How worried should I be about cupping on a Dutch tool chest lid?

[Ben Zachary]

Hi friends, Question from a relative newbie handtool woodworker:

I am building a dutch tool chest I bought materials for, uhh, 2 years ago. At the time I bought a large 20" wide board for the lid, but I decided to save it for something I won't paint, so I jointed up a 1x9 wide pine board that has been sitting in my basement for years. There was a good amount of cupping in the board which I planed out, I also reduced the thickness from 1" to 3/4"

Typically in these chests, builders do either fancy breadboard ends, or install battens to the underside of the lid. I was going to forego the breadboard ends because I'm impatient, I could still do these. I worked up some oak battens, but I was debating on installing them or not, for a cleaner look.

Should I assume wood movement on a 16" wide board, even after the material has been sitting for a few years in the house? I'm thinking I could wait until I see cupping, then install the battens to try and pull it flat.

edit: Now that I think about this more, I guess this is why people have been doing frame and panel construction for hundreds of years, whereas I can count the number of weeks I've been woodworking on my fingers.

[glenn bradley]

Wood continues to move as it absorbs and releases moisture in the atmosphere. That is; it doesn't really stop moving just because it is old. On the upside your woodworking will help you with your impatience. Impatient woodworkers don't stick with it long in my experience. I'm a little unclear by this statement: "At the time I bought a large 20" wide board for the lid, but I decided to save it for something I won't paint, so I jointed up 1x9 wide pine board that has been sitting in my basement for years." Do you mean you ripped the 20" board into 9" planks and they have been setting in the basement or is the large board still available and you plan to use it? If you are going to use a wide plank in an unsupported construction (no frame or other supporting mechanism) I would use battens with one fixed hole/screw and other slotted holes/screws to allow for movement.

[steven c newman]

Hmmmmm..ask Chris Schwarz about it?
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As this is his version..

[Ben Zachary]

Sorry if I was unclear, the 20" board is still intact. I jointed a different board for the lid, I did not alternate the grain direction. I guess I'll likely go with the battens...

I had the same thought about patience! It truly results in a better end result. Being in a rush causes ruined parts or rough work. I don't mind "imperfect" work for hand tool woodworking. If something is handmade it's okay if it looks so. I have a tendency to shoot first and ask questions later rather than being meticulous. I eventually learn after shooting myself in the foot a few times

[Ben Zachary]

The question itself wasn't particular to this specific chest, my long winded question was more like: does a wide flat sawn board stop significantly moving after a few years.

[Jim Koepke]

The question itself wasn't particular to this specific chest, my long winded question was more like: does a wide flat sawn board stop significantly moving after a few years.

Hi Ben and a belated welcome to the Creek.

The answer to your question is no. A wide flat sawn board can, and most likely will, continue moving after a few years.

This is why over the centuries woodworkers have developed and learned methods of building to prevent problems caused by nature.

Battens near the board's ends can also help in keeping dust from entering a Dutch tool chest.

jtk

[Richard Coers]

Make one of these. https://www.instructables.com/Humidity-Gauge-Made-Out-of-Wood/
It will let you visualize how much wood moves from season to season. Go on Facebook Marketplace and look at vintage tool chests. There are basically zero chests that don't have at least one board that is almost split in half. Wood moves forever, well except for fossilized wood.

[Ben Zachary]

Thanks and thanks for the input, the battens will go on. I was considering a low profile molding on the outside edge of the lid as a dust seal, we'll see...

[chris carter]

I don’t have near the experience of others on this forum. But I’ve had to make a number of things between 16-20” wide without support from breadboard ends or battens and they have all stayed very flat. While I would never bet my life on it, I feel like if you are working with fully seasoned wood, if you thin from both sides so as not to introduce stress, and if you put finish on both sides so it absorbs and loses moisture at the same rate from both sides, then you have a reasonably good chance that things aren’t going to taco on you. Might not stay engineer flat, but flat enough. I always put a couple coats of shellac, WOP, or whatever I'm using, on the back side of really wide unsupported boards because failing to do so is almost guaranteeing cupping. Also, it's questionable just how much battens or breadboard ends will really keep a board flat. They might help, but if a board wants to cup, the forces involved are so utterly ridiculous that there isn't a whole lot you can do to stop it. If the breadboard ends don't bend, then the cupping boards between the ends will simply break themselves. I've seen multiple guys on youtube that specializing in charging a billion dollars for giant slap tables and they will tell you that the C-channels they use don't actually do much of anything to keep the slabs flat.

I think the bigger reason for battens on a tool chest is just strength so that you don’t accidentally break the lid opening and closing it, dropping stuff on it, banging it around as you move around the shop, or when it falls off the horse wagon as you head down the bumpy wagon tracks on your way to the next job (if you have a car, then this probably isn’t a problem for you….).

[steven c newman]

One idea, that I have seen a few times....They'd mill a couple sliding dovetails across the grain of the lid. Then slide a batten through, glue on just one end...Batten was also flush with the surface of the lid. Can be "proud" IF you want...or, just flush.

[Ben Zachary]

I think the bigger reason for battens on a tool chest is just strength so that you don’t accidentally break the lid opening and closing it, dropping stuff on it, banging it around as you move around the shop, or when it falls off the horse wagon as you head down the bumpy wagon tracks on your way to the next job (if you have a car, then this probably isn’t a problem for you….).

Good call on shellac, I wasn't going to paint the underside, but I have shellac! That and I will do my best not to drop the chest off the horse wagon


One idea, that I have seen a few times....They'd mill a couple sliding dovetails across the grain of the lid. Then slide a batten through, glue on just one end...Batten was also flush with the surface of the lid. Can be "proud" IF you want...or, just flush.

Sounds neat, but that may be above my paygrade for this project. But you remind me of this image: https://rudemechanicalspress.files.wordpress.com/2019/04/screen-shot-2019-04-14-at-8.14.51-am.png

The lid is clearly blown apart, who knows if it was ever glued. At first I thought the strap behind the hinges were inlaid battens like what you are talking about, but now that I'm looking at them I wonder if they aren't metal.


Make one of these. https://www.instructables.com/Humidity-Gauge-Made-Out-of-Wood/
It will let you visualize how much wood moves from season to season. Go on Facebook Marketplace and look at vintage tool chests. There are basically zero chests that don't have at least one board that is almost split in half. Wood moves forever, well except for fossilized wood.

That is so cool

[steven c newman]

I keep wondering about the tool chests this crew used...
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[Daniel Culotta]

I'd go ahead and put the battens on - might as well while you're in the middle of the build. Also, once pine settles down it remains more stable (i.e. moves less) than hardwood over time. So, you'd probably be fine, but I'd just add the battens for insurance so you don't have to worry about it again.

[Gary Focht]

They do an online question and answer most Saturday mornings at Lost Art Press. You could ask directly what they think. They’ve built tons of these out of various woods.

[Derek Cohen]

Ben, unless you live in a climate controlled cave, you will run the risk of wood movement …. Especially if you only finish one side of the lid, as you planned to do.

My preference would be to add breadboards, which as easier to design and build for movement than battens. Just make sure that you paint them separately before assembly, otherwise the paint will glue them together and defeat the purpose.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[James Jayko]

When I made mine, I did breadboard ends on the top because I didn't like the look of the battens. Has been fine / completely stable for 4-5 years.

[Megan Fitzpatrick]

These days in classes, we put battens (usually oak) on the outside edges of the lids. I pull these from the scrap bin, but I try for about 1" thick x 1-1/2" wide. Drill countersunk clearance holes in the lid; drill pilot holes in the battens. 1-1/2" screws through the top into the battens. Oh – and most students opt to put a 30° angle on the back edge of the battens (to match the lid angle) and clip the front corners at 45°, leaving a 3/8" or so flat where it contacts the lid. It's a traditional approach to battens, and it helps to serve as a dust seal. And I can't speak for my students, but I almost always take the battens back off before painting the lid and case, then use oil/wax on the battens and other oak parts (fall front battens, catch, lock, etc) before re-installing. The waxed/oiled wood looks great against the paint.

[Ben Zachary]

Ack, I missed a bunch of replies here! Thanks so much all!

I did see the exterior battens in your article on the chests Megan, but I ultimately went with interior battens that I put hard up against the outside edge. I like the breadboard ends, but I'm slow and just wanted to get the dang thing together.

The chest is mostly complete, just some tool organizing to go. There are a lot of sins here, but this is really my first build of much of anything. It was a lot of fun putting it together

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[Cameron Wood]

Looks good!