VFD or Phase Converter for 3 phase jointer planer combo?

[Sean Moore]

Im going to be picking up a used 3 phase Felder AD941 jointer planer combo and only have single phase power in my shop. Ive read alot about the different options, but want some real world feedback on what is the best route to go with to get the machine powered up. It is a 4kw/5.3hp three phase motor.

Is a VFD the best bet, or a rotary phase converter?

Thanks in advance!

[Bill Dufour]

A vfd can give you soft start in case your amperage is low for 5.53 Hp. You can even run it on a 3hp vfd if you do not have enough power to run it. I would guess 30 amp/240 volt or more single phase.
Do you have 50 amps or more into your shop to cover the planer/dc/lights all at once.
Bill D

[Sean Moore]

The machine has an electronic control for the height of the planer bed, is there any downside to running that with a lower powered vfd?

[Richard Coers]

The machine has an electronic control for the height of the planer bed, is there any downside to running that with a lower powered vfd?
Check the name plate on the motor and also check the wiring diagram. Not unusual for a single phase motor for that. VFDs for 5.5hp motors get really pricey.

[Greg Quenneville]

You might want to join and check the files section of the Felder User's group. I cannot recall the considerations with your machine as mine are older than that.

Before getting three phase installed I had both rotary phase converters and vfd powered J/P machines and found the VFD powered (3hp) machine was lacking in power.

One possibility is that spending now for a phase converter opens the door for future used industrial machine upgrades.

Greg

[Greg Quenneville]

I had another thought about your machine:

You can use a VFD, but I wouldn’t underrate it. As it is 5.5 hp isn't crazy powerful on a 16” planer. If you go with a VFD you will have to provide single phase to the power drive controls, possibly via a transformer. The actual rise/fall motor is DC and that sub-system uses single phase power and converts it. I would contact Felder for the correct voltages needed for the rise/fall.

Greg

[Alan Lightstone]

I've found that electronic height control great on my Felder planer, but finicky as it has been blowing its fuses lately. Cost me an unnecessary repair/motor replacement instead of a $3 fuse.

I wouldn't underrate the VFD. Mine is through an amply powered Phase Perfect, and I still had those issues.

[Mike King]

The machine has an electronic control for the height of the planer bed, is there any downside to running that with a lower powered vfd?

I'm no expert, but I recall reading that a typical VFD isn't compatible with the complex electronics in a machine, particularly the Felder machines. I'd also highly suggest that you ask this question in the Felder Owners Group (https://groups.io/g/felderownersgroup). An option that I know will work is to go with a solid state phase converter from Phase Perfect and there's a current thread in the the group on those options.

Mike

[Erik Loza]

What Mike said ^^^

To the OP: You will need either a rotary converter or a Phase Perfect. Hope this helps.

Erik

[Phillip Mitchell]

There is probably a way to wire a VFD (or multiple VFDs) to do what you’re wanting regarding controlling the bed rise and fall (or maybe that part could be single phase and is being phase converted internally already ?) but it’s not straightforward like using a VFD for a single motor and bypassing onboard machine controls. I would use an RPC or phase perfect and consider going larger than 5 hp capacity so you can take advantage of it for future 3 phase machines that may be available.

[Alex Zeller]

If it's in your budget I would opt for a slightly oversize rotary/ phase perfect over a VFD. Unless you are positive that you will never own a second 3 phase machine down the road I would rather be ready. Switching a VFD from machine to machine is not easy. Where as you put outlets near each piece of equipment as needed wired to the phase converter. You just can't run two machines at once unless your rotary can handle the load of both machines.

[Warren Lake]

ive run five machines off a roto at once to try it and see amps. Not underload I only have two hands. Total amps was way lower than it would have added up, there is a ballast effect I dont know about or understand and seen little info on it. they somehow help each other. 10 HP Roto.

[Bill Dufour]

Many add a big disk sander or dust collector three phase motors as extra idler motors. You can use a tablesaw that way as well but make sure the blade is down.
Bill D

[Steve Clardy]

I have an unused rotary sitting here now. I've sold all my 3ph machines, the semiauto lathe was the last to go.
This converter would run the lathe, it having a 2hp and a 3hp motor, plus a 3ph collector.

I've never used a VDF setup.

[Mike King]

There is probably a way to wire a VFD (or multiple VFDs) to do what you’re wanting regarding controlling the bed rise and fall (or maybe that part could be single phase and is being phase converted internally already ?) but it’s not straightforward like using a VFD for a single motor and bypassing onboard machine controls. I would use an RPC or phase perfect and consider going larger than 5 hp capacity so you can take advantage of it for future 3 phase machines that may be available.

purportedly it is very complex for a Felder not because of the two motors, but because of all of the other electronics. @Erik Loza was a rep for Felder; he knows these machines; he was a rep also for another major Italian machinery company; take his advice. Do screw this up; buy what will make this machine sing. Cry once.

Mike

[roger wiegand]

When I researched this for my MiniMax J/P I found that there was enough concern expressed about the electronics working properly with a VFD that I went with a RPC. Aside from being annoyingly loud the American Rotary model I got has been perfect. They were great to work with. The model they recommended for my 7.5 hp machine has a 20hp idler motor and required a 60A breaker, so that's a consideration if you're light on power.

[Jim Becker]

Erik has already stated that using a VFD isn't in the cards for this Felder Machine. He knows the product, having sold many of them.

[Christopher Charles]

I researched a similar question for a minimax J/P with similar specs but with no electronic controls before finding a used single phase machine. Jack Fosberg quoted ~$1200 for the two VFDs needed to run the main motor and feed motor for the 16" minimax. After much research and hand-wringing, my conclusion was that VFDs make sense for smaller single motor machines (like drill presses). I would look into the phase perfect, which is about $1,800, but is quiet if you can afford.

[Warren Lake]

my 10Hp roto was over 2,000.00 probably 30 plus years ago.

[Kevin Jenness]

I have about $600 in a used 10hp 3 phase motor and distribution panel and a starter panel from WNY supply. That setup supplies a 5 hp planer and compressor and a 6+ hp slide saw. Vfds make more sense for smaller motors that need speed control. I have them on an exhaust fan, edge sander and lathe, all 3 hp or less.

[ray grundhoefer]

A vfd can control 2 motors at the same time but they both have to start and stop at the same time. Also electronic controls of any kind are a BIG NONO, motors only

I also would not recommend downsizing a vfd or phase convertor. I have seen people argue this point on here many times however as an electrician for 45 years I can tell you devices have a horsepower and amperage for a reason

[Warren Lake]

depends who builds the roto. Always read 20 HP roto for a 10 HP motor, not true depends on the manufacturer of the roto and what they have put in it.

[Rod Sheridan]

Erik has already stated that using a VFD isn't in the cards for this Felder Machine. He knows the product, having sold many of them.

That’s not quite correct Jim.

I recently helped an American user with a new AD941.

I helped him convert the machine to a VFD, what you do is continue to run all the control and electronics from the single phase input.

The VFD is configured to run the machine motor, accepting the run signal from the existing motor contactor.

It keeps all the safety and stop start functions from the existing machine.

Regards, Rod.

[Mike King]

That’s not quite correct Jim.

I recently helped an American user with a new AD941.

I helped him convert the machine to a VFD, what you do is continue to run all the control and electronics from the single phase input.

The VFD is configured to run the machine motor, accepting the run signal from the existing motor contactor.

It keeps all the safety and stop start functions from the existing machine.

Regards, Rod.

Good luck on getting tech support for that from Felder.

Mike

[Jeff Roltgen]

I am in the phase converter camp. VFD's are regularly spoken of lately as a substitute, presumably as a cheaper way to get the job done. If you know you will never buy another machine in this lifetime, okay, I get it, and I'd research the VFD option a bit.
Otherwise, I'm reinforcing a previous statement from another post - once you get that 3 phase issue resolved, a huge door opens for other machines of the grade you just purchased. Once you get a taste of that level of performance with this machine, you will want to stay at that level as more acquisitions come into view = more 3 phase gear.
Betting by the time you horse around with VFD's on 2 or more machines, you're not saving much over simply getting a robust phase convertor as a once and done solution.

I had to swap out an older rotary to digital when I got my Felder machine, as the rotary output was not within tolerances required by the new shaper, and no local electricians were trained/proficient at balancing the output to suit. This meant I could have fried it and had no warranty. This is not the time to be cheating and shortcutting the power delivery system when implementing modern equipment and all it's delicate intricacies. This ain't your grandpa's 2 wire table saw.

Bottom line: If you're likely to grow and continue upgrading your shop with machines of this caliber, the wisest step is to get the 3 phase issue covered now, albeit painful.