Any experience with liquid membrane waterproofing ?

[Perry Holbrook]

Getting ready to start on a goldfish/water feature pond. When we built the house last year we designed a space on the concrete deck for the pond, extra depth concrete with pilings. The pond will be about 84"x84"x16", so only about 600 gallons. The walls will be 6x8x16 concrete block and I will probably pour the voids with concrete. The outside wall will be ceramic tile, the inside walls will be skim coated with surface bonding concrete.

I don't want to use a rubber liner, mainly because of the excess folds in the corners. There are several "paint on" liquid membrane products available that will provide good waterproofing, so they say.

Anybody have actual experience using any such liquid membranes?

Thanks

[Doug Garson]

No experience with liquid membrane waterproofing but since you are going to have fish in the pond, make sure it is non toxic when cured. Sounds like this will be an above ground pond, suggest you include a bottom drain for cleaning. Don't know your climate but may not be deep enough for the fish to overwinter.

[Jim Becker]

I agree with Doug, just be sure that the product you choose is compatible with the wildlife you plan on supporting.

One thing...you absolutely have to consider what kind of fish you plan on supporting and I'm predicating that on an assumption that your pond is "in the ground" since you do get some level of winter conditions in NC, even if not for long periods of time. Some fish require greater depth than others. We chose to use goldfish types...Comets and Shubunkins...in the patio pond at our old property because they could overwinter safely with only about 26" of depth. Koi require more depth to survive cold weather. At least in SE PA which is not all that different weather wise than where you are. Talk to a local resource that does ponds to determine what's required before you finalize your plan. It also matters to number of fish that provide a stable population. They grow to whatever size they get based on the size of the pond and in general, will reproduce to keep up with "attrition". Also be wary of the local heron population. They love an "easy buffet".

[Perry Holbrook]

The pond is not in the ground but sits on the deck, designed for this purpose, although I called it a planter on the plans per the builder to avoid extra engineering cost. Believe me, it's designed to hold the weight!

It's more of a water feature than a goldfish pond although we do plan to put in a few $.25 fish. Going to design a real nice fountain with lots of water sounds while relaxing on the deck by the fire pit. Got a nice stocked pond about 50 yards from the deck that the heron use for a buffet. This little feature is tucked into a nook on the deck, not sure the hawks/herons will want to come in that close.

I know, the builder thought I was crazy too, especially when I first wanted it built into the deck rather than on top.

Still wondering about the liquid membrane.

[Doug Garson]

Off your original question but if the herons are a problem with your larger pond, here's a tip. Herons have incredibly good eyesight and large wingspans. The won't go anywhere where they can't take off and fly away if in danger. String monofilament fishing line over the pond perimeter say eight feet above ground, barely noticeable to humans but very effective at keeping herons away.

[Tom M King]

I used liquid membrane for lining tile showers for decades for the same reason you're considering it. I didn't want to deal with the sheet stuff folded up in the corners. As far as I know, there was never a single problem. I've never had a callback or complaint on any of the houses I built and sold. They are all close to where we live, and all the current owners surely must know that I built their house. I do get current owners to stop by and thank me for various things about their house.

edited to add: I'd use plasticizer in the block filling concrete. Not only will it make it easier to completely fill everything up, but will significantly improve the strength.

[George Yetka]

Dont know your situation but what about a preformed?

[Perry Holbrook]

Herons are not a problem in the bass/catfish pond, plenty of forage fish for them, we enjoy watching them.

Tom, so you used the stuff at Lowes/ Home Depot sold to go between backer board and tile? Only problem is what I've seen is pink or blue, I want black, wonder if I could dye it? Plasticized is a good idea, thanks.

[George Yetka]

507289
Ran into this guy eating a couple weeks ago

[Tom M King]

No. I used the membrane behind the backer board, and under the poured concrete floor in showers. I would just staple paper up the walls, and paint it on to tie it all together. It came from a tile supplier even in days before I ever saw a Lowes or Home Depot. I used to have to go a long ways to a dedicated tile supply place. I never did much with Lowes or Home Depot when I was building new houses.

I've never seen black, but would be worried the water would get too hot if the Sun hits it. They put a blue liner in the pool at Boy Scout camp and it got almost too hot to get in, much less do any swimming that required exertion.

[Doug Garson]

Not sure how much the liner color will affect the water temperature but a pond that small will heat up quite a bit if it's in full sun and surrounded by a concrete patio in full sun and as the temperature goes up the oxygen in the water goes down. Your fountain will add oxygen but on a hot day your fish may be stressed, adding an air pump and airstone might be a good idea even if only for hot weather.

[Perry Holbrook]

I do have a small concern about the water temp. I think the fountain design I have in mind will act like a cooling tower to some degree. It won't have a lot of direct sun and there are plans to add a pergola over it next year. The passive solar heating from the concrete deck may also be a negative but again not using expensive fish.

[Thomas McCurnin]

I've used them for showers for years, but not as a primary waterproofing membrane, insurance above the PVC as an extra layer of protection over the backerboard. If you use them under the backerboard, they will get punctured by nails or screws and there will be some leakage, not a big deal if it is above the primary PVC membrane. I don't believe the stuff is designed to be the finished coat from a wear or UV standpoint, so unless the manufacturer says so, I would steer clear of the product as a primary membrane and finish coat.

Rather I would use a double mortar sandwich type system identical to showers. Lowest and first level is concrete, then a sloping nearly dry barely wet mortar, then a PVC membrane, then a nice thick layer of nearly dry barely wet mortar. Folds are not a big deal--just make cuts on either side of the corner and use home made or manufacturer made corner patches, glued to the adjacent sides. Of course, you can avoid this membrane, and gluing altogether and have a shower guy install a hot mop membrane, at least 3 and preferably 5 coats of hot tar over sandwiches of tar paper. We have guys here that is all they do, and show up in a beat up Toyota pickup stained from hot tar, and a tar cooker in back and drizzle the hot tar where you want it for about $300. Its great for odd shaped surfaces where corners might not work or steam showers where the whole shower has to be waterproofed not just the first 10 inches.

I would also steer you to John Bridge tile forum (https://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1), similar to this one, but for tile, and either read the information there under a sticky or ask a direct question. They are partial to the orange Kerdi product there which is a trowel on membrane and plastic pieces, over which the tile substrate is thin set.

[Doug Garson]

I'd really wonder if a hot tar system would be non toxic when cured. Rather than looking to a tile forum I would look to a garden pond forum. I searched garden pond waterproofing concrete and found this thread https://www.gardenpondforum.com/threads/waterproofing-concrete-pond.31401/
Which referred to this product which sounds just what you are looking for.

https://www.amazon.ca/Pond-Armor-SKU-BLACK-QT-R-Shield-1-5-Quart/dp/B00I9X3TTY/ref=sr_1_4?hvadid=605130225240&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9001562&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=15953978479685709834&hvtargid=kwd-296728952131&hydadcr=7554_13560369&keywords=pond+armor&qid=1694043347&sr=8-4

[Stan Calow]

I used the Flex Seal product (of the loud and obnoxious commercials) to line the bottom of a concrete birdbath. Not my idea, it's one of their examples. Went on simply and sealed well. No issues so far. It comes in clear, white and black as well as gray. It makes it easy to clean since its such a smooth finish.

[Jim Becker]

The "feeder fish" from pet stores are basically goldfish (comets) and are great for this application as they are hardy. Honestly, that's what we started with at the old property.

[Perry Holbrook]

The "feeder fish" from pet stores are basically goldfish (comets) and are great for this application as they are hardy. Honestly, that's what we started with at the old property.

Yep, that's what I used at the old house. Other than losing a few to the bears, they survived well.

[Perry Holbrook]

I'd really wonder if a hot tar system would be non toxic when cured. Rather than looking to a tile forum I would look to a garden pond forum. I searched garden pond waterproofing concrete and found this thread https://www.gardenpondforum.com/threads/waterproofing-concrete-pond.31401/
Which referred to this product which sounds just what you are looking for.

https://www.amazon.ca/Pond-Armor-SKU-BLACK-QT-R-Shield-1-5-Quart/dp/B00I9X3TTY/ref=sr_1_4?hvadid=605130225240&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9001562&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=15953978479685709834&hvtargid=kwd-296728952131&hydadcr=7554_13560369&keywords=pond+armor&qid=1694043347&sr=8-4

Pond Armor is one of the products I'm looking at, along with SEMCO Liquid Membrane™ - Waterproofing Liquid Membrane (https://www.semcoworks.com/products/liquid-membrane?fbc_id=23854441043590095&h_ad_id=23854441043720095&fbclid=IwAR0MnqkPLNqEyIrpfflCumfFIV5eKSlNP-qlzzrhcxjYJnB8PMUuBhOHoeA)

[Doug Garson]

I think you should stock it with this. :cool: Go big or go home eh?
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/EdomKbzr9Ns/maxresdefault.jpg

[Cameron Wood]

Pond Armor is one of the products I'm looking at, along with SEMCO Liquid Membrane™ - Waterproofing Liquid Membrane (https://www.semcoworks.com/products/liquid-membrane?fbc_id=23854441043590095&h_ad_id=23854441043720095&fbclid=IwAR0MnqkPLNqEyIrpfflCumfFIV5eKSlNP-qlzzrhcxjYJnB8PMUuBhOHoeA)



That looks like an expensive PIA- read the reviews.

I would use Thoroseal. There are Youtubes showing the details. The light, neutral color is good for your set up.

For large planters and such, I tend to use torch-on roofing. Flexible, both physically, and in variety of applications.

[Perry Holbrook]

Thanks Cameron, I have actually used Thoroseal before for a different application and forgot about it. I think that is what I'll use. Plus with it the surface bonding cement will not be necessary.