Chess board round 2

[Charlie Fox]

so i have started a new chess board project. walnut and white oak. 2-1/4" regulation. got the halves glued up, and plan on resawing them to get them thinner. have access to a 14" horizontal band saw - dont know the brand but it is industrial - used by one of the top 3 hardwood dealers and custom mills in Houston. since its 14" obviously i had to keep the boards as halves and do the last glue up later. but the only times i have milled anything on this saw was 2"+ natural edge slabs resawed in half, worked great but a bit anxious.

after planing we are at 1-5/16" thick now or 1.3125. assuming 1/16" kerf, 2 cuts is 1/8" loss so i'd have 1.1875"/3 = .396" thick pieces. after final glue up and drum sanding i'll assume about 1/3" or maybe a little thicker.

1) so is that reasonable? i realize none of you know this exact saw but assuming it is as good as they come would you expect pretty decent cuts with minimal if no drift? or should i cut in half and drum sand more to get a thinner board at the end?? obviously i would prefer 9 chess boards to 6 but as a beginner i'll still take it.

2) and is 1/3" thin enough to be able to glue to a substrate to eliminate movement down the road? or should i drum sand more to get it thinner? i guess if i get a little drift i can just drum sand more to even it out - hence thinner end product.

3) what substrate? guy at a woodcraft recommended baltic birch, another person suggested MDF. and yet another complained that his plywood substrate curled.

4) should i glue the frame to substate only or to the edge of board and substrate both?

5) and should i do a miter frame, or 90deg joints? i prefer the latter because i like wider walnut frame north and south and the WO on the sides. and its a little easier.

6) or would i still be better off if i made a frame larger than the board with a rabbet at the top so the board floats in it? hoping that the thin wood over substrate would eliminate that need.

7) and is it chessboard or chess board? criminy i cant find anyone agreeing on that even. ;-)


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[Charlie Fox]

aw c'mon somebody is bound to be able to help me a little here.....

[Charlie Fox]

ok, so it cost me a whopping $27 to have all 6 half/chessboards resawed by 3 - now i can make 9 boards. they are roughly 3/8" or a little better due to a small amount of drift in the cut - nothing that cant be taken out with a little planing, so i should end up with 1/4" thickness. now my dilemna:

not real sure i want to put two roughly 9"x 24" x only1/4"thick panels in my Rockler 36" panel clamps - i only have two, and the panels will have some degree of warping so i would likey need at least a third clamp in the center. still.....1/4" glue surface is one thing at 6" width, but its a whole nuther at 24"

so i am thinking the best bet is to cut my strips from the half panels, then flipping every other one and glueing the strips individually to the substrate. thats 16 strips, but i have a brand new Forrest blade on my table saw and a very well made crosscut sled so i am fairly confident on my cut accuracy and precision. once done, that whole board can then easily go through a 24" drum sander to even it all out - again - a whopping $27 it will cost me to run 9 boards through. $3 bucks each.

come guys help me out. ya'll were real quick to chastise me for making a solid 6/4 chess board with cross grain frame, and then even more flak because i didnt take everyones advice directly to heart even though some of it was conflicting - and now i am trying to do it the right way and all i get is crickets.

and the $million question - baltic birch or MDF for the substrate? or other? and the thicker the better? 1/2 min or 3/4 better methinks
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[Jim Becker]

As long as you're close to that .25" thickness or thinner, you should have no major issue gluing to a substrate such as MDF or BB. Personally, I'd use the MDF because it's more economical and generally very flat. If you sand the surface to be glued first, you should get an excellent bond, and becasue there's little movement with that substrait, a solid banding of reasonable narrowness around the whole assembly should also be trouble free.

[Charlie Fox]

thank you sir but "a solid banding of reasonable narrowness around the whole assembly should also be trouble free" not totally cklear on this - in other words keep the frame under 2" or so?

but my real issue is this - with cutting boards and earlier chessboards you glue up original strips, cut 90deg, then flip every other strip and glue again - thats fine and dandy for 1"+ stock but i just dont see glueing 8 strips under clamp pressure at 1/4" thickness. even with rockler panel clamps its buckle city..

so - instead of gluing strips together, i need to look to gluing the strips side by side onto the substrate. may take longer, but easy to align and all. i purposely made my outside strips 1/4" wider to allow for squaring adjustments later.

so with 9 boards available, i can experiment with the first and if worse comes to worse i can give it away or maybe get an hour of brisket cooked with it.

[Charlie Fox]

Mr. Becker:

please clarify:
"As long as you're close to that .25" thickness or thinner, you should have no major issue gluing to a substrate such as MDF or BB."

but obviously 1/4" of MDF/BB is too little, 3" overkill. 1/2"? 3/4" 1"? what would be the min? with 9 boards cost can be spread about easily, so thicker is not a deal breaker

[Mike Mason]

Just a week or two ago there was a thread on the same topic with many responses that goes into great depth and might answer your questions. If you haven't, check it out.

[Charlie Fox]

Just a week or two ago there was a thread on the same topic with many responses that goes into great depth and might answer your questions. If you haven't, check it out.


yeah i am pretty sure that post was me getting ripped for making a solid wood chess board wiith cross grain frame. gorgoueos as all get out but everyone said it would fail except a few that said it wouldnt and all in all i was told i had to listen only to the ones that said it would fail and because i questioned the science i was told i was an idiot. in a nut shell. so - i took it to heart with no hard feelings and am now making my next set of chessboards out of a thinner material glued to a substrate - just like the experts here have said i should have done in the beginning..


so i have my half panels resawed to ~3/8" - i have just spent an hour and 2 craft Texas beers sitting and staring at my project (who doesnt do that?) figuring out how to make a plywood base t-track clamping system to glue up the panels. got it nailed. my 36" Rockler panel clamps are just inviting trouble gluing up 1/4" thick panels 24" wide IMHO. your mileage may vary but i just recently got these clamps and they arent the easiest things to get perfect your first time. hell - even the Rockler staff said they used to offer a class in how to use them! i am not that dumb - but still.....i like my "in my head" design for a t-track clampoing system.

i am very confident that i can create perfect chessboard pattern - just want the BEST substrate and cost is not an issue - if its $50 for a quarter sheet/1 chess board then it goes in to the final price. the cost is justified in the quality.


so MDF? balltic birch? or old fashioned particle board? (hey a lot of pool tables are made from particle board so there must be someting to it)

titebond 3 or epoxy?

[John Kananis]

1) baltic birch is great stuff, mdf for weight.

2) folks aren't responding because you're not listening to reason. Your pieces are too thick and you'll have cracks. What's wrong with 1/16th? What do you achieve by using more material?

[Jim Becker]

Mr. Becker:

please clarify:
"As long as you're close to that .25" thickness or thinner, you should have no major issue gluing to a substrate such as MDF or BB."

but obviously 1/4" of MDF/BB is too little, 3" overkill. 1/2"? 3/4" 1"? what would be the min? with 9 boards cost can be spread about easily, so thicker is not a deal breaker



The .25" reference was for the solid stock thick veneer, not the substrate.

On your question about the edge banding, make it look proportional, but I'd likely stay below that 2" you ask about 'cause wood moves and miter the corners for the best look.

[Kent A Bathurst]

folks aren't responding because you're not listening to reason. Your pieces are too thick and you'll have cracks.


...that post was me getting ripped for making a solid wood chess board ...

....panels resawed to ~3/8"........2 craft Texas beers sitting and staring.......t-track clamping system........36" Rockler panel clamps.....1/4" thick panels.....


John's correct - You weren't getting ripped. You were getting disagreed with and made it personal, I'm sad to say. And annoyed some very good folks in the process.

I'll lead with my chin one last time:

You can continue to shrink the thickness, but wood doesn't negotiate, regardless of beer type or quantity. Jim said .25 or thinner. Get to no more than 1/8.

Put the clamping system, t-track, bench cookies, and all related stuff away. You don't use clamps on this task. The task is how to glue up shop-made veneer, not how glue up solid wood.

Get a roll of blue masking tape. Get some surface wood scraps of the proper dimensions to use for training. Get some T-III. Get some waxed paper.

Get some MDF or BB of whatever thickness you think it should be for the finished board to look how you want it to look.

Then read this instructional posting by Derek Cohen. Ignore the thickness of his boards and focus on the process. There are many web instructions that show exactly the same thing, but I knew were to find this one, so I grabbed it. Google "using shop-made veneer" or something like that.

Do as many test runs as you can until you use up the rest of the case of beer.

https://www.inthewoodshop.com/Furniture/PanelGlueUpWithoutClamps.html


You want to make the full-sized veneer surface, which then gets attached to the substrate base.

Then get more beer and ponder how to glue that sucker to an over-sized base, how to trim the oversized base, and how to secure the border pieces.

[Charlie Fox]

1) baltic birch is great stuff, mdf for weight.

2) folks aren't responding because you're not listening to reason. Your pieces are too thick and you'll have cracks. What's wrong with 1/16th? What do you achieve by using more material?


yes i am listening to reason- thats why why i have resawed and i am here in the first place. and there was some drift in the resawing on a piece or two so by the time i plane it i will be below .25 - more like 1/8, one board may even have to be 1/16

but still no one has said what the best thickness is for the substrate. Jim thought i was thinking .25 but no, i realize he was talking about the stock, i would never consider a substrate that thin. so unless i hear otherwise 1" mdf should be fine

i am going to build a t-track table to clamp and glue the two halves (after planing), then its to the cross cut sled to cut the strips and flip every other one and glue to the mdf. i have read some comments around the interwebs where the substrate plywood curled on them, so i am thinking they just used a substrate not thick enough. i would think 1" mdf even with 1/4" veneer would hold up.

[John Kananis]

3/4 substrate (mdf) and 1/8 material will give you close to an inch. However, you must also veneer the back of the substrate or you're going to get warp in the board.

[Charlie Fox]

3/4 substrate (mdf) and 1/8 material will give you close to an inch. However, you must also veneer the back of the substrate or you're going to get warp in the board.

you are the first to mention this - hoping others agree. but lets take it to the extreme - if i glued 1/64" veneer to mdf i dont think it would warp. if i glued 1" "veneer" i think it would certainly warp - but again, there has to be a happy middle somewhere. if its 1/16" glued to 3/4 or 1" mdf it would it still warp you think?

[Jim Morgan]

Lots of good advice here. John TenEyck often uses shopsawn veneer - you might search for his posts to see how he deals with it.

If your chessboard squares will have grain running in different directions, you will be best off with a grainless substrate, i.e., mdf. ¾" or 1" thick is fine, depends on the look you are going for.

A corollary to my sig: use the right material for the application.

[Michael Burnside]

There is no wrong answer to how thick the substrate should be. If you want to add a drawer for storage below, then it's much thicker, if you just want a 3/4"-1" thick board when all said and done, go with 1/2" or 3/4" MDF or ply of your choice. I would miter and spline the corners with a band of wood around the edges to hide the substrate. Might even raise the edge 1/16" higher than the board to give it dimension.

[Charlie Fox]

[QUOTE=Kent A Bathurst;3272955]John's correct - You weren't getting ripped. You were getting disagreed with and made it personal, I'm sad to say. And annoyed some very good folks in the process.

I'll lead with my chin one last time:.....

>>>>>>>>>

well if i pissed people off it wont be the first time and i apologize - but i question science - like i do Fauci. there are people that have posted here and other places where they crossed grain and 10 yrs later it is still fine. others had the project blow up in a matter of weeks. so obviously its not 100% but i juist think there is a medium goldilocks zone somewhere. i.e. i realize a poly finish will not seal the project from moisture - but it WILL prevent a certain amount, and if that certain amount is just enough to keep it from moving then its a win - thats all i tried to put across but people took that and similar logic to mean i wasnt listening at all - which is not the case. thats why i am now doing this project now and asking for more guidance. a stack of hay will break the camels back - but if you remove one straw at a time at some point the camels back doesnt break. thats all i intended to make clear. i have a hard science and engineering so i look at things in a very anlytical manner and constantly rethink things - sure you cant reinvent the wheel - but wheels are continuously being improved.

and a heartfelt THANK YOU for that link - makes total sense. however - and dont get angry lol - i think i will use the t track along with the tape because A) i already have it and B) it will allow me to use cauls just like he did oin that link to keep the boards flat, only even better imho. no clamping intended - but just a teensy bit to aid in alignment but still not enough to get any more squeezeout than the tape on its own does. clearly a tight clamping would be useless since this is a glue-up for attachment purposes only and not a joint that will have any stress.

with especially that link you so graciously took the time to provide along with the other comments both + and - i feel i have a clear path forward in all aspects. the blue tape totally capped it off - thanks again. plenty of that and tb3 always on hand around my garage shop.

i'll bow out now and will post my results in a few weeks - cant do anything sooner as i have to go to BC for 2 weeks and will totally enjoy getting away from this stifling texas summer.

and i DO thank you again. that totally cleared up the main dilemna i was facing on the construction.

[Jim Becker]

I agree with veneering the bottom, but largely because of appearance. The border will help keep things flat on something like this and if the thick veneer is applied with cauls and weight, it's more like laminating two boards, rather than veneering in the traditional sense but putting a layer on the bottom will assure things stay flatter easier. This should have been mentioned earlier...my bad for missing it, but I'm glad that John brought it up.

[Kent A Bathurst]

The veneer on the bottom is to provide moisture regulating similar to top side. Prevent warping. At the extreme end of caution you would use same species, thickness, and finish. Don’t forget the finish

[Charlie Fox]

The veneer on the bottom is to provide moisture regulating similar to top side. Prevent warping. At the extreme end of caution you would use same species, thickness, and finish. Don’t forget the finish

thanks to you and jim for confirming, the downside is it cuts my production from 9 boards to 4. it would look better as well i agree - but not too concerned with that other than it would give the appearance of solid wood, unless i stupidly turned it and A1 ended up being a light square. lol! or...... alternatively, i could just get some walnut or white oak 4/4, resaw it, plane to the same thickness and it would look far better than plain mdf, just not like a solid chess board. that might cost me $15 per board so certainly worth it to get my desired 9 boards.
and roger on the finish for the bottom, i always finish top and bottom equally. learned that looooooooooooong ago when i made a 8'x3'x6" pecan bar in college. didnt finish the bottom at all. my first project and boy did i learn from that mistake.

[Charlie Fox]

The .25" reference was for the solid stock thick veneer, not the substrate.

On your question about the edge banding, make it look proportional, but I'd likely stay below that 2" you ask about 'cause wood moves and miter the corners for the best look.

how do you think this was done - or at least should have been done?

the border pieces appear glued, as tight as they look. but that would mean (assuming 1/16" and 3/4" substrate) glueing the border to 3/4" of mdf and the 1/16" of walnut/oak thickness. is the bond of border to that 3/4" of mdf strong enough to keep the wood from moving? it almost seems we come back to where we started, the border is going to want to move but the substrate wont let it so something will have to give. yet i have seen several videos where the guys just glue the border straight to solid wood like i did before. of course just making a video doesnt mean your are an expert. plus i have seen plenty of boards for sale and in person where there is a solid wood border clearly attached with adhesive yet i know it is a veneer board over a substrate similar to this.


507288

[George Yetka]

3/4" minimum on the substrate. 1-1/2-2" total thickness I think would look ideal.

The rules about grain direction I dont believe are hard and fast. I think they are repeated and taught because when there is a failure the culprits are usually what cause the rules to be made. Yes you can make a cutting board that is end grain and edge grain but it is more likely to fail. It may take a long time and go out of style before it fails but it is more likely to fail.

[Mike Mason]

how do you think this was done - or at least should have been done?

the border pieces appear glued, as tight as they look. but that would mean (assuming 1/16" and 3/4" substrate) glueing the border to 3/4" of mdf and the 1/16" of walnut/oak thickness. is the bond of border to that 3/4" of mdf strong enough to keep the wood from moving? it almost seems we come back to where we started, the border is going to want to move but the substrate wont let it so something will have to give. yet i have seen several videos where the guys just glue the border straight to solid wood like i did before. of course just making a video doesnt mean your are an expert. plus i have seen plenty of boards for sale and in person where there is a solid wood border clearly attached with adhesive yet i know it is a veneer board over a substrate similar to this.


507288

Again, look at your previous post where your specific questions are already answered.

[Charlie Fox]

Again, look at your previous post where your specific questions are already answered.

man i apologize - i must be the biggest a-hole you guys have ever encountered on here.

but really - please show me the post, anyway you look at it i am still glueing crossgrain OR gluing a wood that will move to a substrate that will not move. how hard is that to understand?

has anyone here actually made a chessboard? i have made dozens of cutting boards - end grain etc -

[John Kananis]

Chess boards are one of the first projects folks get into when starting to veneer. It really builds skill as there's many cuts and pieces and you get a nice keepsake that really doesn't take forever to make. The pic you posted looks like a veneered board, boarder and all.

Edit: Veneering isn't just a way to prevent cracking, it's a responsible way to use material, especially the exotics and burls.

Edit 2: next get yourself a lathe and start making pieces lol

[Michael Burnside]

man i apologize - i must be the biggest a-hole you guys have ever encountered on here.

but really - please show me the post, anyway you look at it i am still glueing crossgrain OR gluing a wood that will move to a substrate that will not move. how hard is that to understand?

has anyone here actually made a chessboard? i have made dozens of cutting boards - end grain etc -

Stop taking it personal. You're not an a-hole and how you read a post might not be exactly how someone intends it to be heard.

If you want to be 100% sure wood movement isn't going to be an issue, then you're going to need to rabbet the miters with a relief that will let the board float inside, gluing only the first few squares. If I were making it for myself or as a gift, I'd just glue the whole damn thing to the substrate but I'd make sure the "board" was pretty thin, miter the edges and add splines to the miters with contrasting wood for strengthening them.

Now, maybe I'll get 10 people telling me gluing the whole thing is a bad idea and they're God's gift to woodworking or have 10000000 years of experience and not doing what they say is a sin. Well, what would a forum be without know-it-alls?

[Charlie Fox]

If you want to be 100% sure wood movement isn't going to be an issue, then you're going to need to rabbet the miters with a relief that will let the board float inside, gluing only the first few squares. If I were making it for myself or as a gift, I'd just glue the whole damn thing to the substrate but I'd make sure the "board" was pretty thin, miter the edges and add splines to the miters with contrasting wood for strengthening them.


been googling and not totally sure on this concept. so if it is floating inside, then it wont have a tight fit like as in glueing, so there would be a gap. all i see is tight fitting frames when i search, totally glued. if you come across an example please share if you dont mind.

as far as "Now, maybe I'll get 10 people telling me gluing the whole thing is a bad idea ?" - pretty sure thats what has been recommended, dont see an issue here

so i glued one up, worked like a charm. i am at 3/32". didnt want to plane any further because a piece or two chipped off on the end, and i am a little worried about how well this will cut on the table saw being so thin. i'll try it out later. at least i have a brand new Forrest on it.

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[Charlie Fox]

ahhhhhh - just found this. easier to visualize how to build the frame now. of course this isnt veneer but i can go with the general concept.

https://www.reddit.com/r/woodworking/comments/k1f9hb/instead_of_a_veneered_chessboard_i_decided_to_try/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

[Charlie Fox]

and another question at the risk of it being really dumb - woulkd it make sense to put 2 or 3 coats of poly on the bottom of the veneer before glueing to the substrate? that way the veneer would have equal finish as well. then of course i would apply an equal amount on the top when built as well as the bottom of the substrate.

my local hardwood dealer has 1" mdf. overkill? or go for it?

[John Kananis]

No, definitelydon't do that.

and another question at the risk of it being really dumb - woulkd it make sense to put 2 or 3 coats of poly on the bottom of the veneer before glueing to the substrate? that way the veneer would have equal finish as well. then of course i would apply an equal amount on the top when built as well as the bottom of the substrate.

my local hardwood dealer has 1" mdf. overkill? or go for it?

[Michael Burnside]

and another question at the risk of it being really dumb - woulkd it make sense to put 2 or 3 coats of poly on the bottom of the veneer before glueing to the substrate? that way the veneer would have equal finish as well. then of course i would apply an equal amount on the top when built as well as the bottom of the substrate.

my local hardwood dealer has 1" mdf. overkill? or go for it?

Don't poly before glue, bad idea as the glue may not even adhere adequately depending on what type of glue you use...or the poly will chemically react to the glue and who knows what happens.

As far as 1" MDF, whatever style you want to go for, do it. No wrong answer there. It might look good.

As far as your link you posted, one thing to note, see how that person splined the miters? Anything that is going to be "handled" like a chess board, I'd do this to keep them strong.

[Charlie Fox]

Don't poly before glue, bad idea as the glue may not even adhere adequately depending on what type of glue you use...or the poly will chemically react to the glue and who knows what happens.

As far as 1" MDF, whatever style you want to go for, do it. No wrong answer there. It might look good.

As far as your link you posted, one thing to note, see how that person splined the miters? Anything that is going to be "handled" like a chess board, I'd do this to keep them strong.

do you have a preference for doing the splines? these are called key splines i think, any recommendation for buying or making a good jig for this?

kinda perplexing, here's two guys gluing the frames on - one is solid wood, the other veneer, but his veneer and substrate are almost the same thickness, 3/8 or so. i gotta stop watching videos and confusing myself....lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3EVqOPJ0UM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfaBwiwDqOU

[Michael Burnside]

I have the Woodpeckers spline jig for a table saw, but I've also made my own before I got it. Both are viable options, but I prefer the aluminum Woodpeckers version. There may be others out there.

[George Yetka]

Don't poly before glue, bad idea as the glue may not even adhere adequately depending on what type of glue you use...or the poly will chemically react to the glue and who knows what happens.

As far as 1" MDF, whatever style you want to go for, do it. No wrong answer there. It might look good.

As far as your link you posted, one thing to note, see how that person splined the miters? Anything that is going to be "handled" like a chess board, I'd do this to keep them strong.

I think he meant the side that wouldnt be glued to the veneer. I still wouldnt do that though you dont want to risk cupping your substrate before you begin.