Some electric cars have a road trip problem.

[Andrew Joiner]

https://www.npr.org/2023/09/10/1187224861/electric-vehicles-evs-cars-chargers-charging-energy-secretary-jennifer-granholm

Sounds like Tesla's have the least problems getting a fast charge. However on weekends even the Tesla charging station is pretty packed here.

[Bruce Wrenn]

Recently local TV station did a story on driving to beach for the weekend, a distance of about 130 miles. After arriving and spending the weekend, car needed to recharge. Only charger available was a slow charger. Recharge took longer than drive back to Raleigh. BBQ place about halfway to beach (Exit 364 on I-40) has a bunch of Tesla chargers in parking lot. Eat lunch while your car charges.

[roger wiegand]

I'm at about 14,000 miles of electric car travel which includes three 1500-2000 mile road trips. Charging has been a complete non-issue. Quick and convenient. This contrasts sharply to traveling with my F350 diesel and 24 ft trailer, where virtually every trip has drama related to finding a diesel-selling station that I can get my rig into every 210-220 miles.

Methinks these "news" stories about the difficulty of recharging electrics are carefully placed by entities with a vested interest in discouraging the transition. They just don't square with reality-- just as my tales of woe in buying diesel fuel don't square with what most truckers experience. Of course I wouldn't have those range anxiety problems either if Ford had deigned to give me a fuel tank bigger than a teapot.

[Mel Fulks]

I suggest buying a “ Babe Watch” , and where THEY ARE , there will be guys ready to work for free to show their utility. Be sure to
have lots of Snickers and Donuts on hand . It’s the low budget way to get free help .
People helping People while having good times.

[Jim Koepke]

Methinks these "news" stories about the difficulty of recharging electrics are carefully placed by entities with a vested interest in discouraging the transition. They just don't square with reality-- just as my tales of woe in buying diesel fuel don't square with what most truckers experience. Of course I wouldn't have those range anxiety problems either if Ford had deigned to give me a fuel tank bigger than a teapot.

It might be the "vested interests" have discouraged the placement of charging stations in some areas.

Here is a page with a map > https://www.govtech.com/fs/interactive-map-shows-every-ev-charging-station-in-u-s

A typical semi-truck has a fuel tank capacity of around 120 to 150 gallons, much more than a one ton truck.

I'm glad my HD 3500 Silverado has a range of ~650 miles. More if I don't give it the lead foot.

jtk

[Tom M King]

I know a number of people with EV’s that go where they want to with no trouble. One couple with a Kia does a lot of travel. We have RV hookups here that would do some charging, but even though we always offer to visitors here, no one has said they needed to.

There are aps available that make planning ahead pretty easy.

These days a lot of effort goes into disinformation that’s working for some.

[Tom M King]

The first thing I did to the diesel dually was put in an aftermarket replacement tank that holds 56 gallons. My fuel gauge stopped working 10 years ago. Now I use the trip odometer. I fill up every thousand miles whether it need it or not.

[Brian Elfert]

The Pepsi bottler in Sacramento, CA has a small fleet of Tesla semi tractors and I recall four chargers. The power utility had to bring in more power to the facility to run the chargers. They have a range of around 400 miles which is enough for their longest route. They have more Tesla semi tractors than chargers. A lot of the drivers make multiple runs per day so they can charge briefly between runs so they don't need to charge them all at once. I believe they plan to get more Tesla semi tractors as time goes on.

I watched a video recently about a full size electric coach bus that made a trip from California to Florida via I-10. The range on the bus with over 20,000 pounds of batteries is just over 200 miles. They spent as much time charging as they did driving. They used Electrify America charging stations which are not designed for 45 foot buses. The trip took something like eleven days. It also cost more to use public charging stations than it would have cost for diesel fuel for the same trip. The only way an electric coach bus makes sense right now is for short day trips where the bus can be recharged at the garage, or overnight trips of less than 200 miles one way where the bus can be charged overnight.

[Doug Garson]

It might be the "vested interests" have discouraged the placement of charging stations in some areas.
Not sure I agree, I think if you overlayed a population density map you would see the highest concentration of charging stations coincides with the highest population. This map has a red dot for each town. https://www.visualcapitalist.com/mapping-population-density-dot-town/
https://www.visualcapitalist.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/north-america-map.jpg

[Jim Becker]

The bottom line is that "currently" there are places where range anxiety and charing availability can be justified. But that's going to change as time passes. The uptake for electrified vehicles that use chargers (EVs and PHEVs) is ramping pretty quickly and there are many initiatives, private, local government, state government and federal, that are feeding additional charging capacity. Further, Tesla opening up their relatively robust charging network to non-Tesla vehicles and the adoption of Tesla's charger interface design isn't going to hurt. Like anything transformational, it's going to take time, and folks have to make careful decisions, particularly if they are a one vehicle household and travel a lot or they live where it's impractical or impossible to install their own home charging setup. Honestly, I would have purchased an EV a month ago if there was a non-Tesla option that met my own requirements now that we are a single vehicle household. While most of my driving is absolutely local, I prefer the larger size comfort and cargo capacity I have now, AWD and towing reasonably is a requirement. There just were not any options that met my need for a cost I was willing to pay. For personal reasons, I will not buy Tesla. Now if we had not moved to one vehicles (Professor Dr SWMBO is no longer driving for health reasons), the replacement for what she was driving (very little) would have been a smaller EV, probably a Subaru Solterra since that's "our brand of choice".

[Alex Zeller]

I'm at about 14,000 miles of electric car travel which includes three 1500-2000 mile road trips. Charging has been a complete non-issue. Quick and convenient. This contrasts sharply to traveling with my F350 diesel and 24 ft trailer, where virtually every trip has drama related to finding a diesel-selling station that I can get my rig into every 210-220 miles.......

I can only imagine what a nightmare it would be if towing with an electric truck. At least with diesel you can find stations set up for semi trucks that you can pull up to while towing an RV. Some of the charging stations around here were built with a small compact car in mind. A full size pickup without a trailer would be a challenge. With a trailer I would think you'd have to unhook the trailer, leave it in a parking lot sort of close to you, then drive to the charger. WHile it's charging you'd most likely walk back to your trailer to wait only to reverse the process.

[Bill Howatt]

You certainly wouldn't be doing it as laid out with the local Tesla charging station unless you wanted to block the whole row of chargers or blocking the access road.

[Alan Lightstone]

I'm going on 10 years driving Teslas. While it was a little more interesting driving at the beginning of that, getting a charging plug at home made it a non-issue. Then a Tesla supercharger was built on my way to/from work, and life got easier, and free electricity. No question many of the non-Tesla charging stations were often out of service. I used to try them all the time for kicks. The Tesla one worked all the time. Range anxiety (which was pretty silly at the time having 200+ mile range), vanished as my Plaid gets well over 300 miles on a charge (and can charge to about 350 miles before a pending hurricane, for example.)

The idea of mandating electric cars until apartment/condos have charging outlets for all the residents is folly. Why would any of those people buy an EV? That being said, I love having an EV, and haven't worried about charging in years.

[roger wiegand]

I was at the Lee Mills steam boat rally on Lake Winnipesaukee yesterday and thought you might find this photo relevant to the towing conversation and as an amusing contrast in technology. That's a Tesla model Y. Towing a 3300 lb boat trailer works for this guy, albeit with some trip planning as the range hit is substantial (about a 50% reduction). He has no problems hauling it around New England.

If you're towing with a Tesla you get used to unhooking your trailer to charge, though the number of sites with pull-through chargers is growing. Not that different from having to unhook your trailer to get into a regular gas station to buy diesel, which I've had to do frequently.


507577

[Alan Lightstone]

I was at the Lee Mills steam boat rally on Lake Winnipesaukee yesterday and thought you might find this photo relevant to the towing conversation and as an amusing contrast in technology. That's a Tesla model Y. Towing a 3300 lb boat trailer works for this guy, albeit with some trip planning as the range hit is substantial (about a 50% reduction). He has no problems hauling it around New England.

If you're towing with a Tesla you get used to unhooking your trailer to charge, though the number of sites with pull-through chargers is growing. Not that different from having to unhook your trailer to get into a regular gas station to buy diesel, which I've had to do frequently.


507577
Not that I need to tow anything, but it will be interesting to see how much a Tesla Cybertruck will tow. Of course, I'm about 300,000th on the waiting list, so gonna be quite some time till I'll know for myself.

[Doug Garson]

I'm going on 10 years driving Teslas. While it was a little more interesting driving at the beginning of that, getting a charging plug at home made it a non-issue. Then a Tesla supercharger was built on my way to/from work, and life got easier, and free electricity. No question many of the non-Tesla charging stations were often out of service. I used to try them all the time for kicks. The Tesla one worked all the time. Range anxiety (which was pretty silly at the time having 200+ mile range), vanished as my Plaid gets well over 300 miles on a charge (and can charge to about 350 miles before a pending hurricane, for example.)

The idea of mandating electric cars until apartment/condos have charging outlets for all the residents is folly. Why would any of those people buy an EV? That being said, I love having an EV, and haven't worried about charging in years.
Why would apartment/condos need to have charging outlets for all residents? If your range is say 200 miles and your daily commute is 25 miles you would be charging once a week and who says it has to be at home? Forget the last time I saw an apartment/condo complex with a gas pump. :cool:

[Dan Friedrichs]

Why would apartment/condos need to have charging outlets for all residents? If your range is say 200 miles and your daily commute is 25 miles you would be charging once a week and who says it has to be at home? Forget the last time I saw an apartment/condo complex with a gas pump. :cool:

If not for habitability code, there would be apartments without showers/tubs. The cost of adding an outlet is minor and serves a larger societal purpose.

[Allan Dozier]

I also have about 14,000 miles under my belt on a Kia EV6 and couldn't be happier. I have a 3/4 ton diesel pickup which I now use mostly just for towing or really big loads. Range is up to 300 miles so if I am driving from Charlotte to Raleigh for instance for a one day roundtrip I stop at a charging station for around 10 minutes. Typical around town and commuting is so simple since I charge at night once or twice a week. But one of the main reasons I purchased it was that we were building a second home in the mountains about 150 miles away. I now have a charger there too but even while we were building it and couldn't stay overnight I could plug in for a couple hours while I worked and had plenty of juice to get back. Now I can drive back and forth between the homes for pennies each week.
On the forum for these vehicles there was a recent post about driving an EV6 from South Carolina to Oregon and how uneventful it was.

[Jim Koepke]

Why would any of those people buy an EV?

The cost of driving a mile on fossil fuel vs the cost of driving a mile electrically.

When people are able to charge their car from solar cells on their roofs as opposed to paying for gas or diesel, there will be more EVs on the road.

jtk

[Doug Garson]

If not for habitability code, there would be apartments without showers/tubs. The cost of adding an outlet is minor and serves a larger societal purpose.
I would agree including a charging station in a new build is minor and would be a good selling feature and maybe should be in the building code for new builds, but retrofitting a condo complex with a few hundred units would be substantial and as I suggested, not necessary, since even if every resident had an EV it is unlikely more than 15 to 20% of them would be in use at any one time. My pushback on the earlier post was suggesting having charging stations for all residents was required.

[Alan Lightstone]

Why would apartment/condos need to have charging outlets for all residents? If your range is say 200 miles and your daily commute is 25 miles you would be charging once a week and who says it has to be at home? Forget the last time I saw an apartment/condo complex with a gas pump. :cool:
In your neck of the woods, the government feels otherwise and has passed this law effective 2021:

For new buildings, the city of Vancouver mandates:100% of new residential parking stalls must be EV-ready with Level 2 charging. Visitor parking is exempt.

Unless you have a charging outlet at home or at work, it's an inconvenience compared to an ICE car. And many people avoid buying them, or aren't happy because of that.

[Jerome Stanek]

In your neck of the woods, the government feels otherwise and has passed this law effective 2021:

For new buildings, the city of Vancouver mandates:100% of new residential parking stalls must be EV-ready with Level 2 charging. Visitor parking is exempt.

Unless you have a charging outlet at home or at work, it's an inconvenience compared to an ICE car. And many people avoid buying them, or aren't happy because of that.

Who pays for the electric

[Doug Garson]

Who pays for the electric
According to the bylaw "All costs associated with the infrastructure in the recommendations in this report are the responsibility of the property developer. Any revenues from fees to access the charging infrastructure would accrue to the building operator." so the end user could be required to pay to use the charger.

[Doug Garson]

In your neck of the woods, the government feels otherwise and has passed this law effective 2021:

For new buildings, the city of Vancouver mandates:100% of new residential parking stalls must be EV-ready with Level 2 charging. Visitor parking is exempt.

Unless you have a charging outlet at home or at work, it's an inconvenience compared to an ICE car. And many people avoid buying them, or aren't happy because of that.

This for new construction only and I think is consistent with what I was suggesting in post #20 ie no need to retrofit all existing buildings. Note I wasn't aware of this new bylaw when I posted.

[Alex Zeller]

The cost of driving a mile on fossil fuel vs the cost of driving a mile electrically.

When people are able to charge their car from solar cells on their roofs as opposed to paying for gas or diesel, there will be more EVs on the road.

jtk

People will need batteries to store the power before that can take off. Hard to charge a car at work with solar panels on your house.

[Jason Roehl]

People will need batteries to store the power before that can take off. Hard to charge a car at work with solar panels on your house.

Cost will have to come way down, too. A typical solar installation at a house of 5, 10, or even 20kW (in full sun, so not while at work like you mentioned) isn’t going to charge a car very quickly. And then the house won’t have much off-grid power, either.

[Alan Lightstone]

Cost will have to come way down, too. A typical solar installation at a house of 5, 10, or even 20kW (in full sun, so not while at work like you mentioned) isn’t going to charge a car very quickly. And then the house won’t have much off-grid power, either.
Peak power on my solar array is in theory 31.6kW. In practice, I never reach more than 24kW. It's a big array. I don't pay for electricity, they pay me for surplus.

My car charges at 48amps (11.5kW) and easily charges in a few hours. No batteries, and no off-grid power, as cost, as you said is crazy for that now. And Tesla's new Powerwall+ doesn't increase capacity (just charging rate), so that was a big thumbs down, unfortunately. One Powerwall can easily charge a car, but leaves very little if any for the rest of the house while doing that off-grid. The vast majority of people won't be off-grid, though.

[Stan Calow]

When the first gas-powered cars became commercially available, a cross-country network of gas stations didnt instantly appear either. It only took about twelve years for that to happen. The power of the marketplace.

If I get an EV, it will be because 95% of my trips are 50 miles or less. Anything out of town, I can rent a gas powered car if I need to.

[Bill George]

When the first gas-powered cars became commercially available, a cross-country network of gas stations didnt instantly appear either. It only took about twelve years for that to happen. The power of the marketplace.

If I get an EV, it will be because 95% of my trips are 50 miles or less. Anything out of town, I can rent a gas powered car if I need to.

In the old days before cars, hardware stores carried gasoline, as the farmer owned hit and miss engines used gas.

[Keegan Shields]

Some people are determined to hate electric vehicles...


Interestingly, there's an emerging market for electric tractors in agriculture. Why? They have 1/3 the operating cost of ICE tractors.

When I asked one particular farmer about the challenges associated with electric vehicles, he told me "for 1/3 the operating cost, we'll figure it out."

With any technology, some people are early adopters, most will adopt with the majority, a few never will.

[Warren Lake]

my saturn cost 2k, five years later and 76,000 kilos with tires and brakes and stabilizer links I have 3k into it. Gas averages 38 MPG canadian galons summer less in the winter. If i had bough an EV id pay some large amount of money, more in tax than I paid for the saturn and I could sell it tomorrow for 2k but wouldnt as the money saved put more machines in my shop.

Cost is more than just operating costs. On top the EV would have been through the same tire wise or more as they go through tires more at least based on what I read

[Patty Hann]

Some people are determined to hate electric vehicles...


Interestingly, there's an emerging market for electric tractors in agriculture. Why? They have 1/3 the operating cost of ICE tractors.

When I asked one particular farmer about the challenges associated with electric vehicles, he told me "for 1/3 the operating cost, we'll figure it out."

With any technology, some people are early adopters, most will adopt with the majority, a few never will.

Re: Electric vehicles in general....I'm willing to wait until they "figure it out".... and it would have to be most (if not all) the "its", not just a a few.
I'm not willing to be the guinea pig they figure it out on, especially where my money is involved.

[Jimmy Harris]

It depends on where you're located, but they can indeed be a problem in certain areas. However, if you know this ahead of time and plan accordingly, it's not something you can't work around.

This is one of those "problems" that few people will actually have to deal with and will become less and less of a problem as time goes by.

Most people who own fully electric vehicles right now have a good bit of disposable income. So I doubt very many are driving long distance road trips when they could afford to fly. If a road trip takes longer than two to three days, it's usually cheaper to fly anyway. And I bet most of them have an ICE vehicle in their garage for road trips anyway. Everyone I know who owns a Tesla also owns a German made gas SUV, which is a little weird, but okay.

My brother just took his Tesla from coast to coast (moved two months ago) and didn't have any issues. He had to plan it out ahead of time, but it wasn't hard with the apps they provide.

[Patty Hann]

It depends on where you're located, but they can indeed be a problem in certain areas. However, if you know this ahead of time and plan accordingly, it's not something you can't work around.
Most people who own fully electric vehicles right now have a good bit of disposable income. .

^^^THIS^^^...right there.
Most people in general do NOT have "a good bit of disposable income." They don't even have a "less good bit".
If they have even a little it goes to more immediate, pressing needs. No way are they going to by an "iffy charger available" EV.
Very often it is preferable to deal with the devil you know, rather than with the one you don't know.

"BlastPoint found in a three-part examination that people ready to buy an EV have an average annual income of $150,000. The median household income in the US in 2018 was $63,179, according to the U.S. Census. “Ready-to-Buys are typically professionals working in white-collar careers. Apr 30, 2021"
https://www.tdworld.com/electrification/article/21162919/evs-remain-mostly-out-of-reach-for-poor-americans

FWIW my income is a fraction below that $63179 ... no way am I buying an EV any time soon.

[Doug Garson]

Could it be that higher income people are just smarter when it comes to their money? Here's a quote from Consumer Reports on a comparison of the cost of ownership of EVs vs ICE vehicles. Note the average cost of a new vehicle in the US is $48,008 according to Kelly Bluebook.

"The nine most popular EVs on the market under $50,000 were compared to (1) the best-selling,(2) the top-rated, and (3) the most efficient vehicles in their class. For six of the nine EVs analyzed, the first-owner ownership costs are estimated to be lower than those of all three comparable ICE vehicles in their class. For all nine EVs analyzed, the first-owner ownership costs are estimated to be lower for at least one of the three comparable ICE vehicles. In many cases, the EVs matched or exceeded the performance of some of the top-performing ICE vehicles in their class. For all EVs analyzed, the lifetime ownership costs were many thousands of dollars lower than all comparable ICE vehicles’ costs, with most EVs offering savings of between $6,000 and $10,000. While new EVs were found to offer significant cost savings over comparable ICE vehicles, the cost savings of 5- to 7-year-old used EVs was found to be two or three times larger on a percentage savings basis.Overall, these results show that the latest generation of mainstream EVs typically cost less to own than similar gas-powered vehicles, a new development in the automotive marketplace with serious potential consumer benefits."

So maybe as Dylan said "The Times they are a-changin"

[Keegan Shields]

Re: Electric vehicles in general....I'm willing to wait until they "figure it out".... and it would have to be most (if not all) the "its", not just a a few.
I'm not willing to be the guinea pig they figure it out on, especially where my money is involved.

Haha me too. We would be classified as laggards when it comes to EVs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_adoption_life_cycle

[roger wiegand]

People without a lot of money don't buy new cars, chances are good that those who can't afford to buy a typical new electric for $35K can't afford to buy a typical new ICE car for $35K either, and so won't buy either. Doesn't matter that they might save money some time in the future, if you don't have it today, you don't have it (been there, done that!). It's one of the advantages of being rich that you can think like an economist and make the choice that will save you money over the next decade. A decade ago I put a bunch of money into solar panels, its turned out to be one of the better financial decisions I ever made, the return on investment is kicking the stock market's butt-- and we didn't even qualify for any tax credits on our panel purchase. Because it required a significant outlay of cash up front it was, and is, an opportunity largely unavailable to people without a lot of money-- just as participating in the absurd returns that the hedge fund guys bring in is way beyond my ability to participate.

That said, a year into ownership the advantages of an electric car seem overwhelming (financially it actually seems to be a break even because of our very high electric rates in MA, but the fastness, comfort, quietness, and ease of use are just amazing), I can't imagine a scenario where I'd go back. There's a ton of money to be made in the transition, so I'm pretty confident that the investments will be made to provide the required infrastructure. The John D. Rockefellers of 120 years ago are among us today figuring out how to plug in all those cars and get rich from it. Because of their relative simplicity electric cars will soon be substantially cheaper than similarly powerful and comfortable gas cars (they are already pretty much the same, not even counting tax rebates), with the spread of appropriate infrastructure I'd predict we'll see an inversion in the market such that 80% of vehicles sold will be electric before you can believe it. (somebody check me in a decade if I'm still around!)

FWIW, I found that as soon as I experienced the reality of using an electric as my everyday and long trip vehicle all my prior worrying about range anxiety and the inconvenience of charging stops just disappeared, becoming, as I said earlier, a complete non-issue, something I never think about now.

[Doug Garson]

I don't buy new either, last new car I bought was in 1973. But I wonder if some people buying a used car and financing it, reject a more expensive EV because it will cost $50 a month more in loan payments without considering it will save them $75 a month in fuel?

[Patty Hann]

Could it be that higher income people are just smarter when it comes to their money? Here's a quote from Consumer Reports on a comparison of the cost of ownership of EVs vs ICE vehicles. Note the average cost of a new vehicle in the US is $48,008 according to Kelly Bluebook.

"The nine most popular EVs on the market under $50,000 were compared to (1) the best-selling,(2) the top-rated, and (3) the most efficient vehicles in their class. For six of the nine EVs analyzed, the first-owner ownership costs are estimated to be lower than those of all three comparable ICE vehicles in their class. For all nine EVs analyzed, the first-owner ownership costs are estimated to be lower for at least one of the three comparable ICE vehicles. In many cases, the EVs matched or exceeded the performance of some of the top-performing ICE vehicles in their class. For all EVs analyzed, the lifetime ownership costs were many thousands of dollars lower than all comparable ICE vehicles’ costs, with most EVs offering savings of between $6,000 and $10,000. While new EVs were found to offer significant cost savings over comparable ICE vehicles, the cost savings of 5- to 7-year-old used EVs was found to be two or three times larger on a percentage savings basis.Overall, these results show that the latest generation of mainstream EVs typically cost less to own than similar gas-powered vehicles, a new development in the automotive marketplace with serious potential consumer benefits."

So maybe as Dylan said "The Times they are a-changin"

Someone who makes 2.5 times what I make is not necessarily smarter with their money.
The person either has a job that pays 2.5 times what I make or the "person" is a couple whose combined income is 2.5 times what I (a single person) makes.
Someone has to build those Teslas and maintain the machines that test them and all the auxiliary test and calibration equipment.
The Tesla engineers may make $155K, but I can promise you that no manufacturing technician makes anywhere near $155K, more like $75-$85K.
(And the robots that assemble them still have to be maintained by, yep, techs)

I have 2006 Corolla with 120K miles... it's paid for... it's been paid for since 2009 when I bought it ("used" with 18K miles on it) .
There is no way my financial advisor is going to be OK with me spending 50K on a car when I already have a perfectly good car; in fact, he would seriously question my "smarts".

[Keegan Shields]

When cars were brought to market, very few could afford them. Give it time, EVs will come down in price and a secondary market will develop for used EVs. Now that the larger car manufacturers are producing EVs, my guess is this price drop will accelerate.

[Zachary Hoyt]

I'm thinking about an EV when I need to replace my Outback. It's a 2013, so I hope it will be economical to keep driving it for a few more years, but it pays to think ahead as a one-car-one-driver household since there is sometimes not a lot of time when the shoe pinches, as it were. I've always been a used car buyer because that was what I could afford to pay cash for and I was saving all I could to buy a house, but now that I am here with the house all paid for my savings are creeping up again. Economically it might be wiser to buy another used Subaru, since I drive somewhat less than the average American, but it'll be a long time before used EVs are widely available, I imagine, and the incentives are mostly for new ones, I think. It seems like the road trip issue is a bit easier if you're just one car not a group traveling together like in the article.

[Patty Hann]

Local guinea pig (Scottsdale AZ)

SCOTTSDALE, AZ (3TV/CBS 5) — A Scottsdale woman brought her Tesla in for repairs. When she got the car back, a key system no longer worked and she couldn’t get Tesla to fix the problem. That’s when she called in On Your Side.**

Erine Erickson loves her Tesla Model 3 (https://www.tesla.com/model3). But these days, the EV stays parked in her garage. “It’s, you know, 3,000 pounds of metal in a parking spot downstairs,” she said.
Erickson’s problem started last month when the battery on her Tesla died. She took it to Tesla (https://www.tesla.com/), and they replaced the battery for free under their warranty. However, during the process, Tesla technicians turned off the key feature that allows Tesla drivers to supercharge their vehicles in 15 minutes. Erickson says she didn’t find out until she stopped at a supercharger station and could not charge her Tesla. “That’s when people saw me and came up to me and people were trying to troubleshoot it,” she said. “But nobody had ever seen anything like it.”
Turns out, Tesla had intentionally deactivated Erickson’s supercharger feature for safety reasons. Here’s why. When replacing Erickson’s battery, Tesla says they discovered that Carfax (https://www.carfax.com/) listed her car as having a salvaged title due to being totaled in a collision. As a result, Tesla removed the supercharger feature as a safety precaution.

If my car were [mistakenly] listed as "totaled", I'm pretty sure I'd still be able to buy gas for it. ;)

**local TV station that "advocates" for consumers with businesses that are reluctant, slow, or truculent in dealing with customer complaints.
So her ($40K? $50K) EV is unusable for a month, and only when she publicly shames Tesla does Tesla act to investigate the problem.

[Doug Garson]

Local guinea pig (Scottsdale AZ)

SCOTTSDALE, AZ (3TV/CBS 5) — A Scottsdale woman brought her Tesla in for repairs. When she got the car back, a key system no longer worked and she couldn’t get Tesla to fix the problem. That’s when she called in On Your Side.**

Erine Erickson loves her Tesla Model 3 (https://www.tesla.com/model3). But these days, the EV stays parked in her garage. “It’s, you know, 3,000 pounds of metal in a parking spot downstairs,” she said.
Erickson’s problem started last month when the battery on her Tesla died. She took it to Tesla (https://www.tesla.com/), and they replaced the battery for free under their warranty. However, during the process, Tesla technicians turned off the key feature that allows Tesla drivers to supercharge their vehicles in 15 minutes. Erickson says she didn’t find out until she stopped at a supercharger station and could not charge her Tesla. “That’s when people saw me and came up to me and people were trying to troubleshoot it,” she said. “But nobody had ever seen anything like it.”
Turns out, Tesla had intentionally deactivated Erickson’s supercharger feature for safety reasons. Here’s why. When replacing Erickson’s battery, Tesla says they discovered that Carfax (https://www.carfax.com/) listed her car as having a salvaged title due to being totaled in a collision. As a result, Tesla removed the supercharger feature as a safety precaution.

If my car were [mistakenly] listed as "totaled", I'm pretty sure I'd still be able to buy gas for it. ;)

**local TV station that "advocates" for consumers with businesses that are reluctant, slow, or truculent in dealing with customer complaints.
So her ($40K? $50K) EV is unusable for a month, and only when she publicly shames Tesla does Tesla act to investigate the problem.
I think that is more an Elon Musk/Tesla problem than an EV problem. I recall reading about a former senior Tesla mechanic/engineer who services and repairs Teslas. Some consider him to be the ultimate expert on servicing Teslas, people ship their Teslas across the country to have him do the service. Tesla refuses to sell parts to him so he salvages parts from Teslas that are written off or has copies of parts made by local machine shops. I've also seen videos of a guy who rebuilds wrecked Teslas and he can't buy parts from Tesla and they won't turn on supercharging for the vehicles he has rebuilt. Musk doesn't play well with others.

[Doug Garson]

I have 2006 Corolla with 120K miles... it's paid for... it's been paid for since 2009 when I bought it ("used" with 18K miles on it) .
There is no way my financial advisor is going to be OK with me spending 50K on a car when I already have a perfectly good car; in fact, he would seriously question my "smarts".

Agreed, I also buy used and keep them until they are no longer reliable or my needs change. I parted with my 1976 280Z in about 1988 when I needed an SUV. I'm currently driving a 2009 Murano, I considered trading it last fall to get a more efficient hybrid with some of the new safety and convenience features. Both the new and used car market was so overpriced that I'm still driving the Murano. So I'm not suggesting you get rid of a perfectly good car. But, when it is time to get a new (used) car, I think your financial adviser would agree, the smarter thing to do is consider the lifetime ownership cost not just the off the lot cost when deciding what to buy. The CR report found that most EVs both new and used, have lower 5 year ownership costs than comparable ICE vehicles.

[Patty Hann]

Haha me too. We would be classified as laggards when it comes to EVs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_adoption_life_cycle

Laggards.... HAHA...they (we) are the ones who like to watch what happens when "The Law of Unintended Consequences" takes effect (as it inevitably does).
In an earlier era we would have been called Luddites....(except I have no desire to go about smashing charging stations. :rolleyes: )

[Patty Hann]

Agreed, I also buy used and keep them until they are no longer reliable or my needs change. I parted with my 1976 280Z in about 1988 when I needed an SUV. I'm currently driving a 2009 Murano, I considered trading it last fall to get a more efficient hybrid with some of the new safety and convenience features. Both the new and used car market was so overpriced that I'm still driving the Murano. So I'm not suggesting you get rid of a perfectly good car. But, when it is time to get a new (used) car, I think your financial adviser would agree, the smarter thing to do is consider the lifetime ownership cost not just the off the lot cost when deciding what to buy. The CR report found that most EVs both new and used, have lower 5 year ownership costs than comparable ICE vehicles.
We shall see...when the time comes.

Honestly, I'm not anti-tech....I worked as a tech (mainly electronics) for 40 years, and 25 of those years in a calibration lab
(this is one type of equipment I used: Rohde and Schwarz (https://www.rohde-schwarz.com/us/products/test-and-measurement/analyzers_254772.html) )
I'm all for efficient renewable energy... I'd just like it to be fusion produced, is all ;).
Right now it's just a lot of stumbling around, trying to see what works and what doesn't and the efficiency, cost etc.
When they iron out MOST of the bugs (and if I'm still around) I'll see about changing from an ICE.

[Bill Dufour]

On top the EV would have been through the same tire wise or more as they go through tires more at least based on what I read[/QUOTE]
I understand the tire wear issue is mainly because of the way people drive a BEV. There is little engine and transmisson noise to warn the driver they are accelerating so fast. This means many get tire miles about equal to a supercar like a Ferrari because they are driving like one.
Zero to 60 in 3.56 seconds for a four door sedan? A Ferrari from several years ago is considered super fast at zero to 60 in six seconds. No wonder Teslas burn out tires with 670 to 1,020 horsepower while ferraris have only 615 to barely 800 horsepower.
Bil lD

[roger wiegand]

Are we to conclude from this that Ford, GM, Chryslers, Toyota, etc have never disappointed a customer with a poor warranty/service decision?



Local guinea pig (Scottsdale AZ)

SCOTTSDALE, AZ (3TV/CBS 5) — A Scottsdale woman brought her Tesla in for repairs. When she got the car back, a key system no longer worked and she couldn’t get Tesla to fix the problem. That’s when she called in On Your Side.**

Erine Erickson loves her Tesla Model 3 (https://www.tesla.com/model3). But these days, the EV stays parked in her garage. “It’s, you know, 3,000 pounds of metal in a parking spot downstairs,” she said.
Erickson’s problem started last month when the battery on her Tesla died. She took it to Tesla (https://www.tesla.com/), and they replaced the battery for free under their warranty. However, during the process, Tesla technicians turned off the key feature that allows Tesla drivers to supercharge their vehicles in 15 minutes. Erickson says she didn’t find out until she stopped at a supercharger station and could not charge her Tesla. “That’s when people saw me and came up to me and people were trying to troubleshoot it,” she said. “But nobody had ever seen anything like it.”
Turns out, Tesla had intentionally deactivated Erickson’s supercharger feature for safety reasons. Here’s why. When replacing Erickson’s battery, Tesla says they discovered that Carfax (https://www.carfax.com/) listed her car as having a salvaged title due to being totaled in a collision. As a result, Tesla removed the supercharger feature as a safety precaution.

If my car were [mistakenly] listed as "totaled", I'm pretty sure I'd still be able to buy gas for it. ;)

**local TV station that "advocates" for consumers with businesses that are reluctant, slow, or truculent in dealing with customer complaints.
So her ($40K? $50K) EV is unusable for a month, and only when she publicly shames Tesla does Tesla act to investigate the problem.

[Brian Runau]

I'm at about 14,000 miles of electric car travel which includes three 1500-2000 mile road trips. Charging has been a complete non-issue. Quick and convenient. This contrasts sharply to traveling with my F350 diesel and 24 ft trailer, where virtually every trip has drama related to finding a diesel-selling station that I can get my rig into every 210-220 miles.

Methinks these "news" stories about the difficulty of recharging electrics are carefully placed by entities with a vested interest in discouraging the transition. They just don't square with reality-- just as my tales of woe in buying diesel fuel don't square with what most truckers experience. Of course I wouldn't have those range anxiety problems either if Ford had deigned to give me a fuel tank bigger than a teapot.

Roger, how do you manage this when you drive father than the full charge on the batteries in a give day on a road trip? My wife and want to go electric, but being retired we rely on the one car for out of town trips, so.... Thanks brian

[Alan Lightstone]

On top the EV would have been through the same tire wise or more as they go through tires more at least based on what I read
I understand the tire wear issue is mainly because of the way people drive a BEV. There is little engine and transmisson noise to warn the driver they are accelerating so fast. This means many get tire miles about equal to a supercar like a Ferrari because they are driving like one.
Zero to 60 in 3.56 seconds for a four door sedan? A Ferrari from several years ago is considered super fast at zero to 60 in six seconds. No wonder Teslas burn out tires with 670 to 1,020 horsepower while ferraris have only 615 to barely 800 horsepower.
Bil lD
I agree that tire wear is high on Teslas. But I don't find it any different than it was on the many Lexus sedans that I had. I can see this on heavy cars like the Model S and the Lexus LS460. But on a Model 3?

I haven't seen a Tesla spinning its tires and burning rubber on the road, so I don't think that's it. And mine goes 0-60 in 2.3 seconds or less, which is stupid fast and potentially dangerous. It actually accelerates faster than a Formula 1 car (2.6 sec as they are more tuned for high end speed). On my last Tesla Model S with Ludicrous mode when you floored it you almost passed out. So not sure how making it quicker is safe. On my new quicker one would I actually pass out???? Needless to say, never floored this one.

[Patty Hann]

Are we to conclude from this that Ford, GM, Chryslers, Toyota, etc have never disappointed a customer with a poor warranty/service decision?

Let's agree to disagree on this.... you buy your EV and I'll buy my ICEV.

[Jim Becker]

my saturn cost 2k, five years later and 76,000 kilos with tires and brakes and stabilizer links I have 3k into it. Gas averages 38 MPG canadian galons summer less in the winter. If i had bough an EV id pay some large amount of money, more in tax than I paid for the saturn and I could sell it tomorrow for 2k but wouldnt as the money saved put more machines in my shop.

Cost is more than just operating costs. On top the EV would have been through the same tire wise or more as they go through tires more at least based on what I read
No question, for the metrics of your specific vehicle purchase choice, the numbers were in your favor. But that doesn't represent the market that EVs are trying to get into, at least for the foreseeable future. Folks who prefer lower cost, older, pre-owned are a different market. And just to be clear, it's a valid one for sure.

I absolutely agree with you about cost being more than operating costs. Everyone needs to weight that as part of their decision, even if their primary reason for choosing an electric vehicle isn't financial. That would be me, honestly, and my next vehicle likely will be an EV. The only reason I haven't bought one to-date is the general dearth of what I want in a vehicle being available in the marketplace that doesn't have the name Tesla on it.

[roger wiegand]

Roger, how do you manage this when you drive father than the full charge on the batteries in a give day on a road trip? My wife and want to go electric, but being retired we rely on the one car for out of town trips, so.... Thanks brian

Speaking only for Teslas, since I don't have experience with others. The navigation system in the car knows both where all the chargers are and how busy they are. You put in your destination and it plots a route that takes into account traffic, weather conditions (eg for less range in cold temperatures or driving into high winds), and elevation changes as well as your current state of charge and your driving history in terms of how many watt-hours/mile you typically consume for a given type of driving (city vs highway). In my experience it works very well and the predictions are accurate to 2-3%.

A third party program, A Better Route Planner, will do all of this for any electric car, with a lot more control than Tesla offers-- eg you can tell it you never want to go below 15% charge, or that you want to arrive at your destination with 40%. It will also factor in how heavily your car is loaded. I have used it to supplement the Tesla software sometimes, for example when I want to show up at my sister's house (no charger) with 50% in the tank. More often now I just add more than it asks for at my last stop or manually add a stop at the charger closest to her house. You can try ABRP online for free to see what the routing looks like for different cars, when you have an account it tracks your personal usage trends to map the routes. The Tesla software picks non-Tesla chargers only as a last resort, in ABRP you can prioritize your favorite charging networks.

In looking for an EV I'd suggest that charging speed is right up there with range as a concern for long trips. My car takes about 20 minutes to charge from 15-20% to 70-80%, which typically is the most time efficient way to charge (10 to 80 takes about the same amount of time as 80 to 100 because of the nature of the battery chemistry) That's about how long I need to get the kinks out between stints of driving-- roughly every 200 miles/ three hours. If this charging took 40 minutes (as it did in some other cars we looked at two years ago) that would begin to get tedious.

[Brian Runau]

Speaking only for Teslas, since I don't have experience with others. The navigation system in the car knows both where all the chargers are and how busy they are. You put in your destination and it plots a route that takes into account traffic, weather conditions (eg for less range in cold temperatures or driving into high winds), and elevation changes as well as your current state of charge and your driving history in terms of how many watt-hours/mile you typically consume for a given type of driving (city vs highway). In my experience it works very well and the predictions are accurate to 2-3%.

A third party program, A Better Route Planner, will do all of this for any electric car, with a lot more control than Tesla offers-- eg you can tell it you never want to go below 15% charge, or that you want to arrive at your destination with 40%. It will also factor in how heavily your car is loaded. I have used it to supplement the Tesla software sometimes, for example when I want to show up at my sister's house (no charger) with 50% in the tank. More often now I just add more than it asks for at my last stop or manually add a stop at the charger closest to her house. You can try ABRP online for free to see what the routing looks like for different cars, when you have an account it tracks your personal usage trends to map the routes. The Tesla software picks non-Tesla chargers only as a last resort, in ABRP you can prioritize your favorite charging networks.

In looking for an EV I'd suggest that charging speed is right up there with range as a concern for long trips. My car takes about 20 minutes to charge from 15-20% to 70-80%, which typically is the most time efficient way to charge (10 to 80 takes about the same amount of time as 80 to 100 because of the nature of the battery chemistry) That's about how long I need to get the kinks out between stints of driving-- roughly every 200 miles/ three hours. If this charging took 40 minutes (as it did in some other cars we looked at two years ago) that would begin to get tedious.

Thanks for the education. Brian

[Rick Potter]

About that woman in AZ that has the Tesla that won't Supercharge (charge at a Tesla Supercharger), that sounds to me like she got ripped off by a used car dealer on a totaled and 'fixed up' car.

With all the talk of electric cars burning up on every street corner, I can understand why Tesla would not allow it to be charged on their chargers. If there was a problem it would be assumed Tesla was at fault, when in fact it would be the person who sold a totaled car to an unsuspecting person. Do you really think ANY manufacturer would take on that extra responsibility? I don't.

I wonder if the car will still charge on lower powered chargers? She should be going after the guy who sold her an unusable car, not Tesla.

Too bad we don't have 'The rest of the story'.

[Edwin Santos]

Our family is a recent newcomer to the EV club having recently bought a Tesla Model Y. I have to say it's been a fascinating experience.
The purchase of the car was completely frictionless. I think we interacted with only one live human being the whole time, and that was only when taking delivery and for about 10 minutes. I asked the guy, what's the next step. He said drive away.

Yes, it cost some money to get the charger put in the garage, but on base I don't think a comparable new ICE vehicle would have cost much less in today's market.

One unexpected feature that I don't see being discussed much is my wife's perceived safety and security benefit of charging at home in lieu of going to a gas station. For years she has felt gas stations are magnets for creepy characters. She's been catcalled before, witnessed fights, encountered drunk people. So the idea of never going to a gas station again is just fine with her.

Another benefit is the regenerative braking. I think the whole idea and use of physics is brilliant. It takes a day to get used to it, but once I did, I wouldn't want to go back.

[Jerome Stanek]

Peak power on my solar array is in theory 31.6kW. In practice, I never reach more than 24kW. It's a big array. I don't pay for electricity, they pay me for surplus.

My car charges at 48amps (11.5kW) and easily charges in a few hours. No batteries, and no off-grid power, as cost, as you said is crazy for that now. And Tesla's new Powerwall+ doesn't increase capacity (just charging rate), so that was a big thumbs down, unfortunately. One Powerwall can easily charge a car, but leaves very little if any for the rest of the house while doing that off-grid. The vast majority of people won't be off-grid, though.

Your in an area that gets plenty of sun year round what about the people that live in the north. Hard to charge or sell back electric if there is none there.

[roger wiegand]

Your in an area that gets plenty of sun year round what about the people that live in the north. Hard to charge or sell back electric if there is none there.

Clearly if you live in Alaska you need a different solution, at least in the winter time. That doesn't negate the utility of the technology for the other 99% of the population. Solar PV works quite effectively in New England, if that's what you're thinking of as "north". Conveniently it produces more power in summer when the air conditioning makes for the highest bills of the year.

[Alan Lightstone]

Your in an area that gets plenty of sun year round what about the people that live in the north. Hard to charge or sell back electric if there is none there.
Agreed. But I was pretty impressed with the number of houses with solar panels I saw on a recent trip to Boston / Maine.

[Ron Selzer]

Guy I work with had a new roof and solar panels installed, west side of Columbus area about a year ago. So far he is running a surplus of electricity. Keeps the house at 68 in the summer. 1600+- sq ft 2 story, lives by himself. I have been after him to buy some electric milk house heaters and use them for heat in the winter. Just keep adding until his electric usage becomes more equal in the winter.
Ron

[Bill George]

You have here folks who are problem solvers and then the others. If not solar, wind, natural gas powered generator or what ever. I put in a small solar array after we went 4 days without power a few years ago. Darn batteries were the most expensive part!

[Steve Demuth]

I think you nailed it here, Roger. If you can affor a new vehicle, then the ownership and per mile cost of an EV is going to beat that of a comparable ICE vehicle, particularly if you're someone who doesn't trade up just for the sake of getting a new car every year or two.

[Ronald Blue]

Interesting experience here for one person.

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2022-rivian-r1t-launch-edition-yearlong-review-update-13-towing/

[Rick Potter]

That report is the second main reason I ended up buying a Tesla in May. Perfect illustration of infrastructure that is installed, but not maintained. Isn't Electrify America the system the Feds forced VW to install as a Billion$ penalty for their cheating on diesel emissions? If so, maybe no one thought about the maintenance issue.

Tesla's charger system (Superchargers by name) is mostly maintained pretty well and always growing. The car also can plan your route on a long trip, showing where to stop to charge before you even leave. On the way you can have it tell you how many 'pumps' at the station you are stopping at, and it will also tell you the capacity (speed) at which it will charge, as well as how many are in operation or out of service before you arrive. It also charges your credit card automatically through the app, without having to have a special app or card for each companies system.

This is why most manufacturers are going to the Tesla charging standard. Elon pulled that coup out of his hat while no one was paying attention. Manufacturers are signing up fast, because the other charging systems make their cars look inferior.

PS: If you are wondering, the first reason was that my model Y dropped over 16K in price from January to May this year. The third reason that put me over the edge was when Tesla opened a sales/service center within a couple miles of me.

I had two plug in hybrids for the last 10 years, and had already decided this one was gonna be full electric as my solar panels will make my normal driving free of fuel costs, except for the occasional longer trip when I have to use the superchargers.

PPS: The daughter came in and told us today that she saw a Shell station with gas over $6 a gallon. Daughter in law filled up today at the cheap place for $5.38 for reg. Yup, California. She lives in Texas and said it was $3.29 there when she left last week.

[Greg Quenneville]

Where I live both gas and electricity are expensive. We have a 12.3 kW solar array and just got a (non Tesla) EV. The car charges at home for free since we were exporting twice that much power anyway for a pittance, and the charger was included with the car.

Between tax benefits and not spending $600/month for fuel the car will actually pay for itself over nine years.

Interestingly, some state governments here are discussing a road user tax because they can see their fuel tax revenues about to start shrinking.

[Doug Garson]

Interestingly, some state governments here are discussing a road user tax because they can see their fuel tax revenues about to start shrinking.
Yeah, it's a bit of a double edged sword. Governments need to encourage the switch to EVs while at the same time figure out how to switch away from funding road maintenance using fuel tax revenues.
Here in BC you need to report your odometer reading when you renew your insurance and license plate. You get a discount on your insurance if you drive less than 5,000 Km/year (3,100 m/year). Wouldn't be hard to apply a fee for EVs based on total kilometers driven, perhaps factor in the registered gross vehicle weight.

[roger wiegand]

A road use fee, based ion milage abd scaled to vehicle weight/size and attendant road wear, makes total sense as a replacement for the gas taxes. Perhaps some of the states that that have seemingly opted out of road maintenance (PA, I'm looking at you) could catch up on their repairs.

[Bill Howatt]

We were always told that the fuel taxes maintain the road infrastructure but it all likely goes into a big pot so who knows where that tax ends up; not that it probably matters much in reality. Having EVs pay for road infrastructure use makes perfect sense to me.
The other thing I'm concerned about is the amount of money that will need to be put into the electrical infrastructure to support large-scale adoption of EVs. At my age, and the age of my current ICE vehicle an EV is very unlikely in my future. I have absolutely no desire to pay higher residential electric rates for infrastructure capacity so some EV owner can tell me how cheap it is to run their EV.

[Doug Garson]

The other thing I'm concerned about is the amount of money that will need to be put into the electrical infrastructure to support large-scale adoption of EVs. At my age, and the age of my current ICE vehicle an EV is very unlikely in my future. I have absolutely no desire to pay higher residential electric rates for infrastructure capacity so some EV owner can tell me how cheap it is to run their EV.

The switch to EVs isn't the only thing increasing demand on the grid. Here's a couple of quotes from a Financial Times article

"The estimated cost to repair the “infrastructure gap” ranges from $150 billion to $1 trillion, depending on what changes are made, according to the IISD.“The numbers are quite crazy,” said Darren Swanson, an associate at IISD in Winnipeg. “It just highlights the fact that there will be investment needed and that climate change is wreaking havoc on infrastructure itself, so the timing is quite urgent in terms of building resiliency.”
"The report lays out in detail some of the ways that climate change is already damaging infrastructure, such as when forest fires destroy transmission lines, or cause overheating in data centres, or when extreme precipitation causes flooding that buries substations and transmission lines.
The effect of such heat on the electrical grid draws less attention than coal exports or forest fires, but may be more consequential especially as Canada revamps its power generation in an effort to decarbonize the economy."
https://financialpost.com/commodities/energy/oil-gas/it-will-cost-1-trillion-to-repair-canadas-energy-infrastructure-to-handle-intense-weather

[Patty Hann]

Just saw this on the local news

TEMPE, AZ (3TV/CBS 5) — There aren’t enough public charging stations for the number of electric vehicles on the road....

According to the Alliance for Automotive Innovation, there’s only one publicly available charger for every 26 electric vehicles.
And while EV sales jumped 57% in the first half of 2023, the number of public chargers only increased 11%. Power and parking availability are challenges.

So will I be getting an EV any time soon? Ummmm.... no.

508841

[roger wiegand]

Yet more hyperbolic reporting from the anti-EV collaborative. Public chargers are used for well less than 20% of all charging, and a typical charge takes about 20 minutes, so one charger for every 26 cars sounds like plenty. In the real world of driving an electric I had to wait 3 minutes for a charger spot once in 15,000 miles of driving, using public chargers about 50% of the time. During the same time I've waited far longer for an open pump at the gas station when driving my truck.

[Patty Hann]

Yet more hyperbolic reporting from the anti-EV collaborative. Public chargers are used for well less than 20% of all charging, and a typical charge takes about 20 minutes, so one charger for every 26 cars sounds like plenty. In the real world of driving an electric I had to wait 3 minutes for a charger spot once in 15,000 miles of driving, using public chargers about 50% of the time. During the same time I've waited far longer for an open pump at the gas station when driving my truck.

Maybe where you live everyone has a charger in their garage...but not where I live.*** I have a 150A panel.
How 'bout that long drive [east] to Showlow through high country to go skiing at Sunrise?
Not too many chargers...and 6000 feet in winter is kind of chilly with no working car heater... or car.

*** From Motortrend Mag:
How Much Does It Cost to Install a Home EV Charger?
Most American homeowners will spend around $1,150 to $2,750 to purchase and install a 240-volt charging station. A good home charger costs $350 to $750 or so, while the typical installation runs between $800 and $2,000 according to Qmerit (https://qmerit.com/), a nationwide specialist in installing EV charging equipment. The price charged by an electrician for this work varies largely based on four factors: the cost of labor where you live, the power of the charger, the distance between the electrical panel and the charging station, and the complexity of the job. This installation estimate also includes the price of permits.

Home homeowners may be shocked to get a quote above $5,000, or in extreme cases $10,000 (https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2022-ford-f-150-lightning-yearlong-review-update-1-sunrun-backup-power/). ... An older home may have an outdated electrical panel, or the panel simply may not have room for a new 240-volt circuit. Upgrading to a larger breaker panel typically adds a couple thousand dollars to the job. Things get really expensive if the service wires feeding electricity to the house can't deliver enough amperage to accommodate a charger on top of your existing electrical load—especially if the lines are buried underground. Replacing these wires means getting your local utility involved, which also may stretch the project timeline by several months.

[Doug Garson]

According to a report from the U.S. Department of Energy, the ideal ratio of EVs to charging stations is 40 Level 2 charging ports and 3.4 DC fast chargers (DCFC) per 1,000 EVs. (A DCFC charger usually has 3 ports.)
Currently, there are 41 Level 2 charging ports and 5.7 DCFC charging ports per 1,000 EVs, respectively, or about 21 EVs for every charging port.
Conversely, there are 2,514 internal combustion engine (ICE) cars per gas station.

The study also notes which states are best when it comes to the ratio of charging stalls to EVs. North Dakota, Wyoming and West Virginia are the three states where you are most likely to find an empty charging stall, while the worst are New Jersey, Hawaii and Arizona. In the last three there is a higher chance that you may find all local public chargers are taken and you may have to wait or find a way to charge the EV at home.

The charging station infrastructure in the United States will catch up to and surpass traditional fuel stations for the number of individual pumps, or charging stalls if the Biden administration's plans to add 500,000 (https://insideevs.com/news/566683/biden-electric-car-chargers-5billion/) of them by 2030 is fulfilled. There are currently between 110,000 - 150,000 fuel stations (each with multiple individual pumps) and the number of EV charging outlets is around 110,000.
https://insideevs.com/news/567694/chargers-outnumber-gas-stations-soon/

[Dan Friedrichs]

Maybe where you live everyone has a charger in their garage...but not where I live.*** I have a 150A panel.

I do not have a "charger" in my garage, per se - I have a 240V outlet I plug into. I could also plug into a regular 120V outlet. I also have a 150A panel for the whole house - no issue.



How 'bout that long drive [east] to Showlow through high country to go skiing at Sunrise?
Looks like there's a Supercharger in Payson. Assuming you're in Phoenix, would be no hassle at all.



Most American homeowners will spend around $1,150 to $2,750 to purchase and install a 240-volt charging station. ...or in extreme cases $10,000 (https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2022-ford-f-150-lightning-yearlong-review-update-1-sunrun-backup-power/). ... especially if the lines are buried underground. Replacing these wires means getting your local utility involved, which also may stretch the project timeline by several months.

It's a standard 240V outlet. This is like telling someone considering acquiring a 3HP table saw, "Watch out - you might have to spend $10k having your utility company replace your buried service wiring!".

[Doug Garson]

Seems like some people forget why the switch to EVs is encouraged. Here's a few reasons
"Phoenix set a new heat record on Saturday, reaching 54 days of 110 degrees or higher in 2023. This breaks the 53-day record that was set in 2020."

Public health officials in Maricopa County, Arizona's most populous county and home to Phoenix, said this week that 202 heat-associated deaths had been confirmed for 2023 as of Sept. 9; far more than the 175 confirmed by the same time last year. Another 356 deaths this year are being investigated for heat causes.

"But it can easily get much hotter. Arizona was the third-fastest-warming state in the US between 1970 and 2018, according to a Climate Central study. And a recent ProPublica study suggested the Phoenix region will be among the country's least-habitable by 2050, with half the year spent at temperatures above 95F.",

"By 2050, people in Phoenix are projected to experience an average of about 44 days per year over 109.9ºF. Climate change is increasing the frequency and intensity of heat waves, even in places with cooler average temperatures.

[Patty Hann]

If gets that hot (and it may) people will stop moving here. Maybe a lot of them will move out.
Fewer people and average temps start to drop.
And I'll likely be dead by 2050 anyway.

[Allan Dozier]

I have read alarmist articles suggesting that huge numbers of houses will need their electrical service upgraded. If those houses have an electrical dryer then they have enough service to charge an EV. Just don't run the dryer after midnight. Households that have to use a solar clothes dryer (clothes line) because they have such a tiny service they can't have a dryer their laundry are not likely to be looking at purchasing an EV anyway.

[Patty Hann]

I have read alarmist articles suggesting that huge numbers of houses will need their electrical service upgraded. If those houses have an electrical dryer then they have enough service to charge an EV. Just don't run the dryer after midnight. Households that have to use a solar clothes dryer (clothes line) because they have such a tiny service they can't have a dryer their laundry are not likely to be looking at purchasing an EV anyway.

The expense is having the line run to the garage.
People's dryers (including mine) are on the back wall of the house.
And in my case there is at least 25 feet between the Dryer outlet and the where the charger would be located in the garage.

[Bill George]

I have read alarmist articles suggesting that huge numbers of houses will need their electrical service upgraded. If those houses have an electrical dryer then they have enough service to charge an EV. Just don't run the dryer after midnight. Households that have to use a solar clothes dryer (clothes line) because they have such a tiny service they can't have a dryer their laundry are not likely to be looking at purchasing an EV anyway.

Or a electric Stove, ,most people do not run the dryer or stove after Midnight and the EV charge could be from 11 PM to 6 AM.

[Doug Garson]

If gets that hot (and it may) people will stop moving here. Maybe a lot of them will move out.
Fewer people and average temps start to drop.
And I'll likely be dead by 2050 anyway.

Sorry you feel that way. I don't expect to be around in 2050 either but I have nieces and nephews who will and I'd like to do what I can to leave them a world that's livable.

[Dan Friedrichs]

The expense is having the line run to the garage.
People's dryers (including mine) are on the back wall of the house.
And in my case there is at least 25 feet between the Dryer outlet and the where the charger would be located in the garage.

25 foot extension cords are pretty easy to acquire, you know ;)

Also, the cost of electricity is so much less than gasoline that a typical driver will save literally thousands of dollars per year - certainly more than enough to offset the cost of adding a 240V circuit to your garage (if you like).

And again, most people (who aren't driving long distances) could even charge on a 120V circuit. Or at public charging stations.

[Patty Hann]

Sorry you feel that way. I don't expect to be around in 2050 either but I have nieces and nephews who will and I'd like to do what I can to leave them a world that's livable.

Honestly, I think that ship has already sailed.

[Patty Hann]

25 foot extension cords are pretty easy to acquire, you know ;)

Also, the cost of electricity is so much less than gasoline that a typical driver will save literally thousands of dollars per year - certainly more than enough to offset the cost of adding a 240V circuit to your garage (if you like).

And again, most people (who aren't driving long distances) could even charge on a 120V circuit. Or at public charging stations.

I keep my monthly expenses on a spreadsheet. When I retired 6 years ago I set my monthly gasoline expenditure to $50.
Up until this year my total expenditures for gas was always less than $600 (50x12).
This year it will be close, might exceed it.
And as I've said before, my car is paid for (2006 Corolla), and it has 120K miles on it.
Simple economics says that buying an EV is not cost effective for me.

[Ross Moshinsky]

Late to the party but I'll give my short and sweet sales pitch on EVs.

If you're looking to buy a new car, at least look at them and run the numbers. With the incentives out there, certain EVs are arguably the best product in their price point. If you don't like it or don't think it will work for your family, that's okay. Not everyone is up for being an early adopter.

What I can say is, I've saved a lot of money with my EV and feel strongly that there are a lot of people who could very easily switch to an EV without feeling many of the growing pains.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

I'll bet it is a major PIA trying to run a gasoline car. You have to find a station, put up with the smell of that stinky gasoline and it is so explosive. Heck so dangerous the stations put up signs against smoking while filling your car. I mean are car driver so stupid they don't know how explosive gasoline is? They gotta be warned with signs at the pumps?. They then drive around in these incendiary machines carreening wildly off curves into trees etc. Nope. My horse is dependable, I can give him water from most any stream and if I run out of hay, he can graze along the side of the road while I go behind a bush. Dang noisy cars will never catch on. The way some carry on their might be gas stations on every street corner and intersection some day. What a waste of farm land. keep that noisy stinky death trap to your self.

Certain parallels?

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

BTW, my neighbor traded his motor scooter for an e-bike. The e-bike goes faster, has peddles if he runs out of charge, charges in 80 minutes from 110 house current and has a range of 75 miles. He does not need registration or insurance for the e-bike.

My daughter came home last month with some little electric motorcycle. She is 30 yrs old and weighs about 160. the thing will do 30 miles per hour with her on it, range of 35 miles and it can pop wheelies with her on it. Not street legal here, but legal on the roads down where her and her boyfriend have a week end place.

Last week I was over in Lancaster County, PA, a large concentration of Amish there. Saw an Amish teen age girl pull into a fabric store on one of those kick scooters they often ride around. (looks like a little kids scooter but made out of an adult bicycle with 26 inch wheels.) On the front wheel there was some sort of smaller wheel connected to an cordless drill. along with a handle bar pouch to hold extra batteries. I asked how that worked. She said one battery charge would power the scooter from home to the store and back, about 3 miles total. She said her mother's wash machine and sewing machine take the same batteries. Even the plain folk are jumping on the bandwagon.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

from a cost standpoint if an electric car has a range of only 160 miles and costs $4 to charge with a home charger, then just in cost of operation, it costs 2.5 cents per mile to drive. Even my wife's hybrid takes 4 gallons of gas to go 160 miles. Unless I can find gas for a dollar a gallon (which we all know aint gonna happen) the EV is more economical. In fact at current price here of $3.70 a gallon, that hybrid costs 9.25 cents per mile to go the same 160 miles.

Last week in the tiny sea coast little town of Chincoteague (pop abt 3,000) I saw 5 ev charging stations all at Hotel parking lots. Now in that town of 3,000, I saw close to 40 different GEM cars cruising around and another 40 or 50 golf carts (street legal there)

The hybrid still needs oil changes, tune ups, transmission maintenance, emmissions inspections etc. The EV does not.

[Stan Calow]

Perry's comment is to the point. Golf carts becoming popular in my neighborhood are evidence that we don't all need 5,000 lb machines to do much of our daily business. I think this is why the Chinese are focusing on dominating the worldwide market for very small EVs for business and personnel use in urban environments.

[Jim Becker]

For general urban and suburban local street transportation, at least in warmer climates, I like the idea of the "golf carty", but street legal vehicles as they are much, much more comfortable to get into and out of than really small "normal" type vehicles. A big barrier to that right now is what is actually street legal in many areas but I hope that changes.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

Back around 1979 there was a gas crunch. My wife and I drove from Washington DC to Erie, PA taking back highways through rural PA for most of the way. We had a brand new little 4 cylinder Datsun with manual transmission. It got about 30 to 35 mpg which was remarkable for that time. As we passed by hundreds of rural residences, one thing was very much in common across the board. for most of the trip. Nearly every residence had two vehicles in the driveway. one a somewhat large vehicle, normally 4 wh dr. and the second was almost always some little econobox. Many families in this area got away from that over the last 20 -30 years. Now every soccer mom has an SUV and dad has a F250 or up. Economics are again forcing some people to have commuter vehicles and the weekend play vehicles.

Frankly, we have 4 vehicles. the hybrid SUV gets the best mileage, on some trips getting in the high 40s mpg. The little mitsubishi Mirage gets around 35 MPG, the F-250 which is only used one or twice a month for hauling, gets about 20 and my Harley which only gets around 40 MPG. It costs less in gas to drive the SUV over even the motorcycle. The advanced fuel economy has slowed the transition to electric vehicles.

If war breaks out in the middle east, oil prices will double and electric just may turn out to be the only way people can afford to travel.

And look at the bright side. Every electric vehicle out there, makes one less consumer demanding gasoline. Less demand, lower price. Maybe not at todays number of EV's but certainly if the number doubles.

[Doug Garson]

I think one thing the anti EV crowd overlooks is that oil is a global commodity and thus gas prices are mainly driven by global supply and demand. Like Perry said all it takes is for the middle east conflict to expand and gas prices will skyrocket. Electricity prices are much more local especially if it is renewable. I live in BC where almost all our electricity is from renewables (mainly hydro) a war in the middle east will have virtually no impact on my electricity bill but my gas prices could double. If you want energy independence you have to eliminate oil unless you are willing to nationalize your oil industry (good luck with that ) and then you can control gas prices independent of global influences.

[Rich Engelhardt]

I'm looking out the back door at the hi rise apartment complex and wondering how all those cars in the parking lot are going to charge.
As a landlord myself, I can assure you of one thing, the landlord(s) won't be paying to run electric to the parking lot so tenants can charge their EVs.

[roger wiegand]

I'm looking out the back door at the hi rise apartment complex and wondering how all those cars in the parking lot are going to charge.
As a landlord myself, I can assure you of one thing, the landlord(s) won't be paying to run electric to the parking lot so tenants can charge their EVs.

It's my understanding of the economics of rental housing that the tenants pay for everything, plus a little added profit for the landlord.

[Bill Howatt]

My only comment on this rather complex situation is that right now we are likely just into the "golden age" of EVs where there are subsidies, no road taxes previously derived from gasoline, and the infra-structure hasn't been totally overloaded along with increased regulations. This is not an uncommon stage in new technologies being introduced such as the first automobiles, airlines.
In other words, the real impact has yet to be felt.

[Jim Becker]

Now every soccer mom has an SUV and dad has a F250 or up.

Hah! In horse country...that's reversed. The "mom" has the F250 to haul her big GN trailer and "dad" has the SUV or Sedan to commute to work away from the home. :) :D

[Jim Becker]

I'm looking out the back door at the hi rise apartment complex and wondering how all those cars in the parking lot are going to charge.
As a landlord myself, I can assure you of one thing, the landlord(s) won't be paying to run electric to the parking lot so tenants can charge their EVs.
I can tell you that at least for new multi-family housing builds, local Planning Commissions and Zoning Commissions are quickly adding requirements to provide vehicle charging in order to get projects approved. I'm on a local Planning Commission and this is an active topic and action. It's more difficult for existing multi-family housing situations, but savvy property owners absolutely know that they are going to need to support this in order to be competitive and get the level of rent they want to achieve into the future. So yes, those property owners absolutely will be paying to install charging for electrified vehicles; it may not be tomorrow, next week or next month, but they will do it because otherwise, folks will not want to live there because of the lack of the facilities. It's a classic supply and demand issue. While the demand is lower "right now" and the incentive isn't what it needs to be (yet), that will change and so will the property owner's business decisions.

[Rich Engelhardt]

It's my understanding of the economics of rental housing that the tenants pay for everything, plus a little added profit for the landlord.True to a point. Someone other than the tenant though has to pay for the electrician to install the wiring.
In all but one of our rental houses, this is going to mean upgrading the panel - as well as running the actual wiring for the Level 2 charger.
That a couple to a few thousand dollars.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

Now thats funny. You would put in out door jacuzzis for the right increase in rent. When the complex down the road puts in chargers, the pressure will be on landlords. Those who don't will be stuck with tenants who have the older cars and eventually with the lower financial classes of tenants. As a landlord, I let a tenant install a line so he could plug in his employers truck (frozen food delivery ) Tenant got his employer to pay the electrician. for the install. And employer paid the tenants electric bill. When the tenant left, I still had the 50 amp line to use with my camper/ welder, etc..

[Rich Engelhardt]

I can tell you that at least for new multi-family housing builds, local Planning Commissions and Zoning Commissions are quickly adding requirements to provide vehicle charging in order to get projects approved. I'm on a local Planning Commission and this is an active topic and action. It's more difficult for existing multi-family housing situations, but savvy property owners absolutely know that they are going to need to support this in order to be competitive and get the level of rent they want to achieve into the future. So yes, those property owners absolutely will be paying to install charging for electrified vehicles; it may not be tomorrow, next week or next month, but they will do it because otherwise, folks will not want to live there because of the lack of the facilities. It's a classic supply and demand issue. While the demand is lower "right now" and the incentive isn't what it needs to be (yet), that will change and so will the property owner's business decisions.
I can see it for new - but - retrofitting existing? Not real likely.
I just don't have any idea how an open parking lot could even begin to be wired for charging.

[Mike Henderson]

I can see it for new - but - retrofitting existing? Not real likely.
I just don't have any idea how an open parking lot could even begin to be wired for charging.

I know a guy who owns an apartment building (with others) and they started getting pressure to put in charging stations. It was impossible to do it and have the chargers connected to each unit's electrical system, so they put in "pay" chargers in one spot in the parking area. They said they had some problems getting the power company to put in the lines for the chargers but got it done.

He also said that if they reached a point were there weren't enough chargers, they could do more in a different spot in the parking lot. They had their own parking area and the parking lot was behind a fence with access control. Only tenants had access cards for the parking lot.

He told me that they were losing tenants because of the lack of chargers and that pushed them to install the first set. They were able to keep their rents up because having chargers in the parking lot made the building more attractive. For the tenant, charging will be more expensive than if they were hooked to their power, but it's better than having to find chargers "out in the wild".

Mike

[Doug Garson]

I can see it for new - but - retrofitting existing? Not real likely.
I just don't have any idea how an open parking lot could even begin to be wired for charging.
It is certainly a challenge but not the only one facing homeowners. My brother in law lives in a townhouse complex that is facing the challenge to upgrade the electrical supply to the whole complex as well as all the units. Not just to add EV charging but to support air conditioning which was considered unnecessary when the complex was built 25 or so years ago and now is becoming necessary. Kinda think if we started going EV 25 years ago maybe we wouldn't need AC now.

[Jim Becker]

I can see it for new - but - retrofitting existing? Not real likely.
I just don't have any idea how an open parking lot could even begin to be wired for charging.
As Mike just mentioned, it's going to happen if they want to retain tenants and be able to garner market rent. Again, not tomorrow or next week or next month, but they will have to find a way to provide vehicle charging at some point.

[Rich Engelhardt]

The "if" is the operative factor here.

I can see where part of the apartment complex behind me could install some sort of charging in the covered parking area. I don't see it as widespread and I don't see it happening any time soon.

We are still reeling from a whopping 35% increase on property values that's going to take a long time to get back via rent increases.
On top of the already over the top expenses for maintaining the places.
Water heaters have tripled in price over the last 4 years. A/C units and furnaces are nearly double.
Any sort of electrical and/or plumbing work costs an arm and a leg.

Anyhow - I really doubt I'll live long enough to have the issue land in my lap.

[Jim Becker]

The bottom line is that it's a business decision, Rich, and when it happens will be predicted by the effect on the business if the resource isn't there.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Jim - correct, it is a business decision & I have been in that business since 2003 and I have been a member of the Lake Erie Landlord's Association since 2003 also.
LELA is a professional association of landlords that meet monthly to discuss matters like this.
Usually a professional in that area is brought in to give us a talk and answer questions.

So - I'm saying that from the prospective of a landlord, who is a member of a professional association of landlords, comprised of members that own anything from a single house to as many as 4500 units - - I don't see retrofitting happening in anywhere near the numbers people on the outside of the business think it will.

You've always impressed me as a stand up guy & I really believe that, as a member of zoning & planning, you have the best interests of everyone in mind.
I suggest as such, you contact a professional association of landlords and talk to them.
I believe that would be a win/win situation.

I don't dispute the fact that EVs are coming, like it or not.
I do dispute the idea that landlords will have no choice in the matter - either put in a charger or lose out.
For many landlords, their way of coping will be to just get out of the business. (my choice since I'm too old at this point to wait on a return of my investment)

For many other's, there is just simply no way they can afford to have it done by someone that knows what they are doing, so they'll go to Lowes and buy a screwdriver, some wire and maybe a VOM meter and become an instant electrician.

This is not a simple issue and the answer if far more complex that just thinking "do it or lose out".

[Dan Friedrichs]

For many landlords, their way of coping will be to just get out of the business. (my choice since I'm too old at this point to wait on a return of my investment)


But then someone else will buy the property, and life goes on.

Instead of EV charging, what if this was 120 years ago and you were lamenting that buyers were now expecting indoor plumbing, which would be costly to install?

[Rich Engelhardt]

But then someone else will buy the property, and life goes on.

Instead of EV charging, what if this was 120 years ago and you were lamenting that buyers were now expecting indoor plumbing, which would be costly to install?
Yep - someone else will buy the property - or not. Who's to say? That's not my problem at that point.
BTW - we aren't talking about buyers here - we're talking about renters.
Two vastly different things.

I would upgrade the electric in order to make the house more saleable in an instant - if that's what it took.
To accommodate a person that might not be around in a few days or months?
Nope.

[Doug Garson]

I can't help but think of another technology that went from non existent to a necessity in my lifetime. I can remember the time before the internet or smartphones existed. No one had personal computers or smartphones or wifi. I remember the first email address I was given at work and the only email I ever got was from the IT department welcoming me to email. In order to send or recieve an email you went to one of the limited number of computer terminals, probably stood in line waiting for your turn only to find you had no emails. Fast forward 20 years and email and internet access are an integral part of everyday life. First thing most people do when they get to work is the check their emails. The network goes down and everyone at work stands around unable to work.
The rate of change in technology is exponential, what took 20 years, starting 20 years ago will take a few years now. We, or at least subsequent generations, will adapt and figure how to get it done.

[Bill Howatt]

But then someone else will buy the property, and life goes on.

Instead of EV charging, what if this was 120 years ago and you were lamenting that buyers were now expecting indoor plumbing, which would be costly to install?

Rightly, or wrongly, I see the owners of large apartment buildings having a much more difficult problem providing adequate charging service to a large number of vehicles in the facility compared to residential houses where many would not even need an upgrade for an overnight charging facility.

[Doug Garson]

Rightly, or wrongly, I see the owners of large apartment buildings having a much more difficult problem providing adequate charging service to a large number of vehicles in the facility compared to residential houses where many would not even need an upgrade for an overnight charging facility.
Let's take an example of a 100 unit apartment building. Wouldn't that be an opportunity for a third party company to install say, a dozen fast chargers, pay a fee to the building owner and make a nice profit off the charging fees? No need for the building owner to make any investment.

[Jim Becker]

Let's take an example of a 100 unit apartment building. Wouldn't that be an opportunity for a third party company to install say, a dozen fast chargers, pay a fee to the building owner and make a nice profit off the charging fees? No need for the building owner to make any investment.
That's one of the scenarios that is and will continued to be in play. Some multifamily property owners will choose to put in the facilities and some will choose to partner, either with one of the larger charging organizations or a growing number of smaller operators that have seen opportunity, at least for Level 2 charging which is substantially more affordable to implement for a parking situation than Level 3 DC fast charging. The latter is better suited for high volume situations for travel, etc., because the initial cost is very high.

[Mike Henderson]

Yep - someone else will buy the property - or not. Who's to say? That's not my problem at that point.
BTW - we aren't talking about buyers here - we're talking about renters.
Two vastly different things.

I would upgrade the electric in order to make the house more saleable in an instant - if that's what it took.
To accommodate a person that might not be around in a few days or months?
Nope.

Income property, such as an apartment building, is priced based on the cash flow (the rents). If you can do something to the property to increase the rents, such as adding EV chargers, you are increasing the value of the property for when you sell it.

Mike

[Stan Calow]

How long did it take for cable infrastructure to become an expected normal utility in most homes? Heck, it only took a couple of years before Google had most of my metro area connected with fiber optics. Either you trust the marketplace or you don't.

[Dick Strauss]

Imagine you have 3 chargers in an appt complex... In my previous post.

[Dick Strauss]

Imagine you have 3 chargers in an appt complex... In my previous post.

Ignore this post. It was in reference to a post that I can no longer see for some reason.

[Rick Potter]

Another 'growing pain' is the sad fact that currently many existing chargers are already out of date or not maintained properly. Which is why Tesla is becoming the 'standard', and GM, Ford VW, BMW etc. have already made deals to adopt their cars to fit them. And Mr. Musk in a matter of months is on track to become the largest supplier of electricity for travelers nationwide permanently.

What a coup, before June no one knew of his plans. Tesla is already the largest by far for both sales and charging stations, and the gold standard for maintaining the 'pumps'. According to Motor Trend mag, his chargers have been above 99% reliable for the last 5 years. They just positioned themselves to become the new Standard Oil.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Income property, such as an apartment building, is priced based on the cash flow (the rents). If you can do something to the property to increase the rents, such as adding EV chargers, you are increasing the value of the property for when you sell it.

MikeOh were it that simple.....
There is no such thing as income property. It is properly called - investment real estate or investment property.
Where people get in over their heads is thinking rental properties are income sources. They are not.
This isn't a thread about real estate investment though - it's a side drift on the topic.

[Rich Engelhardt]

How long did it take for cable infrastructure to become an expected normal utility in most homes? Heck, it only took a couple of years before Google had most of my metro area connected with fiber optics. Either you trust the marketplace or you don't.Probably the better part of 50 years for cable. The first instance of cable TV I ever ran across was at my brother's old place in Pittsburgh back in 1970-something.

Google went with KC as an experiment - because of the infrastructure (conduit).
I see Google pulled out though. Probably concentrating on how to get 5G to work and put money in their coffers.

[Rob Luter]

The range and lack of charging infrastructure make an EV impractical for me. Sure, I could spend $70K on one for local travel and charge at home, but I'm not made of money. I have to make one vehicle work for local and long distance travel. Sure, I could rationalize that the money I save on gas would pay for the car and charger and increased electric bills, except my neighbor with a Tesla tells me otherwise. Lastly, I could rationalize that the "emissions free" nature of an EV warrants my expense and inconvenience, except the power in my charging grid comes from Coal and NG power plants. The emissions happen while I charge. Out of sight out of mind?

[Doug Garson]

The range and lack of charging infrastructure make an EV impractical for me. Sure, I could spend $70K on one for local travel and charge at home, but I'm not made of money. I have to make one vehicle work for local and long distance travel. Sure, I could rationalize that the money I save on gas would pay for the car and charger and increased electric bills, except my neighbor with a Tesla tells me otherwise. Lastly, I could rationalize that the "emissions free" nature of an EV warrants my expense and inconvenience, except the power in my charging grid comes from Coal and NG power plants. The emissions happen while I charge. Out of sight out of mind?
Mostly true but.

Even in the worst case scenario where an EV is charged only from a coal-fired grid, it would generate an extra 4.1 million grams of carbon a year while a comparable gasoline car would produce over 4.6 million grams, the Reuters analysis showed.

[Bill Howatt]

Mostly true but.

Even in the worst case scenario where an EV is charged only from a coal-fired grid, it would generate an extra 4.1 million grams of carbon a year while a comparable gasoline car would produce over 4.6 million grams, the Reuters analysis showed.

Fair enough but the popular view of the masses is that an electric car is an absolute zero emission machine.

[Doug Garson]

Fair enough but the popular view of the masses is that an electric car is an absolute zero emission machine.
Agreed, and as the grid becomes greener that comes closer to being true, in BC where I live 98% of electricity is from renewables, the other 2% is from natural gas and we are a net exporter of electricity. Currently about 68% of Canada's electricity and 25% of US electricity is from renewables and that % is growing in both countries. Most of our renewable electricity is hydro.

[Mike Henderson]

The range and lack of charging infrastructure make an EV impractical for me. Sure, I could spend $70K on one for local travel and charge at home, but I'm not made of money. I have to make one vehicle work for local and long distance travel. Sure, I could rationalize that the money I save on gas would pay for the car and charger and increased electric bills, except my neighbor with a Tesla tells me otherwise. Lastly, I could rationalize that the "emissions free" nature of an EV warrants my expense and inconvenience, except the power in my charging grid comes from Coal and NG power plants. The emissions happen while I charge. Out of sight out of mind?

The long term goal is to have almost all electricity produced by renewable sources, such as solar and wind. In the meanwhile, we have to begin converting the automobile fleet from gasoline to electricity. If we were to wait until all electricity was renewable, we'd have a very long time before the fleet was electric. It makes sense to begin converting the cars on the road to electric now.

It may work out that when we're 90% renewable electricity, we're also 90% electric vehicles (well, automobiles anyway).

Mike

[Keith Outten]

If they don't find a means to produce solar panels and wind turbines that last longer then they do today the cost of electricity will not be affordable in the future.
Today we cannot feed ourselves without fossil fuel and when the economy of scale of fossil fuel is reduced the cost will not provide affordable meals on the table.

[Mike Henderson]

If they don't find a means to produce solar panels and wind turbines that last longer then they do today the cost of electricity will not be affordable in the future.
Today we cannot feed ourselves without fossil fuel and when the economy of scale of fossil fuel is reduced the cost will not provide affordable meals on the table.

I don't know about wind turbines but the solar panels installed on my house are guaranteed for 20 years. That means that within those 20 years, the production will not fall below 90+ percent of what they would produce when new. That doesn't mean that I will have to replace them in 20 years, just that my production of electricity will be less than when they were new.

The microinverters are also guaranteed for the same 20 years.

I don't remember the exact percent in the guarantee, but it was over 90 percent. That's a pretty good lifespan, as far as I'm concerned. The biggest problem I have with them is dust and dirt collecting on the panels which reduces the electricity generated. I clean them about once a year.

For solar panels, once you get past the amortization of the capital cost, the ongoing variable cost is very low.

I don't know anything about wind turbines and their lifespan.

The problem I see is not the lifespan of the solar panels (and maybe the wind turbines) but the cost to store electricity for times when the sun is not shining or the wind is not blowing.

Mike

[Doug Garson]

The problem I see is not the lifespan of the solar panels (and maybe the wind turbines) but the cost to store electricity for times when the sun is not shining or the wind is not blowing.

Mike
All of the nation’s coal-fired power plants but one are less cost-effective to operate than constructing new solar or wind facilities in the United States, according (https://energyinnovation.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Coal-Cost-Crossover-3.0.pdf) to a study published Monday by the firm Energy Innovation.

Analysts also found that the savings from transitioning to locally produced solar energy could be used to add 137 gigawatts worth of batteries across all plants and at least 80 percent of the capacity at one in three existing coal plants. In other words, they wrote, “the economics of replacing coal with renewables are so favorable that they could fund a massive battery storage buildout to add reliability value along with emissions reductions.
https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/3836301-99-percent-of-u-s-coal-plants-are-more-expensive-than-new-renewables-would-be-report/#:~:text=Overall%2C%20the%20median%20cost%20for,me gawatt%2Dhour%20for%20new%20solar.

[Rob Luter]

The long term goal is to have almost all electricity produced by renewable sources, such as solar and wind. In the meanwhile, we have to begin converting the automobile fleet from gasoline to electricity. If we were to wait until all electricity was renewable, we'd have a very long time before the fleet was electric. It makes sense to begin converting the cars on the road to electric now.

It may work out that when we're 90% renewable electricity, we're also 90% electric vehicles (well, automobiles anyway).

Mike

Again, it makes sense for some today. Not for me. I know a number of folks who drive EVs. They do so largely to signal virtue or because they think it elevates their status. This is by their own admission. Not a single party has said "I did the math and this really makes economic sense for my lifestyle". Instead, they're like Vegans or CrossFit participants, making sure you know all about their life choices within minutes of striking up a conversation. I say drive what you want. Me or them. My automobile choices are more fuel efficient than any cars we've ever owned. I'm doing my part and won't be shamed into choosing something I don't want. It's bad enough I have to help pay for other's cars (see link). I'll likely be dead before big brother will tell me what to drive. 'Murica!

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/new-report-unmasks-true-costs-electric-vehicle-mandates-remain-expensive

[Bill Howatt]

137 gigawatts as far as providing load capability is meaningless without a time period associated with it. Do we get 137 gigawatts of battery power for a day, a hour, a minute....

[Doug Garson]

137 gigawatts as far as providing load capability is meaningless without a time period associated with it. Do we get 137 gigawatts of battery power for a day, a hour, a minute....
Good point, I think that is a typo in the report, since it was describing battery storage, I would assume it should be 137 gigawatt-hours of storage. I think the key takeaway from the article is the quote " the economics of replacing coal with renewables are so favorable that they could fund a massive battery storage buildout to add reliability value along with emissions reductions.”

[Doug Garson]

Today we cannot feed ourselves without fossil fuel and when the economy of scale of fossil fuel is reduced the cost will not provide affordable meals on the table.
I think the key word there is TODAY. Yes we can't feed the world today without using fossil fuels but what happens if we continue to use fossil fuels at today's rate for another decade? According to the IPPC " Observed climate change is already affecting food security through increasing temperatures, changing precipitation patterns, and greater frequency of some extreme events (high confidence). "

[Doug Garson]

Again, it makes sense for some today. Not for me. I know a number of folks who drive EVs. They do so largely to signal virtue or because they think it elevates their status. This is by their own admission. Not a single party has said "I did the math and this really makes economic sense for my lifestyle". Instead, they're like Vegans or CrossFit participants, making sure you know all about their life choices within minutes of striking up a conversation. I say drive what you want. Me or them. My automobile choices are more fuel efficient than any cars we've ever owned. I'm doing my part and won't be shamed into choosing something I don't want. It's bad enough I have to help pay for other's cars (see link). I'll likely be dead before big brother will tell me what to drive. 'Murica!

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/new-report-unmasks-true-costs-electric-vehicle-mandates-remain-expensive
I think the linked article is biased and totally misses the main point of switching to EVs. It is not to save money, it is to fight climate change. Why would you not want taxpayer funds to subsidize the fight against climate change? And why does the article ignore subsidies to oil companies which are comparable to the EV subsidies?

[Bill Howatt]

I'd say it likely that the Texas Public Policy Foundation has a bias given that it is from a major oil state.
While the EVs may possibly enjoying some degree of enhanced subsidies, States (and other jurisdictions) have been offering government incentives for many years to corporations to locate a plant in their area making virtually anything you can think of - not just EV components. These are done to boost local employment and general revenue.

[Rob Luter]

I think the linked article is biased and totally misses the main point of switching to EVs. It is not to save money, it is to fight climate change. Why would you not want taxpayer funds to subsidize the fight against climate change? And why does the article ignore subsidies to oil companies which are comparable to the EV subsidies?

Biased? Really? What exactly is climate change? I’m old enough to remember multiple times we were warned we were freezing, boiling, about to be killed by ozone, then lack of ozone, then acid rain, then some other hysterical issue designed to drum up grant money and tax rates. It’s hogwash. A hoax. This planet has been pummeled by all manner of celestial objects, volcanos, storms, etc. We tried to poison the atmosphere with coal in the Industrial Age. Mother Nature is a tough broad and anyone who thinks we’ll have an impact on climate by driving a Tesla is delusional.

[Stephen Tashiro]

That doesn't mean that I will have to replace them in 20 years, just that my production of electricity will be less than when they were new.


Will you be able to re-roof without uninstalling the panels?

[Doug Garson]

Biased? Really? What exactly is climate change? I’m old enough to remember multiple times we were warned we were freezing, boiling, about to be killed by ozone, then lack of ozone, then acid rain, then some other hysterical issue designed to drum up grant money and tax rates. It’s hogwash. A hoax. This planet has been pummeled by all manner of celestial objects, volcanos, storms, etc. We tried to poison the atmosphere with coal in the Industrial Age. Mother Nature is a tough broad and anyone who thinks we’ll have an impact on climate by driving a Tesla is delusional.

So it's you against EXXON Mobile

"ExxonMobil: Oil giant predicted climate change in 1970s - scientists. One of the world's largest oil companies accurately forecast how climate change would cause global temperature to rise as long ago as the 1970s, researchers claim."
https://www.google.com/search?q=oil+company%27s+knowledge+of+climate+chan ge&rlz=1C1RXQR_enCA995CA996&oq=oil+company%27s+knowledge+of+climate+change&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOdIBCTI2MTc0ajBqN6gCAL ACAA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

[Bill Howatt]

Biased? Really? What exactly is climate change? I’m old enough to remember multiple times we were warned we were freezing, boiling, about to be killed by ozone, then lack of ozone, then acid rain, then some other hysterical issue designed to drum up grant money and tax rates. It’s hogwash. A hoax. This planet has been pummeled by all manner of celestial objects, volcanos, storms, etc. We tried to poison the atmosphere with coal in the Industrial Age. Mother Nature is a tough broad and anyone who thinks we’ll have an impact on climate by driving a Tesla is delusional.

I feel that there are normal "earth" factors influencing climate but I think to ignore the pace change has recently grown and scientifically can be shown to agree with human action data is folly. Things like ozone, acid rain were real and their effect has been diminished because of steps taken to change chemical use such as Freon and its cousins, and increased use of scrubbers on plant emissions. Similar to the Year 2000 was a hoax, nothing happened - sure nothing happened because millions and millions of dollars were spent to make sure nothing happened.
Indeed the air was polluted by coal in the industrial age but years ago the number of factories and the population was far less than today. Phasing out major use of fossil use may have an impact on climate but it remains to be seen if it will be enough of an impact.

[Mike Henderson]

Will you be able to re-roof without uninstalling the panels?

No, that's one thing I asked them when they installed. I had a new roof but they tell me that when they install on an older roof they recommend putting new shingles under the solar panels so you can replace around them. The shingles under the panels tend to last a long time because the panels shade them.

Mike

[Allan Dozier]

i did the math and this really makes economic sense for my lifestyle. :)
But seriously yes it does. I currently only work two days a week anymore. We have a second home in the mountains so I spend half the week there and half at the original homestead. It is 3 hours away so I got the EV to make the trip back and forth for a fraction of what driving my truck would cost. Of course driving around town is the ideal use for EVs but if I were going to take a 10 hour trip I would still elect to take my EV, just have to make some 15 to 20 minute stops especially at lunchtime. Because it is also the best driving car I have ever owned.

[Tom M King]

The Earth's population has doubled twice in my lifetime. Before then, it took many lifetimes to double. If the whole world consumed like we do here, it would have all been over a good while back.

[Doug Garson]

The Earth's population has doubled twice in my lifetime. Before then, it took many lifetimes to double. If the whole world consumed like we do here, it would have all been over a good while back.
So true and the people who are suffering and will in the future suffer the most, are the people who consumed the least and thus contributed the least to the problem.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

I have avoided this thread. It is looking interesting. I hope it stays civil.

I have gotten caught up with this and it is a much nicer version of an alternative energy discussion than usual. Our 22 solar panels continue to make more electricity than we use. I know they in no way provide a solution to such complex problems. They do help me feel some hope and that we have at least tried to do something helpful. We have never owned a new car. I am still on the lookout for an affordable EV even if it is a bicycle.

509500 509501

Keith Otten's point about feeding ourselves is poignant and starting to be a big concern for farmers.
"Currently, the synthetic ammonia for nitrogen fertilizer uses 3-5 percent of the world’s fossil gas but is projected to account for the largest share of the growth in global oil demand through 2026."

[Peter Mich]

I'd say it likely that the Texas Public Policy Foundation has a bias given that it is from a major oil state.

TPPF might well have a bias. Many of the foundations and corporations that provide funding to TPPF defend and favor fossil fuel industries.

[Jim Becker]

No, that's one thing I asked them when they installed. I had a new roof but they tell me that when they install on an older roof they recommend putting new shingles under the solar panels so you can replace around them. The shingles under the panels tend to last a long time because the panels shade them.

Mike
Going solar is helping to make metal roofing more popular because its lifespan can be substantially longer than even the best 50 year shingles you can buy. Had I decided to move forward with solar two years ago (I didn't because in the end, it was clear we would not be here physically for more than 10-15 years and the primary purpose was for backup power) I would have wanted to re-roof with metal first since it's likely the current shingle roof is more than 15 years old already and they are clearly not 50 year shingles.

[Dan Friedrichs]

, about to be killed by ozone, then lack of ozone,

Rob, I'll pick out just one example. I assume you're talking about the "hole in the ozone layer". Yes, CFCs caused this. We recognized it, came up with collaborative international agreements (the Montreal protocol), and halted further damage. This is an example of science and policy "working". It makes me optimistic we can make similar progress on other issues.

[Patty Hann]

So... some places still in the throes of winter, some places in transition, and some places (like the low deserts) don't really experience much below 40F (and no snow)...
How did the electric vehicles fare in the ultra cold, snowy areas?
Some make/ models cope better than others?
I read that loss of charge was one of the biggest problems.
What about access to chargers when you are traveling a long distance through areas with heavy snowfall?

[Malcolm McLeod]

…
I read that loss of charge was one of the biggest problems.
What about access to chargers when you are traveling a long distance through areas with heavy snowfall?

Long story, but we were contacted to assist 4 young ladies in rural CO w/ 8mi of range left and 20miles to the nearest town. Temps in the ‘teens; 8-10” snow. They just managed to climb the hill ~1mi to our house and recharge.

[Ronald Blue]

So... some places still in the throes of winter, some places in transition, and some places (like the low deserts) don't really experience much below 40F (and no snow)...
How did the electric vehicles fare in the ultra cold, snowy areas?
Some make/ models cope better than others?
I read that loss of charge was one of the biggest problems.
What about access to chargers when you are traveling a long distance through areas with heavy snowfall?

There was a rude awakening for many. Besides the subzero temperatures killing the driving range in challenging conditions they found out that when its well below zero there is no such thing as a fast charge even with a Tesla. People were lined up waiting hours trying to get recharged. Here is a link to an article the AP had. I love the comment about with planning you can travel normally. They will have to explain that one to me when driving in cold snowy conditions is sucking the charge and then there is a line at the charging stations. Oh well form your own opinions.

https://apnews.com/article/electric-vehicle-charging-tesla-frigid-temperatures-2c85e3455d49a86c12d1ba59a235cd4b

[roger wiegand]

Here in Massachusetts I just drove my car (Tesla) both this winter and last without really thinking about it at all, probably recharged a little longer or perhaps once more often on a longer trip. In all winter is, so far, a non-issue for using my car normally, just like most of the other anti-EV nonsense in the press. Don't believe everything you hear on the "news"-- they will look for a couple cars waiting in line someplace and then trumpet the failings of the technology. That's just not how it is in the real world.

[Patty Hann]

I wonder how other makes did, the Chevys, (especially the trucks), Kia, Nissan, Hundai models.

[Doug Garson]

Or Diesel trucks? Try starting a Diesel after it sat overnight not plugged in at minus 40F .

[Ronald Blue]

Here in Massachusetts I just drove my car (Tesla) both this winter and last without really thinking about it at all, probably recharged a little longer or perhaps once more often on a longer trip. In all winter is, so far, a non-issue for using my car normally, just like most of the other anti-EV nonsense in the press. Don't believe everything you hear on the "news"-- they will look for a couple cars waiting in line someplace and then trumpet the failings of the technology. That's just not how it is in the real world.

Your Tesla will be impacted by cold temperatures and that's not my opinion it's fact is easy to document. Have you driven a lot in sub zero temperatures? I'm just curious Roger. The article I cited was just reporting on what was going on at this particular time in this part of the nation. We had -10 here for a few days and I know a few hours north of me were in the -20's Fahrenheit. I'm not opposed to EV's I just know rural America won't be saturated with them in my life time unless there is some huge break through beyond where we are now.

[roger wiegand]

It's only been that cold here once since I've owned the car. I didn't notice any problem, but then I don't obsess about range and charging, I just drive the car and "fill it up" as needed. As noted, if I only had my diesel truck I would have been stuck at home in those conditions; that hasn't prevented me from owning and using a diesel truck either.

Five of every six new cars sold in Norway are now BEV's. They can't be that bad in the cold! https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-extends-lead-norway-evs-take-record-82-market-share-2024-01-02/

[Bill Dufour]

I have read that Norway has one of the largest percentages of electric cars. They know something about cold weather driving in Norway. Lots of hydro in Norway so electricity is cheap. Electricity is one of their biggest exports.
Of course it is a small country with small number of cars so a few tens of thousands can shift percentages quickly.
Bill D.
https://www.visitnorway.com/plan-your-trip/getting-around/by-car/electric-cars/

edit: Norway has about 5.5 million cars. The USA makes about 1.8 Million cars a year and imports 6.5 million.

[Bill Howatt]

The width of Norway measured by the Oslo to Bergen distance is 460 km (287 miles) and can be done on 1 charge I would guess. Norway has about 3.3% of the area of the US so this handy fact about Norway EV adoption is pushing the apples and oranges analogy.

[roger wiegand]

it wasn't about adoption, it was about successful use of millions of EVs in a country where the weather is, on average, colder than most all of the US.

FWIW, the average US car is driven about 37 miles a day, 99.8% of all trips are under 100 miles; trivial for even relatively poor EVs. Declaring EVs useless because they can't handle relatively rare edge cases is much like me declaring that my gas and diesel vehicles aren't useful because I can't drive them from here to Ireland. For most people, almost all the time they work just fine. Would I have on if I lived in northern Montana or in the middle of the Navajo reservation? Probably not. But very few people are in that situation. I have much more range anxiety in my F350 diesel truck (7 mpg with big camper and trailer) than my electric car. I've run out of fuel once and come very stressfully close on 3-4 other occasions over 20K miles because of inability to access a gas station with diesel that I could get my rig into. Not yet even come close to having a problem in the EV over the same number of miles.

[Ronald Blue]

There are 2.8 million autos in Norway. https://www.statista.com/statistics/828602/number-of-registered-vehicles-in-norway-by-type/ Of those in 2022 there were 600,000 EV's. https://www.statista.com/statistics/828602/number-of-registered-vehicles-in-norway-by-type/ They drive less than half the average miles of Americans.
Yes the average for Americans is 37 mile per day (14,000 per year) if you were to drive everyday. My truck didn't move all week until today and then I put 90 miles on it. If I never went anywhere then an EV would serve most of my needs. However if I want to go KC to a Chiefs game I'd have to have a plan to recharge at least once and that's if it's not cold. I don't know where your travels take you with your truck and camper Roger but it isn't hard to find places in this part of the country that you can fuel a truck and trailer or a semi for that matter. However that's probably the benefits of not being in a high density population area. Googling Loves, Pilot/Flying J , Ambest, Ranger etc. will be a great start to locating truck friendly fueling locations too.

[Bill Dufour]

I bet their are very few chargers, roads, or towns 200 miles north of Oslo. I also bet their are no chargers at the north pole. Doubtful at the south pole
Bill D.

[Jerry Bruette]

It's only been that cold here once since I've owned the car. I didn't notice any problem, but then I don't obsess about range and charging, I just drive the car and "fill it up" as needed. As noted, if I only had my diesel truck I would have been stuck at home in those conditions; that hasn't prevented me from owning and using a diesel truck either.

Five of every six new cars sold in Norway are now BEV's. They can't be that bad in the cold! https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/tesla-extends-lead-norway-evs-take-record-82-market-share-2024-01-02/

Norway may not be as cold as you think.Madison, WI has colder average temps in the winter.

[Earl McLain]

Norway may not be as cold as you think.Madison, WI has colder average temps in the winter.

And not unusual to see Fairbanks, Alaska warmer and with less snow than La Porte, Indiana. Thankfully, not this winter!!

[Chris Parks]

There is an undeniable truism around electric cars, anyone who does not like them and their objection is proven wrong will always find another reason not to buy one.

[Patty Hann]

There is an undeniable truism around electric cars, anyone who likes them and their praise is proven in wrong will always find another reason to buy one.

[Chris Parks]

There is an undeniable truism around electric cars, anyone who likes them and their praise is proven in wrong will always find another reason to buy one.

I don't own one so I wouldn't know. The commentary surrounding the changeover fascinates me and watching those desperate to deny that the world is finally realising cars and transport are undergoing a change away from ICE is fascinating to watch.

[Rick Potter]

I am starting to realize my stock options in buggy whips may never pay off.

[Chris Parks]

I am starting to realize my stock options in buggy whips may never pay off.

Always spread your investments to avoid disappointment when the market crashes.

[Jerry Bruette]

I am starting to realize my stock options in buggy whips may never pay off.

You should have shorted them.

[Curt Harms]

All of the nation’s coal-fired power plants but one are less cost-effective to operate than constructing new solar or wind facilities in the United States, according (https://energyinnovation.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/01/Coal-Cost-Crossover-3.0.pdf) to a study published Monday by the firm Energy Innovation.

Analysts also found that the savings from transitioning to locally produced solar energy could be used to add 137 gigawatts worth of batteries across all plants and at least 80 percent of the capacity at one in three existing coal plants. In other words, they wrote, “the economics of replacing coal with renewables are so favorable that they could fund a massive battery storage buildout to add reliability value along with emissions reductions.
https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/3836301-99-percent-of-u-s-coal-plants-are-more-expensive-than-new-renewables-would-be-report/#:~:text=Overall%2C%20the%20median%20cost%20for,me gawatt%2Dhour%20for%20new%20solar.

I remember when coal fired electricity generation was the new savior (1970's?) because zomg Three Mile Island.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

E.V. owners may be interested in todays post from Sammy Roth.

https://www.latimes.com/environment/newsletter/2024-02-27/column-electric-vehicle-sales-slowing-down-dont-panic-boiling-point

[Doug Garson]

E.V. owners may be interested in todays post from Sammy Roth.

https://www.latimes.com/environment/newsletter/2024-02-27/column-electric-vehicle-sales-slowing-down-dont-panic-boiling-point
Good article but why limit it to EV owners? Anyone concerned about the future, (which should be everyone), should be interested.