As I visit various Pro-WW'ing shops.....

[Dennis Peacock]

I keep admiring all the nice tools they have and all the open floor space for material handling, assembly, and finishing. Nice high-end machine for milling the wood to whatever they need.

BUT......

I've noticed one thing....and this one thing they ALL have in common:

Not a one of them have a jointer....not a single one.

So....I'm curious......how does one get a nice clean straight edge for panel glueups without a jointer?

I'm asking as I have been using a jointer since the 1970's......and this has me seriously puzzled.:confused:

[tod evans]

dennis, i get a glue joint quality edge off the tablesaw. i know of several shops that go right from a straight line or gang rip also. then i know of a few who run panel stock through an s4s moulders prior to gluing. but the last joiner i saw in a production enviorment was used to rabbit for glass stop in a sash shop. i don`t recall ever seeing one used in panel production....02 tod

[Steve Clardy]

Most buy their lumber SSLP
Surfaced, Straight line ripped.

[Anthony Anderson]

Dennis, just curious, did you ask the woodworkers whose shop you visited? If so, what did they tell you? I can only think of one way get by without a jointer. If a person buys the wood faced on one side, then they can take a router, using a straight-edge guide, and a guided bearing straight/spiral bit, and get an edge square to the face. Regards, Bill

[Andy London]

I almost never use the jointer for the edges (less than 2%), even when building cabinets full time. The quality of cut right off the cabinet saw has always been as good and more often than not better than a jointer.

Now I do use the jointer however it is for face work as all my stock is rough.

[David Fried]

Dennis,

I have only visited one professional shop. For their "real" work they use tools I don't recognize. Boards moved and clamped by hydraulics, automatically cut, and the operator is just taking them off and stacking them on a cart!

They did have a jointer. I asked and they told me it was a 16" SCM (or something like that). They use it for small jobs and prototypes. Wish I could get their hand-me-downs!

Dave Fried

[Dennis Peacock]

Dennis, just curious, did you ask the woodworkers whose shop you visited? If so, what did they tell you? I can only think of one way get by without a jointer. If a person buys the wood faced on one side, then they can take a router, using a straight-edge guide, and a guided bearing straight/spiral bit, and get an edge square to the face. Regards, Bill

I did ask one of them....said it was a waist of time to joint when they can take it from the TS straight to glueup. Less labor cost, one less machine to keep up, and less overall time involved.

I'm asking because if it's a waist of money? I don't want one and could use the floor space.

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

For me, my table saw is not a large one, so I would have a lot of trouble running a long board through it to get a straight edge for a glue up.

I buy my wood rough, as it is way cheaper that way, and my time is my own, I'm not paid to work in the Dungeon, so for me it is worth it. The pros work in an entirely different environment.

Now if you talked to a custom furniture makes, someone who only makes one of something at a time, not a production run of stuff, then I bet they would have a jointer.

Another way to look at it, is the pro shop does not have a jointer, but they place they buy their wood from surely does (or some production machine that does the same job as a jointer).

Cheers!

[Steve Clardy]

Well. I have to have one. Most of my stock is rough lumber, and I do not have a straight line rip saw.
So I skip surface, cut over length, joint one side, rip to length, glue up panels.
Then they get surfaced again to final thickness, ripped, cut to length.
I buy some material skip planed, straight line ripped one side.
Thats because its easier to pay them 10 cents a board foot to do it than me struggling trying to get a long board straight one side.
If I buy 500' of oak rough, usually a 100' is skip surfaced, SLR

Many shops I've seen do not have a jointer, and a lot of them have no surface planer.

[tod evans]

For me, my table saw is not a large one, so I would have a lot of trouble running a long board through it to get a straight edge for a glue up.

I buy my wood rough, as it is way cheaper that way, and my time is my own, I'm not paid to work in the Dungeon, so for me it is worth it. The pros work in an entirely different environment.

Now if you talked to a custom furniture makes, someone who only makes one of something at a time, not a production run of stuff, then I bet they would have a jointer.

Another way to look at it, is the pro shop does not have a jointer, but they place they buy their wood from surely does (or some production machine that does the same job as a jointer).

Cheers!

stu, i ran a one man production shop building everything from period reproductions to radiused mouldings and i do not own or see the need for a joiner in my operation. i also have open accounts with 6 wholesale yards and have been in every one of their lumber processing facilities and narry a joiner.....lumber that is shipped surfaced and straightlined is run through a double sided planer and accross a straightline saw, the s4s stock is passed through a moulder. the thought of an employee of a lumber wholesaler jointing boards would send the management into hysterics due to the time involved. before i bought a slider i used a simple plywood straight edge to register the board and passed it across the table saw, to this day i can build a jig and glue line rip rough lumber on a regular tablesaw quicker than most folks can straighten an edge on a joiner and if we`re talking several hundred boards the time saved doing one pass on a saw compared to 5-6 on a joiner is substantial. i`m only stating what works for me and what i`ve wittnessed at some of the nations largest wholesalers so take it for what it`s worth, only my ....02 tod

[Mark Carlson]

This is a very interesting question. I understand the arguments for not using the jointer for getting a straight glueable edge. I can get very exceptable results off my table saw. I dont understand how you can get flat wood out of a planer. All the ruff stock I buy needs to be face jointed 1st and then passed thru the planer.

I recently bought a Marc Adams DVD on furniture making and he was making a craftsman style bookcase. He didnt use a jointer on the sides, top and shelves. He just brought his lumber to final dimensions with his planer. He must be buying lumber from a different place or maybe I'm too concerned with getting my wood flat.

[Dennis Peacock]

Another way to look at it, is the pro shop does not have a jointer, but they place they buy their wood from surely does (or some production machine that does the same job as a jointer).

Cheers!

Stu,

Funny you should mention that. I have yet to find a single supplier with even the slightest hint of a jointer. Planer? Yes....Tablesaw? Yes.....Straightline Rip machine? Yes......but not a single jointer anywhere on the property.

Now....PLEASE DON'T GET ME WRONG HERE!!!!!!

I didn't start this thread to stir up a mess. Just that after working in wood for many years and seeing and visiting other shops and Pro type shops and lumber supplies from the sawmill to the kiln to the retail store....I kept noticing one thing in my shop that was MISSING from ALL of their shops: A Jointer

Thus the reason for this thread. Why and if I don't have to have one, then why spend the money for one and use up more floorspace.

[tod evans]

here`s some tablesaw joints cut with a 24 tooth 12" blade.......02 tod

30996

30997

[CPeter James]

I have an 8" and "get by" with it, but 12" would be better. I use only rough cut lumber and I do like Steve Clardy. With a planer you could plan a boars that was like a corkscrew and it would be smooth, but not flat. I try to take my stock down to finish dimensions in stages to stabilize the final product.

CPeter

[Steve Cox]

If I'm building a kitchen then my jointer doesn't get much use (it still gets some). If I'm building furniture it works overtime. That's for me as a one-off shop. I've been in a number of shops and I always see a jointer or some machine to take its' place (usually big and expensive but faster). I have seen S2S and straight lined lumber but by the time it acclimates to my shop it usually needs to be tweaked a little so I just buy rough. If I was in production cabinets I would find something faster that takes less skill but for me it's a critical tool.

[Tom Jones III]

Stu,
Funny you should mention that. I have yet to find a single supplier with even the slightest hint of a jointer.

I was at Houston Hardwoods last Sat. and they were running their jointer. They took me to the back storage area to get some wood I wanted and I was watching some men work as I passed by. I remember because their jointer cuts both the face and edge simultaneously.

I just don't see any other way to (quickly) surface the face of a rough board. I wish I did.

[Paul B. Cresti]

Dennis,
I have been thinking about this for a while and here is my take/opinion on it. In a production shop where time is money (at least #1 thing) a jointer is kind of a useless machine... as it is very time consuming. There is no novelty in prepping the wood. Buy is s4s or s2s and get the parts made, assembled and out of here. In a small custom shop where you have the time and do not have access to the other tools that a big shop has a jointer can be useful. I would say that is a general statement. I am finding that I use my jointer less and less these days but I still use it and would not want to be without it. I am one guy in a small shop doing one job at time and it is not my sole source of income (currently). What I have tried to do though is speed up my stock processing and that includes limiting the use of the jointer. My current process is face jointing boards then edge ripping them on the slider. I then rough cut to length and finish up by planning, rough ripping on the bandsaw and the final sizing through the planer. A lot of steps! I am still kind of using the American tool mentality. My change is going to face joint on jointer, edge rip on slider and then use my ripping jig for the slider to final rip! the only step left will be to plane or maybe size in the planer. So long story short.... even I the real small shop is trying to limit jointer use.

I have no idea if I have made any sense :confused:

[Anthony Anderson]

I'm asking because if it's a waist of money? I don't want one and could use the floor space.

Dennis,
I know that you have a good size shop(checked out your website), but I on the other hand am limited to about 300sqft. It always seems that no matter how big a shop is space is always at a premium. I too could use the space. This is a good topic, because I always assumed that a jointer was needed in the shop. And too think that I just upgraded to a new, better, jointer:confused:. Oh well its here, so I better go ahead and set it up. I can still use it to face boards though. Thanks, Bill

[Paul Canaris]

I find the jointer to be one of the most useful tools in my shop. I prefer to purchase my lumber in the rough. I can consistly get better results by DIY then any lumber that comes from a lumber yard.

[tod evans]

sorry guys i forgot to mention that all my lumber is purchased in the rough, straight outta the kiln. so if statements have lead anyone to think otherwise my appoligies......02 tod

[Tom Saurer]

I was watching This Old House a couple weeks back, when Norm visited a custom woodworking shop. They were giving him a tour of the shop and they walked by an enormous jointer.

[Mark Carlson]

sorry guys i forgot to mention that all my lumber is purchased in the rough, straight outta the kiln. so if statements have lead anyone to think otherwise my appoligies......02 tod

Tod,

I read earlier that you dont have a jointer and buy your lumber in the rough. How do you get your lumber flat?

Thanks for the info.

~mark

[Dev Emch]

You bring up a good point but did not fully elaborate on it. By jointer are you talking about stick jointers or facers? My main line jointer is a 20 inch Porter 300 and I also have a 24 inch Oliver which I have in storage right now to save shop space. Both of these could be called facers.

Large facers have extremely expensive bearings and can blow away and roast alive any stick jointer esp. those from overseas. Their cutter heads and motor systems are super precision machines.

Stick joitners, namely 6 inch and 8 inch, have the cheapest bearings you can get and lack many refinements that facers have. They are for the most part, poor designs. Where they excel is in preparing an edge on a board.

Pro shops often have very good table saws. They also ourtsource work to mill shops or have their own moulders. Shapers are also used here. A moulder can S4S lumber much cheaper than can the old facer/jointer and planer combination. Even if the lumber has moved a bit after S4S, the beginning edge is still good enough to clean up on the martin.

The first cut is an edge clean up. Flip the board and then rip cut. The martin produces such a clean edge that often there is no need to joint. Also bear in mind that the martin can cut dead on. Often you cutting blanks. These are cut to fit a particular shaper setup. So here I dont need to inch up on my final dimension with a jointer. In fact, its easy to overshoot your final dimension if your not careful.

Shapers also have some more things to think about. My shaper can be setup to function as a stick jointer if need be and I have done this a few times. But many profile cutters used by shapers are known as full jointing cutters. Cope and stick sets for router tables are not. The guide bearing always assumes some form of reference edge that never gets trimmed down. On a shaper, I can run a rough cut blank into a cope and stick set and pulverize copious quantities of wood leaving a cut profile that is prefectly straight. Even if my blank has a semi bad edge.

Lastly, modern shops are moving more and more to a world of 32 mm cabinetry. More particle board and more sheet goods. Many shops no longer build their own doors as its cheaper to buy them. In the world of mass production and out sourcing moulding work, the need to run jointers esp., tiny ones, is getting less so. Where I buy most of my lumber, that yard has no planer. Instead, they have a straight line rip saw feeding a Weinig moulder that runs 8 hours per day, 5 days per week. Not only do they do fancy pants mouldings but they also do S4S. A custom setup costs $75 dollars plus knives and about 25 to 50 cents per board foot to run. Work this out over a few hundred or few thousand board feet of lumber and it does not take a rocket scientist to realize that in house facing may not be cost effective in medium to high run operations.

I personally could not live without my facer (BIG JOINTER) and have no plans to give it up. For example, when doing some glue joints, I spring joint my edges. Straight line ripping on a table saw will not help here. Also, I have never EVER seen a stick jointer with a spring joint adjustment lever.

So do I own a stick jointer? Yes. Its a vintage wallace 6 inch jointer from about 1920 to maybe 1930. Its been in parts sitting on my kitchen table for the last two years. That should tell you how useful a stick jointer can really be.:D

[tod evans]

Tod,

I read earlier that you dont have a jointer and buy your lumber in the rough. How do you get your lumber flat?

Thanks for the info.

~mark

mark, i simply run it through the planer, and then straight line and glue it up. panels after glue up are in the 1" range so a pass through either the planer or widebelt will cure any slight variations during the glue up. very seldom do i ever use panels over 36" in length so getting a straight cut 90 deg. to the planed face is pretty easy on the saw even without a slider. and once boards are glued into a panel the tendancy to twist is usually counteracted by the other boards in the glue up. i`ve found over the years that if i can get the flats parallel and the edges 90deg. then gluing really isn`t a problem...02 tod

[Ian Barley]

I don't have a jointer. Edges get straightened on the slider and if a board isn't flat coming out of the planer it gets cut into short enough lengths that the curve is lost or that board gets ditched. I am making outdoor furniture and if a board is twisted when its dried it will only twist again when it has had a few soakings.

[Rob Will]

....lumber that is shipped surfaced and straightlined is run through a double sided planer ....02 tod

Tod,
I'm certainly no WW pro but your comment has me wondering about something. Is a double sided planer simply a power fed jointer (bottom cutter) that is followed by a planer head (top cutter)? If you cut and dry your own lumber, what is the best way to get true boards?
Rob

[Jim Hager]

Truly an interesting topic to be hashing out. I have a DJ-15 jointer that sits near my table saw and close to the workbench. I use it often but I have noticed that I use it less and less as time goes on as I learn to process the materials that I use some other way. I buy all my material planed 13/16 and straight lined one edge. Like Tod was saying I find that the slight twist in boards is lost in the final planing after glue up of a set of panels for doors.

I have also finally started spending some money on good saw blades and have left the junk blades behind and I of course am getting better results and glue line rips that don't need to be jointed. I still use the jointer when I need it of course but I do all I can to skip that step when I can.

So far as doing face planing, I seldom need to face plane a piece to straighten out twist. For one thing my material is too thin to begin with to stand much face planing and still be used for what it is I'm working on. I occasionally face plane a board but it never has been a common practice in my work. Hasn't needed to be.

[Charlie Plesums]

.....how does one get a nice clean straight edge for panel glueups without a jointer?...

I have a 16 inch jointer that I use to flatten boards that have been around too long, to surface rough lumber I buy for furniture, and to remove dings from the S3S lumber I buy for cabinetry. But I don't use it to "get a nice clean straight edge for panel glue-ups" ... those edges come off the saw.

I do some glue-ups on lumber that isn't at final thickness, so I can joint and plane the glue-up rather than the individual boards. The wide jointer is a dream!

[tod evans]

Tod,
I'm certainly no WW pro but your comment has me wondering about something. Is a double sided planer simply a power fed jointer (bottom cutter) that is followed by a planer head (top cutter)? If you cut and dry your own lumber, what is the best way to get true boards?
Rob

rob, "true" boards of any length will only remain that way untill their moisture content changes then they will be off doing what boards do, moving to accomodate the change. ian summed up the way most folks i know deal with lumber," cut it `till it behaves". as for double sided planers, most good ones run a "carpet" feed that will help straighten the warp, but as soon as the moisture content changes the board is off and moving again. that`s why i try to mill and glue the same day so as to get a jump on the movement. everybody does things differently but this process works for me.....02 tod

[Rob Blaustein]

I'm asking because if it's a waist of money? I don't want one and could use the floor space.
You had to wait till AFTER I ordered a jointer to bring this up?!

I suppose the question for a pro shop is whether it's worth it to spend time jointing wood rather than paying the extra for dimensioned lumber. For bigger shops, sounds like it's not. It's one of those time/money trade offs I suppose. And for a hobbyist the equation is related but also a bit different. I would guess most of us can buy dimensioned lumber, but I've opted to get a jointer since I like the idea of milling the boards down (at least I did when I first learned to do it in a ww class). It also gives me the option of using an interesting board that hasn't been milled yet. The situation is analogous to finishing veneered plywood vs using pre-finished ply. Some may like to finish wood themselves, but might also opt to pay extra for pre-finished ply to save time and trouble. For the hobbyist it depends on what you like to do, I guess. The pro may not have that luxury since he/she may be governed more by the time=money equation.

[tod evans]

You had to wait till AFTER I ordered a jointer to bring this up?!

I suppose the question for a pro shop is whether it's worth it to spend time jointing wood rather than paying the extra for dimensioned lumber. For bigger shops, sounds like it's not. It's one of those time/money trade offs I suppose. And for a hobbyist the equation is related but also a bit different. I would guess most of us can buy dimensioned lumber, but I've opted to get a jointer since I like the idea of milling the boards down (at least I did when I first learned to do it in a ww class). It also gives me the option of using an interesting board that hasn't been milled yet. The situation is analogous to finishing veneered plywood vs using pre-finished ply. Some may like to finish wood themselves, but might also opt to pay extra for pre-finished ply to save time and trouble. For the hobbyist it depends on what you like to do, I guess. The pro may not have that luxury since he/she may be governed more by the time=money equation.

rob, years ago when i was doing the contractor saw in the garage thing i still didn`t use a jointer...02 tod

[Jesse Cloud]

Looks like its one of two possibilities:
1)The lumber yards sell all their warped crap to us hobbyists and hide the good stuff in the back for the pros.... or
2)All the experts telling us how important it is to get your stock true have been pulling our legs.

Anyone want to fess up?;)

[Dev Emch]

Rought cut lumber in say a 4/4 range is usually 1 inch to a tadd over. The actual sawing process and the drying process yields waraps and curves and non flat surfaces. Just is.

Any curve in a flat surface will have a period assocated with it. Kinda like a sine wave. After one period, the curve my repeat. But that is not the point.

Short jointers like stick jointers often have short tables. The shorter the table the more likely the jointer will not address a long period surface defect. The longer the board gets, the more this becomes an issue. Cut the boards down, you eliminate this issue.

But to remove these very long period surface defects, your going to need a jointer table long enough to deal with it. This is why you see long infeed tables by the way. My porter and oliver are 8 feet long and that is actually short in comparison to a hofmann or martin. I can order hofmanns that can run up to 14 feet in length.

When you run the board through a facing jointer, you will see the high spots and low spots. You continue this until your compleatly flat. Then you can use this perfect surface for your planer.

Albeit S4S can do virtually the same thing, you will find that very long S4S boards are not nearly as perfect as when done on an 8 foot or longer jointer and I can consistantly get 7/8 inch finished dimensions from 4/4 lumber whereas S4S often has to cut down to 3/4 inch to allow the moulder to work. That means buying 5/4 or 6/4 lumber rough to S4S down to 7/8 inch finished.

So in high end, custom shops, you will always find the monster jointers in use. Sometimes they are new jointers like large felders or martin T-54s. Other times, your going to find Olivers, northfields, newmans and porters.

But I think in closing, you have to understand that jointers were about accuracy. The sexy work is done by the shapers. Jointers are doing the boring work by insuring accuracy. Accuracy from which every other operation is based.

[Steve Clardy]

Looks like its one of two possibilities:
1)The lumber yards sell all their warped crap to us hobbyists and hide the good stuff in the back for the pros.... or
2)All the experts telling us how important it is to get your stock true have been pulling our legs.

Anyone want to fess up?;)


:D Well the pros get some of the junk as like the hobbiest do, believe me.
You ought to see some of the warped, cupped stuff that comes off the truck into my shop.:mad:
Those boards get cut, ripped into smaller pieces, using them for other stuff.
It's a daily deal around here trying to use what is available for purchase. The last five years, it has gotten worse.
Red Oak. No such thing as trying to get a true red oak board anymore. If it looks red, pink, they call it red oak.
Try and match up a set of cabinet doors, using up all you stock.:mad:

Steve:eek: :confused: :rolleyes: :D ;)

[tod evans]

:D Well the pros get some of the junk as like the hobbiest do, believe me.
You ought to see some of the warped, cupped stuff that comes off the truck into my shop.:mad:
Those boards get cut, ripped into smaller pieces, using them for other stuff.
It's a daily deal around here trying to use what is available for purchase. The last five years, it has gotten worse.
Red Oak. No such thing as trying to get a true red oak board anymore. If it looks red, pink, they call it red oak.
Try and match up a set of cabinet doors, using up all you stock.:mad:

Steve:eek: :confused: :rolleyes: :D ;)

you`re not alone steve! if i where to try and face joint an 8` board i`d have 1/4" at one corner and she`d still be twisting:)....02 tod

[Steve Clardy]

you`re not alone steve! if i where to try and face joint an 8` board i`d have 1/4" at one corner and she`d still be twisting:)....02 tod

Hear that:D :D

8' 4/4 board with a 1" arc=0 wood left:eek: :eek: :mad: :)

[Joe Mioux]

I have just fiinished a fairly large toy box for the garage. The top lid is made up of glued up boards. Jointed the edges with a straight edge on the table saw. The joints turned out nice.

I dimenssioned the faces with a planer. Glued them up. Since I don't have a jointer or a widebelt sander, I hand planed the panel flat.

I like the way it turned out....I like the hand tooled look. There are some imperfections.

Anyway, while I was working on the glued up lid it occurred to me that a widebelt sander would flatten my panel.

So now I am thinking seriously of not buying a jointer but rather a widebelt sander.

What do you all think about this idea?

Joe
P.S. Dennis, I hope you don't mind me asking this question in your thread, but it dovetails nicely with your inquiry.

[Steve Clardy]

Joe. Sander would do the same as a planer. If it's cupped, the rollers push it down, and it comes out still cupped.

[Dennis Peacock]

It's a daily deal around here trying to use what is available for purchase. The last five years, it has gotten worse.
Red Oak. No such thing as trying to get a true red oak board anymore. If it looks red, pink, they call it red oak.
Try and match up a set of cabinet doors, using up all you stock.:mad:

Steve:eek: :confused: :rolleyes: :D ;)

Well.....You know WHY it's that way now days don't you?

Folks are buying land, cleaing all the hardwoods, burning in a dozer'd up pile and planting PINE TREES. :mad: :mad:

Todays quality paper is made from Poplar, Birch, and Soft Maple....so you better watch those too as prices for those will keep climbing since larger trees will be cut down and all trees will be under 12" in diameter to harvest to make paper.

Can one make serious furniture out of paper?:confused: :mad:

[Steve Clardy]

Well.....You know WHY it's that way now days don't you?

Folks are buying land, cleaing all the hardwoods, burning in a dozer'd up pile and planting PINE TREES. :mad: :mad:

Todays quality paper is made from Poplar, Birch, and Soft Maple....so you better watch those too as prices for those will keep climbing since larger trees will be cut down and all trees will be under 12" in diameter to harvest to make paper.

Can one make serious furniture out of paper?:confused: :mad:


Hmmm.:confused:
Paper mache potato couch:eek: ;) :D

Yes. It's heart breaking to drive down the road and see these doze piles, burning.:mad: Most won't even let you cut the firewood out of it.:mad:
They say, too much time involved. We have to get it cleared so they can build.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

I'm gettin' in late on this one but I never used mine after the first project (solid Oak entertainment center). I got a good blade on the TS and it's doin' just fine. I can rout the edge with my 110" guide if I want to get a very smooth edge, but for most of the stuff I do, I don't need a jointer. I also don't plan on buying another one...at least not doin' what I'm doin'.

[Jim Becker]

I wouldn't want to work without my jointer...it's one of my favotite tools in that it has helped my joinery go together so much better. Flat, staight and true is a wonderful thing. But I can also understand the other side of the coin and respect it. There are always alternative ways to do things!

[Walt Pater]

I can't imagine life without one- I'm about to buy a little benchtop number so I can have one on job sites (mainly to clean up kerf marks). I'm in the middle of making two 104"X36" mahagony barn doors right now, and haven't stopped jointing each board 'til I get a straight, flat S2S. On the other hand, it's a "materials plus" job, so crazy production pace isn't necessary. Tod, Steve- hats off to you both if you can produce the work you do without jointing every board. That leaves me a little, well, flabbergasted by your skills.

[lloyd morris]

Dennis,

Excellent thread. By the way since you visited these shops, any other general thoughts or observations you noticed which impressed you?

Thanks,

Lloyd

[Tyler Howell]

[quote=Rob Blaustein]You had to wait till AFTER I ordered a jointer to bring this up?!
Yahh!!!!! Where was this thread $$1600.00 ago:( :( ????
Very interesting thanks.

[Dennis Peacock]

Dennis,

Excellent thread. By the way since you visited these shops, any other general thoughts or observations you noticed which impressed you?

Thanks,
Lloyd

Lloyd,

The biggest advantage I noticed that impressed me a lot was how each shop had a large setup around each tablesaw to make sheetgoods handling both safer and faster. I've gotten some ideas about that and I am planning on incorporating some of those ideas in my shop. When I do? I'll post the story and pics. :D

[Dev Emch]

As I said, I dont find 6 and 8 inch stick jointers all the useful. I can throw a terminus moulder head on a 40 mm spindle and qickly readjust the shaper fence to behave like a jointer. This makes short work out of edge issues.

See the following link to see my shaper running one such heads albeit with the fence off.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=19608&highlight=belated+gloat

So if you have a shaper and your were thinking about a 6 or 8 inch jointer, this may make you pause.

[Barry O'Mahony]

that`s why i try to mill and glue the same day so as to get a jump on the movement. everybody does things differently but this process works for me.....02 todWhen i started woodworking, I was lucky to get the book "Tage Frid Teaches Woodworking" as a gift. The one thing I will always remember from this book is his advice to cut the joinery ASAP after milling the boards square, before they've had a chance to move. That way, they'll tend to straighten out when you join them together. As a hobbyist I can't always do that, but when I can't I carefully sticker them so that air can circulate freely around all sides.

What I get from this thread is that alot of pros don't use jointers, and get away with it because:

-- they are slow to use,
--they go through alot of lumber and can cull the twisted stuff for short lengths,
--some rarely/never use boards over 36" long,
-- doubled sided planers, molders, wide drum sanders and other machines not usually practical for hobbyists.
--modern rip blades really do produce glue-line rips.

[Dev Emch]

When i started woodworking, I was lucky to get the book "Tage Frid Teaches Woodworking" as a gift. The one thing I will always remember from this book is his advice to cut the joinery ASAP after milling the boards square, before they've had a chance to move. That way, they'll tend to straighten out when you join them together. As a hobbyist I can't always do that, but when I can't I carefully sticker them so that air can circulate freely around all sides.

What I get from this thread is that alot of pros don't use jointers, and get away with it because:

-- they are slow to use,
--they go through alot of lumber and can cull the twisted stuff for short lengths,
--some rarely/never use boards over 36" long,
-- doubled sided planers, molders, wide drum sanders and other machines not usually practical for hobbyists.
--modern rip blades really do produce glue-line rips.

And dont forget this. America is addicted to oil... DUH, No, I mean sheet goods. Why make something out of solid lumber when you can use hardwood veener spitboard.

[Vaughn McMillan]

rob, years ago when i was doing the contractor saw in the garage thing i still didn`t use a jointer...02 tod
I'm definitely a hobbyist, but up until about a month ago, everything I've built was done without a jointer. Quite a few board feet ripped on a contractor saw and glued up with no touch-up. Santa brought a 6" Griz jointer and find I use it where it's easier or safer to use than the TS, but so far all the stock I've worked with was 24" and shorter.

- Vaughn

[Mark Singer]

I think in this area its more of a mix....A friend of mine that makes large entry and house doors has 2 jointers...Dave another all around guy has one and a large Euro slider. Some of the sheet goods cabinet only guys don't have jointers , but most of the furniture guys do. I use mine all the time and if it is a fine cabinet handplane the jointed edge. I face joint all rough stock to flatten....its a must for large straight components....Kirk Sand my friend that makes guitars has a smaller jointer and uses it...

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Great thread, very interesting to say the least.
I've been thinking about this, and I have to say, that every pro wood working shop in Japan, that I've been to, and it is only a handful, has a jointer, most are at least 8" with the norm being 10" to 14".

They use the jointer to flatten the face of the board before they run it through the thickness planer.

I've not seen much wood here that is sold with all four sides finished, most of the places I've seen are custom wood working shops, they make one off, not production, and they all buy their wood rough, and finish it to the dimensions they need.

Understand, that these shops, the "Pro" shops here in Japan, are smaller that most of the hobby shops in the US. Most of the pro shops, might have a DC, but they are the bag type and they are usually full of dust, no one wears hearing or eye protection either.

I think that for the hobbyist, like myself, a jointer is of use, for the pros, well, maybe not.

One more point, now that I have my Festool TS55, I think I'll be using the jointer less :D (yes that is a gloat).

Cheers"

[Alan Burhop]

So do I own a stick jointer? Yes. Its a vintage wallace 6 inch jointer from about 1920 to maybe 1930. Its been in parts sitting on my kitchen table for the last two years. That should tell you how useful a stick jointer can really be.:D

:D As well as how much he uses his kitchen table. :D

[Steve Clardy]

:D As well as how much he uses his kitchen table. :D


Yes.:eek: :confused: :D :D

[tod evans]

i`d like to pose a question to the folks who do use a jointer; when you start a project and you grab a board, say to make a panel for a door, do you look at the board and say " i must flaten this first" or do you look at it and say " this is a part that will be glued into a whole and i`ll flaten it after gluing" .........
this approach to the materials just may play a large part in the equipment required to get the end result? food for thought....02 tod

[Tom Jones III]

i`d like to pose a question to the folks who do use a jointer; when you start a project and you grab a board, say to make a panel for a door, do you look at the board and say " i must flaten this first" or do you look at it and say " this is a part that will be glued into a whole and i`ll flaten it after gluing" .........
this approach to the materials just may play a large part in the equipment required to get the end result? food for thought....02 tod

How do you do a large panel glue up with rough lumber? You don't know what the grain is going to look like, there may even by some small cracks that you can't see through all the "fur", etc.

Second, my planer is only 13" wide, so I can't plane most panels after glue up, it is either hand held belt sander or hand plane, depending on the wood and the project. I would much rather face joint and plane all the wood to 1/16" oversize, glue it, then hand plane it to finish size rather than glue up 4/4 rough lumber then hand plane it to 3/4"" finished.

[Steve Clardy]

I skip plane rough lumber to 15/16"
Can see the grain, defects.
Rip, cut to over length, joint edges if needed.
Glue up panels.
Surface to finished thickness, rip to width, cut to length

[tod evans]

I skip plane rough lumber to 15/16"
Can see the grain, defects.
Rip, cut to over length, joint edges if needed.
Glue up panels.
Surface to finished thickness, rip to width, cut to length

same method i use only i use a saw instead of the jointer....02 tod

[Dev Emch]

:D As well as how much he uses his kitchen table. :D

And I cook a wicked pot of hot water!:D Look out Julia Child!:D

[J.R. Rutter]

I'm making doors full time, and I just bought a second jointer!

Some of my most popular woods are either not available surfaced, or if bought surfaced, cost me more than the time to do it in-house. I prefer to get stock that is H&M to 15/16" and even here a jointer is valuable. This is especially true if you are trying to make things flat. The secret for me is to use power feeders. There have been threads here in the last few months about this, but the short of it is that a feeder + jointer combo is fast and consistent. Maybe I'm just a control freak!

Depending on the wood species and quality, I either cross cut or rough rip slightly over finished dimension, or both. Then face joint - plane to thickness - edge joint - finish rip. Now you've got S4S stock. I do this for panels as well, so that I just have to take one pass per side through the sander. Seems like every job has some panels wider than my 20" planer, so I just plane the parts rather than the finished panel. This lets me use up all of the stock that is cupped or bowed for thinner parts.

[Mark Singer]

i`d like to pose a question to the folks who do use a jointer; when you start a project and you grab a board, say to make a panel for a door, do you look at the board and say " i must flaten this first" or do you look at it and say " this is a part that will be glued into a whole and i`ll flaten it after gluing" .........
this approach to the materials just may play a large part in the equipment required to get the end result? food for thought....02 tod
Many times the final glued up piece is too big....with the 3'x8' french doors I just made....I started with rough stock...face jointed to about 90% flat and then glued up....eventually I took these over to a friend with a 48" wide Cemco belt sander....that does not really flatten a door....it helps, but it needs a flat side to work off

[tod evans]

Many times the final glued up piece is too big....with the 3'x8' french doors I just made....I started with rough stock...face jointed to about 90% flat and then glued up....eventually I took these over to a friend with a 48" wide Cemco belt sander....that does not really flatten a door....it helps, but it needs a flat side to work off

granted! a few months ago i did 20+ exterior french doors for a house that where 36x108 each. i was able to get them through my 37" widebelt but it was tight! when i make entrance doors i never use solid stock, i always glue up a core and laminate 3/8-1/2" faces to the core, i`ve found that by using an exterior grade glue and pressing the blanks in a vacuum bag i get dead flat, stable stock to work with. i started using this technique after a failure of some commercial doors made out of 12/4 stock many moons ago......02 tod

[John Harden]

A double sided planer does not flatten either face that passes through it. All it does is make them parallel to one another. Any cup, twist or bow that was in the wood before it went in will still be there on the other side.

The only way to get a truly straight, flat, and true board is to joint one face flat, then plane the other face down parallel to the first. You can use either hand or power tools to accomplish this.

How do they get away without one? The same way that most home woodworkers get by not flattening the face of most stock they use for projects. Properly kiln drid wood is often flat enough on one face to get by without this step. If all you want to do is get by, then have at it!!!

Take a close look at the furniture they make there. If they don't joint their lumber, there will definitely be the occasional board that still has visible cup, twist or bow. Even with that, they can likely get away with this with small pieces of stock. Where this really shows up would be on a piece such as a bookcase with full height doors. The door stock has to be dead flat and true, otherwise the top and bottom will not be in the same plane when closed.

Regards,

John

[Dan Larson]

OK folks, time out for a dumb question. What is "skip planing"? I understand the concepts of jointing and planing, but just am not famillar with this term.

Great thread, by the way!

Dan

[tod evans]

OK folks, time out for a dumb question. What is "skip planing"? I understand the concepts of jointing and planing, but just am not famillar with this term.

Great thread, by the way!

Dan

dan, skip, or hit-n-miss is just taking a lite cut to bring your rough stock to the same thickness. most common is 15/16 when doing cabinet parts...02 tod

[Dan Larson]

dan, skip, or hit-n-miss is just taking a lite cut to bring your rough stock to the same thickness. most common is 15/16 when doing cabinet parts...02 tod
Thanks Tod!

[Ian Barley]

.....The only way to get a truly straight, flat, and true board is to joint one face flat, then plane the other face down parallel to the first. You can use either hand or power tools to accomplish this....


What you say is quite true John but my take is different. I make stuff that sits outdoors in all weather without finish. If I take a board that is full of internal stress, so that it is cupped, bowed or twisted, and plane one face of it flat it will still be full of the same stress and when it goes through a couple of wet/dry cycles will start moving again. For my purposes I would rather throw that board in the firewood pile than send it out to a customer and have to replace it in a years time. I cut them down into shorter components (my shortest is 10" long) until they are "intrinsically" straight or if that isn't possible use them for cutting plugs for counterbores - or burn them.

The important point is that the eventual destination and environment of the finsihed product has to be borne in mind.

[Dennis Peacock]

OK folks, time out for a dumb question. What is "skip planing"? I understand the concepts of jointing and planing, but just am not famillar with this term.

Great thread, by the way!

Dan

Or.....it is when you "skip" around the planer while you go fetch the wood coming out the other end.!!!!:D :p

[Chris Dodge]

I build both cabinets and furniture. I use my jointer selectively on certain projects. Most of my furniture projects require the jointer, especially table tops. I get great glue lines from my tablesaw but prefer the even crisper lines from a jointer. When building cabinets I don't go near the jointer. I just do get that exacting with a cabinet. Even if I didn't use it much I would still want a jointer around for those few times when nothing else will work.

[tod evans]

What you say is quite true John but my take is different. I make stuff that sits outdoors in all weather without finish. If I take a board that is full of internal stress, so that it is cupped, bowed or twisted, and plane one face of it flat it will still be full of the same stress and when it goes through a couple of wet/dry cycles will start moving again. For my purposes I would rather throw that board in the firewood pile than send it out to a customer and have to replace it in a years time. I cut them down into shorter components (my shortest is 10" long) until they are "intrinsically" straight or if that isn't possible use them for cutting plugs for counterbores - or burn them.

The important point is that the eventual destination and environment of the finsihed product has to be borne in mind.

ian, i believe this to be good practice both indoors or out, if a board starts squirley it`s very likely to keep being squirley no matter which machines you pass it through. the last thing i would want to use for a door frame member is a board that exibited bad behavior from the get go. now for indoor work i`ve had luck gluing crazy boards into an assembly where they would be held ridgid....or just cut `em up, trim, radius segments, plugs, firewood,etc.....02 tod

[Dev Emch]

A double sided planer does not flatten either face that passes through it. All it does is make them parallel to one another. Any cup, twist or bow that was in the wood before it went in will still be there on the other side.

The only way to get a truly straight, flat, and true board is to joint one face flat, then plane the other face down parallel to the first. You can use either hand or power tools to accomplish this.

How do they get away without one? The same way that most home woodworkers get by not flattening the face of most stock they use for projects. Properly kiln drid wood is often flat enough on one face to get by without this step. If all you want to do is get by, then have at it!!!

Take a close look at the furniture they make there. If they don't joint their lumber, there will definitely be the occasional board that still has visible cup, twist or bow. Even with that, they can likely get away with this with small pieces of stock. Where this really shows up would be on a piece such as a bookcase with full height doors. The door stock has to be dead flat and true, otherwise the top and bottom will not be in the same plane when closed.

Regards,

John

I have to agree with this post. Furthermore, how many heavy iron planers have you seen with 8 foot infeed and outfeed tables? Try none. How about jointer? I own two myself.

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

What you say is quite true John but my take is different. I make stuff that sits outdoors in all weather without finish. If I take a board that is full of internal stress, so that it is cupped, bowed or twisted, and plane one face of it flat it will still be full of the same stress and when it goes through a couple of wet/dry cycles will start moving again. For my purposes I would rather throw that board in the firewood pile than send it out to a customer and have to replace it in a years time. I cut them down into shorter components (my shortest is 10" long) until they are "intrinsically" straight or if that isn't possible use them for cutting plugs for counterbores - or burn them.

The important point is that the eventual destination and environment of the finsihed product has to be borne in mind.

Ian, I learned this from my grandfather, and it is one of the best lessons I learned in wood working. If the board is stressed and behaves badly when I'm say resawing it to a useful size, yep, goes to the firewood pile for my buddy with the summer house on the beach that has a wood stove (not something you see here in Tokyo a lot).

Great advice!

[lou sansone]

hmmm
interesting thread... glad I don't have to do this for a living
lou

[Dennis Peacock]

Needless to say.....this has been MOST Educational to me. Thanks everyone for ALL your input...both positive and negative. I can ALWAYS count on my fellow Creeker's to come forward and help out in the time of needed info and guidance.

[Michael Disorbo]

Howdy,

Not sure where you all get your lumber, but I buy tons of rough cut from an old friend who has a mill. I use an old greenhouse I own to dry it. If you sticker it right and keep the sun off it it stays pretty straight. You have a few that may cup and twist but no big deal. I have not bought any milled lumber in years, to expensive for me. When I can get 400-500 brd ft of hickory for $15 I will keep filling that greenhouse. I just bought 4 nice logs of black walnut last fall for $100 and paid $80 to have them sawed. Some really nice stuff, some of it is 16" wide and 14 feet long. Ended up with a 1000 br ft, not bad for $180.

Oh by the way, I love my jointer. Use it everyday and am upgrading to a new one. Looking to get rid of an old one soon though. It is a 32" powerfeed jointer. Still trying to get to it to find the make and model. I am sure it was built in the early 1900's and its a beast. Powerfeed was made by Nels J. Billsrom. Table is 7' long. This thing has to weigh a ton or more and it even has a built in mobile base. In the early days they used 10" cast iron wheels for the base. I bet that old machine made a lot of chips in its day, that was when they did not use plywood for furniture! As soon as I get some details and some photos I will post it if anyone is interested.

Michael

[Mark Singer]

granted! a few months ago i did 20+ exterior french doors for a house that where 36x108 each. i was able to get them through my 37" widebelt but it was tight! when i make entrance doors i never use solid stock, i always glue up a core and laminate 3/8-1/2" faces to the core, i`ve found that by using an exterior grade glue and pressing the blanks in a vacuum bag i get dead flat, stable stock to work with. i started using this technique after a failure of some commercial doors made out of 12/4 stock many moons ago......02 tod
For doors made from anything but FAS Mahogany...I do the same...triple laminate the stiles for stability. I resay them or start wit 4/4 and still face joint.... The glue up is critical....it is te flatness you live with.

[tod evans]

For doors made from anything but FAS Mahogany...I do the same...triple laminate the stiles for stability. I resay them or start wit 4/4 and still face joint.... The glue up is critical....it is te flatness you live with.

mark, here`s a cutaway of one i did out of cypress, i turn the core laminations 90deg to the face.......02 tod

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