Mortise and tenon vs pocket screws for cab builds

[andrew whicker]

Right now I use a lot of pocket screws. It's fast and simple.

I use them for box construction and face frames.

However, I have been using kreg which is far too angled and has a lot of tear out. So looking at upgrading to castle or similar.

I do know someone selling their m and t setup (benchtop mortiser and 3/4 shaper with cutters) for $600. The castle handheld machine (110) is around the same price. His setup isn't anything special, just some cheesy ish Delta equipment. He is retiring so I know he used this setup a lot and it obviously works. I don't have the money to a foot pedal version yet and I haven't seen any on auction.

But it has me wondering what other cab people do. I would think there is no way to beat the speed of a pocket hole machine, especially with a foot pedal. And from what i see the low angle of the castle machine works really well. And, of course, self clamping.

So I guess just wondering what you guys do. And if speed difference is pretty minor. If clamping is differences are pretty minor. If any differences in quality are minor. Etc.

[andrew whicker]

I should say he has invited me to check out how he builds a cab. I'll have to take him up on the offer. It's just an hour away so I have to set aside the time

[John Kananis]

Pocket holes are good for certain things but the mortiser and shaper will allow you to do finer work.

[Warren Lake]

you need to decide what is right for you. All the musicians and craftsman I know always do their best work and try and get better.

This trade not so its been dumbed down by gizmo inventors whos focus was money. They sold 90 percent on save time. No time is saved when everyone else has the same gizmo as you. Most shops use them, id go to your friends its worth the time, at least you understand his set up.

[andrew whicker]

Pocket holes are good for certain things but the mortiser and shaper will allow you to do finer work.

I have a 1 1/4 shaper and I never really envisioned owning a smaller shaper. I do think a mortiser would be good to have. It's seems like a tool that ends up on my longer term list of items vs shorter term. I envisioned owning a beefy floor mount though.

To be fair, this guy invested in all 3/4 shapers and is selling tooling at reasonable prices... idk. Seems like it could get me off track spending money for a deal now on equipment I'm not entirely sold on. He has a 3 head 3/4 shaper w tooling to make stiles and rails.

Kind of torn. Just have to keep in mind I can sell in the future. My 1 1/4 shaper has really cost me a lot of money to get up and running so having machines ready to go, even if they aren't my dream machines certainly seem nice.

Well, I rambled again and made another simple thread more complicated. I'm good at that it seems

[Jeff Roltgen]

So I guess just wondering what you guys do.

Tons of pocket holes. I have a Castle style from Safety Speed as well as the Kreg stuff.
Next most used tool: Festool Domino. I go through hundreds of those a year.
Mortise and Tenon? Hate to say, but it can be a solid year+ between uses in my commercial shop. Speed and cost of producing them are why, which circles me right back around to the Domino....

Shaper use; lots, as I make all my own doors in house.

[Warren Lake]

I wouldnt even look at a 3/4 spindle. first one I bought waste of time. 100's of auctions loaded with 1 1/4 and some larger tooling

[Richard Coers]

I don't make face frame cabinets for most cabinets I just screw from the outside since they will be covered with the next cabinet. I end cabinets I use biscuits for construction. I find I only have to clamp for 15 minutes and they can come out of the clamps and left sitting to cure more. I don't consider pocket screws as structural joinery, but more like clamps. Try a little destructive testing. Pocket screws show little strength and pull out very easily.

[glenn bradley]

Pocket holes are handy and can help with some problematic design situations. I don’t use them for structural joinery with the exception of small drawers in shop fixtures. M&T, laps, bridles, dados, and fingers / dt’s make up the bulk of my joinery.

[Kevin Jenness]

If you want to improve and speed up your pocket hole production on a limited budget, a good compromise is the manually operated Castle TSM 12. I picked up a Porter Cable 552, essentially the same unit, for $300 used. Pocket holes are widely used for building face frames and attaching them to boxes and a whole host of other utilitarian things. I was skeptical when I went to work at a shop that used them for face frame joinery but 20 years of experience have proved otherwise.

If you want a stronger, hidden joint for face frames (and many other things) get a Domino. You will still use pocket holes as well. Making mortise and tenon joints with a hollow chisel mortiser and shaper is time consuming. The shaper will cut two shoulders, then you will need another setup for the other two shoulders. Benchtop chisel mortisers are slow and the tooling requires maintenance. Plus, you already have a shaper. Figure out your process, then tool up to make it happen.

By all means, visit your friend's shop and observe his methods, but don't stop there. Visit as many shops as you can and network through professional groups. There are a lot of ways to build cabinets but some of the most efficient methods require considerable investment and volume to pay it back.

[andrew whicker]

Thanks.

I like the porter cable. The castle tsm 12 is 1800! That's a lot for a non foot pedal version in my opinion

I do have a domino (the large one). I'm fine with using that as well.

I agree the mortise and tenon seems time intensive. I'll check it out and see what I think.

[Phillip Mitchell]

I don’t do much cabinetry compared to a cabinet shop but enough to have thought about and refined my process a time or 2.

I don’t have a pocket hole setup at all, though for cabinetry stuff I wish I did. I use a domino (500) for face frame and generally am using the shaper for (cabinet) doors with stub tenons, though I often make mine 1/2-3/4” long opposed to more common 3/8” stub tenon. Cope and stick basically with a coping sled, or some variation on it if totally square edge / no profile which seems to be most of what I do.

I feel partially responsible for the shaper situation, but I would say keep working at getting it 100% and put some miles on it. No need to buy a 3/4” spindle machine just for cabinetry work. I don’t really know anyone as a “cabinetmaker” who uses a mortiser and does trad M&T for cabinetry joinery. Pocket screws are likely more than good enough for FF and other cabinetry stuff aside from doors.

Not sure I’d want to be manhandling a 700 domino that much for smaller FF parts but maybe it’s easier than it looks and you have the conversion kit that allows you to use smaller dominos?

[andrew whicker]

I do think the pockets are the way to go. I just can't believe the prices Castle is asking. And that those machines are missing from used and auction sites.

The shaper is fine. I definitely did not take into consideration the amount of abuse it was subjected to. But... new main motor bearings, some simple re-wiring on the secondary motor, cleaning an old school switch, lots of generic cleaning (still have to figure out why the angle lead screw is so sticky), a chrome plated arbor, lots of moving effort, new electrical and I'm pretty much ready to go. It was / is a fun project and I enjoy learning the ins and outs of a machine. I still have to build a new wood fence for it. Unfortunate it didn't come with a nice steel / cast iron fence. That would have been awesome. I also need to figure out the burlap / cloth bag under the spindle that keeps all the dust above the moving parts. That is going to be critical for motor life. Also still need to have a new cable made for the spindle lock, but that is truly at the bottom of the list for me... probably a few hundred dollars. My biggest fear is that I'll have to do some major surgery at some point.. everything on that machine is so heavy that it will truly be a science project.

Speaking of that Griggio... Bob at Woodworking Tools told me he has a 3/4 shaft with that same taper. He would sell it to me for the cost to chrome plate it (seems like ~$250). I'm wondering if I should take it. I was already considering buying an arbor w/ a router collet later in the future after a few more jobs. This would kind of be an in-between... a 9 HP 3/4 arbor! Otherwise, I check the ads from time to time for a decent used 1 1/4 shaper.

I have the adapter for the 700 that lets you use smaller bits. You just have make your own / buy some plates to center the machine vertically on thin stock. Maybe someday I'll have both the 500 and 700. But considering how many toys.... tools I have planned for the future that one seems on the un-important side of things. My experience is that if you squish in the machine from the 'butt' of the tool it stays pretty flat. I imagine the 500 stays flat w/ a lot less effort.

My biggest ongoing effort is to figure out the shop flow. I just received $1700 in sheet goods and lumber. Lumber isn't a big deal to store, but sheet goods ended up on the saw horse table grid I made. That grid was supposed to be used for breaking down sheets. So I made some sacrificial supports for my workhorse workbench that straddle the top such that they can't tip. However, now my workhorse is a dedicated sheet good cutting area (track saw).

This isn't really the workflow I envisioned as I envisioned... Break down on grid -> Table saw / Radial Arm saw -> Assy / etc. Now I'm Storing -> Breaking Down -> TS / Radial Arm Saw not ready yet -> where to assemble? I think I assumed I would stack the sheet goods against the wall, but once the driver and I loaded them onto my sawhorse setup I wasn't particularly inclined to move around 3/4 BB on my lonesome. Not a big deal as once all the sheets are broken down I'll have my workbench back. Just more of that: clean this, convert this to that, move thing from here to there, store this, etc that keeps efficiency low / also ruins your groove.

Sorry in advance for the run on rambling. Feel like a poor man's Jack Kerouac at times.

[Michael Burnside]

I don’t do much cabinet making compared to furniture building, but when I do, I really like my Castle 110. I’ve built a few over the years using Kreg, but when a recent project came up that needed lots of carcasses, I bought the Castle system. It is night and day not only in the fact that the angle results in no shifting (note I still use moderate clamping) but the quality of cut, especially on veneered plywood. I also like that on large pieces I can bring the tool to the workpiece with no change in setup.

[Scott Winners]

Hi Andrew. I don't post in this section very much, I am pretty much a hand tool guy. I am in the midst of moving to a new shop and having been spending too much time on youtube shop tours lately.

My opinion ( I cut my mortises with chisel and mallet) there are two things to consider. 1. How much shop space do you have available? and 2. Which of your existing customers do you want to cultivate?

As a hand tool guy building furniture as a hobby for my future great grandchildren to fight over someday, a mortiser is going to be my next power tool purchase. Cutting mortises is not fun, but MT joinery has and will continue to stand the tests of time.

If you are feeding your kids using pocket holes with no glue in the joints, I don't have a problem with that but I don't want your cabinets in my house. If you are using pocket hole screws as a sophisticated clamp during glue up, you are probably making cabinets that will last the rest of my life and I do want some of those.

If you already have a table saw I have seen, very recently, a metric ton of MT joints for face frames cut on table saws. The wood does not know which tool was used to make strong joints. Compared to the price of the mortiser and shaper, how much would it cost to upgrade your tablesaw to something that can handle a dado stack without taking up a lot more room in your shop?

Whatever you are doing, good luck and best wishes.

[Kevin Jenness]

My biggest ongoing effort is to figure out the shop flow. I just received $1700 in sheet goods and lumber. Lumber isn't a big deal to store, but sheet goods ended up on the saw horse table grid I made. That grid was supposed to be used for breaking down sheets. So I made some sacrificial supports for my workhorse workbench that straddle the top such that they can't tip. However, now my workhorse is a dedicated sheet good cutting area (track saw).

This isn't really the workflow I envisioned as I envisioned... Break down on grid -> Table saw / Radial Arm saw -> Assy / etc. Now I'm Storing -> Breaking Down -> TS / Radial Arm Saw not ready yet -> where to assemble? I think I assumed I would stack the sheet goods against the wall, but once the driver and I loaded them onto my sawhorse setup I wasn't particularly inclined to move around 3/4 BB on my lonesome. Not a big deal as once all the sheets are broken down I'll have my workbench back. Just more of that: clean this, convert this to that, move thing from here to there, store this, etc that keeps efficiency low / also ruins your groove.

In explaining why he bought a sliding table saw one cabinetmaker explained long ago, "Panel handling is the name of the game." If building boxes is part of your plan you need a way to efficiently bring sheetstock into the shop, store it compactly, get it into position for cutting, dice it up and machine the parts for system holes and assembly. Sensible investment calls for identifying the bottlenecks in your process and tackling them one by one. Right now your shop is bagged up for lack of a sensible way to store, move and cut material.

Many shops have gone to cnc routers for panel processing - sizing and boring can happen right on the machine in one shot. Many small shops use a slider - more handling effort but very versatile. Both those options need a good way to load material horizontally, whether it be a Crazy Horse dolly, forklift, vacuum gantry or what have you. Other shops use a vertical panel saw loaded from a stack of sheets on edge, gravity works with you but angles and bevels are hard. All these have one point in common, once a sheet goes on the saw it gets cut into usable parts w/o being transferred to another machine.

You'll find what works for your shop, finances and personal style. Point is, have a plan and work toward it. If your plan involves breaking down sheets with a tracksaw, don't load the cutting table with a stack that has to be moved before going forward.

[Jared Sankovich]

The porter cable 552 (its a castle tsm 10) or castle modified with a air clamp/foot pedal works very well.
https://youtu.be/P9Ba1AMH8hI
https://youtu.be/mIigw53WSKM

[Phillip Mitchell]

Methinks you need more tables and possible a dedicated plywood rack if you plan on having some inventory or not working through the sheet goods asap on a project.

There is a so much value in a couple of rolling 4x8 (or even ~3x7) tables on decent casters that have flat tops...these can be made from plywood and 2x. You can simply offload / store / stage and or put a sheet of foam down and do track saw break down quickly and easily. Having them on decent casters allows you to not have to commit to putting that huge stack of whatever it is “right there” and gives you a lot more flexibility in repositioning without having to restack.

I think you have the space to fit a couple of them at least and it can really improve workflow and options. You also should consider the height you build them at and consider matching existing table saw height or picking a standard that makes sense for you and if you have multiple you can put them together and have a much larger assembly surface that is not “permanent”.


I do think the pockets are the way to go. I just can't believe the prices Castle is asking. And that those machines are missing from used and auction sites.

The shaper is fine. I definitely did not take into consideration the amount of abuse it was subjected to. But... new main motor bearings, some simple re-wiring on the secondary motor, cleaning an old school switch, lots of generic cleaning (still have to figure out why the angle lead screw is so sticky), a chrome plated arbor, lots of moving effort, new electrical and I'm pretty much ready to go. It was / is a fun project and I enjoy learning the ins and outs of a machine. I still have to build a new wood fence for it. Unfortunate it didn't come with a nice steel / cast iron fence. That would have been awesome. I also need to figure out the burlap / cloth bag under the spindle that keeps all the dust above the moving parts. That is going to be critical for motor life. Also still need to have a new cable made for the spindle lock, but that is truly at the bottom of the list for me... probably a few hundred dollars. My biggest fear is that I'll have to do some major surgery at some point.. everything on that machine is so heavy that it will truly be a science project.

Speaking of that Griggio... Bob at Woodworking Tools told me he has a 3/4 shaft with that same taper. He would sell it to me for the cost to chrome plate it (seems like ~$250). I'm wondering if I should take it. I was already considering buying an arbor w/ a router collet later in the future after a few more jobs. This would kind of be an in-between... a 9 HP 3/4 arbor! Otherwise, I check the ads from time to time for a decent used 1 1/4 shaper.

I have the adapter for the 700 that lets you use smaller bits. You just have make your own / buy some plates to center the machine vertically on thin stock. Maybe someday I'll have both the 500 and 700. But considering how many toys.... tools I have planned for the future that one seems on the un-important side of things. My experience is that if you squish in the machine from the 'butt' of the tool it stays pretty flat. I imagine the 500 stays flat w/ a lot less effort.

My biggest ongoing effort is to figure out the shop flow. I just received $1700 in sheet goods and lumber. Lumber isn't a big deal to store, but sheet goods ended up on the saw horse table grid I made. That grid was supposed to be used for breaking down sheets. So I made some sacrificial supports for my workhorse workbench that straddle the top such that they can't tip. However, now my workhorse is a dedicated sheet good cutting area (track saw).

This isn't really the workflow I envisioned as I envisioned... Break down on grid -> Table saw / Radial Arm saw -> Assy / etc. Now I'm Storing -> Breaking Down -> TS / Radial Arm Saw not ready yet -> where to assemble? I think I assumed I would stack the sheet goods against the wall, but once the driver and I loaded them onto my sawhorse setup I wasn't particularly inclined to move around 3/4 BB on my lonesome. Not a big deal as once all the sheets are broken down I'll have my workbench back. Just more of that: clean this, convert this to that, move thing from here to there, store this, etc that keeps efficiency low / also ruins your groove.

Sorry in advance for the run on rambling. Feel like a poor man's Jack Kerouac at times.

[John Kananis]

Andrew, storing sheet goods (unless you have a giant shop) is always a royal PITA. I built a really nice, large cart that handles a few different sized sheets in sections and some lumber as well. Kept it in the back room for a while but it was always in the way and had to be moved constantly (it's on wheels) to get to one thing or another. I finally purchased a small trailer that's parked outside. I can drop open the back door of the trailer, roll open the shop door, lay the material on my breakdown/assembly table and the ts is right there and ready for the grunt work. My nice cart now lives in that trailer and there's room for all sorts of other cool stuff too, like templates, jigs, etc that you don't use too often but absolutely must keep.

[Kevin Jenness]

505870505871505872505873
I use a lateral parts cart to stage plywood on edge as it comes into the shop. The moveable stanchions are placed along the long sides and the cart is placed end on to the door with the wheels blocked and the material slid in on edge, then the cart is wheeled to an out of the way spot. I can get a couple dozen sheets of various thickness on and still move it myself. Sheets are slid off the cart endways to the floor, then rolled onto a Crazy Horse and onto the sliding table saw. The vertical plywood rack is for inventory. I couldn't operate efficiently without several carts for work in progress. No matter the size of the shop (mine is 1100 sq ft) organization is key.
https://shopcartsusa.com/Product-LateralPartsCart.php https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?295465-Crazy-Horse-dolly https://rehnen.com/en/panel-handling-cart-anton/

[andrew whicker]

In explaining why he bought a sliding table saw one cabinetmaker explained long ago, "Panel handling is the name of the game." If building boxes is part of your plan you need a way to efficiently bring sheetstock into the shop, store it compactly, get it into position for cutting, dice it up and machine the parts for system holes and assembly. Sensible investment calls for identifying the bottlenecks in your process and tackling them one by one. Right now your shop is bagged up for lack of a sensible way to store, move and cut material.

Many shops have gone to cnc routers for panel processing - sizing and boring can happen right on the machine in one shot. Many small shops use a slider - more handling effort but very versatile. Both those options need a good way to load material horizontally, whether it be a Crazy Horse dolly, forklift, vacuum gantry or what have you. Other shops use a vertical panel saw loaded from a stack of sheets on edge, gravity works with you but angles and bevels are hard. All these have one point in common, once a sheet goes on the saw it gets cut into usable parts w/o being transferred to another machine.

You'll find what works for your shop, finances and personal style. Point is, have a plan and work toward it. If your plan involves breaking down sheets with a tracksaw, don't load the cutting table with a stack that has to be moved before going forward.

What really happened is that I ended up having all my other sawhorses taken up from other projects. I've never heard of the crazy horse dolly. I like that concept a lot.

My longer term vision is to have a 20 ft container with doors on the long side and a forklift. This will be placed to the right of my garage door opening (https://mwcontainers.com/shop-2/20ft-containers/20ft-open-side-full-side-access-container/):

Unload lumber into container -> Fork lift sheet goods above / in front of break down method (slider, table for tracksaw, etc) -> slide off to the breakdown area and breakdown sheets -> RAS, then move on to other items.

Other items being drilling, dado'ing (RAS?), door stiles and rails, door hinges, etc. Right now, my TS isn't set up very well (no left hand support) so it is very hard for me to break down sheets (impossible except to assume bad cuts). It's also a relatively low HP TS (3 HP, 10 in blade) in terms of quickly breaking down lumber or sheet goods. But someday soon I need to find a permanent spot for it and build nice cabs around it (or get a bigger TS or slider to build cabs around). It currently sits on the long Delta roller system. I have a nice enough top on it, but it's not nearly as sturdy as it could be. It's also in bad spot flow wise, but if I can't use it to break down full sheets then I'm not going to move it in front of my garage door. I'm good at putting big stuff thru without too many bad cuts, but without left hand support it's impossible to handle a full sheet w/ confidence. I have rollers, but they are a pain and never seem to work very well. Maybe the crazy horse would be the easy / right now solution (or a roller table). I would much prefer a TS / Slider solution to breaking down sheets vs a track saw. The track saw is simply a stop gap method.

I had a big (for me) contract fall thru to the surprise of everyone involved. I'm recovering the best I can, but I had a lot of this vision figured out until the money went away. For now, I'm back to creatively figuring out the best method. This is a great forum and I'm very appreciative of everyone that responds (you, Phillip, Michael, Richard, Jeff, everybody).

CNC would be amazing, but for my shop that would require constructing a new garage door unless I had Garage door -> CNC which seems a bit silly for my one and only only garage door. And obviously there is a lot to owning a CNC (knowledge, software, etc) that is much more than it being a new tool with obvious switches, fences, and levers.

[andrew whicker]

Here is my shop as is.

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505889

505890

[Brad Schmid]

For pocket holes, Castle TSM 12 here as well. I was glad to retire all the Kreg and Sommerfeld stuff and improve quality of joint and eliminate misalignment due to hole angle.

[Scott Winners]

Andrew, can you come up with a simple overhead view of your shop and the major tools in it? Doesn't have to be to perfect scale, just do the best you can freehand.

There are a bunch of cabinet makers on here, they are all very helpful and I don't think there is an idiot in the bunch.

From looking at your pics I think, first impression, you do have enough room to do this, but you don't have enough space to be lazy or inefficient. I would think about selling one of my four kids to have that many sqft for what I do.