The decline in quality of furniture

[Edward Weber]

Some of you might enjoy this

https://www.washingtonpost.com/home/2023/09/05/new-furniture-quality-doesnt-last/

[Cameron Wood]

Worth reading- thanks.

"micro-aesthetic of the moment"

It's not just furniture. Whole houses regularly get rebuilt and remodeled on the whim of the (usually) new owner, including tile bathrooms & whole kitchens just to get a different look from the one that is ten years old. Too much money sloshing around.

[Mike Mason]

Worth reading- thanks.

"micro-aesthetic of the moment"

It's not just furniture. Whole houses regularly get rebuilt and remodeled on the whim of the (usually) new owner, including tile bathrooms & whole kitchens just to get a different look from the one that is ten years old. Too much money sloshing around.

I agree, I sometimes see entire sets of kitchen cabinets on craigslist that are being given away for free, even though they are in good condition, simply because the new owners want a different look.

[Cameron Wood]

I agree, I smnetimes see entire sets of kitchen cabinets on craigslist that are being given away for free, even though they are in good condition, simply because the new owners want a different look.

That's how I got my kitchen cabinets (not free, but inexpensive). It wasn't quite as bad- the house was fixed up for sale, and the buyers realized that a wall blocked the million dollar view from the kitchen, which led to major work including taking out the cabinets that weren't even fully installed yet. That house was steel framed, not sheet metal, but structural steel- you don't see that too often. I was able to use almost every piece, and had to order maybe two additional cabinets.

[Derek Cohen]

There is another aspect to consider as well as cheaper materials: how design has evolved, and why ...

https://toolsforworkingwood.com/store/blog/1345/title/Silhouettes

https://toolsforworkingwood.com/store/blog/1346/title/Silhouettes%202%20(This%20Time%20It's%20Personal)

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Keegan Shields]

Interesting thoughts in the articles you shared Derek.

I do think that industry sets (both through advertising and social media) what consumers "want" based on what is profitable to manufacture. Similar to the fashion industry.

And just like social media's need to constantly generate the next trend, consumers have been trained to follow the latest. The home décor version of fast fashion (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_fashion).

I have always thought that part of the enduring influence of mid century modern furniture is how easy cheap, high margin copies are to manufacture.



So in my view, its less about what consumers want and more about what manufacturers want to sell. It's more profitable to sell a $500 dining table at 50% margin every 2 years than it is to sell a $5,000 table at 20% margin every 10 years. Much better for cash flow also.

[Stan Calow]

I think that's another way of saying the free market decides what products sell.

The market for $5000 tables is small and shrinking. Not everyone has the ability to make such a choice. My kids dont want any of our furniture, they already have their own. I see the good stuff at estate sales for pennies on the dollar.

[Mike Mason]

There is another aspect to consider as well as cheaper materials: how design has evolved, and why ...

https://toolsforworkingwood.com/store/blog/1345/title/Silhouettes

https://toolsforworkingwood.com/store/blog/1346/title/Silhouettes%202%20(This%20Time%20It's%20Personal)

Regards from Perth

Derek

Very interesting read, thanks for the links. I personally much prefer the minimalistic, less cluttered look, but my wife doesn't. I do find myself "less than relaxed" when there is too much stuff around.

[Edwin Santos]

I'm glad the article talked about the waste implications of the disposable furniture trend. Human beings collectively create a staggering amount of waste that ends up in landfills, oceans or worse yet, burned up.

[Pat Germain]

There are many factors beyond trends. When I was a young parent, I was well aware most furniture I bought at a local store was garbage. But I simply couldn't afford actual hardwood furniture. I lived in Virginia at the time and antique stores scarfed up anything old and high quality so they could sell it with an extreme markup. That's one of the reasons I wanted to get into woodworking. I like working with my hands and I wanted to build furniture. But the challenges of being a parent simply didn't allow for the space, tools and time. I did manage to build some nice bookcases and a bed for my daughter, but not the whole house of furniture I dreamed about. (Now that I'm an empty-nester, I hoping to at least somewhat achieve that dream.)

People like to argue the point, but it's a sad fact that things are much more expensive now than they were in the 1950s. No more cheap used cars. No more lower-cost housing in lower-cost parts of town. No more cheap gasoline. And college? Good golly, how does anyone save for their kids' college these days? Furniture? People just need something cheap to sit on.

Almost always, people buy crappy furniture because that's all they can afford. As a rare exception, I do know a couple who can afford to buy good furniture, but they simply didn't know any better. They both came from very humble backgrounds in families that had mostly used furniture. They furnished their home with stuff from the local American Furniture Warehouse. After a few years my friend shared, "All that stuff fell apart". Lesson learned. She can now buy higher quality furniture, but most people can't.

[Andreas Sohre]

I appreciated the linked articles, especially because they went beyond the immediate criticism of cheap crap from evil manufacturers.

As mentioned in the articles, there can be very deliberate design choices for simple and minimalistic looks. Simple doesn't have to mean cheap and disposable. As a hobbyist, I enjoy designing furniture that has clean and very basic forms. I also prefer solid lumber and the look of natural wood, so it's typically some type of "brown furniture". But to my aesthetics, simple shapes just look more appealing than some of the ornate historic furniture. Just subjective taste.

There are also very practical reasons why the Ikea type is so popular. I read a comment that stuck with me: Many more people live in crowded cities now. Especially young people, who don't have much income (yet?), smaller apartments for rent, and lack of transportation options for big, heavy furniture. (And I'm not even sure the heirloom-piece is more cost-effective in the long-run, compared to multiple iterations of cheap, disposable furniture.) And with the prospect of lugging said piece through stairways / small elevators, Ikea-type flat boxes sound like a godsend if I put myself in that situation.

And, obviously, the low cost of budget furniture is insane to compete with. I enjoy making my own pieces as a hobby, the pride of seeing it and because I get exactly what I dreamt up. (However flawed...) But I've also done this long enough to give up any notions of cost-effectiveness. It's a hobby for me, but in most cases I can't even source comparable materials at a lower rate than budget furniture costs as a finished piece (forget about any labor or margins). I built out closets for my kids and realized that using and modifying Ikea components was cheaper than building components from scratch. Not fancy plywood, but white veneer-particle board from box stores. When I added up the material / hardware I would need, it was pretty sobering to compare (not that I was excited to work with particle-board to begin with).

[Pat Germain]

There are also very practical reasons why the Ikea type is so popular. I read a comment that stuck with me: Many more people live in crowded cities now. Especially young people, who don't have much income (yet?), smaller apartments for rent, and lack of transportation options for big, heavy furniture. (And I'm not even sure the heirloom-piece is more cost-effective in the long-run, compared to multiple iterations of cheap, disposable furniture.) And with the prospect of lugging said piece through stairways / small elevators, Ikea-type flat boxes sound like a godsend if I put myself in that situation.

That is a good point. My son lives in Denver proper. Someone offered him a very nice couch and dropped it off in front of my son's apartment. Turned out there was just no way that couch would fit through the door to my son's tiny, basement apartment. He contacted all his friends who advised the couch was also too big for their apartments or they had no way to transport it. The next day it rained. The couch was destroyed and eventually hauled to the dump. It no surprise my son has multiple IKEA pieces.

[Tom M King]

I didn't read the links, but over decades of selling houses, I saw a steady decline in people appreciating quality. One reason I quit was that the color of rooms became more important than how all the doors operated. Every decade saw a decrease in knowledge by homebuyers, and that was all high income class.

[Warren Lake]

one of the germans I knew had very nice furniture. He built it all plus floors windows mouldings and all. His wife is still in the home. she told me they used cardboard boxes for furniture till their mortgage was paid off. He had his machines and shop attached to his home. When he retired he was in the shop every day building furniture for family till he passed.

[Michael Burnside]

Great articles, very interesting reads and I appreciate Edward and Derek sharing.

The people that frequent this forum are going to be biased, myself included. I'd guess most of us on this thread are more than capable of building their own heirloom furniture pieces using quality woods, techniques AND TOOLS. Furthermore, I'd guess most of you could actually tell the difference between cheap and quality, even if you didn't like the style.

I grew up with hard working parents but besides shelter, food and the basics, we didn't have a lot of money. My dad and I fixed everything, we bought used, built our own, etc. I went to school, worked hard and I'm at the point where money isn't an issue. That said, I've never lost sight or perspective about where I came from. Tools are expensive, damn expensive. I have more tools in my shop than my parents made in a year combined, never mind what it cost to actually build my shop or purchase the land it sits on. Quality wood is expensive. In brass, rough walnut and hard maple, I dropped 1100 to build a modern turntable cabinet. At $1100 that's already a ton, count my labor, which is the most expensive part, and it's unaffordable to most.

I paid someone to build me a 9'x40" walnut table and custom metal legs. Let's just say it was "over" $5,000 at the end of the day :). Why? Because they have incredible skill, do amazing work and I can appreciate and afford what it takes, in labor, to get there. Not everyone is going to be of the same mindset or have the same opportunity.

I won't turn my nose at an Ikea piece, or Ikea hack to make something look like more than it is, but I am glad the first article hit on the environmental cost. It's the one thing that keeps me up at night and the one thing that frustrates me and I let my kids know it, so the next generation is aware of it. This "disposable" mindset of throw away instead of repair/renew/recycle or built without considerations to methods/plastics/chemicals that go into the land instead of your living room need constraints. I hope we can, in the near future, find a middle ground somewhere.

[Andrew More]

I didn't read the links, but over decades of selling houses, I saw a steady decline in people appreciating quality. One reason I quit was that the color of rooms became more important than how all the doors operated. Every decade saw a decrease in knowledge by homebuyers, and that was all high income class.

I think I've worked under some of those people.

[Greg Quenneville]

I became a woodworker because I couldn’t afford the stratospheric prices for the furniture that I liked. That same 250 year old brown furniture is now cheaper than the Ikea type throw-away stuff. Homes too are in the same price:quality death spiral, so I had to make my own.

i rarely encounter anyone who understands the elements of quality design and construction of anything.

[Mike Mason]

I didn't read the links, but over decades of selling houses, I saw a steady decline in people appreciating quality. One reason I quit was that the color of rooms became more important than how all the doors operated. Every decade saw a decrease in knowledge by homebuyers, and that was all high income class.

I know this will make me sound like an old grouch (and maybe I am), but I think there's been a steady decline in USEFUL knowledge for many years, whether it's repairing things, taking care of a house or car, etc. I know that my uncles, who grew up in an orphanage with my mother and certainly didn't have anyone there to teach them, learned how to do things for themselves, could fix almost anything, and they weren't afraid to try to do so - and this was before the explosion of readily available information that we have today with the internet. However, a lot of the people these days who have little USEFUL knowledge can tell you all about celebrities, internet influencers, role-playing games, bizarre reality shows, etc.

Just one example from many I could cite: I know of a young couple who literally almost killed themselves when they ordered ten cases of black spray paint and used it to spray paint the underside of the first floor flooring in their unfinished basement in order to get that "blacked out" look you see in newer restaurants (in which they paint everything one color - ceiling, ductwork, conduit, etc.) in lieu of a finished or suspended ceiling. After a while, they both were gradually overcome by fumes, and feeling faint and tired, they decided they would take a short nap and return to their project afterwards. If the husband hadn't first noticed the black streaks around his wife's nose, they probably would both be dead. They did know enough to then open all the windows (this was winter time) and they left for a hotel while their house aired out for a few days. When the wife told me about it, she wasn't even embarrassed. I asked her why they didn't just roll on black latex paint, which would have cost a tiny fraction of all that spray paint and would have been much quicker and safer, and they had never thought of it, they only knew about black spray paint from a craft show on tv. She once asked a coworker if she could pay him to come to their house to change the simple knob on a closet door because her husband wouldn't even attempt to do it himself. He told her he wanted $50 plus the cost of the knob, hoping to just put her off, but she thought that was a bargain so he did it. They also didn't know that you have to change oil in a car regularly, even if the level isn't low. BTW, they are both college graduates, albeit in not-too-difficult, trendy "pseudo" majors.

[Paul Koenigs]

Some people can only afford low quality furniture.. I understand and respect that..

But there's many middle class people that just don't value good furniture anymore.
It goes beyond the kitchen table too. They don't want to spend to get a quality couch/sectional or chair.. They are ok with the fact that it might only last 3 years and need replaced. I mean, it's fun to buy new stuff, I Guess?

I have a dining room table from my grandparents. It's almost 100 years old. Still in great shape. It does need to be refinished, which I will do. Yes, I know this will kill any value.. but I'm sure the piece has no value anyhow.. Point is, even if I refinished it and did a great job, I bet I would have trouble giving it away, despite it being solid pecan. Someone else made the point about how nice furniture at an estate sale is insanely cheap.
People want white or painted furniture now too. And as someone else said, a lot of people really don't even know what solid wood really is, even if they saw it. I'm not saying that to be a snob, it's just that no one cares enough now to know the difference. It looks good at Ikea, it's cheap, they buy it.

[Matt Lau]

I couldn't read the original article, since it was paywalled.

I dunno, I think we're talking to the choir. How many people are passionate enough to actually learn something? Most creekers have mastered the craft, and are thirsty to try to better themselves. Most creekers will pay extra, whether it's for an Oliver bandsaw or a Felder multi tool, or a Grace screwdriver.

I've come to accept that I can buy better quality used furniture for cheaper than the price of materials + labor.
I've come to accept that I'm probably not gonna build my own dining table anytime soon.

That being said, I built my own coffee table with about $450 of materials and 20 hours of time.
I'm pretty proud of it...even though my sister's Facebook Marketplace coffee table is better, and costed $250.

[roger wiegand]

When I was a grad student living on $216/month I certainly had very inexpensive furniture-- nothing more than $10 or so and much of it free, but it was all solid, well made furniture, some of which is still in our house today. You don't have to have bad furniture to get cheap furniture, even more so today. Yes, none of it particularly matched-- that carries over to the mix of walnut, maple, and cherry that fills our house today-- and some of it needed an afternoon or three of refinishing effort. But it functioned well and a lot of it was really quite nice. My kids buy junk despite knowing the difference. They just don't value the difference enough to spend time and energy seeking out good used furniture. Given how busy they are with multiple jobs, going to school, and making at least a little effort at finding partners, I get that. I couldn't have done what they need to do and still have time to work on furniture. They know the particle board special is going to break at some point so the next time they get priced out of their minuscule rentals they can leave it behind rather than moving it. They do each have a couple small "Dad pieces" that they haven't left behind so far.

[Mike Henderson]

Around here, people occasionally put old furniture out for the garbage people to pick up (special pickup). I always check it out to see if it's solid wood. It if were, I'd grab it and take it apart for the wood. Unfortunately, I haven't found *any* solid wood furniture going to garbage - just particle board. But I keep looking.

I had a guy give me some solid wood furniture which I took apart. They just didn't want it any more. It was pretty ugly but the wood was good.

I'm definitely not a fan of mid-century modern.

Mike

[Curt Harms]

It gets pretty expensive to replace heirloom quality furniture every few years ...... to "keep up with the Joneses". It requires tuning out the 'influencers' to be satisfied with the same furniture for many years or a lifetime, no matter how high quality.

[Edward Weber]

When I was growing up, we only bought new furniture when something broke beyond the point of repair. There was no such thing as "this is out of style" Our furniture was utilitarian not a fashion trend.

Another thing is that old solid wood furniture can be reclaimed, refinished or broken down for the raw material, MDF and chip board can't.

[Andrew More]

I know this will make me sound like an old grouch (and maybe I am), but I think there's been a steady decline in USEFUL knowledge for many years, whether it's repairing things, taking care of a house or car, etc. I know that my uncles, who grew up in an orphanage with my mother and certainly didn't have anyone there to teach them, learned how to do things for themselves, could fix almost anything, and they weren't afraid to try to do so - and this was before the explosion of readily available information that we have today with the internet. However, a lot of the people these days who have little USEFUL knowledge can tell you all about celebrities, internet influencers, role-playing games, bizarre reality shows, etc.

I think people pay attention to what's important to them. I hear a lot of people complain about the crap on the internet, and there is a LOT of crap, but you don't have to pay attention. Unlike 20 years ago there are more than 3 channels of TV and the library for info. People have a lot more ability to get information on things that are important to them. I couldn't have imagined seeing an entire series on building Windsor chairs, but there's a several hour long series on YouTube about it, rubbing shoulders with news the influencers, and people peddling stuff.

Also in defense of people not being able to fix things, everything has become more complex, and difficult to fix. Cars, computers, phones, you name it, the complexity has increased, the price has gone down, it's almost easier to throw things away. We've got a TV repair store in town, but I think the only reason he's still there is because he's been doing it for decades and probably enjoys it enough to pay the rent. I doubt he's making much money at it. I had a 1080p Sony 55" TV I had to give away, nobody would even given me $50 for it.

[Warren Lake]

Its important to have the right customers. I wish the trade was certified like in europe. You cant even have a business unless you did the training and time. Protects the people in the trade and theoretically should keep a level of quality or it did in the past and id say now its been dumbed down by gizmo inventors. Still ive seen you tubes of trained guys doing it as taught past.

I had a customer once tell me that a year before they went to someone else cause they thought I was too expensive. Turned out he cost more and the work wasnt as good. While it hurt and offended after days it sunk in it was the best thing that could have happened. Its hard to educate some people on what you are doing or get them to understand. Ive always tried to show them why work is better. My material was better and laid out better my finishing was better. They got it after they did that and I learned a lesson to welcome that. Even getting good material is hard. 20 percent of the wood in a lift of top grade wood on average is what ill want.

I had a customer tell me I was too expensive right from the start then give me over 5 years of work. At one point I drove 950 miles with a prototype. On the drive home my brain was auto dictating a letter on all the reasons why and what it was and that it was not overpriced. Wish there was a chip in my brain that recorded the thoughts as I listened. Several weeks later I got an order for 10k to start. Another lesson, im not sure in what. People are confusing? They were great customers and told me they tried for 10 years to find someone to do the work right. Im not sure if they ever got it but they treated me well.

Doing it again I would have got into auto restoration. All my friends that do it have endless work and are paid well. People spend like crazy because some old cars truly do make you feel good when you drive. They have character new stuff doesnt have or at least different and more raw character. Some amount is ego, maybe lots. No one will know or care you spent 7k on a vanity. I drive a Saturn im not noticed. I drive my truck and everyone loves me.

The hard part is finding the right people to work for. I gave Thos Moser as an example of one who has. Give him tons of credit for that. Hes outlasted everyone. IM sure ive seen over 100 shops go down since i started likely more.

[John TenEyck]

The only thing that bothers me about cheap, anything, is the environmental cost because of its short life. Other than that, I could care less. People who want quality will find it, or if they can't afford it, some will learn to make it themselves, as I did when we first bought our house and a dining table cost half a month's salary, maybe more. People who don't care about quality, and those who do but can't afford it, are served by all the low-end offerings out there.

The high cost of furniture when I first bought a house is what got me into furniture and cabinet making. Too bad stuff is so cheap today. There's even less incentive for people to take up this amazing and rewarding craft but some, hopefully, still will. As for what I build, I make stuff that suits me, or a client if I'm lucky enough to have one now and then. I make things that will outlast me and then some but have no delusions any of it will be around in 100 years. And that's OK. Architecture changes, tastes change, not always for the better but it happens, nonetheless, and that means stuff gets trashed, unfortunately. Some means of recycling more of what's ending up in the landfill is an opportunity for someone, and I hope they come up with a business model that works, soon.

John

[Derek Cohen]

There will always be cheaply made furniture, because this is a market point. Not everyone can afford that with more costly wood and traditional construction, which adds to the price.

I could instead point to the decline in design appreciation, since social priorities guide many to alternative references, such as phones, cars, and filling a house is less important than owning a house. Has awareness and appreciation of quality furniture declined? I cannot say - we are the choir and biased in our thinking. Ikea offers an amazing set of choices, both low cost and some brilliant designs (simpler does not mean cheaper, but here simple is also part of production methodology), but mostly they will end up in landfill. Most are not thinking about that last part only the affordable end.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Scott Winners]

This is crazy, 'schizmogenic' as one of my anthropology profs would have said.

I just recently, unexpectedly, moved into a new space in a new season of life and picked up a dresser/chest of drawers from CL for $100 cash and carry. The item was made in North Carolina with 1/8 white oak veneer on poplar secondary throughout. For me to build this thing for free I would be looking at $2k in white oak. If I were to invest in a resawing system to slice 1/8 white oak veneer I would have to invest thousands and would have to sell dozens of items to break even on the veneer cutter.

I am not sure what the fundamental problem is here. One of them is the difference between quality and not quality; another is an appreciation in $ for the time of the woodworker to build quality instead of junk.
.

[Edward Weber]

The "market" drives quality as much as anything does.
If I want a solid wood dresser, I can certainly buy one. If I want a dresser that will just do the job of holding clothes, I can buy that as well and have enough left over to pay the electric and mortgage. There is a price point for everyone but the article is basically talking about the "average" customer when it comes to quality.
For the vast majority of people, buying something they like the appearance of, that will do the job is all they care about. These days, that's all you need to care about, unless you want to be able to hand it down to your children.

What many average (not woodworkers) see, two similar tables.
507460507461
One costs $369 the other costs $3350, which is which?
For many people the choice is easy, or often no choice at all.


For many on this board, we could make our own solid wood furniture, using our own hand picked quality materials and construction methods. The price would come in somewhere between what sells at Ikea or Wayfair and what sells at a high end furniture gallery, Which for many, is why they do it.