Which phase converter will I need to pick up, and where is the best place?

[Chris Pasko]

Hello, I will be setting my shop up soon and will need a Kay
Industries RPC. I was hoping you guys can point me in the right
direction as electricity isn't my field at all =). Here is the list
of machines:

Kappa 40
Dual 51
Profil 45
RL 160

I will most likely down the road add a large wide belt, and probably
the Felder FS900 sander. I will also soon be adding a Rong-Fu 1.5hp
3ph (most likely) mill.

Also, my RPC will be located in a small addition on the side of my
shop and my panel for the 3ph is in the front. What size wire
should I run to connect them? Its about 50' from where the RPC will
sit and the panel.

Also, is anyone familiar with a Phase Perfect converter? Which one I would maybe need? =P

Thanks Ahead,

-Chris

[Jay T. Marlin]

Hey Chris,

That's quite a list of machines you got there. I'm not sure if you've talked to the boys at Felder yet, but since you plan on purchasing upwards of 75 grand worth of machinery from them, don't be afraid to ask them for recommendations. Is there any particular reason why you singled out Kay Industries? Whichever brand you get, a 7.5hp converter will work fine with the machines you listed. Getting a bigger one like a 10hp wouldn't be bad idea if you plan on getting a 3-phase compressor in the future.

As for wiring, 8/3 or 6/3 from panel to the RPC. 10/4 from the RPC to the machines.

BTW, the FS900 is not a wide belt sander. It's an edge sander. If you get a widebelt, plan on getting a 20-30hp converter.

[Chris Pasko]

Thanks Jay. I have discussed it with my Felder rep who also said the 7.5 will be sufficient. I just wanted to double check as I know some ppl on here are much more knowledgeable about electric. I single Kay Industries out because that is usually the name I hear thrown around in Felder circles =). I just recently heard of Phase Perfect which I believe is a digital phase converter. I need to look more into this.

Thanks for the info on the wiring! Thats a big help.

Yes, I know the fs900 is an edge sander, I am sure it will be three phase though which is why I threw it in the mix. It will probably be added to the collection somewhere in the near future. As for the widebelt, I think for now I will not even worry about that and maybe get a second phase converter in the future for it when it is purchased. That will alleviate a lot of headache now.

[Ian Barley]

Chris

Possibly a dumb question but you have checked out the cost of getting "native" three phase supply haven't you? I recently moved into a shop with true 3ph and have to say that all of my 3ph machines are running much better than they ever did through a converter.

[Chris Giles]

Ian is right, Chris. I use a Kay industries 7.5HP rotary converter and it works very well. The HP rating meets all my needs for now, but just barely. I really can't see putting a wide belt on it, so that limitation is always there. Direct wired three phase is much snappier if you can get it. In Chicago, we had it in the building and it was great. No turning the RPC on and off all day or having to listen to its high-pitched whine. But here in New Hampshire direct-wired three phase is a little harder to come by, so I use the RPC. Mine is a very reliable unit and I would highly recommend it, although I would keep it in another room or closet if possible because I don't like the sound it makes. I will need a wide belt pretty soon, so I may have to consider a 20 to 30 horse RPC at that time.

[Jay T. Marlin]

Direct 3 phase is sweet but it can be ridiculously expensive. I checked to see how much it would cost to get it in my home shop and found out that it would be cheaper to get a 40kw natural gas generator!

[Rick Lizek]

There's at least a dozen companies making phase converters not to mention VFD's. A rotary or a phase perfect would be the one for multiple machines. I would contact the converter companies for their recommendation. Another oprion is to check with your local motor repair company as they deal with this situation often I would think. At least mine does and can help with the probematic situation that can pop up. I've been dealing with phase conversion for 20 years and there is always something new, especially with older machines and controls. Why are you asking for recommendations from a forum with unknown people giving advice? Stick with local services and reputable dealers and you will be better off. I've had good service from www.phase-a-matic.com (http://www.phase-a-matic.com) but like I said there's at least a dozen. Who does your local electric motor company deal with? It's also handy to have a good electrician to help out. Someone who does commercial work on controls and such. Lots of electricians don't even have a clue about converters and I've talked to some who didn't think it was possible. You also have to wire the shop as if it were single phase in wire size. I wouldn't go by the recommendations of Felder, go by the folks who know the converters. Probably a kickback to recommend Kay from the Felder folks. Not uncommon.

Using the right sources takes care of any issues that come up and puts the burden on them to make it right. Just make sure you have all your specs on the motors listed and available incoming power as well as future possilbe needs and you will be fine with the right professional at your service. Clearly you will need a good industrial electrician to oversee the work.

Haven't had any experience from Phase Perfect but it appears to be the newest in the converter technology. www.phaseperfect.com (http://www.phaseperfect.com) I've heard about them a few years ago and it looks interesting.

[tod evans]

[quote=Rick Lizek]. Why are you asking for recommendations from a forum with unknown people giving advice? Stick with local services and reputable dealers and you will be better off.
Using the right sources takes care of any issues that come up and puts the burden on them to make it right. .[/quote

chris, this is sage advice! .02 tod

[Jeff Singleton]

I have a 20 hp phase converter made by Superior Phase converters. It has all Square D parts and a very nice box. You can order just the box and supply your own 3 phase, 1725 rpm, 220v motor or they can send you one. I looked into buying a small 10 hp for my garage last year and they quoted me around $190 for the box with everything except the motor and wire to the motor. All wiring instructions are on the back of the boxes cover along with contact phone numbers for Superior. There are just to many used 3 phase motor out there to buy a new one and you can pick one up for under $125 at any surplus machinery place. I found out that most if not all motor repair facilities around Akron have no experience with phase converters and can't help. They just don't have a call for it because most deal with industies that have 3 phase service. You will also want to check with the machine manufactures and see if their machines can run on a phase converter. One of my friend bought a CNC and found out that the manufacture did not want it to run off a converter, only true 3 phase power would work. Everything worked out for him in the end, enough said there. Good luck.

Jeff Singleton

[Rob Russell]

Rick,

I have to disagree with a couple of your points. I will say - upfront - that I am a Felder owner. I also am one of those anal-retentive types who overanalyzes things. I'm also (still) building my own RPC for my machinery.


There's at least a dozen companies making phase converters not to mention VFD's. A rotary or a phase perfect would be the one for multiple machines. I would contact the converter companies for their recommendation.

Unfortunately, there are good and bad RPC (rotary phase convertor) manufacturers. Unless one has direct experience with the company, it's hard for a new RPC buyer to be able to tell who is a good vs. bad company. You can get RPCs on eBay, some of them are supposed to be pretty decent, but I've also seen a number of posts on another forum that deals specifically with RPCs and VFDs about some eBay RPC horror stories. That forum is The Practical Machinist (http://www.practicalmachinist.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=forum;f=3) and is a wealth of info for the new 3-phase user.



Another oprion is to check with your local motor repair company as they deal with this situation often I would think. At least mine does and can help with the probematic situation that can pop up. I've been dealing with phase conversion for 20 years and there is always something new, especially with older machines and controls. Why are you asking for recommendations from a forum with unknown people giving advice? Stick with local services and reputable dealers and you will be better off.


You might be surprised at:
how few motor repair shop there really are anymore, and
how few of them actually deal much with rotary phase convertors




Why are you asking for recommendations from a forum with unknown people giving advice? Stick with local services and reputable dealers and you will be better off.


I'm not trying to be snide or cute with this, but what makes your advice more valuable than the manufacturers? What makes the advice from some local shop who likely has zero experience with Felder (actually Format-4) machinery more valuable than the advice from Felder or Kay? For that matter, what makes my advice any better than what would come from Felder or Kay?




I've had good service from www.phase-a-matic.com (http://www.phase-a-matic.com) but like I said there's at least a dozen. Who does your local electric motor company deal with?


Phase-a-Matic is one of the well-established RPC manufacturers and does have a good reputation. However, Kay and Ronk are the same - both have been around for a long time and have good reputations.



It's also handy to have a good electrician to help out. Someone who does commercial work on controls and such. Lots of electricians don't even have a clue about converters and I've talked to some who didn't think it was possible. You also have to wire the shop as if it were single phase in wire size.


If you're not informed enough to do the wiring yourself, then I mostly agree with this statement. There is no need, however, to wire all of the 3-phase circuits with conductors sized for single phase loads. For example, a 30-amp circuit run on #10 for a 7.5HP machine is perfectly acceptable and meets the NEC. Why upsize the wire to #8 when there is no need to? That would be a waste of money and make the wiring job harder because the wire is larger, stiffer and harder to work with.

One thing you didn't say is that - IMO - the only way to wire a shop like this is to feed a standard 3-phase circuit breaker panel from the RPC. This is as opposed to wiring everything from the output terminals in the RPC control panel. That way each machine can have a dedicated circuit with properly sized breaker.



I wouldn't go by the recommendations of Felder, go by the folks who know the converters. Probably a kickback to recommend Kay from the Felder folks. Not uncommon.


I really disagree with this one. I doubt it happens, but so what if Felder does get something back from Kay? There is a good working relationship between the companies, Kay is familiar with the Felder equipment and knows which machines have special requirements for the CNC circuitry.

I'd say it's a strong advantage have the RPC manufacturer be familiar with the load equipment than it be someone spec'ing a RPC simply based on the machinery HP ratings.



Using the right sources takes care of any issues that come up and puts the burden on them to make it right. Just make sure you have all your specs on the motors listed and available incoming power as well as future possilbe needs and you will be fine with the right professional at your service.


This is exactly why you might want to give extra consideration to the Kay - because of the potential for problems. If something happens and there is an electrical mismatch between the RPC and machine, I'd say that you're in a much better position to have dealt with the load machinery manufacturer's suggested RPC provider.



Haven't had any experience from Phase Perfect but it appears to be the newest in the converter technology. www.phaseperfect.com (http://www.phaseperfect.com) I've heard about them a few years ago and it looks interesting.

According the the folks on Practical Machinist, the Phase Perfect is a really sweet source of 3-phase. It is expensive. You're talking about $4K for their 20HP unit, which is what Chris would need to run if he upgraded any of the motors to 7.5HP (the RL160 is 5.5HP). The 10HP unit is still close to $3K.

The nice thing about the PP is that the power is clean, balanced and the PP is quiet and almost 100% efficient.

In retrospect, if I hadn't decided to go the cheap route and build a RPC, I would probably have bought a PP over a RPC. Building my own RPC is why I'm still getting my shop setup - I've overengineered it and other priorities have continually delayed my project.

Rob

[Rick Lizek]

You are correct on many motor shops not knowing anything about phase converters as well as electrcians. I'm fortunate to have several knowledgable shops in my area. I've done a lot of helping folks put converters in shops and have some seasoned experts to work with. My advice is a generalized thing and not meant to be the bible and last word but it's gotten me though lots of situations. Everyone will have some different situations but I still would use professionals. This is how we did it before the web.
I'm not saying Phase-a-matic is any better than Ronk or Kay. They and others have been around a long time as you said. I've just used PAM more and know their service is good. I'm sure the others are just as good. I would say you are more liable to have issues with older machines than new machines in general with phase converters. At least that's been the case in my experience.

[Chris Pasko]

Hello guys. Thank you all for your input.

My machines all have 7.5hp 3ph motors on them.

I cannot get 3ph locally. I am lucky to get internet here in the sticks heh.

Unfortunately there are no motor shops around here that I can find. The reason I ask here is because there is a lot of knowledgeable ppl that are very familiar with both electric and felder machines (or ww machines in general). I am also talking to felder.

Per Mr. Russels last comments I think I will get the Phase Perfect machine. I like that fact that it wont have a loud whine and it seems like the better route to go. I will have it in a separate addition to the shop, so it would be too bad either way I go. I may pick up the 20hp unit. Does this have the same limitation as the RPC's where it will have trouble starting a small 1.5hp 3 ph motor on a mill? I assume the 20hp unit would be more then enough to power my machines, a 3ph edge sander in the future and a wide belt, or am I incorrect? Of course I will talk to the company before I finally order it hopefully today or tomorrow if I can get my act together.

Thanks for all the input thus far guys!

[Jim Davenport]

I'd like to add a little input here. I built a five HP "RPC" for my shop. I've also built several for commercial use for sewage lift stations. I've found that the biggest problems they have is balancing the three phases. I've done lift stations with two old pumps, and I had to balance the pumps with different value capacitors wired between phases for each pump.
I would suggest you look at the "new VFD's" They have several advantages over RPC's in that they allow "soft starts" which reduces inrush current draws (house lights dimming). They also have voltage, and loss of phase monitoring. And are more efficient with a "unity power factor", which allows your motors to run cooler, and last longer.
Here's pictures of my RPC in the "Magic Garage" I added run caps to balance the motor on my old South bend lathe. I also added a Phase monitor that will shut everything off if it senses low voltage, or a phase inbalance.

[Paul B. Cresti]

Chris,
Hope you get your fleet up and running soon!

Just for comparison sake I have all 3ph MM machines with the following specs running off of a Kay industries 3MAr (?): 9hp saw, 6.6hp shaper, 6.6 hp j/p, 5.5hp RL, 7.5hp bandsaw (soon). They 3MAr is a 15hp rpc with a built in voltage regulator and disconnect switch. I bought it through MM but since my first machine was only a 6.6hp and the rpc was so large Kay informed me I should go with a voltage regulator on it, so I listened to them. I have not had any problems except for having to adjust one overload settings on the j/p. I have all machines hard wired to a power distribution block that is connected to the rpc. This was suggested by Kay.

[Rob Russell]

...I think I will get the Phase Perfect machine. I like that fact that it wont have a loud whine and it seems like the better route to go. I will have it in a separate addition to the shop, so it would be too bad either way I go. I may pick up the 20hp unit. Does this have the same limitation as the RPC's where it will have trouble starting a small 1.5hp 3 ph motor on a mill? I assume the 20hp unit would be more then enough to power my machines, a 3ph edge sander in the future and a wide belt, or am I incorrect? Of course I will talk to the company before I finally order it hopefully today or tomorrow if I can get my act together.


Chris,

I have never heard a PP, but I remember reading on the Practical Machinist forum that it did have a high-pitched electrical hum. Supposedly PP updated the design to reduce/eliminate that. Sounds like a good question for them.

You can definitely run small motors off of the PP. That's one of the really nice things about it. RPC's are typically designed with min and max motor sizes. If you want a RPC that has the capacity to start and run a 7.5HP motor and that is balanced for that size motor, it will be running unbalanced for smaller motors. The PP isn't subject to that. Frankly, because I have the need to run small motors in addition to the 7.5+5.5 HP motors of my machines, the RPC I'm in the middle of assembling is a "dual-idler" RPC. It has 5 and 7.5 HP motors, so I can run just the 5 HP idler for small machines like a 3-phase drill press or run both idlers (and the extra run/balancing caps) when I'm using the Felder machinery.

Rob

[Chris Pasko]

Hey Jim, by "new" vfd's I assume you are referring to converters like the Phase Perfect, am I correct? It says that it puts out perfectly balanced 3ph with no harmonic distortion and 95-98% efficiency.

Hey Paul! How have you been? The fleet will be here soon =), but I don't know about running hehe. I have had the profil45 sitting int he shop for a few months now. I have been super tight on time and am just now able to start finishing framing/wiring/insulating the shop. I am on vacation for two weeks then upon return must make arrangements to run up Delaware and pick my tools up (should be fun =)). Hopefully withing another two months the shop will be operational. Keeping my fingers crossed anyway.

I have always heard good things about Kay and was considering going with the unit you have now, but think I will now go with the PP for some advantages it seems to have. Though I am still researching this. I just want to make sure I have the juice and don't need to add a second in the future.

Rob:
Ya, this is the first I have heard of them as well, but like you I have read good things about them on the practical machinist site. The hum really isn't a deal killer even if it is there, it will only be in the shop for a short while until I can get to putting my small addition on for the dc, compressor, converter, and furnace. Hopefully I wont hear it at all in there. I will ask them when I call this afternoon however.

So if I am understanding you right it will be able to start the 1.5hp 3ph motor at any time with out anything special needed or special procedure? Thats exactly what I am looking for and hope I am correct in my iteration of what you are saying. The soft start is attractive as well, though I will be running a dedicated 200 amp service to my shop int he spring when the ground softens up a bit.

Thanks again, I am getting a much better perspective then what I previously had on this 3ph stuff =).

[Rob Russell]

Chris,

The PP doesn't provide "soft-start" capability, it just gives you nice balanced 3-phase power. If you have the 20HP PP, you could run anything from a 1/2 horse motor on a radial drill press up to your Format-4 machines.

FYI, VFD's are not a practical solution for you. VFDs need to directly control the motor. All your Format-4 machines have control panels that do that. You can't just use the VFD as an electronic phase convertor and use the actual machine controls for start, stop, etc.

Rob

[Ian Barley]

...Why are you asking for recommendations from a forum with unknown people giving advice?....

Rick - I would guess that possibly for the same reason that many of us seek information here - because the experience of peers giving honest opinions is a useful adjunct to the information provided by, necessarily, partisan suppliers, manufacturers etc.

[Jim Davenport]

Chris,

The PP doesn't provide "soft-start" capability, it just gives you nice balanced 3-phase power. If you have the 20HP PP, you could run anything from a 1/2 horse motor on a radial drill press up to your Format-4 machines.

FYI, VFD's are not a practical solution for you. VFDs need to directly control the motor. All your Format-4 machines have control panels that do that. You can't just use the VFD as an electronic phase convertor and use the actual machine controls for start, stop, etc.

Rob
I beg to differ. You can run seperate motors off a Vfd, just not at the same time. I installed a pair of 200 hp "High service pumps" running off of a single VFD. The customer didn't want to spend a lot of money? I set the controls up so that they would alternate.
But I would price Vfd's for your applications.
Small vfd's would be cost equivelient to a large single RPC. Also if you run different size motors off of an RPC, there's a good chance that you will have balance, and power factor problems. Mfgr's will tell you that they have balanced voltage, but a lot of them don't address current. Remember a AC motor runs off of "inductance". Inductance produces an opposition to current. This lowers the power factor, and lowers the performance of the motor. different size motors have different inductance values, and add inbalances to the circuit.
Someone familiar with this can balance a motor by adding capacitance to the circuit to raise the power factor. Every RPC I've built for lift stations, I've had to do this for each pump.
You guys that run multiple motors off of your RPC, have you ever "amped" each leg of your motors while running multiple motors?
You can buy a cheap clampon ammeter from Harbor Freight. I would be interested to know what you find. I would be suprised if you didn't have large current inbalances between them.
VFD's on the other hand have logic and corrective circuits built in to give you a unity power factor (1.0).

[Chris Pasko]

I called up Phase Perfect today and spoke with a fellow named Ted. He was a very well informed individual and fully explained the pros and cons of rpc and their machine (which had no cons hehe). I was really pretty impressed with their converter though and do believe I will end up going with their 20hp unit. He did say it has a high pitched whine, but nothing like the rpc, so I guess I will see.

The bad part is the price =), $3950.00 for the unit and another 2-300.00 to ship it. I think with the machines I have the and additions in the future it will be more then worth it. So thanks for all the input guys. What ever I decide I will post pics when it arrives.

[Rob Russell]

Jim,

I stand by my statement that VFDs won't work for Chris.

While you may have setup the VFD for the pumps, I doubt that those pump motors had sophisticated CNC controls. I would also guess that you wired the pump motors so that they were effectively directly controlled by the VFD. You might have had switching back and forth between the pumps, but the VFD effectively controlled the motors.

The machines that Chris bought have CNC control panels between the incoming power and the motors. If you tried to run one of those off of a VFD, you'd fry the VFD. These are not simple "start-stop" machines. Even the RL160 dust collector has overload protective circuitry in it. This is a pic of the control circuitry from my AD751, which is a Felder 20" jointer/planer. It's effectively an older version of the machine Chris has coming, but mine does have the electric raise and lower with digital positioning, so you can get an idea of the control panel's complexity.

<img src="http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=23019&d=1125138841"/>

Rob

[Jim Davenport]

Wow, I stand corrected on using a VFD on those machines. I didn't have any idea that they were that sophisticated. You're correct I wouldn't recommend a VFD for that application.
One thing I would say, is be sure not to use the generated leg for control power for the electronics. I looked at the generated third leg on my RPC with an "O" scope one time. It was very dirty, and had a lot of "Harmonics in it.

[Rob Russell]

Jim,

There is an even more important reason not to use the generated leg from a RPC for anything other than as one of the legs to feed a 3-phase motor.

The voltage on that leg will be 208 volts to ground when you're talking about a RPC that's generating the third leg from 120v/240v single phase power. It's commonly referred to as the "high", "wild" or "bastard" leg. Use that leg to feed a standard 120v receptacle and you'll fry whatever you plug into it. The high voltage could also do a number on control circuits.

Rob