mixing grain cutting vs chess boards

[Charlie Fox]

I understand with a cutting board that mixing grains is a bad idea - the board goes through wet/dry cycles everytime is is used then washed, and people often only wash the used side of the board and lay it flat to dry - i always instruct the recipients of my boards to wash both sides equally and stand it up to dry.

and i have been told by those that make a lot of cutting boards that putting a cross grain border is a bad idea - and i get it - and i have made several dozed end grain and an equal number of face'edge grain boards. but no borders......

so i have made a chess board with a border. i am told it is going to crack. period. there are people who say they use cross grain borders with no problem. seriously two totally opposite sides to this.

BUT:

consider this:

1) a chess board is not going to get wet. pretty much will be inside a controled climate all its life
2) cutting boards dont get a finish. just oil. so water penetrates deeper when wet, and humidity as well.
3) i realize polyurethane is not a complete seal, but 3-4 coats of poly equally on all sides of the board will seal the pores somewhat and reduce the amount of moisture, how much who knows, but clearly it will seal better than no finish as well as better than just mineral oil. so its is sealed somewhat and will never get wet.

so my point is if it takes x amount of moisture to cause y amount of movement that will fail, then x/2 amount of moisture will not cause enough movement to cause failure.

i have also had some say that maybe it wont crack, but there will/may/could be other movement such that you will feel the joint if one side swells/shrinks - like a little lip - and i could live with that.
also consider that only the ends - in this case the walnut - borders are cross grain. the maple on the side is parallel to the face grain of the board

so wondering if anyone has any experience to share considering all the above - please see photos to illustrate my description

the basics: 1.25" thick, walnut and hard maple, though i also sumetimes use white oak and ash, squares are 2.25", total dimensions about 21x21". all glued with TBIII

[Richard Coers]

Plenty of moisture changes due to the seasons to cause your board to crack. If not the first couple of years, sometime in the future. Seasonal wood movement allowance is the most basic rule of wood construction.

[Jim Becker]

The "trick" is to use very thin pieces of the various contrasting material, no matter what the grain and put it on a stable substrate. The thickness shouldn't be more than .25" but preferably thinner so it's more of a veneer than blocks of wood and it should be a lot less prone to seasonal movement issues.

[andrew whicker]

Experimental data is the only absolute way of knowing the truth. All else is essentially theory (based on other similar experiments hopefully). So I guess just let us know how it turns out in a few years? 10 years? Etc. Even then there is "who knows" factor that can never be accounted for and you may just get lucky.

To me, the point of "over engineering" a piece of work is to ensure you don't have a failure some time long in the future. Imagine you make 50 of these over the spanning 10 years and then find out the first one you made fails. Now you have 49 more just waiting to fail?

The point being, by the time you see the failure you may have also used the same techniques in that time span in between. So now what? We don't live long enough to really get data on each piece we make and then change our techniques. We can only really use over kill engineering from experience of others before us.

In the chess board case, you may be right. It's small, stays in the same environment, doesn't get abused, you could get lucky, etc. However, even then, a positive outcome does not necessarily correspond to correct decision making.

[Charlie Fox]

i agree and i know thats how commercially produced boards are made, but takes away the whole desireability of solid wood. my aim is that the board will be far less vulnerable to issues seing that it has a finish and will not get wet, so movement is from climatic factors only. i see it like this - if i applied a 1/4" thick layer of lacquer it would be fully sealed and never fail, and if i didnt put anything at all on it and left it outside it would crack and warp to the high heavens - so somewhere in between is a goldilocks zone.

so what type of failure would you predict? cracking along the walnut border joint? or movement along the same or all joints where it is just a little uneven?

[Richard Coers]

i agree and i know thats how commercially produced boards are made, but takes away the whole desireability of solid wood. my aim is that the board will be far less vulnerable to issues seing that it has a finish and will not get wet, so movement is from climatic factors only. i see it like this - if i applied a 1/4" thick layer of lacquer it would be fully sealed and never fail, and if i didnt put anything at all on it and left it outside it would crack and warp to the high heavens - so somewhere in between is a goldilocks zone.

so what type of failure would you predict? cracking along the walnut border joint? or movement along the same or all joints where it is just a little uneven?
1/4" of lacquer is a disaster in itself. Lacquer is very brittle and will crack easier than the wood. What is 1/4" of lacquer, 100 coats? Go ahead, break the rules. You wouldn't be the first one.
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[Kent A Bathurst]

Shrinkulator says with 35% rh >> 65% rh [the range where I live], 18" of HM will move 3/8" tangential, and 18" of black walnut 2/8". So over a years cycle, the parts will be moving in and out at that differential. I didn't address the borders, because the cross-grain walnut border is going to try to keep the board from moving 3/8". That's the first failure. KJerblooey.

So you pays yer money and takes yer picks. Also, consider the intended destination, I had a friend/neighbor/client commission an A&C dining room out of QSWO, Drawbored breadboard ends. Lovely for the first 3 years, then they moved to St Louis. Where, I came to learn, the RH goes to, like, nothing in the winter. My peg slots did not accommodate that, so on a trip there I had to rejigger it. 3/16" split at one place in a 42" wide table.

I don't get the point about "he whole desirability of solid wood". The finest museums in the land have veneered furniture pieces from centuries ago

You're trying to talk yourself into this. That's fine, but you don't seem to be getting anyone jumping on the wagon with you. But you can always say "It's solid wood"

[Charlie Fox]

that was just an example, i would never do that. you totally missed the whole point

[Kent A Bathurst]

that was just an example, i would never do that. you totally missed the whole point

Richard or I missed the point?

Could be either one - we generally do when engaging each other :)

[Richard Coers]

that was just an example, i would never do that. you totally missed the whole point
How would I know you would never do that? You are working hard to support your build ignoring the laws of wood movement. Is your question about what fails just an example too? I thought the whole point was will your chessboard crack. What part did I miss?

[Jim Morgan]

The "desirability of solid wood" is a destructive myth.

First, wood is hygroscopic, changing in dimension with changes in ambient humidity. Applying film finishes may retard the process, but it will not completely prevent it: wood WILL move. And since it moves in width but generally not in length, cross-grain constructions of any appreciable thickness will inevitably and invariably lead to cracking.

Second, using solid wood in the application you desire is a waste of a fast-dwindling resource.

Veneer over an engineered substrate (plywood, mdf, etc.) offers much greater stability and longevity, and veneers are a more economical and sustainable source for exotic woods and stunning grain patterns that may be impossible to find in the solid.

[Charlie Fox]

wow guys, settle down - the board is already made so no going back on it. i was mainly asking in the OP "wondering if anyone has any experience to share considering all the above"
so apparently no one does.

my next point is i already have a fair amount of 6/4 walnut and white oak so i will either make cutting boards or chess boards. i prefer the chess at this point.

a chess board is basically a form of cutting board by construction. my cutting boards have lasted many years with LOTS of wet/dry cycles even in my daughters old leaky farmhouse with less than desireable controlled climate in Texas.

so yeah - i am fixed on making this work, and i think my arguement that it wont go through wet/dry constantly and it is partially sealed so the amount of moisture penetrating the wood IS REDUCED significamntly holds at least some water. clearly some of your opinions differ.

i have a 10 year old mesquite natural edge coffee table with cross grain ends - glues with epoxy. still perfect but of curse some of you eill say just wait another year.

so one question unanswered was where and how do you think it will fail?

it was suggested in a cutting board group that i should maybe make the end border using several pieces of stock oriented the same way, that way the dised and the ends all have face grain running up and down.

or - it was suggested by a guy at Woodcraft that i could fit the ends with a brass strip similar to a T&G breadboard, gluing each side only to the brass so the wood can float each other.

think i'll consider each, i'll get back to you all in a few years.

[Charlie Fox]

The "desirability of solid wood" is a destructive myth.

First, wood is hygroscopic, changing in dimension with changes in ambient humidity. Applying film finishes may retard the process, but it will not completely prevent it: wood WILL move. And since it moves in width but generally not in length, cross-grain constructions of any appreciable thickness will inevitably and invariably lead to cracking.

Second, using solid wood in the application you desire is a waste of a fast-dwindling resource.

Veneer over an engineered substrate (plywood, mdf, etc.) offers much greater stability and longevity, and veneers are a more economical and sustainable source for exotic woods and stunning grain patterns that may be impossible to find in the solid.

by this logic we should start making cutting boards with substrate. let me know how that goes over.

"desirability of solid wood" is a myth? maybe not sustainable but far from a myth. why do people desire 1.5 and 2" thick end grain cutting boards? dont see many 3/4" out there. face grain maybe but thats it. i even make those, but my ~18x24"x1.5" end grain boards are the most coveted by friends and family that buy them. maybe i'll make one with a baltic birch backing and see how that sells. or maybe not.

[Charlie Fox]

i'm thinking i should ask for my $6 back....LOL

[Cameron Wood]

The "desirability of solid wood" is a destructive myth.

First, wood is hygroscopic, changing in dimension with changes in ambient humidity. Applying film finishes may retard the process, but it will not completely prevent it: wood WILL move. And since it moves in width but generally not in length, cross-grain constructions of any appreciable thickness will inevitably and invariably lead to cracking.

Second, using solid wood in the application you desire is a waste of a fast-dwindling resource.

Veneer over an engineered substrate (plywood, mdf, etc.) offers much greater stability and longevity, and veneers are a more economical and sustainable source for exotic woods and stunning grain patterns that may be impossible to find in the solid.



I don't agree with this. The biggest and most perfect trees are cut to make veneer, which goes to make endless miles of crap.

[John Kananis]

Nobody makes 3/4 end grain cutting boards because they'll warp and fall apart quickly.

Cutting board with substrate...hmm, time and a place. Instead, just use sound theory when assembling one.

As far as the OP, veneer (not so challenging for this type of project, you don't even need a vacuum press) or it'll crack. There are ways to make a chess board with solid wood but it would involve a lot deeper understanding of wood movement and joinery.

Using Baltic birch as backing to an end grain board...I don't even know how to respond to this. Joking?


by this logic we should start making cutting boards with substrate. let me know how that goes over.

"desirability of solid wood" is a myth? maybe not sustainable but far from a myth. why do people desire 1.5 and 2" thick end grain cutting boards? dont see many 3/4" out there. face grain maybe but thats it. i even make those, but my ~18x24"x1.5" end grain boards are the most coveted by friends and family that buy them. maybe i'll make one with a baltic birch backing and see how that sells. or maybe not.

[Charlie Fox]

ok then how about a joint like this with bisquits ?

DISCALIMER - THIS IS NOT A REAL JOINT. I AM NOT GOING TO GLUE THIS. THIS IS LOOSE STOCK IN A MOCK UP FOR DEMONSTRATION PURPOSES ONLY



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[Clint Baxter]

wow guys, settle down - the board is already made so no going back on it. i was mainly asking in the OP "wondering if anyone has any experience to share considering all the above"
so apparently no one does.

my next point is i already have a fair amount of 6/4 walnut and white oak so i will either make cutting boards or chess boards. i prefer the chess at this point.

Charlie, I made a chessboard of a similar type when I was in shop class in high school. It was 1-3/4" thick maple and black walnut in the field of the board, and had 6" wide sides of black walnut. The outer border pieces were mitered together and glued to the chessboard center. It lasted a couple of years, if I remember correctly, before it self-destructed, blowing out one of the miter joints with most of one side separating from the chessboard center piece. I used a three step Seal-A-Cell finish on it IIRC.

I made that piece back in 1973, so some of the details may not be the clearest, but I learned from that piece that one needs to build pieces that accommodate the expansion and contraction of the finished piece.

Unfortunately, I've evidently not learned that well enough, as seen in this recent piece I did. 506659 I thought these would be okay and expand and contract evenly, but the outer rim expanded much more than the center, splitting apart all three of these game boards that I made this year. They were constructed during the winter, which is quite dry here in ND. When everything warmed up and our relative humidity climbed, I ended up with a bunch of split game boards.

[John Kananis]

Biscuits are not meant for this type of thing (nor are Dominos if your brain just went there). That's pretty much a breadboard end - if attached a such (without gluing) it'll keep the pieces together but you'll have the main part of the board either proud or shy of the length of the breadboards depending on which season it is.


ok then how about a joint like this with bisquits ?

DISCALIMER - THIS IS NOT A REAL JOINT. I AM NOT GOING TO GLUE THIS. THIS IS LOOSE STOCK IN A MOCK UP FOR DEMONSTRATION PURPOSES ONLY



506657

[Cameron Wood]

Biscuits are not meant for this type of thing (nor are Dominos if your brain just went there). That's pretty much a breadboard end - if attached a such (without gluing) it'll keep the pieces together but you'll have the main part of the board either proud or shy of the length of the breadboards depending on which season it is.



The border piece is end grain, so it should have compatible movement with the field pieces.

[John Kananis]

Good eye, didn't notice that.

I still wouldn't biscuit. We've dowels would be better, Dominos work there too but idk, I still think it's... misguided.


The border piece is end grain, so it should have compatible movement with the field pieces.

[Cameron Wood]

Charlie, I made a chessboard of a similar type when I was in shop class in high school. It was 1-3/4" thick maple and black walnut in the field of the board, and had 6" wide sides of black walnut. The outer border pieces were mitered together and glued to the chessboard center. It lasted a couple of years, if I remember correctly, before it self-destructed, blowing out one of the miter joints with most of one side separating from the chessboard center piece. I used a three step Seal-A-Cell finish on it IIRC.

I made that piece back in 1973, so some of the details may not be the clearest, but I learned from that piece that one needs to build pieces that accommodate the expansion and contraction of the finished piece.

Unfortunately, I've evidently not learned that well enough, as seen in this recent piece I did. 506659 I thought these would be okay and expand and contract evenly, but the outer rim expanded much more than the center, splitting apart all three of these game boards that I made this year. They were constructed during the winter, which is quite dry here in ND. When everything warmed up and our relative humidity climbed, I ended up with a bunch of split game boards.


I made a similar small round piece from scrap a while ago, & ended up leaving one joint open, and fitted a small key in the edge, across the joint to allow movement.

This was the result of playing around with an offcut of close grain timber. It was air dried many years, and solid when I put it together, but checks opened up, and vary in size noticeably over time. Possibly it involved compression set from the moisture in the glue, or from the finish. About 3/4" thick. I was not expecting this to perform well, or to last.

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[Richard Coers]

so one question unanswered was where and how do you think it will fail?


Did you not look at the pictures. I showed you exactly how they will fail.

[Mike Mason]

I won't add much to what has been said already many times, but four things come to mind:

1. In Junior HS, we were all required to make a solid top table that they had us frame with solid stock and mitered corners. Of course, the miters opened up after a year or two. You would have thought that someone in a large urban school district (a city of 650,000 people) would have known better than to incorporate cross-grain construction in the design of a project that every school required every boy to make. Every year, at all the schools, all male students had to make the same table; I wonder how many thousands of tables were made this way (i.e., incorrectly)?

2. I made about two dozen chessboards for sale about 15 years ago, and I used 1/4" solid stock that was centrally glued onto a sheet good substrate, running all of the grain in the same direction. I made a solid wood trim molding with mitered corners that was securely glued to the sheet good substrate and overlapped the 1/4" solid stock by 1/16" (i.e., it wasn't attached to the 1/4" solid stock) so that the 1/4" solid wood could move around a bit. Potential problem avoided.

3. I made a pair of lighted Asian-style tables with four-part "pinwheel" tops surrounding a central Motawi tile, and I only glued the pinwheel parts together at the very middle near the tile, but kept them in the same plane with a loose spline. They have stayed perfectly aligned and without gaps for a couple of years now.

4. I have to agree with everyone else, it seems that the OP is hoping to get people to agree with his thoughts, but once again science will win out - avoiding cross-grain construction, unless there is freedom of movement designed in, is woodworking 101 (except in a certain metropolitan school district in the early 1970's - see #1 above).

[al ladd]

"i have a 10 year old mesquite natural edge coffee table with cross grain ends - glues with epoxy. still perfect but of curse some of you eill say just wait another year."

Mesquite is among the most dimensionally stable woods in the world. Not relevant at all to walnut and maple (maple is especially bad)....