Not getting the sharpening quality I would like!

[Royce Meritt]

I have the Delta model GR250 variable speed grinder and the Wolverine grinding jig and Vari-Grind attachment. This set up has improved my sharpening considerably. However, I still do not seem to be getting the quality of sharpness to my lathe tools as I would like.

First of all, what do any of you recommend as far as grinding wheels are concerned? Secondly, what type of stone (or other implement) for honing? And thirdly, any particular tips to help me get the most out this set up? Thanks.

[Jim Becker]

AO wheels are a must...they will be white, blue or pink normally, although the Norton 3x are a greenish-white. My preference is 60 grit for "grinding/shaping" and 100 grit for sharpening/finishing. Some folks go with 80 and 120. I personally find the 120 wheel causes a lot more heat without a lot of gain in the "sharp" department and since I go back to the wheel frequently (with a very light touch), I don't worrry about honing, either. I do use a slip-stone on the inside of the gouge flutes if I see a bit of a bur, however.

[Dennis Peacock]

Mr. Becker has you headed in the right direction. I use Aluminum Oxide wheels, one is 80 grit and one 120 grit. No real problems here.

[Bernie Weishapl]

I use the same as Dennis and no problems.

[Dale Thompson]

Royce,
Add a fourth vote to Mr. Becker's advice. :) Honing is a waste of time except for using a slip stone to remove the inside burr on your bowl gouges. The "light touch" suggested may be the key to your dissatisfaction. ;) :)

Remember, in most cases you are "sharpening". You are NOT "grinding"! :)

The grinding wheel preferences have already been documented. :)

Good luck!

Dale T.

[Andy Hoyt]

To take the above comments a step deeper into your pocketbook you might want to investigate Oneway's Precision Balancing System and their Dressing Jig.

The balancing system did wonders for my crummy Ryobi grinder. Don't have the Dressing Jig yet, but I've seen what it does and was most impressed.

[Bruce Shiverdecker]

One other thing I can suggest, if you don't already have it, is the Oneway DVD. They will send it to you free. All you have to do is call them up and request the "Wolverine Turning DVD."

Bruce

[Corey Hallagan]

I bought the Woodcraft slow speed grinder and it has the 80 and 120 grits on it. I do find after last night when I did some sharpening that the 120 gets hot and stays hot.
Last night was my first real sharpening night. I can sharpen the heck out of a skew but I wrecked 2 spindle gouges. One is a great yard dart now. But my Kansan buddy Bernie pulled me back in and slapped me straight and I am looking forward to the next round :) I will stick with PSI stuff until I get these gouges figured out. I did good on the roughing gouges as well. Just them damn spindle gouges!!

Corey

[Andy Hoyt]

Light touch Corey. Light Touch.

And a little less effort on the tip than on the sides will prevent pointy spindle gouges. That's was my early experience.

[Corey Hallagan]

Thanks Andy! I just tried to do so much had good sucess with the skews and roughers and got cocky with the spindle gouges. Also, I find that the pen sized tools are a real pain to sharpen due t their shortness and the parting tools hang up on the grinding shelf. Lessons learned!

Corey

[Michael Stafford]

Light touch Corey. Light Touch.

And a little less effort on the tip than on the sides will prevent pointy spindle gouges. That's was my early experience.


You are so correct Andy. You are not grinding a new shape most of the time so you just barely touch the steel to the wheel and remove a little steel. It shouldn't take long to touch up an edge. When using the Wolverine jig it is essential to make sure your setup with the tool matches the previous bevel or you will be doing just that regrinding the bevel each time you sharpen. That is costly because you will be sending expensive high speed steel down the drain.

I do not hone anything except my skew and my spindle gouges. Both of them I want sharp. In between sharpenings you can touch up an edge with a diamond hone and extend the time before the next trip to the grinder.

I think you will get as many opinions on sharpening as there are turners. Take your time and lighten up on the wheel and everything else will be all right.

[Royce Meritt]

Thanks for the suggestions, everyone. I'll take a bit of all of this advice and keep working at it. I think my sharpening skills, like everything else, is just something I have to keep working at until I get it figured out. Your advice will help a lot. Thanks again.

[Steve Hayes]

What are ao wheels and is there a jig for drill bits?

[Jim Becker]

What are ao wheels

Aluminum Oxide...usually white, but sometimes pink or light blue. Norton's 3x premium AO wheels are a greenish-white. These wheels are designed for friability (they shed particles and will keep metal build-up down) and cooler running.

[Dave Wimmer]

I am currently using a Tormek. It is great for flat tools, but I don't like it for turning tools. I've ordered a slow speed grinder and will probably go to the Woodcut Tru-Grind system. I prefer it to the Wolverine.

[Charles Harper]

I agree with the comment about the Woodcraft slow speed grinder. Good machine, and came with 60 & 120 AO wheels that would have about $60 otherwise. I got mine just before Xmas for something like $79 on sale.

[Dale Thompson]

Also, I find that the pen sized tools are a real pain to sharpen due t their shortness and the parting tools hang up on the grinding shelf. Lessons learned! Corey

Corey,
Hang the "pen-sized tools" up on the wall in a nice neat row and forget about them. ;) That's what I have done with mine. They are "cute" and will impress your "non-turner" shop visitors!

The fact is, there is virtually NOTHING that you can do with them that you can't do with a full-size tool! ;) Their small mass guarantees TWO major problems: Their "heat sink" capability is too small to dissipate anything but the "softest" sharpening touch; They are too light to absorb "chatter" with anything but the "lightest" touch. If you want to spend an hour turning a pen that may not be a problem. Five to ten minutes with full-size tools should be in the normal range. :cool: ;) :)

Dale T.

[Dale Thompson]

To take the above comments a step deeper into your pocketbook you might want to investigate Oneway's Precision Balancing System and their Dressing Jig.

The balancing system did wonders for my crummy Ryobi grinder. Don't have the Dressing Jig yet, but I've seen what it does and was most impressed.


Andy,
I'm just questioning your expertise on the subject of "balance" or "balancing". ;)

Does the disappearance of your "second" face have anything to do with acquiring a more "balanced" mind, personality, point of view, charisma, mental stability, etc.? :confused:

I only ask this question for one reason: Instead of spending all that money on "balancing" stuff, why didn't you just replace your, "crummy" grinder? :confused: :)

Does it have anything to do with the fact that folks from the "Arctic" belt of our country are exposed to the fact that brain cells freeze far more rapidly than water? :confused: ;) :D Ask someone who KNOWS!!! :o :)

Dale T.

[Andy Hoyt]

Andy,
I'm just questioning your expertise on the subject of "balance" or "balancing". ;)

Does the disappearance of your "second" face have anything to do with acquiring a more "balanced" mind, personality, point of view, charisma, mental stability, etc.? :confused:

I only ask this question for one reason: Instead of spending all that money on "balancing" stuff, why didn't you just replace your, "crummy" grinder? :confused: :)

Does it have anything to do with the fact that folks from the "Arctic" belt of our country are exposed to the fact that brain cells freeze far more rapidly than water? :confused: ;) :D Ask someone who KNOWS!!! :o :)

Dale T.

My expertise on the subject of balance stems from a 1971 cross country trip in a 1963 VW named Balance the Bus. There were any number of levels of influence to which this name had application back then. During that trip we detoured into Beloit, Cheeseland for a few nights in the city jail. Any and all excess brain cells stayed right there.

[Steven Wilson]

Besides AO wheels and a light touch using a slip stone on the inside of your gouges is usefull (especially if you're reshaping) and honing the skew is a good idea if you're taking very delicate cuts. I like to use a Shapton bench stone for honing the skew. I use a Woodcraft slow speed grinder and Wolverine jig setup because members of my turning club all use that setup and it makes it easier if I'm turning at a friends house. Normally I use a Tormek setup; just like it better, but both ways work well.

[Dale Thompson]

we detoured into Beloit, Cheeseland for a few nights in the city jail. Any and all excess brain cells stayed right there.

Andy,
We HAD you and let you get away??!! :confused: :mad: :o :D The Police Chief must have been a northwoods Norwegian! :eek: ;) :)

Dale T.

[Richard Allen]

What they all said. PLUS:

Join the AAW and they will send you a sharpening vedio. There are a lot of great tips in that vedio.

Use a magic marker on the bevel to insure you are setting your jigs properly.

Last use magnification and a bright point source light to inspect the edge.

Good Luck

Richard

[Jeff Farris]

I am currently using a Tormek. It is great for flat tools, but I don't like it for turning tools. I've ordered a slow speed grinder and will probably go to the Woodcut Tru-Grind system. I prefer it to the Wolverine.

Dave, I would like to discuss your comment. I will preface my comments by telling everyone who doesn't already know or who doesn't want to take the time to look at my profile, that I make my living by selling TORMEK systems. If you have had problems with your TORMEK I would like to help you work through them. I have been sharpening turning tools for 15 years, and truly believe that there is no better way than the TORMEK. That is said as a firmly held belief, not sales hype.

The documentation attempts to be thorough, but a few things are lost in translation and some stuff that I personally do differs slightly from the factory recommendations. Maybe the difficulties you have encountered can be solved with a little discussion. I feel that you will find the Tru-Grind to be rather awkward in your hands compared to the TORMEK jigs and the finish on the steel from a dry grinder simply cannot be compared to that achieved by the TORMEK.

[Corey Hallagan]

Dale, I found that to be very true, prior to even trying to sharpen. My favorite pen roughing tool is a 7/8 roughing gouge with a 19 handle and then my 3/4 oval skew for smoothing. I definitely like the long handled tools. So I bought more! Besides that, i am 6' 1 and 280 lbs and those little tools felt like those mini screw drivers in my hands. Besides, I had a pen size gouge and a parting tool, I turned them into yard darts pretty much :) Here is the kicker, I waisted 30.00 on that 3 piece mini set. I got a 4 piece full sized spindle gouge set ( Benj Best) for 36.00. doesn't seem right!

Corey

[Dale Thompson]

I feel that you will find the Tru-Grind to be rather awkward in your hands compared to the TORMEK jigs and the finish on the steel from a dry grinder simply cannot be compared to that achieved by the TORMEK.

Jeff,
I don't think that anyone on this Forum doubts the quality and accuracy of the TORMEK SYSTEM! The fact is, however, that the pros like Raffan, Rowley, Stott, etc., nomally use GRAY wheels to achieve their genius. :confused:

With regard to us turners, we don't seem to have the need for "razor sharp" chisels. In addition, we are not willing to spend the "perceived" extra time to get a "razor edge" when we believe that it will be "knocked off" almost instantaneously when exposed to some of our harder woods.

I've done some "Product Reviews" in the past. The fact is that they were done in my other hobby of 1:32 Scale Slot Car Racing. If you want to PM me, I can give you some references and assure you that my "services" are free! The only consideration is that I get to keep the "used" product. :) You will get an honest, black/white opinion from a former R&D Engineering Manager. If you want to keep the "Review" open, that is fine with me. If you want to ask certain questions, I will answer them - no punches withheld! :) Potential publication will be YOUR decision! :D

Dale T.

[Jeff Farris]

Jeff,
I don't think that anyone on this Forum doubts the quality and accuracy of the TORMEK SYSTEM! The fact is, however, that the pros like Raffan, Rowley, Stott, etc., nomally use GRAY wheels to achieve their genius. :confused:

Rowley, unfortunately, is no longer with us, but he loved the edge I put on his tools when he visited me. Raffan will discuss using the TORMEK in his next book and video. He loves the radius ground oval skew produced by the SVS-50 and the TORMEK.



With regard to us turners, we don't seem to have the need for "razor sharp" chisels. In addition, we are not willing to spend the "perceived" extra time to get a "razor edge" when we believe that it will be "knocked off" almost instantaneously when exposed to some of our harder woods.

You do need razor sharp chisels, you just don't know it ---- yet. Let's just apply a little logic and some fundamental physics. Imagine looking at a ground edge under a microscope. The edge looks like the teeth of a handsaw. The coarser the "teeth" are, the easier it is for the wood to break them off -- longer tooth means something grabbing the end has more leverage with which to break it off at the connecting point. You may "believe" that the razor edge won't last longer, but you can be -- and have been -- proven wrong in both real world and laboratory conditions. The finer the scratches from the grinding process, the longer the edge lasts.

Further, despite the common argument that HSS does not lose its temper when heated, the fact is that it becomes brittle. This is made worse by the widespread but misinformed practice of dipping HSS tools in water when they have been ground long enough to get hot. Not only is the edge brittle, but if you look at it with magnification, you can see that the cutting edge consists mainly of globs of steel that have congealed from a molten state. A dry ground edge, even when done by a master sharpener, cannot match the TORMEK edge for quality, consistency or tool life.

As for extra time, that is a myth perpetuated by the internet and folks who can't follow directions. If you will learn to use the system the way it is designed, there is no better, easier, faster or more accurate way to sharpen turning tools than the TORMEK. That comment isn't meant to be harsh, and it is not directed at anyone in particular. The system is different from what everyone else does, and it has some peculiarities that require you to do things "our way" to get the results we promise.

As for your last paragraph, you sure were trying hard to get something you claim that you don't need. :D

[Dennis Peacock]

Further, despite the common argument that HSS does not lose its temper when heated, the fact is that it becomes brittle. This is made worse by the widespread but misinformed practice of dipping HSS tools in water when they have been ground long enough to get hot. Not only is the edge brittle, but if you look at it with magnification, you can see that the cutting edge consists mainly of globs of steel that have congealed from a molten state. A dry ground edge, even when done by a master sharpener, cannot match the TORMEK edge for quality, consistency or tool life.


Finally..!!!!!!!!!!!! Somebody that has explained to me why my cutting edges on my turning tools cut better and last longer coming off my Tormek than off my grinder.!!!! And I just "thought" I was going crazy.:rolleyes: :D

[Glenn Clabo]

Jeff,
I don't want to...and will not get into an argument with anyone over the internet. It just doesn't pay...and it's true that many things are lost without expression...but overcoming peoples original bias toward what they are sure about (mostly opinion read over the internet these days) is almost impossible.

So FWIW...I spent the first month of my All-Around Machinists Apprenticeship at GE... sharpening tools...mostly by hand. I was mentored (tortured?) by some very experienced and smart people...who made their living cutting metal who did not fool with making mistakes.

To update my younger years experience I now have access to some of the smartest and most experienced metallurgists, machinists, and metal workers in the US...and maybe the world. Although it's in a different context...We can't make mistakes in the business I'm in...without many people dying.

All that said...and the reason I said it? I agree with you and have discussed these very things with the people around me. Although I don't make a living at working wood and really didn't need the advantage of a Tormek...but I bought one based on information...not opinion. I have noticed that all my tools edges last longer...and as I get used to sharpening with the Tormek...I am getting closer to completing the process as fast as "dry" grinding but always with better edges.

p.s. - I'm very interested in learning about better ways of sharpening with the Tormek. Please feel free to educate us old dogs.

[Dave Wimmer]

Jeff, I have sent you an off forum message about my problems with the Tormek for tuning tools. If you can help it would be appreciated.

[Glenn Hodges]

Ditto on the AO wheels. I have a white and pink, don't know the grit, but probably around 80. The tools are not sharpened so they will shave but if you look under a lens they will have a serrated edge. This type of an edge will really cut, remember the serratedd knife blade? I never take the time to hone my edges either. I use the slow grinder and the Woverine jig.

[Jeff Farris]

Jeff, I have sent you an off forum message about my problems with the Tormek for tuning tools. If you can help it would be appreciated.


Dave, I certainly hope this won't embarass you, but answering privately negates the inherent beauty of a bulletin board. There are others out there struggling with the same issues you are, and we might as well deal with them in the open so everyone can benefit.

First, let's deal with your issue of truing the grindstone. It reads like you are moving the cutter too quickly across the stone. Locate the lowest point on the grindstone, set the diamond tip flat at that point (adjusting the Universal Tool Support up and down to get the tip flat), lock the Universal Tool Support and then put the indexing bar tight against the back of the cutter handle. You have now set the diamond so that it will cut everything down to the lowest existing point. Now, from one side or the other, turn the machine on, hold the cutter handle tight against the index bar and move across the stone at a slow pace. If you leave a scratch, stop, back up and go over that area again. You should be able to get a fairly acceptable surface from the diamond tip, but if not, clean it up with the stone grader (coarse side) afterwards. The key is the feed rate going across the stone.

I want to address your issues on fingernail grinds, but I am in a hotel room getting ready for the St. Louis Woodworking Show. I will give you -- and everyone else -- a detailed response tonight after the show.

[Dave Wimmer]

Jeff, No embarressment here, was just trying to avoid bad mouthing your product in front of the group. I have tried to do exactly what you described and with little success. As I mentioned to you there is only one diamond contacting the stone. It takes about 45 minutes or more to flatten the stone in this manner. I'm pretty much of the opinion that the tip is defective. The reason I did'nt return it was that after purchaceing the unit I moved and didn't start turning again or using it for about three years, actually forgot about it!. I thought is was a little late to ask for replacement and tried to make do. I will look forward to your help on the other items when you are again able to respond.

[Ken Fitzgerald]

And Dave and Jeff.....that's what I like about the Creek! We can disagree and discuss without flaming each other! It's called a civil disagreement!

[Jeff Farris]

Jeff, No embarressment here, was just trying to avoid bad mouthing your product in front of the group. I have tried to do exactly what you described and with little success. As I mentioned to you there is only one diamond contacting the stone. It takes about 45 minutes or more to flatten the stone in this manner. I'm pretty much of the opinion that the tip is defective. The reason I did'nt return it was that after purchaceing the unit I moved and didn't start turning again or using it for about three years, actually forgot about it!. I thought is was a little late to ask for replacement and tried to make do. I will look forward to your help on the other items when you are again able to respond.

Real quick, before I walk out the door, try loosening the big set screw that holds the diamond tip in place and turning the tip 90 degrees. That will set up a different pattern that may work easier. The bronze tip is full of diamonds -- sort of like nuts in Jell-o. As a nib gets dull its resistance to cutting overcomes the hold of the bronze and it sloughs off, creating a new pattern. Sometimes these patterns are less effective than others. By turning the tip you may get a better pattern or you may get the offending tip to slough off.

Even if the stone is badly out of round or dished, it should take no more than a couple of minutes to true the wheel. I wish you had come to the Atlanta Woodworking Show a couple weeks ago -- we could have worked through this "Hands On".

[Dale Thompson]

As for your last paragraph, you sure were trying hard to get something you claim that you don't need. :D

Hey Jeff,
You can't blame me for TRYING! :) If I was adverse to "try, try again", I would never get ANYTHING out of my shop! :o ;) :D

Thanks for a lot of VERY interesting information!! :)

Dale T.

[Mike Ramsey]

I don't know if it has been covered in this thread or others about
balancing...WHY do we need to balance a NEW wheel!!!! Especially
on a brand new grinder?? I purchased a new slow speed grinder
from WC and the 120 wheel was way out of balance :confused: , and
the fix for that I'm told is buy a balancing system! Why do we
have to buy a system to balance a wheel that should have been
balanced at the factory! :confused: . Would we buy a new car or truck
with the front wheels wobbling and pay to balance it ourselves!!??
I don't think anyone would.....So I guess we let them get away
with it and they make even more money by selling us something
to fix poor manufacturing on their end!!!
Bout to bust!! Been holding this in to long!! :( :( :( :p

[Dave Wimmer]

Jeff, I wish I had gone to the Atlanta show, and tried to do it with my tip.
Look forword to hearing more from you.
Dave

[Jeff Farris]

OK, let's take a look at grinding side grinds and finger nail grinds on the TORMEK.

When Dave told me privately that he was grooving his stone every time he ground his gouges, I immediately suspected that he was not carefully controlling the three control points necessary to repeat a shape. Some mangling of the stone is expected when reshaping a tool, but once the tool is properly shaped, resharpening should take just a few seconds and have virtually no effect on the stone shape or size.

First, you have to control the protrusion of the tool from the front of the jig. You can't guess, and you can't "eyeball". You need a repeatable method of measuring how far the tool sticks out the front of the jig. The easiest and most reliable way to do this is to make the stop block guide shown in the Owner's Handbook. It is basically just a piece of thin plywood with a stop glued 2.5 inches from the edge and a small piece glued to the bottom to give it a hook to catch the edge of your workbench, making it easier to use. Drilling a hole in a block of wood may be quicker, but crud builds up in the end of the hole, changing the dimension.

The next step is to set the angle between the axis of rotation and the tool. The larger the angle, the longer the grind will come back down the side of the tool. For a spindle gouge, I would use either a "2" or "3". For a bowl gouge my personal favorite is a "4". Some folks think they need a longer edge -- but then I see a lot of them cutting with the front 1/4 inch. The key here is to either remember or record the setting and use the same one every time you sharpen the tool.

Finally, you have to set the position of the Universal Tool Support which sets the primary bevel angle. For bowl gouges this should be between 45 and 60 degrees. I know a lot of folks use 45, but I think that is too long. I like 55. Once you have an angle that you like, measure the space between the grindstone and the UTS and cut a block that just fits. Then, setting the angle is no more complicated than catching the spacer block between the UTS and the stone.

If you hit these three settings the same way every time, you'll get the same shape every time, in just a few seconds, with almost no stone wear.

[Andy Hoyt]

This continues to be a highly interesting thread.

Jeff Farris - Thanks for stepping in with your expertise, and I now have a request for you. Given your knowledge of the grinder/sharpening world I'd enjoy reading your response to Mike Ramsey's observation a post or two up.

Some comments about normal two-wheel $100 to $400 grinders; along with how they're engineered, spec'd, and marketed would be enlightening. Same holds true for the every day grinding wheels - be they gray, white, pink or blue. I'm guessing you know your competition well enough.

Feel free to include the TORMEK concept in the discussion for comparative purposes. Reading your posts, you appear informed enough to do this without it turning into a sales pitch. However, I'm not so much interested in the end-result advantages of TORMEK over a regular grinder as I am in understanding the engineering and spec'ing differences.

I ask, because like many others out here, my grinder gives me headaches and I need to improve that; but the notion of spending $400-plus is a tough nut to absorb. Were I to make that plunge I'd prefer to do so based on solid information that does not require huge doses of rationalization

Thanks.

If this is out of bounds for you on ethical grounds I will understand.

[Jeff Farris]

Andy, that is one big can of worms that you have asked me to open.

My knowledge of dry grinding is pretty limited. At one time, I sold Norton wheels and learned quite a bit about the specifications and how to read the "code". That was years ago, and too much water under the bridge. I have a tough time accepting that Chinese stones are compounded to the same exacting standards of porosity, grain size, and bond strength that Norton and other North American and European companies adhere to. That may be an unfounded bias, but I need someone to prove me wrong before I will change that opinion.

I wrote and deleted a message in reply to Mike earlier this evening. I decided that even my sanitized version was more controversial than I should be here. The double sanitized and triple filtered version is, "You get what you pay for". Now, that is not completely fair, because I have sold Norton wheels for about half of what Mike paid for his grinder and wheels (8" diameter 1" wide Norton ALOX are about 35 or 40, aren't they?) that were not as well balanced as they should be.

The unvarnished truth is that Chinese tools (and any "bargain" tools, wherever they're made) are designed to sell, not to work. If it turns on and spins and the wheels don't fly apart, then it is ready for market. You can't really expect a grinder that sells for under a hundred dollars to have 70 or 80 dollars worth of grindstone on them, and for those stones to be balanced, can you?

One more comment on this, before I call it quits for tonight. Balancing without truing the wheel is completely and totally ineffective. When I sold Norton and Oneway I would not sell a customer a balancing kit unless he already had the truing tool. If you balance a wheel that is out of round, your grinder will run really smooth, but your stone won't cut smoothly. Also, you will almost surely wear the stone even more in the low spot, taking the wheel out of balance again and causing much head scratching and chin rubbing.

There was a point around 1997 or so that I was selling Baldor grinders, Norton wheels, and Oneway grinding accessories side-by-side with TORMEK. When it dawned on me that the dry system that I was selling was just as expensive (or more if you went 8 inch) as a TORMEK -- and that you could not sharpen anything except turning tools -- and that an inexperienced hand was just as likely to burn a tool with this rig as he was with a 69 dollar WalMart grinder -- and that the TORMEK jigs were more sophisticated in design and easier to use -- I closed out the dry grinder line, focused my business on spreading the gospel of TORMEK, and I have never looked back.

[Glenn Clabo]

.WHY do we need to balance a NEW wheel!!!! Especially
on a brand new grinder?? I purchased a new slow speed grinder
from WC and the 120 wheel was way out of balance :confused: , and
the fix for that I'm told is buy a balancing system! Why do we
have to buy a system to balance a wheel that should have been
balanced at the factory! :confused: . Would we buy a new car or truck
with the front wheels wobbling and pay to balance it ourselves!!??
I don't think anyone would.....So I guess we let them get away
with it and they make even more money by selling us something
to fix poor manufacturing on their end!!!
Bout to bust!! Been holding this in to long!! :( :( :( :p

Mike,
I'll try to answer this without getting your blood pressure up...again.;) If you or anyone else who is reading this are happy with what you are using...stop here cuz this may get long...and even though I REALLY will try not to...it may sound preachy.

The answer to your question is and always will be...cost. You may be frustrated by what you bought...but in fact Mike what happened...my friend (?) you paid for a machine/wheels that are "cheaper" than what you really wanted. Like many things nowadays...we are all sometimes suckered into buying based on price.

As I said before...I have access to some very smart people and a quick synopsis of my most recent conversation started with this fact...
The codes on grinding wheels have a clear meaning and all tell the grit type, grit size, wheel hardness, bond, etc. However....we should all know that there is no standard throughout grinding wheel makers. (http://www.georgiagrindingwheel.com/grindingwheels_basics.htm#Top)What does that mean? Well it means that you really can't tell, between companies, how one wheels color or code will sharpen your tools. If we realize that, we will better understand that what these companies are selling us is based on price vs capability. Not only are the wheels on your WC grinder made with cheaper material...they simple don't go through the expense of truing and balancing...because it would drive the price up beyond the next grinder on the shelf. Ask yourself...which one would you have bought...thinking they were going to do the same thing? Cheaper bench grinders have cheaper wheels...can't get away from it.

Grinding metal is a science. The affect of heat, material, bonding, speed, etc does mean something on all material. The result of grinding/heating HSS is not what "most" people think is...it's what they are willing to accept. Most companies in the sharpening business spend lots of money on getting things right...and once that happens they insist on it being consistent.

Hence...my choice to use a Tormek "system". When you buy it...or when you get replacement parts for it...you know what you get. The dry wheels I would want to buy...now that I've done all this research...would all come from the same company...and cost as much... or more and can't do everything I want to do. Even my chefs knifes are WAY sharper and last longer now that the Tormek is in the house.

Hope I didn't put you to sleep...or get your BP up. Just trying to pass on what I've learned.

[Glenn Clabo]

Ditto on the AO wheels. I have a white and pink, don't know the grit, but probably around 80. The tools are not sharpened so they will shave but if you look under a lens they will have a serrated edge. This type of an edge will really cut, remember the serrated knife blade? I never take the time to hone my edges either. I use the slow grinder and the Wolverine jig.

Glenn...Nice name...and nice work/website.

I'm not trying to change your mind...you seem to be happy with what you do and how you do it...but ;) ... Serrated knives are used because they have more "sharp" surface to cut with...not because they are course. A dull serrated knife...just has more dull surface. Think of it in terms of a saw...which has to be sharpened also...it's all the "sharp" surfaces" that do the cutting. The smoother (less space between metal particles) the cutting surface has the better it cuts.