Hard maple purchase

[George Yetka]

I ordered 200 bf of hard maple as follows
-13/16 Prime HARD MAPLE KD S2S SLR1E RW RL

My problem was I assumed this would be perfect or near perfect finish, maybe needing sanding only. It came in with chatter on both sides across the entire lot. This is my first time buying non rough cut lumber. Do I return this or is this acceptable? The wood is other wise straight and square. My thought was a pass in the drum sander should smooth this right out as its not very deep.

[Jonathan Jung]

S2S means it was sent through a 2-sided planer. There can be some light marks / lines / tearout.. It's not a finished surface, so although sometimes it can look really good, I always have to plan on sanding.

If you want nearly finish ready, ask them how much to send through their wide belt sander.

[George Yetka]

S2S means it was sent through a 2-sided planer. There can be some light marks / lines / tearout.. It's not a finished surface, so although sometimes it can look really good, I always have to plan on sanding.

If you want nearly finish ready, ask them how much to send through their wide belt sander.


I assumed some sanding, just didnt expect that much chatter. Atlantic Plywood supplied it and they source it elsewhere so no hope of having them do it. I will run a board later this week to see what I lose on thickness.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Their supplier mill has - most likely - both top and bottom heads out of balance. Meaning one knife on the head weighs more than the others - by a fraction of a gram. Which is a lot at high-speed rotation, and will cause what you are seeing. [other possibilities like bearing failure, and on and on]

This is molder/planer 101. They flunked. No - it is not acceptable in my world. And both heads means they aren't paying any attention to their process, nor to the lame efforts in their tool room.

Did it [A] pass through Atlantic Ply's hands, or [B] ship direct?

A - they are both accountable; B -Atlantic Ply needs to know.

I'd talk to them. If A have them check a piece in their warehouse and get back to you.

Could I get you to put a ruler on a board and count the chatter marks per inch? Like counting TIP/PPI on a saw blade. I'm curious - this can indicate a second issue re: feed rate.

Either way - I think you been had. I buy finished stuff also, and get nothing but pristine surfaces. Including the HM I'm holding right now.

[Lee Schierer]

S2S means it was sent through a 2-sided planer. There can be some light marks / lines / tearout.. It's not a finished surface, so although sometimes it can look really good, I always have to plan on sanding.

If you want nearly finish ready, ask them how much to send through their wide belt sander.

S2S means it was surfaced on two sides, not necessarily a two head planer, though I would expect a production mill would probably have a 2 headed planer.

[Warren Lake]

I only buy rough but did look at material per surfaced at a higher end kitchen place. I dont see it other than the time saving advantages. Can you stick some photos in so we see it.

[Jeff Roltgen]

Surfaced means it's been planed enough to remove the sawtooth pattern and meet a specified rough thickness. Period. To expect ready to sand and assemble is completely out of the question, and the material you received is precisely what we all get, when ordering lumber in this fashion. They're just saving wear and tear on your planer and reducing your sawdust pile by reducing thickness closer to what you need.


Any arguments about poor machinery setup are irrelevant. These mills are slamming it out as fast as possible, so tear out, leftover waney/live edge losses are eaten by you, and you'll be laughed out of the building if you approach them with complaints and call outs about their poor machinery setup.

Let it acclimate for a week or two. You will see the "straight and square" features rapidly deteriorating as well.

What you received is completely normal. Not arguing it shouldn't be better, just saying, it's never going to be so.

There is an option if you want ready to sand sticks of lumber. Go to a local Home Center, find the boards sealed in plastic, and pay exorbitant sums of money for the privilege.

[Richard Coers]

Their supplier mill has - most likely - both top and bottom heads out of balance. Meaning one knife on the head weighs more than the others - by a fraction of a gram. Which is a lot at high-speed rotation, and will cause what you are seeing. [other possibilities like bearing failure, and on and on]

This is molder/planer 101. They flunked. No - it is not acceptable in my world. And both heads means they aren't paying any attention to their process, nor to the lame efforts in their tool room.

Did it [A] pass through Atlantic Ply's hands, or [B] ship direct?

A - they are both accountable; B -Atlantic Ply needs to know.

I'd talk to them. If A have them check a piece in their warehouse and get back to you.

Could I get you to put a ruler on a board and count the chatter marks per inch? Like counting TIP/PPI on a saw blade. I'm curious - this can indicate a second issue re: feed rate.

Either way - I think you been had. I buy finished stuff also, and get nothing but pristine surfaces. Including the HM I'm holding right now.
If the machine had both main heads out of balance you wouldn't want to stand next to it and the bearings would be damaged in short order. With no pictures, any conjecture of the cause is just that.

[Richard Coers]

I ordered 200 bf of hard maple as follows
-13/16 Prime HARD MAPLE KD S2S SLR1E RW RL

My problem was I assumed this would be perfect or near perfect finish, maybe needing sanding only. It came in with chatter on both sides across the entire lot. This is my first time buying non rough cut lumber. Do I return this or is this acceptable? The wood is other wise straight and square. My thought was a pass in the drum sander should smooth this right out as it's not very deep.
When I order from a mill, I order it skip dressed to 15/16 or 7/8" and then make the surface what I want. Your lesson here is that you should have asked either us or the supplier, just what you would get or be able to look at a piece of stock dressed that way. You can NEVER assume the mill or store will provide what you think is acceptable. It has never been like hand selecting stock by yourself. I've never seen prime as an accepted grading term, unless it was for beef.

[Warren Lake]

prime is a made up name has been here over 25 years amybe more. Its just spinal tap, 11 one more than 10. Always hand picked though very hard thing to pull off. Ill say from going through tons of lifts of prime that 20 to 25 percent at most is prime. The rest is all good but that amount or less consistently was the best stuff.

[Cameron Wood]

13/16" is so that it can be dressed to 3/4"

[Kent A Bathurst]

I've never seen prime as an accepted grading term.....


If you mean for hardwoods, I agree. As far as I know, it is not a grading term in hardwoods, or in most most species of softwoods.

It is most assuredly an accepted grading term in Southern Yellow Pine [SYP]. The creation of this grade was around 25 years ago +/-. The layman's definition: #2 grade with #1 wane. Used only for "dimensional lumber", which means 2x material in that world. Not boards [1x ] or timbers [4x and up].

It was started by the Big Box retailers - by far the most massive buyers of SYP - but they buy the vast majority as pressure treated. Their problem was Joe Consumer would sort out #2 PT that had "too much" wane, in the eyes of the consumer. Definitely on-grade. Definitely suitable for purpose. But once it hits the cull rack, it has no where to go, in practical retail terms.

And so - they twisted the collective arms of the major suppliers of PT SYP [there were maybe 5 or 6 then, consolidated to only 2 now], who in turn twisted the arms of the major suppliers of SYP. Dunno how many there were then or are now - moving target. I do know that the modest-sized and mom-and-pop "peckerwood' mills were on the sidelines during this.

The result was the new grade - #2 PRIME SYP.

Which caused a lot of angst and consternation in other industries - particularly manufactured roof trusses - but that's a different topic.

[Kent A Bathurst]

If the machine had both main heads out of balance you wouldn't want to stand next to it and the bearings would be damaged in short order. With no pictures, any conjecture of the cause is just that.

I'll pass on relitigating our previous adventure, Richard, and simply note that lights-out S4S production and low-volume custom milling often occurs on different equipment, which has much lower feed rates and different characteristics. Seen it happen, but not in "lights out" world.

Back to you.

[Richard Coers]

13/16" is so that it can be dressed to 3/4"
Sure, but is 1/32" per side going to be enough? That's why I ask for 7/8" or more.

[George Yetka]

505778

Hard to photograph, since I had never purchased this way, only rough. Just wanted to confirm it being normal before complaining. I wont be complaining its not bad. I will probably be hair under 3/4. Ill reserve the ones I can keep at 3/4 for doors and drawer fronts. I should have went 15/16

[Kent A Bathurst]

As long as you're happy. I can see the knife marks, but I don't know the scale. "Acceptable" in the world I lived in was 16 knife cuts per inch. Those look wider than that [meaning fewer than 16 per inch] which would mean they were running too fast for the head configuration, and likely had an out-of-balance situation to boot. But I can't tell dimensions from the cheap seats.

Before you order next time, it might be worthwhile to find out what their standard for finish quality is, so you know what to expect.

Hope it all turns out good for you.

[Cameron Wood]

That does look disappointing...

[George Yetka]

Duplicate post

[George Yetka]

As long as you're happy. I can see the knife marks, but I don't know the scale. "Acceptable" in the world I lived in was 16 knife cuts per inch. Those look wider than that [meaning fewer than 16 per inch] which would mean they were running too fast for the head configuration, and likely had an out-of-balance situation to boot. But I can't tell dimensions from the cheap seats.

Before you order next time, it might be worthwhile to find out what their standard for finish quality is, so you know what to expect.

Hope it all turns out good for you.

Board is about 6-7" wide there are 3 valleys an inch. Pretty consistant both sides for the entire 200 bf

[John Kananis]

Meh, send it back. Buy rough. Imho

[Phillip Mitchell]

I would not be happy with that; that is deeper and larger milling marks than what I would say is typical, but I think that really just depends.

I don't know if I would buy that type of product in general without explicitly asking to see a sample / standard first and have that understood and noted on the order somewhere. As it stands, I'm not sure you have much leverage to work with in asking for a refund and sending back, but you can try and see what happens.

[Brian Tymchak]

That's horrible. Return it, find a new source.

[George Yetka]

I would not be happy with that; that is deeper and larger milling marks than what I would say is typical, but I think that really just depends.

I don't know if I would buy that type of product in general without explicitly asking to see a sample / standard first and have that understood and noted on the order somewhere. As it stands, I'm not sure you have much leverage to work with in asking for a refund and sending back, but you can try and see what happens.

Problem with any of these big guys is there are no samples. The local branch is just a weigh station for local deliveries. I stopped at Wurth and asked to see, they also stocked nothing. I purchased ply here as well with issue, it was 3/4 columbia 1 side UV. The thicknesses were a bit all over the place. Some was traditional undersized 3/4 some of the sheets however were 1/16 fat making the dados suck. I had to make cuts to widen my dadoes

[Kent A Bathurst]

That's horrible. Return it, find a new source.

George, I 'd go with Brian here if it was me 3 knife cuts per inch versus standard 16 [for a proper appearance-grade finish] means any number of unacceptable practices at that planer mill. 6-knife head with only 3 knives in it and running more than 2x proper speed. Head out of balance, or worn bearings, or some of each. Who knows what else. They certainly did not give a goldarn about the product, that's for sure.

I'm not in your shoes, so I can't tell you the proper course of action. But alerting your supplier to the problems, and requiring for a partial refund to cover your time and expenses for rework - I'd have that conversation in a heartbeat. Very common discussion in the lumber bidness when there is a product problem.

[Andrew Hughes]

Something I’ve noticed the lumber yard I buy from has been stocking the lumber racks with boards that has a very corse sanded finish. I’ve talked to the lead guy about their procedure and been in the in-house sharpening room. The planers they run are so loud I couldn’t get within 50ft without ear protection. 6 knife 6 inch or bigger cutting circle. The knives they use are 5/32 and 1/14 thick really good Hss that we never see in 1/8 thick blades. I haven’t talked to Jim about the sanded boards I’m seeing in the racks. I wonder if it’s back up when a planer is down or the new normal?
I was concerned about the sanded lumber they are now offering there would be grit imbedded in the wood. So far so good I haven’t noticed and problems with my tooling dulling.
George I wonder how hard that maple you received is.
I had some that was very much hard as a Rock.
Good Luck

[George Yetka]

On the phone now they are picking it up for a full refund

[Kent A Bathurst]

....... the sanded boards I’m seeing in the racks. I wonder if it’s back up when a planer is down or the new normal?


That's interesting. I'd be interested in haring what you learn. I don't think there's a sanding process that could economically substitute for a planer. If its only a portion, maybe they had some that got weathered and they needed a refresh.

[Jim Becker]

Board is about 6-7" wide there are 3 valleys an inch. Pretty consistant both sides for the entire 200 bf
Sounds like it was run through the two sided machine at a very high rate of speed...

[Mel Fulks]

Good steel like T-1 or M-2 will give a pretty good surface . Many companies buy cheap steel and depend on sanding . Bad practice,
which dulls the steel . In all orders I always specified “no sanding”. A lot of planers used to be sold new with inferior knives. Retired
now ,and don’t know what is being pushed .

[George Yetka]

Next is a trip to Hearne for 4/4 rough and a bunch of milling.

[Jim Becker]

Next is a trip to Hearne for 4/4 rough and a bunch of milling.
See what Willard Bros (Trenton NJ) and Bucks County Hardwoods (Doylestown/Danboro PA) can do for you first...much closer. I go to Hearne for really special stuff, but for domestic common species, I have trouble justifying the travel. It's an hour and a half for me to Hearne. Then again, going to Hearne is a treat...an expensive treat 'cause you always see things you just HAVE to have. LOL :D

[Warren Lake]

got sent to several mills past in the us think hearne was one few of them had the logs all in sequence and you buy the whole thing. Another put me on the line boards passing to pick what I wanted then shipped up here to my lumber company.

[John Kananis]

Next is a trip to Hearne for 4/4 rough and a bunch of milling.

Its about an hour and a half ride from your location but Castner's in Stillwater is a great mill. Giant place but cash only.

[George Yetka]

See what Willard Bros (Trenton NJ) and Bucks County Hardwoods (Doylestown/Danboro PA) can do for you first...much closer. I go to Hearne for really special stuff, but for domestic common species, I have trouble justifying the travel. It's an hour and a half for me to Hearne. Then again, going to Hearne is a treat...an expensive treat 'cause you always see things you just HAVE to have. LOL :D


I have been unhappy with Willard brothers even though its 20 minutes away. There pricing is very high and wood isnt as nice as Hearne. My trips to Hearne have always been good Its a great trip early on a Saturday morning. Boards and beams in north Jersey is my backup. Boards and beams has been good to me. When I do go I buy in quantity so they give account pricing.

I have another week of boxes then Ill need that maple So ill probably make the run next week. Ill call in advance to see make sure its available.

Im a little scared of the smaller mills after a 2 bad stops without a meter. Promised they were dry only to find when I got home they were high and checked like crazy in the garage

[Mel Fulks]

George, I didn’t see anything about what you are using the maple for. It’s whiter than soft maple, but for strength in furniture both are
good. The “soft” maple has more figure. I see the hard maple as …vise material, or substitute for ivory !

[Alan Lightstone]

Next is a trip to Hearne for 4/4 rough and a bunch of milling.
That's what I always plan on doing. Then again, I don't have Hearne in driving distance. I actually enjoy the process, but then again, I'm not running a business.

[George Yetka]

George, I didn’t see anything about what you are using the maple for. It’s whiter than soft maple, but for strength in furniture both are
good. The “soft” maple has more figure. I see the hard maple as …vise material, or substitute for ivory !

Kitchen Cabinets. they will be painted so its for durability I chose HM

[George Yetka]

That's what I always plan on doing. Then again, I don't have Hearne in driving distance. I actually enjoy the process, but then again, I'm not running a business.

I dont do it for a living either so it is enjoyable time. I tried this pre milled to save my wife. She has to watch both young kids while im in the shop.

[Jim Becker]

For domestics that are not "special", you may actually like working with John and Morgan at Bucks County Hardwoods. Not as an alternative for what Hearne offers in huge selection and variety, but for convenience. They've been good to me and are, like Hearne, one of the suppliers to Nakashima. I agree that Willard Bros can be pricey, although I've managed to get 8/4 basswood from them for a very acceptable price...I like that for guitar body cores.

[Mike King]

Interesting. I never get a finish off of a planer that is acceptable -- they always have knife marks. Is my experience atypical? I always presume I will have to hand plane, scrape, or sand to get a quality surface.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Interesting. I never get a finish off of a planer that is acceptable -- they always have knife marks. Is my experience atypical? I always presume I will have to hand plane, scrape, or sand to get a quality surface.

Yeah, but nowhere near as bad as George showed in his photo. I can often start sanding off my planer at 150 grit. What he showed appeared like heavy and deep scallops that would require milling again, imo.

[Andrew Hughes]

Looks like feed mechanism problems to me. My powermatic planer had a wash board surface on one side when I first bought it. From what I remembered the tension mechanism on the out feed roller was hung up and not holding the stock down.
If it was a new guy running stock though that sick machine and allowed it to go out the door. I think that’s called apprentice marks. :)
Good Luck everyone