Exterior door

[jack dempsey]

Hello, I am looking for some advice on building an exterior door. The door will be for a small post and beam cabin my son is building in Maine. My plan is to use quarter sawn white oak. The final thickness will be 2". I am planning a Shaker Style door. I have looked for 10/4" white oak. As mentioned the final thickness will be 2" after milling. I have not had a lot of luck locating 10/4 stock and when I have it is relatively expensive. My question is, would it be a reasonable approach to laminate 5/4" stock for the rails, stiles and center mullion. The stiles will be 4" to 5" in width with the bottom rail being 8 1/2" in width. If this is a reasonable approach any suggestion on an appropriate glue. The joinery will be mortise and tenon for the rails and stiles and the center mullion. I have made an interior door before but this will be a first exterior door for me. Any advice is welcome. Thanks

[Mel Fulks]

White oak has nature made “over kill” strength.” I would make the door I and 1/4 ,or 1 and 3/ 8ths . Don’t forget shutters for the
windows.

[Jim Becker]

I would not try and source 10/4 material; not only will it be harder to find, it's going to be darn expensive and there some level of risk that it may not be as dry internally as you might prefer. (that's not a given. it's just a risk) Personally, I'd do a three lay lamination as that will allow you to construct very stout mortise and tenons without having to cut the mortises after the fact. (I like this method for interior doors, too) You should end up with a very stable and strong door using this technique.

[John TenEyck]

I'd look for 8/4 and make the door 1-3/4" like standard exterior house doors. If it just has to be 2" then multi-layer, as Jim recommended, 2 layer, 3 layer, both are fine. I'd make the stiles twice the width of your lockset setback. As for glue, I use epoxy because it stands up to anything and is forgiving if your joinery isn't perfect, and it has a long working time to avoid stress during glue-up. If you don't like epoxy, then I'd use Gorilla Glue or some other PU glue because it's waterproof and retains strength at high temperature (direct sun).

John

[jack dempsey]

John,
Any suggestions on an epoxy for this job? Having never used epoxy there will be a learning curve.

[John TenEyck]

West Systems 105 or System Three T-88 would be my choice. Besides being weatherproof, strong, and gap filling if you add filler, epoxy with the right catalyst has a really long working time which makes assembly possible w/o heartburn. It behaves like a lubricant, too, as you slide the pieces together.

You can clean up squeeze out and runs with lacquer thinner or, hard to believe but true, white vinegar. White vinegar makes it possible to use epoxy to assemble prefinished parts, when that's a preferred option with some projects.

If you have the larger Domino, I would strongly consider that option instead of traditional M&T's. Far easier and more than strong enough for the application.

If you are using traditional solid wood panels and have to glue up stock to get them wide enough, I advise not to use TB III as it does not behave well if the door is exposed to direct sunlight. The high temperature performance of TB III is terrible which can easily cause the glue line to fail. TB II would work fine, as would Gorilla Glue or of course epoxy. My preference is not to set the panels in a dado in the stiles/rails, because if it should crack you're faced with a big job to replace it. I set them in a rabbett and capture them with molding which is easily removed should the panel need replacement. Q-Lon weatherstripping is a good choice for sealing the door in the frame (jamb) and easy to install.

Have fun. Doors are such a great project. Lots of details, pretty small tolerances for such a large object, but a lot of satisfaction when it fits right and the design compliments the structure.

John

[Cameron Wood]

I recently put a lockset on a 2 1/4" thick door. What a PIA!

No one has parts to fit, including the old school door shop that has everything. Finally ordered a lockset from Build.com that they said would fit,

but still had to have a follow up order to make it work.

The door was also big and heavy- easily 125lbs.

[jack dempsey]

John,
Thank you for all of the information. I have never used epoxy so I am a little bit apprehensive. I will research West Systems. I do not have a Domino so I believe I will go with standard M&T. Trying to get my head around the mortises as they will be deeper than I can accomplish with a router. Should be a fun and challenging project. This is for my sons post and beam cabin that he and his girlfriend are building in Maine. He has cut the tress on his own property and he and has hand hewn the timbers using a broadax and slicks. Quite an accomplishment. He has asked me to make the door for the cabin and I want it to be a wonderful addition to their home.

[jack dempsey]

John, Thanks for the information. This is the first exterior door for me. I am building it for my son for his home in Maine. I am still trying to work out the details to make it weather tight and hold up to Maine winters and change os seasons. I need to further research locusts. Thanks for the advice, I will check out Build.com.

[Zachary Hoyt]

RAKA epoxy is a cheaper alternative to West System. I used it to build a couple of canoes and was very pleased with it.

[Joe Calhoon]

I recently put a lockset on a 2 1/4" thick door. What a PIA!

No one has parts to fit, including the old school door shop that has everything. Finally ordered a lockset from Build.com that they said would fit,

but still had to have a follow up order to make it work.

The door was also big and heavy- easily 125lbs.

Emtek is mid range hardware and will prep both tubular and full mortise locks for doors up to 3” thick. You have to specify at time of order though. Baldwin, Rocky Mountain and other high end suppliers also do this. You just need to specify. Low end lock sets from the home centers are tough to make work on thicker doors.

[Joe Calhoon]

I'd look for 8/4 and make the door 1-3/4" like standard exterior house doors. If it just has to be 2" then multi-layer, as Jim recommended, 2 layer, 3 layer, both are fine. I'd make the stiles twice the width of your lockset setback. As for glue, I use epoxy because it stands up to anything and is forgiving if your joinery isn't perfect, and it has a long working time to avoid stress during glue-up. If you don't like epoxy, then I'd use Gorilla Glue or some other PU glue because it's waterproof and retains strength at high temperature (direct sun).
John

I highly recommend you don’t use Gorilla glue. We do wide belt sanding for other shops and when I see panels coming in glued with Gorilla they are usually failing coming out of the sander. Long time user of TB3 here and never any problems. It is a very inconsistent product for viscosity though. I always stir up the pails before using and any panel joints are reinforced when used on exterior.

[Jim Becker]

I'd opt for T-88 epoxy or similar for this application as they are structural epoxies, designed for this kind of work.

[jack dempsey]

Jim,
Thanks for the information. As I said earlier I have never used epoxy with the exception of the small tubes available at Lowe's, Home Depot etc. I am little concerned but will give it a shot. I think I may go the laminate route it may make the mortises easier since I may actually cut the mortise slot prior to glue up. I was thinking mortises 3" deep and difficult to do with a router setup. I have never cut mortises this big by hand and if I can measure and align properly I think I can allow for the mortises prior to glue up. Do you recommend a respirator while using epoxy.

[Cameron Wood]

Emtek is mid range hardware and will prep both tubular and full mortise locks for doors up to 3” thick. You have to specify at time of order though. Baldwin, Rocky Mountain and other high end suppliers also do this. You just need to specify. Low end lock sets from the home centers are tough to make work on thicker doors.


Yes, this was an on-the-fly project, practically an emergency, and I started out trying to use something from the various ones on hand.

[Jim Becker]

Jim,
Thanks for the information. As I said earlier I have never used epoxy with the exception of the small tubes available at Lowe's, Home Depot etc. I am little concerned but will give it a shot. I think I may go the laminate route it may make the mortises easier since I may actually cut the mortise slot prior to glue up. I was thinking mortises 3" deep and difficult to do with a router setup. I have never cut mortises this big by hand and if I can measure and align properly I think I can allow for the mortises prior to glue up. Do you recommend a respirator while using epoxy.

It's handy to have a little of the structural epoxy around, not just for situations like your exterior door, but it's great for complex assemblies that you need a very long open time to get things together and properly clamped. PVA is great, but even the longest open time versions start to get beyond "the point" too quickly when you only have two hands to do eight hands worth of work. It doesn't "go bad", per se, very quickly being a two-part product and I just keep it in my "special adhesives" drawer. Mixing is generally one to one so it's simple to use, too.

[Richard Coers]

1 3/4" thick exterior door is quite common in the commercial industry. While oak is incredibly hard to dry and if you could find it, that kiln operator better be a genius. Highly likely to have a wetter core and that means movement as it dries after machining. More of a worry to me is setting panels in dadoes. With a direct driving rain, the water has a good chance of wicking between the panel and rails. White oak can handle that pretty well, but a clear finish can not. The water will wick into the end grain, or just under the finish and it will soon wick up. I like to angle drill a couple 1/8" holes in the rails to let any moisture run out. I'd also use ball bearing hinges that will last a lifetime on the heavy door.

[David Zaret]

as others stated, i would stick to standard dimensions - especially thickness. build a 1 3/4" thick door so your hardware works. i've done a lot of doors, and i certainly wouldn't use solid lumber - at least do a glue-up, ideally three layers so you get a couple of glue lines. personally, i use a stable core material such as timber strand and veneer it with shop-sawn veneer. i've never seen any door built this way move a millimeter. for glue, my go-to is urea resin, you get long open time and exceptional strength and rigidity when cured.

[John TenEyck]

I highly recommend you don’t use Gorilla glue. We do wide belt sanding for other shops and when I see panels coming in glued with Gorilla they are usually failing coming out of the sander. Long time user of TB3 here and never any problems. It is a very inconsistent product for viscosity though. I always stir up the pails before using and any panel joints are reinforced when used on exterior.

Why do you suppose that is, Joe? Maybe the people who made the panels didn't wet one side of the joint, and where you are with such low RH that's probably a must. I've used GG for all kinds of applications, many exterior ones, and it has held up very well.

John

[John TenEyck]

Jim,
Thanks for the information. As I said earlier I have never used epoxy with the exception of the small tubes available at Lowe's, Home Depot etc. I am little concerned but will give it a shot. I think I may go the laminate route it may make the mortises easier since I may actually cut the mortise slot prior to glue up. I was thinking mortises 3" deep and difficult to do with a router setup. I have never cut mortises this big by hand and if I can measure and align properly I think I can allow for the mortises prior to glue up. Do you recommend a respirator while using epoxy.

I'm pretty sure Dominos don't go 3" deep and they work fine for exterior doors. But if you want 3" deep mortises you can cut them with a plunge router. Use a shorter bit to cut as deep as it goes, and then switch to a longer bit for the remainder.

I've never felt a need for a respirator with T-88, the one I've used to make exterior doors. Check the SDS to decide for yourself.

John

[Jim Becker]

Max depth for the DF700 is 70mm which is just under 3"...more than adequate for doors, especially when using multiple 14mm Dominos per joint as one should for the application.

[jack dempsey]

I decided to go the Epoxy route. After discussing with a customer service person at Jamestown Distributors I am awaiting the UPS delivery of Total Boat FlexEpox. For those experienced with this method can you give advice as to proper clamping. My plan is to laminate two thicknesses of 4/4". They should be easy to clamp as they are 4 1/2" wide. I want to be sure that I do not over tighten the clamps and starve the joint. Any practical suggestions. Am I over thinking this? I have done a fair amount of woodworking but an exterior door is something different. At this point I believe I may be over thinking this. Thanks for your help and advice.

[Jim Becker]

I really like Total Boat resin products, Jack. I will likely be increasing my "collection" of their products.

[Kevin Jenness]

Don't worry about over-tightening the clamps as long as you have a rough gluing surface, either sawn or abraded with 80#. A rough surface is needed for good adhesion. Mill your staves flat and use flat cauls set up on a flat surface to spread out the clamping pressure. You can use cellulose filler if concerned about filling gaps, but in this case there should be none. I rarely use filler.

I like 2 1/4" thick doors as it allows for some insulation between the panels, but I have 1 3/4" doors on my own house. Properly dried, carefully selected solid wood is fine for doors but as others have said well dried thick white oak is hard to find. Let your stave sit for a day after milling in case they twist, and oppose any bowed pieces. 2 1/4" is easy to achieve with 3 layers of 4/4. You may struggle to get 1 3/4" with two 4/4 layers.

Ideally the doors will be protected from the weather. If not you might want to consider vertical planks laminated to a central ladder core with insulation in the ladder voids for better moisture resistance.

[John TenEyck]

Don't worry about over-tightening the clamps as long as you have a rough gluing surface, either sawn or abraded with 80#. A rough surface is needed for good adhesion. Mill your staves flat and use flat cauls set up on a flat surface to spread out the clamping pressure. You can use cellulose filler if concerned about filling gaps, but in this case there should be none. I rarely use filler.

I like 2 1/4" thick doors as it allows for some insulation between the panels, but I have 1 3/4" doors on my own house. 2 1/4" is easy to achieve with 3 layers of 4/4. You may struggle to get 1 3/4" with two 4/4 layers.

Ideally the doors will be protected from the weather. If not you might want to consider vertical planks laminated to a central ladder core with insulation in the ladder voids for better moisture resistance.


Kevin, could you please explain more about the vertical planks laminated to a ladder core? I have used a ladder core with HDF sheets for a couple of painted interior doors, so I know how it works. But I'm curious about how you attach solid wood planks to it and avoid expansion/contraction issues. Are you using a tongue and groove? A curious mind would like to know. Thanks.

John

[Kevin Jenness]

T&G planks. Best to leave expansion gaps between them and glue only half their width. I have made several in Spanish Cedar that have held up well in exposed situations.

[John TenEyck]

Thanks Kevin. That makes sense, both the wood and the technique. So the outside boards get glued to the outside stiles of the ladder core, and the others in the middle? Or you nail the tongues and glue that half?

John

[Kevin Jenness]

Well, it's probably best to glue down one edge of each plank and over to the middle. Nailing the tongues wouldn't be a bad idea either. I have to admit that the first one I did I laid up all the planks glued full width in a vacuum bag with epoxy. Of course the glue wicked up through the joints and I had to clean it out with an azebiki. I wouldn't recommend that, but the door has stayed flat for over 10 years with no surface checking. That's probably due to using Spanish Cedar, a pretty stable and forgiving species.

I had a disaster once when I made a garage door with t&g planks glued full width to one side of an x-braced frame. Despite the fact that I left spaces between the planks they swelled when exposed to the weather and curled the door badly enough that it had to be remade. One of those lessons one doesn't soon forget.

Getting pressure on the planks in the center of this style of door requires the use of cambered cauls or a press of some sort so it is a bit more time consuming to glue up than a paneled door, but it does avoid the problem of water getting into horizontal panel grooves.

Here's one ready for installation.

507587

[John TenEyck]

Thanks for the added info. Kevin. Much appreciated.

John

[jack dempsey]

Kevin,
Thanks for the information and your helpful insights. As I mentioned I will use epoxy for the first time. I understand the logic concerning a rough or textured surface for the adhesion of the epoxy for the laminated pieces. I am leaning toward using a router to get the first 2 1/2" inches of material out for the mortise then finishing with a drill to get an additional 1/2". Do you believe the walls in the mortise will be sufficiently rough to allow good adhesion for the epoxy? Thanks, Jack

[Kevin Jenness]

Kevin,
Thanks for the information and your helpful insights. As I mentioned I will use epoxy for the first time. I understand the logic concerning a rough or textured surface for the adhesion of the epoxy for the laminated pieces. I am leaning toward using a router to get the first 2 1/2" inches of material out for the mortise then finishing with a drill to get an additional 1/2". Do you believe the walls in the mortise will be sufficiently rough to allow good adhesion for the epoxy? Thanks, Jack

I have made scores of doors joined with 2 1/2" deep routed mortises (I use a slot mortiser and spline tenons) and epoxy and am not aware of any failures. I do sand the splines. If you have a very smooth finish on your mortise walls it wouldn't hurt to touch them up with a rasp or 80# sanding block. If you want a definitive answer, make a test mortise, slice off one cheek and glue it to a test tenon, then try to break the cured joint apart.

I learned about using epoxy from the 1985 edition of Gougeon Brothers on Boat Construction which makes no mention of abrading wood surfaces for adhesion. After a few failures I revisited their website guidelines in the early 2000s which do advise rough bonding surfaces. I have seen successful bonding of planed surfaces on low density woods like pine, but my come to Jesus moment happened when I glued up some walnut leg blanks. Just for grins I hammered a chisel into the cured glueline to find that the two halves popped apart quite easily, with epoxy in the joint but sheared cleanly off the machine planed mating surfaces. That got my attention and I have been using rough surfaces for epoxy bonds since then.

I recommend you buy a copy of David Sochar's Small Shop Production of Custom Wood Doors.

[Jim Becker]

Kevin,
Thanks for the information and your helpful insights. As I mentioned I will use epoxy for the first time. I understand the logic concerning a rough or textured surface for the adhesion of the epoxy for the laminated pieces. I am leaning toward using a router to get the first 2 1/2" inches of material out for the mortise then finishing with a drill to get an additional 1/2". Do you believe the walls in the mortise will be sufficiently rough to allow good adhesion for the epoxy? Thanks, Jack
No worries at all, IMHO. Even "smooth" wood is rough compared to slick surfaces that need abrasion. 'Nature of the material.

[andrew whicker]

Epoxy is about the lowest stress glue up you'll experience.

I use epoxy when I have complicated glue ups because the set time is so long regardless of its other properties.

[John TenEyck]

Kevin,
Thanks for the information and your helpful insights. As I mentioned I will use epoxy for the first time. I understand the logic concerning a rough or textured surface for the adhesion of the epoxy for the laminated pieces. I am leaning toward using a router to get the first 2 1/2" inches of material out for the mortise then finishing with a drill to get an additional 1/2". Do you believe the walls in the mortise will be sufficiently rough to allow good adhesion for the epoxy? Thanks, Jack

You might consider using a roughing endmill.

John

[Tom Bender]

Take some worry out of the lockset install by doing a practice install in a mockup about 6" long.

Presumably the cabin will have another door. See if you can get them 'keyed alike'.

[Tom Bender]

We all love wooden doors but they can be a world of trouble when exposed to the weather.

David Sochar's book would be a good investment.

[Mike Goetzke]

Years ago I took on the challenge to build an entrance door. Luckily I found a professional door builder on this forum who mentored me. I'm forever thankful to "Joe Grout" - ha, if that is his real name.

I was like you wanting to get nice thick white oak for the frame but Joe insisted I use LVL (laminated veneer lumber) as the core and use white oak veneer on top (1/8"). The door was big and heavy but not super difficult to build. But, the frame/jam pieces had some cuts I would never do again on the TS. WOW - just looked it's been up for 17 years now!

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?128385-Entrance-Door&highlight=entrance