Hook tools and end grain

[chuck van dyck]

Hi all

I have recently been bitten by a new woodturning bug which is turning small tea cups and rice bowls in end grain orientation.

A bradford pear was recently limbed across from my shop and I grabbed some 4 - 5” dia pieces. So far really loving the lack of wood character as it really makes the form take the front, esp with all the warpage. Turning to around 1/8” from sopping wet seems to more or less dry overnight. Yea I dig warpage at the moment.

This has been incredibly hard going. Lots of failures, which is probably why Im enjoying it so much, but am considering tooling up for end grain work. Ive been hogging out with a 3/8” bowl gouge then finishing with the lathe spinning in reverse and doing final cleanup with a bosch hollowing tool and handheld gooseneck scraper.

Any recommendations here on a hook tool? Also been considering a hunter tool or one of those ring things but I kinda am liking the idea of a hook tool.

Thanks for lookin!

[Peter Blair]

I'm sure not one to ask. Several years ago I saw a cool vid using a hook tool. I immediately purchased one and when I went to use it I was too nervous to put it to wood. I eventually gave it to a turner here on this group. I would love to hear where this takes you.

[Richard Coers]

I've used the hooded tool from Woodcut on hollow forms. It took a bit to get used to it, and I discovered lathe speed had to be running pretty slowly, but it made a nice cut What I didn't like is trying to pull the long curls from the small opening. I use the Michelsen grind on a bowl gouge for open forms. It does an amazing job on end grain. What always surprised me is how open you can have the gouge. I keep waiting for a bang, never happens. For me, the vector grinding jig was the key. Never could get a good grind on that gouge by hand.

[Reed Gray]

There seem to be a number of variations of them. For the hooded ones with the chip limiters on them, I have one, and it always seemed to clog up instantly or it wouldn't cut at all. I do make a lot of boxes, and have found that I can get surfaces with NRSs (negative rake scrapers). I work with dry wood for the boxes. I would expect pretty much the same for green wood turned end grain. Biggest problem would be in deciding how many different profiles you would need..... I have a bunch of them, some for square corners on the inside, and some for a more egg cup shape.

robo hippy

[Barry McFadden]

I have used the termite tool from Oneway for years,, https://oneway.ca/products-category/turning-tools-handles/The%20Termite%20-%20End%20Grain%20Deep%20Hollowing%20Tool

[Bill Howatt]

I'm also a Termite tool user, I can't say that I do a lot of end-grain work but the Termite does the job. Takes a bit of getting used to like most things but once you get onto it, the tool works well. Have to admit the first time I sharpened it with the included stone and holder it seemed a little scary but went quite easily. I can't comment on how the finish surface compares with other tools.

[Neil Strong]

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I used to make my own hook tools before you could buy them. Here are a couple of links on how to make your own from masonry nails...

http://aroundthewoods.com/hooktool.shtml
https://www.westbaywoodturners.com/tutorial/hook_tool.htm

Some more on DIY... http://www.treecycler.org/hooks.htm

Michael Hosaluk showed me a HSS version that he had made for him but I haven't had a chance to try it myself as I rarely do end grain work myself nowadays. If I remember correctly, Michaels is HSS... https://woodturningtoolstore.com/product/hook-tool-by-michael-hosaluk/

Other sources of ready made hook tools... https://www.hiltonhandcraft.com/Catalog/WoodturningTools.html

Hook like tools used for hollowing side grain can also be used for end grain work.

Before other options came along I used the original Shepid Loop from Woodcut for hollowing for awhile and that could be used for end grain work but was a bit tricky... https://www.woodcut-tools.com/arts-and-accessories---5/8-pro-forme-hollower/Shepid-Older-Loop-Cutter-p492085589

I get on much better with Woodcut's later open sided Pro-Forme cutter... https://www.woodcut-tools.com/arts-and-accessories---5/8-pro-forme-hollower/Pro-Forme-Shafts-p492088033

With the Pro-Forme, I much prefer the non-Flexi shaft arrangement because the standard shaft have a scraper head that allows it to rotate in the shaft in various positions for shear scraping inside hollow forms.

Here is another one if you are feeling extra adventurous... https://www.woodcut-tools.com/arts-and-accessories---5/8-pro-forme-hollower/Daht-Cutter-p492088059

And, then you get into the replaceable cup tip tools of which there are many. The only one I have used is the Rolly Munro, which are getting to be expensive, which in my case hasn't got much use since getting the Woodcut Pro-Forme...
https://www.packardwoodworks.com/tools-munr.html

[chuck van dyck]

Hey all

Thanks much for all the experienced input. Will definitely be experimenting with the Michelsen grind, I think I get it. I grind free hand and it almost seems like a mix of the 40/40 and how I grind my DSG.

Neil, you have inspired me to give forging my own a shot. It is actually something I’ve been interested in for awhile knowing that Japanese turners still typically forge their own, as did many turners of other regions in the past. I’ll share of a few pics of what I have so far. I used a 3” cut nail for masonry. Did a few tests and it’s hard stuff. Annealed it, shaped it, quenched, and tempered.

Kinda shooting in the dark here with shapes but look forward to gluing it up and giving it a whirl. The little pear blank it’s resting on is the typical size endgrain work I like doing.

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[Peter Blair]

Can'e wait to see how it works! Tell me, how did you do the final tempering or annealing?

[Neil Strong]

Neil, you have inspired me to give forging my own a shot. It is actually something I’ve been interested in for awhile knowing that Japanese turners still typically forge their own, as did many turners of other regions in the past. I’ll share of a few pics of what I have so far. I used a 3” cut nail for masonry. Did a few tests and it’s hard stuff. Annealed it, shaped it, quenched, and tempered.

Kinda shooting in the dark here with shapes but look forward to gluing it up and giving it a whirl.


Looking forward to hearing how you go.

I used to make half a dozen at a time. Setting up takes as long as doing them, and of those two would be too hard and brittle, two too soft and two just right...:)

[chuck van dyck]

Peter, I used a mapp torch to get it super hot then allowed it to come back to room temp on a big chunk of steel as a heat sink. Then forged the bevel in some by drawing the steel out. Got it hot again and just made the hook with needle nose pliers. Did some quick grinding to make the bevel. Got it super red again and quenched in water. Let it get back to room temp then used a propane torch to heat it to a straw color and let it slowly come back to room temp. I’ve made some carving knives this way that have been great. Not the best edge retention but I always have a stone and strop nearby and constantly touch up. Same with my turning tools, hard ark slipstone constantly.

Neil, that is smart! It is a really fun process and a box of nails is cheap. Also I have more old files than I can count, which is typically good tool steel. Thanks for sharing the tutorials.

[Neil Strong]

Also I have more old files than I can count, which is typically good tool steel.



After annealing, I grind off all of the teeth and gullets + a bit more to get below any subsurface fractures in the steel from when the teeth were cut. Any fractures that remain are a point of vulnerability when the steel is hardened/tempered again.

[chuck van dyck]

After annealing, I grind off all of the teeth and gullets + a bit more to get below any subsurface fractures in the steel from when the teeth were cut. Any fractures that remain are a point of vulnerability when the steel is hardened/tempered again.

Makes a lot of sense! I actually had a file billet I was working on fracture and couldn’t figure out why it happened. Now I know. Learning much.

[roger wiegand]

I did a hook tool class with Alan Lacer a few decades ago, we made the tools in the class and they worked well. IIRC we started with a piece of O-1 rod. I eventually broke mine I haven't made a new one but have been thinking about buying the one from Michael Hosaluk. I believe Alan has both a description in one of his books and a video on making and using the hook tool.

[Neil Strong]

Getting the straw colour right is where under and over tempering happens. If I was doing any of this nowadays I would get one of those economy IR surface thermometer (not the medical ones) for getting the tempering temperature right.

With those you can closely monitor your progress toward 430°F or to whatever degree of tempering you prefer.

Even the economy model that my son uses for his pizza oven gets within a few degrees of accuracy and they are not very expensive and once you have one you will find it has many uses.

[Peter Blair]

Interesting info for sure Neil. if I did have the ability to check the temperature how do I decide if 430 is what I want or if there is a better temp. Is that based on the type of steel?

[Neil Strong]

Interesting info for sure Neil. if I did have the ability to check the temperature how do I decide if 430 is what I want or if there is a better temp. Is that based on the type of steel?

First thing, that 430 was a typo or brain snap, it should have been 450F, which would be better starting point.

Yes, Peter, the temperature you temper at will vary a little depending on the steel (carbon %) but, more importantly, it depends on your application. Some application need the steel to be as hard as practical and its toughness doesn't matter as much, while other applications need a tougher steel that isn't so brittle, like springs.

With the hooks we want them to keep their edge, which is provided by their hardness, but not snap because they are too hard and brittle. Having such a small cross section and using them the way we do, they are prone to snapping, especially the ones made out of masonry nails, so we have to pull back on the hardness at the expense of edge durability and push up the toughness so they don't snap.

With an IR temperature sensor (which I never had) you can nudge the temperature a few degrees at a time until you reach a happy balance between hardness and toughness that works for you and then replicate that precisely from then on with the same steel source. That was never possible for me back when I was judging temper based on oxidisation colour and if I got one in three right I thought I was doing well.

I suggest you start at 450F, anything below that is likely to be too brittle, and creep up from there until you find your sweet spot.

[chuck van dyck]

Those of you with experience using endgrain tools that hollow open forms from the middle out, do you turn in reverse? I’ve been experimenting with using a round nose scraper in a shearing cut with some success but its just a little too slow going and dusty. Working on the courage to try a small bowl gouge. A smooth pivot on my little 1221 seems like it would be more natural on the far wall of the bowl.

[Peter Blair]

Thanks for the info!

[Brice Rogers]

I have made a bunch of tools and cutters, including my own termite hollower. Like Reed, mine tended to clog up.

Some points of advice/suggestion for beginners. In order to see the steel change to a straw color when annealing, first you need to shine it up and remove any of the scale/dark areas. You are looking for the color to change from shiny (like chrome) to a light or medium straw color. If it gets too hot then it'll turn orange and eventually purple or blue. What you are doing in the process is taking the hardened cutter (which can be brittle) and slightly softening it. If you don't anneal it enough it'll be more prone to break but also is likely to keep its edge better. Alternatively if you anneal to much, you are taking out too much hardness and it'll dull more quickly. But slightly over or under annealed won't be a game changer - - just perhaps an annoyance.

When I'm heating my cutter to harden and quench, I usually use a magnet on a string. When it reaches the Curie temperature the steel loses its magnetism.

Some people like to quench in water and some prefer oil. O-1 steel is recommended to be hardened in oil. W-1 is for water hardening. Probably best to harden concrete nails and files in oil to minimize chance of micro cracks. I prefer oil.

[Neil Strong]

I have made a bunch of tools and cutters, including my own termite hollower. Like Reed, mine tended to clog up.

Some points of advice/suggestion for beginners. In order to see the steel change to a straw color when annealing, first you need to shine it up and remove any of the scale/dark areas. You are looking for the color to change from shiny (like chrome) to a light or medium straw color. If it gets too hot then it'll turn orange and eventually purple or blue. What you are doing in the process is taking the hardened cutter (which can be brittle) and slightly softening it. If you don't anneal it enough it'll be more prone to break but also is likely to keep its edge better. Alternatively if you anneal to much, you are taking out too much hardness and it'll dull more quickly. But slightly over or under annealed won't be a game changer - - just perhaps an annoyance.

When I'm heating my cutter to harden and quench, I usually use a magnet on a string. When it reaches the Curie temperature the steel loses its magnetism.

Some people like to quench in water and some prefer oil. O-1 steel is recommended to be hardened in oil. W-1 is for water hardening. Probably best to harden concrete nails and files in oil to minimize chance of micro cracks. I prefer oil.


Very good input there, Brice.

I will add just one comment. The heat treatment fraternity tend to use the term anneal to refer to the initial softening of the steel so it can be worked. After it has been worked comes the hardening process and finally the tempering process to partially reduce the hardness of the steel so that it is not so brittle for the purpose that it will be used for. It is during the tempering process that you see the surface oxidisation colours change. I know these terms get shifted around at times by specialists, but at the level we are working at it is probably best that we avoid that as it is easy enough to get confused without the terminology adding to our confusion...:)

The following webpage has more detail on the ... Difference Between Annealing, Hardening and Tempering of Steel (https://www.steelcorp.in/blog/difference-between-annealing-hardening-and-tempering-of-steel)

Normalising is another term that is used to describe heat treatment to remove the stresses inside steel after forging, etc.

If anyone wants to take a deep dive into any of this the Knife Nerds will get your head spinning with terms like Temper Annealing!!!...

https://knifesteelnerds.com/2021/08/28/how-to-thermal-cycle-knife-steel/
https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/06/17/annealing-part-2/

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

I have a ring tool and a hook tool, which like said above I am a little hesitant to try. Normally I prefer being shown how to use a tool.

For end grain boxes with straight walls, I have been using a skew chisel as a scraper. the point goes in along the side wall and plunge straight in. To level the bottom, I first use a 1/2 inch scraper and then a 3/4 inch straight chisel as a scraper. On softer woods, it really hogs out material. I turn a lot of yellow poplar and red maple. This works great for both woods.