram jointers)

[Warren Lake]

"With straight knives the diameter of the head changes each time you sharpen the knives or even remove and reinstall. Thus a need to adjust the outfeed table to compensate"

You mean the cutting circle not the cutter head

My cutting circle does not change with fresh knives, its set the same every time set up with a dial, knife tips to .050 above the cutter head. Another reason to set up the same cutting circle every time is feed rolls and pressure stuff is all dialed in. (at least on the planer)

[Myles Moran]

Same for me. I'ver never adjusted the depth of cut on the jointer...

Also throwing my hat in the ring here. My jointer is set it and forget it (aside from squaring of the fence when I'm edge jointing). Dovetails work just fine for me, and I would gladly buy them again. I'm very happy that I don't need to mess with a blade setting jig because of the carbide inserts.

[Ron Selzer]

I progressed thru different methods ending up with two pieces of wood with three magnets, of which one held the blade. fast, accurate, easy
Have a jig for my Woodmaster planer, bought from Woodmaster to set blades, fast and easy
Ron

[lou Brava]

if you want to do a spring joint and many do the outfeed moves. I can a whole job 10k whatever knives dont change, How many jobs can a hobby guy do?

Nice ! I had to look that one up I've never heard of spring joint. But the real question for this "hobby guy" is, how many jobs dose He want to do ? :)
Been breathing saw dust for over 50 years I retired 2 years ago & just putting together my "hobby shop"
I am now the "toy maker" & will do whatever I want when I want !

[Keegan Shields]

I owned the 8” HH Jet and it was a great machine. Better surface finish on the cast iron tables than my A3-41 and much nicer cast iron fence. HH is more important than the parallelogram feature. As Jim said, I never adjusted the depth of cut once set. Also, once the tables are adjusted to be co-planer, they should stay that way. The Jet model is the same as the older Powermatic 8” jointer.

I like Grizzly machines and have a few in the shop, but having set straight jointer knives, I much prefer a HH insert head.

[Andrew Hughes]

I bought a 8 jointer with a insert head when they first came out.
Ended up selling it on Craigslist after using it for 4 or 5 years. The inserts cut with a lot more feed pressure then straight knives. This make facing soft flexible wood nearly impossible to flatten.
I also had to shim the head because it wasn’t inline with the tables.
I prefer straight knives in a jointer because it’s a handfed machine.
Machines with bryd heads are very popular that makes them easy to sell.
Good Luck

[Mel Fulks]

Old jointers of the heavy mill-use type, will often remove 3/4 of an inch or 1 inch , in ONE pass. And the ones with the big “Ship Wheel”
will move up or down as fast as you can spin it. Those who run commercial shops usually need the big stuff. Those starting shops
should at least check out the “real stuff”.

[lou Brava]

I bought a 8 jointer with a insert head when they first came out.
Ended up selling it on Craigslist after using it for 4 or 5 years. The inserts cut with a lot more feed pressure then straight knives. This make facing soft flexible wood nearly impossible to flatten.
I also had to shim the head because it wasn’t inline with the tables.
I prefer straight knives in a jointer because it’s a handfed machine.
Machines with bryd heads are very popular that makes them easy to sell.
Good Luck

That's interesting, so now the 1st thing I'm gonna try is too flatten some DF or Cedar. Are you saying that due to feed pressure more down force is needed due to the HH & you end up pushing it flat prior to it getting cut, kinda like what a planer will do to a an uneven board ? I'm having hard time understanding why feed pressure would make a difference.
Thanks

[Andrew Hughes]

If the wood your using is thick enough you’ll be fine. I think everyone should try a insert head on a jointer before they make the change.
Good Luck

[Keegan Shields]

Insert heads use a higher angle (scrape) rather than a lower cutting angle that straight knives use. A higher cutting angle reduces the likelihood of tear out but also requires more (lateral) force to feed the workpiece over the cutter head.

Think of the force required to plane with a low angle plane vs. a hand plane with a 55 deg frog or a scraping plane.

I prefer an insert head to avoid tear out and for the durability of carbide inserts vs. having to sharpen and set knives. So I tolerate the increased feed pressure.


Given the option, I'd like to try a Tersa head - seems like the best of both worlds.

[Pat Germain]

My advice is to not bog yourself down with the proverbial analysis paralysis. Either 8" jointer will serve you well. Select the one which is easiest to get into your shop and working. Many years ago, after much hand-wringing and researching until my eyes were bleeding, I ended up buying the Shop Fox 8" jointer simply because Northern Tool would deliver it to my driveway at a very reasonable price. Turned out to be a good choice. I'm still using that same jointer. In fact I used it just last weekend after many years of sitting idle. Worked perfectly. I think I rotated the factory knives once.

My take is any 8" jointer which is in your shop and working for you right now beats ten future, theoretical jointers.

[Michael Burnside]

That's sound advice Pat. I completely agree.

[Mel Fulks]

Some fine machines are sold new with poor quality knives . I was told ,years ago ,that it’s because the manufacturers all do it. So it’s OK.
High quality knives cut well. Try a good set of real high-speed knives, less tear-out. Knives that are called “sharp”….but leave a
surface with striations are standard in most machines, and striations made by new ,or just sharpened knives is a sure sign of low grade
steel. Use T-1

[roger wiegand]

mennonites use horses around here or close by. have straight on my jointers and planers and been fine over 40 years on them Id like Tersa for the planer but at 7k for the head alone ill just change knives and hone them for now.

In the Amish moulding shop I visited a couple weeks ago they were using segmented cutter heads. And an elaborate hydraulic drive system powered by a diesel pump to avoid using mains powered electric motors.

[mike stenson]

In the Amish moulding shop I visited a couple weeks ago they were using segmented cutter heads. And an elaborate hydraulic drive system powered by a diesel pump to avoid using mains powered electric motors.

Pretty much the same as every Amish shop I've seen. The furniture I've seen for sale at stores was clearly all machine made. It's just business.

[Pat Germain]

Pretty much the same as every Amish shop I've seen. The furniture I've seen for sale at stores was clearly all machine made. It's just business.

I don't think there's any way the Amish or anyone else to run a successful furniture business with no power tools. I have an Amish made dining set. Clearly it's machine made, but it's made really well. It's all maple. No plywood, no particle board. When my wife wanted to buy a dining set last year, I didn't see anything else like it. I got a hefty discount because it had suffered damage during transport.

Yes, I could have eventually made a dining set. But we had just moved into a new house and I'm still trying to get my wood shop up and running again. Had I asked my wife to wait, the divorce would have delayed things even more. :-)

[Michael Rutman]

That seems like a lot to spend to get only 8". I realize the jump up from 8" to 10" or 12" is a lot more, but once you've decided to sink $2K+ into a tool, you might want to consider if it's going to limit you. I splurged to get 12" and never regretted the extra cost. At this point I realize that if I'd made the 8" decision I'd have been frustrated and angry a lot.

Everyone's budget and needs are different, just wanted to pipe in and say you might want to consider if you'll be happy with $2K for only 8".

[lou Brava]

That seems like a lot to spend to get only 8".
.

That's what She said :)
I know 2K is a lot, I considered selling my bench top planer & buying a 12" combo Jointer/planer but that would put me over 3K out of pocket. My original self imposed "used jointer" budget was 1.5K after months & months of seeing 2-20 year old machines selling for 200 or 300 bucks cheaper than new I gave up & just ordered the Jet 8" HH yesterday. I'm just an old retired guy, if I was planning on trying to make any money with my "shop" I probably woulda gone with a larger machine. Reality is the jointer will see very limited use in my shop but I can't wait to throw away my straight line jig & palner sled !
I wood work when a need is there if someone needs a table,bed, bookcase or whatever I'll build it I never tinker around or make something just to make something. So for me it's very hard to justify even 2K for the jointer but ya know YOLO right ! The 2K is also going to hurt my ski & golf budget but a guys gotta do what guys gotta do. I damm near dropped 550 bucks on a new driver last week but the jointer purchase stopped that one.
My "sage" advice to anyone still working is buy what you want while your still making money saving for retirement isn't all it's cracked up to be.

[Warren Lake]

Lou I only had a General 8" jointer from 81 till I got a larger machine and it never stopped me. If you build furniture that size will cover it. In patternmaking had one job where i needed 9" and so tricked the machine and fine but more work.,

Also then went and used the SCM in the shop of one of the germans that passed and it was easier no tricking but it made his wife cry each time i was there till I said I cant do this anymore as I upset you. Always had a good talk and she is happy and fine in her own home in her 90's. Years after I stopped using the machine we have kept in touch and she visited Germany to where he apprenticed she called and asked me to buy the machines and I did. They told her that the machines sitting in his unheated garage shop would be rusting and go down hill and it was the right time she was comfortable to let them go. She is happy where they are and me as well. I think of him each time I press start.

I could still get by with the 8" jointer but once spoiled by a machine at 1,300 lbs id never want to go back as the 8" jointer feels like a toy. It still works fine its just sound and weight and solid no light machine is like a heavy machine. Jointing 8 wide 2" hard maple 12 feet long was not fun on the general infeed out feed support is a must, the machine did the work well enough. The SCM is 14 and that is fine, it alows you to move around where you joint close middle far to even out knife wear but no one does that. It also allows to angle wood if wanted to get more shear cut so do appreciate a bit more width but still you can make a living making stuff with an 8" jointer and no one would know you worked on that or a 20 inch martin but you.

[Michael Burnside]

Iou, personally I think 2K is reasonable for an 8" jointer. A 12" jointer/planer is a terrible waste of money IMHO. A 12" planer is too small and 12" jointer is too wide most of the time. I personally never joint wider boards than around 6'ish" because anything wider and you risk having problems with wood movement. If you want a 12" jointer, go nuts, but don't buy a combo unit if you do.

The difference between 6" and 8" is a huge step, while 8" to 12" is 99.9% bragging rights and remembering to move the fence more so you wear the blades evenly LOL

[Jim Becker]

A 12" jointer/planer is a terrible waste of money IMHO. A 12" planer is too small and 12" jointer is too wide most of the time.
Hah! I agree that 12" for thicknessing is pretty limiting, but there is no such thing as "too wide" when it comes to a jointer specifically. ;) While that extra width might not be needed a lot for flattening many boards, depending on one's preferences, the extra width allows for skewing the material when necessary to get a better surface with "difficult" wood grain as well as jointing non-straight things. I only have 350mm (about 13.68") and I truly wish I would have gone 410mm (about 16") "back in the day" when I bought my combo. That said, the OP's budget is what it is.

[Pat Germain]

The difference between 6" and 8" is a huge step, while 8" to 12" is 99.9% bragging rights and remembering to move the fence more so you wear the blades evenly LOL

It is pretty cool to have an aircraft carrier in the shop, but yeah, I suspect it's beyond overkill for most hobbyists.

[Jim Becker]

When space allows, I'd sure want "overkill" instead of "underkill". :) But one certainly has to be practical for their own situation.

[Michael Burnside]

When space allows, I'd sure want "overkill" instead of "underkill". :) But one certainly has to be practical for their own situation.

Agreed, but I'd vehemently argue that 8" is not underkill, which was my primary point. Ironically a friend of mine has a 12" Powermatic Jointer. While he doesn't regret it, he did tell me that if he keeps the fence in one spot on too many jobs he notices slight differences in the surface along the width because some of the blades are being used less. So, he has to remember to shift the fence around more often as his typical working dimensions are less than 12".

[Pat Germain]

When space allows, I'd sure want "overkill" instead of "underkill". :) But one certainly has to be practical for their own situation.

I don't know you very well, but I think I know you well enough to be aware you are pretty far beyond "most hobbyists". :)

[Jim Becker]

I don't know you very well, but I think I know you well enough to be aware you are pretty far beyond "most hobbyists". :)
What I said really isn't in conflict with that. I merely said that "too big" is not a problem like "too small" is when it comes to tools.

Now for me "personally", "I like wide boards, I cannot lie...." :D

[Mike Cutler]

As A hobbyist, I have a 6" Jet jointer bought in the late 90's. Like Jim, mine does not change adjustment, unless I've changed knives. It takes roughly 64th off each pass.
I've done some pretty big work with that jointer, but make no mistake, it is woefully too small. I use a carrier sled with my 15" planer a lot!! Just about every project has me making, or retrofitting, some type of a carrier board to compensate for the jointer being to small.
Minimum size in a hobbyist shop would be 12" wide for my needs. I am constantly jointing and planing boards wider than 8". I do not believe that helical cutter heads are a necessity, but boy they sure are nice, but so is a 27" dual drum sander.

To edge joint, or face joint, a 4' long board, a relatively short board, takes up 8' of linear space. Whether it's air space, or a jointer bed, doesn't make any difference. You just can't have a big enough jointer, or planer.

Someday, I'll refurbish and overhaul the 16" jointer I bought off Craigslist many years ago. I've fired it up a few times, playing around a little bit, but haven't really put in the work to make it usable. It's also a square cutter head, and it can take off material really fast. Those knives are a 3/8" thick. It's scary, but cool at the same time.

[Jim Becker]

Mike, I wonder if you could retrofit that cutterhead on the "aircraft carrier" to something more modern?

[Michael Rutman]

That's what She said :)
I know 2K is a lot, I considered selling my bench top planer & buying a 12" combo Jointer/planer but that would put me over 3K out of pocket. My original self imposed "used jointer" budget was 1.5K after months & months of seeing 2-20 year old machines selling for 200 or 300 bucks cheaper than new I gave up & just ordered the Jet 8" HH yesterday.

I believe you will be amazingly happy with the Jet 8". I found going from my Cutech to a Hammer A3-31 was eye opening. The jointer/planer went from never used to my most used tool in my shop. I was just surprised at how often I had to do 9-10" pieces, maybe every third project. It almost feels like a plot to throw in one piece that won't fit an 8" into every downloadable plan.

I also noticed that finding a used 12" machine is rare while used 8" are common. Then again, I don't look that hard.

[Mike Cutler]

Mike, I wonder if you could retrofit that cutterhead on the "aircraft carrier" to something more modern?

Jim
Yes, I can retrofit the cutterhead to anything modern, it's just a matter of finding a 16" cutterhead, and some pillow blocks. To be honest, I haven't really looked very hard.My woodworking has been limited the past few years,, but I'm starting to get back into it.
The few times I have played around with it, it sounds like a small single engine airplane in the garage, and even as rough as it is, it does a beautiful job.
The cutterhead assembly by itself weighs over 100lbs. and the cutter head alone is almost 40 lbs.

[Jim Becker]

Thanks. I was just curious because some of the old-old machines were cast in a way that likely made retrofitting a modern cutterhead a tough row to hoe.

[Warren Lake]

wont fit my combo as there is a mortiser one end and saw blade other end of the shaft