Drawer joinery questions

[Rick Peek]

O.K. As I consider myself as a amutuer,I have plenty of questions.
Today I want to learn about what is considered acceptable drawer
joinery. I just recently purchased some furniture from Flat Rock
and Old Hickory for my camp. This stuff ain't cheap! I started looking
at the drawers and saw that they are basically rabbited & brad nailed.
Same with the Old Hickory. Is this an acceptable joint? Are dovetails
really needed or are they overbuild? Also I see that on most drawers
in all my home furniture,the wood is fairly thin & very light. What
kind of wood is generally used in production furniture? It seems
that most production furniture is built in a way that would never
be acceptable if you were building it yourself or for a customer.
It seems like they use alot of basic joinery and brad nails for almost
everything that can't be seen. Is all the joinery I am trying to learn
just plain over doing it?

[CPeter James]

It is not overdoing it if you want it to last. I dovetail all my drawers and build them out of solid red oak. Sometimes I do use oak or maple plywood for the bottoms depending on the drawer size and what is going to be put into them. Most fractory made stuff is not going to last.

CPeter

[Chris Giles]

Rick,
In the American Furniture Lexicon, nothing is more synonamous with quality than a dovetail joint. You are never wasting your time producing these beatiful and functional little wonders. I would suggest that if you are hand cutting, you might consider the "Norm Abram" method of doing the two front corners DT, and rabbeting the back corners. This style saves you the time of cutting the DT's on the seldom-seen back part of the drawer, which is nice if you have a kitchen-load of them to produce. If its for one special cabinet, dovetails all around.
If you are machining the joint with a dovetail jig, do all corners this way becuase it is relatively quick and very strong.
When looking over a piece of furniture to evaluate quality, customers will usually feel the finish, then open the drawer and look for dovetails. Any other joint at this critical stress point will leave them thinking the piece is less than it could be.

[Ken Salisbury]

The attached drawing is the method I have used for many, many years. I prefer using poplar for drawer boxes and then attach false fronts.


http://www.oldrebelworkshop.com/Drawer2.gif

[Dev Emch]

Hi Rick...
Drawers are a topic you can spend endless hours mastering. They can also consume lots of time if your not careful. In general, you hit the nail on the head when describing most commercial drawers. Total Cheese! They are doen that wey because its fast. They are not done that way to last.

Another area that shows the lack of skills and the inability to spend a few minutes to do the job right is the drawer front. Fitting a drawer is a learned skill. Often, the builder is in quite a hurry and so he or she cheats. They use an exterior overlay that screws to the drawer front. This makes the front of the drawer a sandwhich and its wrong. The reason its done this way is speed and ease. You dont need to fit the drawer front with the rest of the drawer parts and these as an assembly into the drawer hole.

There are multi spindle machines like a Dodds Dovertailer that cut fixed, tiny tail dovetails. Often a drawer side is crammed full of these tiny tails. All the same size and all machine perfect but often not fitting correctly or not sanded down correctly. This is also cheesy since it points the finger at the mass production machinery that made them.

Here is the way you should make drawers. The two front joints are blind dovetails or half lap tails. The rear of the dawer is through tails. On good furniture, you often see oak used as drawer linings albeit the american masters often used pine. One way to tell if an antique was made in england or the US when of a similar design style.

The bottom of the drawer can be a solid, feathered panel that is inverted or a sheet of plywood. The rear of the drawer is cut such that the bottom can slide into the drawer. A small tack or brad in the center end of the drawer bottom holds it in place.

The two aft joints are through dovetails.

I would suggest you look at getting a Leigh D-4 jig to solve your immediate tailing issues until you can do them by hand. I like the D-4 since it gives me variable spacing and variable tail count.

So that is how I make drawers. Well, only some basic info.

[Jay T. Marlin]

Hi Rick...
Another area that shows the lack of skills and the inability to spend a few minutes to do the job right is the drawer front. Fitting a drawer is a learned skill. Often, the builder is in quite a hurry and so he or she cheats. They use an exterior overlay that screws to the drawer front. This makes the front of the drawer a sandwhich and its wrong.
I guess David Marks doesn't know what he's doing then.

http://www.djmarks.com/portfolio/buffet2.jpg

Seriously though, the "front sandwich" false front is something that the majority of furniture buyers will overlook. I know because I used to make all my drawers with single piece fronts and nobody cared. People love dovetails though. That is something that anybody can appreciate, even if they miss it at first and you have to point it out to them.

[tod evans]

here is what i consider proper drawer joinery....02 tod

30982

30983

[Steve Clardy]

I just use a drawer lock bit.
My area of work, it doesn't pay to do dovetails, as most won't pay the price.

[Lee Schierer]

Dovetails add far more strength than most other types of joints to drawers. The only joint that is stronger is the finger joint, but it doesn't look as nice. Nailed drawers are a symptom of mass production where they can't or don't wait for the glue to dry. They will fail rather quickly under heavy use. Locking rabbet joints also work well for drawers, but are more labor to make. In the make it quick and cheap world we live in many manufaturers just won't invest the labor or machinery into dovetails. All my furniture gets doevtailed drawers that have doevetails on all four corners. I generally use 1/2" thick clear poplar for the drawer sides.

[John Hemenway]

I know dovetails are the class act, but I'm not so sure a well made nailed drawer is so bad. Our kitchen cabinets are nailed. The work is more than 40 years old and still going strong. No fancy drawer glides either, just center mount wood track.

Sure, for 'fine woodworking' designed to last hundreds of years, DT are the way to go. For other more 'day to day' work I see no problem with nailed, drawer lock or pocket hole construction. I don't think it is a strength issue, but an aesthetic one.

[Rick Peek]

Thanks everyone! Odviously draw joinery is something that is
near & dear to all at SMC. I knew i would get my questions
answered here. O/k so tell me the definition of "half Blind"
and full dovetails. Also,what is a drawer lock?
( Sorry for the dumb questions, I'm trying to learn with no formal
training, but I'm pretty handy. I'll eventually get it.:) )

[tod evans]

Thanks everyone! Odviously draw joinery is something that is
near & dear to all at SMC. I knew i would get my questions
answered here. O/k so tell me the definition of "half Blind"
and full dovetails. Also,what is a drawer lock?
( Sorry for the dumb questions, I'm trying to learn with no formal
training, but I'm pretty handy. I'll eventually get it.:) )

rick, the pic i posted is of handcut half blind. .02 tod

[Mark Singer]

I either dovetail by hand for furniture or use the Kreg jig which is fast and very strong

[Per Swenson]

Hi All,

We use the leigh for our cat houses.

On our Back Bars the Base cabinets are made with

3/4 overlay doors and drawers, so the faces of the

cat houses are applied to the front.

this is a cathouse drawer for the top glass cabinets and is not

overlay.

It is designed as a locking reciept drawer, hence that big hole in it.

Per

[Steve Clardy]

Drawer lock bit

[Lee Schierer]

Also,what is a drawer lock?
( Sorry for the dumb questions, I'm trying to learn with no formal
training, but I'm pretty handy. I'll eventually get it.:) )

There's no such thing as dumb questions when you are trying to learn. A drawer lock joint or locking rabbet joint looks like the corners in this box.http://home.earthlink.net/~us71na/maplebox.jpg

[Greg Narozniak]

I know dovetails are the class act, but I'm not so sure a well made nailed drawer is so bad. Our kitchen cabinets are nailed. The work is more than 40 years old and still going strong. No fancy drawer glides either, just center mount wood track.

Sure, for 'fine woodworking' designed to last hundreds of years, DT are the way to go. For other more 'day to day' work I see no problem with nailed, drawer lock or pocket hole construction. I don't think it is a strength issue, but an aesthetic one.

Ditto to what John said. My Parents house built in 1965 has nailed drawers and never had one fail. My house was built in 1971 and has Nailed drawers and have never hade one fail.

For astetics I do dovetail them. I think is shows quality went into the construction but if you use good slides I doubt a good gluee and nail would fail.

Greg

[Ken Garlock]

Another option is the lock miter joint. I just finished 3 drawers for my new garage cabinets using the lock miter joint router bit. The results are nice, but the setup is almost like trying to give an enema to a mad wolverine:eek: :rolleyes: You can use up a lot of scrap getting it just right. Another feature is that the locked miter is self squaring, like a dovetail joint.

[John Hemenway]

Thanks Ken. I needed that mental imagery to get my Friday off to the proper start! :):)

[Jerry Olexa]

I use 1/2 inch stock and dovetails and rabetts. Do them all at once and assemble later..IMHO Also use cheaper wood (e.g., poplar) for insides and face the front w cherry or wood of choice.

[John Sherrod]

For me, there is no such thing as "overdone". I do woodworking for the sheer joy and pleasure of the craft itself. The best way that I have seen to do drawers is the half blind dovetail. The appearance when the drawer is opened makes it all worth while. But, if time is of the essence and quantity the goal, the lock miter offers a reasonably secure joint as well. Saving a ton of time in setup and execution of the joint. As the title says, it's all a matter of priorities.

[Brian Hale]

......... trying to give an enema to a mad wolverine:eek: :rolleyes: .........

Why would anybody want to do that :eek: :confused: :eek:


Brian

[John Keane]

Ken, right on!. DT's, Rabbet joints, Drawer lock joints are all great. Giving an emema to a Wolverine is the problem. Once the hose is in place you can make them all day.

[John Hebert]

I've done mine in several methods but found that the joint tht catches everyone's attention is the dovetail. Its worth buying a cheap router and using only for this purpose once its been adjusted. A cheap half blind jig for 60.00, and leave it alone once set up.
I use 1/2" stock, and once everything has been set up previously you can whip out drawers quicker than on a table saw and your at the top of the pecking order with cutomers. Worth the effort for reputation, as well as saving shop time

http://www.cjohnhebert.com/newtable6E.jpg

[Peter Mc Mahon]

Hi Dev. Could you explain the difference between a blind dovetail and a half lap tail in regards to the front of a drawer please? Peter

[Thomas Walker]

Speaking of what you should expect when you buy fine furniture -- I would really think you should expect to get dovetails on bedroom furniture sets. I think DT's are an expected feature and unfortunately, for many untrained people, it's about the only sign of quality they know to look for.


On the other hand, with the widespread use of extension hardware the need for DT's is greatly reduced, since the hardware it taking the majority of stress opening and closing the drawer.

It's hard to beat the speed of pocket screws when you can hide the holes behind a false front.

[glenn bradley]

Drawer lock bit:

http://www.rockler.com/search_results.cfm?filter=drawer+lock+bit

Half blinds show on the outside but the pins and tails do not pass all the way through the material like on a finger joint. Full dovetails pass clear through like finger or box joints but are of course dovetail in shape.

[Chris Barton]

Hi Dev. Could you explain the difference between a blind dovetail and a half lap tail in regards to the front of a drawer please? Peter

"Talking the talk versus walking the walk" is a phrase that comes to mind. How a drawer joint is made says more about what you are trying to accomplish than what is demanded physically. A nailed and glued rabbit joint would work fine for most drawers. Also, the notion that the drawer front has to be part of the jointery is gibberish as well. Applique drawer fronts make sense in many applications. This notion that there is "one way" to make drawers or that you "cheated" if you didn't make it a certain way is laughable. Most kitchen cabinetry made today uses applied drawer fronts for precission of fitting and production speed and simplicity. Very strong drawers can be made using Kreg pocket screws and plywood. I would put these up against dovetailed joints any day for strength and durability.

So, bottom line question is; what do you need to make drawers for and how badly do you want to use one particular joint over another? Chose your construction techniques based upon what is necessary and what you like or can make.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

The answer is very simple. If you don't use dovetails you aren't a real man and you eat quiche.
If you don't cut them by hand you are not an adult man with bulgie muscles.

However Only REAL MEN nail their drawers together. It is considered a mark of absolute manhood to use cement coated framing nails as it hurts like hell when you drive 'em in or pull 'em out and they make you they bleed a lot too. However, they have better staying power so your drawers won't fall off while you are out and about doing manly things with manly men.

[Jamie Buxton]

For higher-end jobs, I use solid wood sides and dovetails. Most customers have heard of dovetails, and think they're a mark of excellence.

For plywood drawer boxess, I use the lock rabbet. It is cut entirely on the table saw, so it is fast. Yesterday I cut the joinery for eight drawers in about 30 minutes, and I wasn't hurrying or anything. Unlike the nail-on scheme, it is self-aligning at glue-up. Like the dovetail, it is mechanically-interlocking in the direction involved in pulling a drawer open. It is also amenable to a trick I've been using for a while: varnishing the drawer parts before assembly. I find varnishing is much easier on flat parts.

[Corvin Alstot]

Dovetails add far more strength than most other
types of joints to drawers. The only joint that is stronger is the finger
joint, but it doesn't look as nice.
Lee/ Although I do not disagree with your statements in general,
finger joints can be made to look exceptional. The drawer fronts
of many Greene and Greene designed drawers look pretty cool. Of course
you have to take time to round edges, add ebony plugs and custom
drawer pulls to give it some elegance!

[Alan Tolchinsky]

Another option is the lock miter joint. I just finished 3 drawers for my new garage cabinets using the lock miter joint router bit. The results are nice, but the setup is almost like trying to give an enema to a mad wolverine:eek: :rolleyes: You can use up a lot of scrap getting it just right. Another feature is that the locked miter is self squaring, like a dovetail joint.

"like trying to give an enema to a mad wolverine"
Ken, Have you done this? How do you know? :) Thanks for the smile, very funny!