Secret Mitre Dovetails (no more secret)

[Haitham Jaber]

Hi,

Today I was cutting some secret mitre dovetails and I recalled an old Christopher Schwarz video on building a Shaker side table. What I love about Schwarz is his respect for the old cabinetmaker's techniques and for the tradition in general, inherent to a preindustrial era and before, when working by hand was an everyday reality.

In the above mentioned video he explains how in old furniture it wasn't unusual to see half blind dovetails cut pass the line of the stock thickness, to make it easier to chop out the waste, because more fibers would have been already severed by the elongated cuts. Usually these elongated cuts where hidden in the inside of drawers, of course.

Even if it took me days to prepare this mahogany, I decided to honour this technique. Of course the secret dovetails are no more secret but, I love reitarating the tradition in my furniture.

What do you think about this choice? Would you do the same and sacrifice the perfecion of a hidden secret mitre dovetail or half blind dovetail for the sake of easing out the work and giving a traditional imprint to
it?

Personally, I'm happy I made this choice.

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Cheers,
Haisam

[Eric Brown]

Really, don't worry about what others think. As long as you are happy then that's enough. It looks good so far. I hope you post the finished results.

[steven c newman]

IF you can find it, The Woodwright's Shop has a show all about dovetails, including a how-to on how to lay out and cut secret/hidden dovetails

[Derek Cohen]

Hi,

Today I was cutting some secret mitre dovetails and I recalled an old Christopher Schwarz video on building a Shaker side table. What I love about Schwarz is his respect for the old cabinetmaker's techniques and for the tradition in general, inherent to a preindustrial era and before, when working by hand was an everyday reality.

In the above mentioned video he explains how in old furniture it wasn't unusual to see half blind dovetails cut pass the line of the stock thickness, to make it easier to chop out the waste, because more fibers would have been already severed by the elongated cuts. Usually these elongated cuts where hidden in the inside of drawers, of course.

Even if it took me days to prepare this mahogany, I decided to honour this technique. Of course the secret dovetails are no more secret but, I love reitarating the tradition in my furniture.

What do you think about this choice? Would you do the same and sacrifice the perfecion of a hidden secret mitre dovetail or half blind dovetail for the sake of easing out the work and giving a traditional imprint to
it?

Personally, I'm happy I made this choice.

503705

Cheers,
Haisam

Hi Haisam

Good to see you posting about joinery. I will comment on two of your remarks.

Firstly, the overcutting was done for speed. I would not call it a tradition. Some like to copy what others have done without examining the intent, and think that all old must be the procedure of choice. The back of the drawer front is not a place where most examine for quality of workmanship, and the overcuts were done with this in mind. Using them is not traditional, but a decision whether you are comfortable with this level of work. Personally, since I am not a professional churning out drawers for a living, as a hobbiest I have the time and desire to do it right. So no deliberate overcutting for me. The overcuts you see on my works are just my usual sloppy self.

Secondly, well-cut joinery is a pleasure to see being used. The trouble is that well-executed joinery is often invisible. Any joinery which is essentially three dimensional, that is, requires two planes to come together simultaneously, is a big deal in my book. The difficult joints in this area are secret mitred dovetails and mitred through dovetails … because the addition of a mitre takes them to another level. I rate the latter more highly since all the joins are visible.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

My understanding was the fully blind dovetails would over cut one tail in a joint so anyone repairing the furniture in the future would know how the joint went together.

On half blind dovetails it is neater to use a piece of broken saw blade or even a kerf maker:

503725

This allows taking the kerf all the way to the base line without having to saw deeper into the work. It really speeds up waste removal.

jtk

[Mel Fulks]

I think I “ learned “ how to do the secret dovetails from a Hayward book. The small test piece worked . Then , satisfied with my
work and initiation to the “secrets” I moved on . I’d have to read it again to make another one.

[Haitham Jaber]

Thank you for your interest.
Thank you Derek for sharing your thoughts and experience as well. What is the book that you wrote you're referring to?
I'm glad that you appreciate my intent of sharing my thoughts and ideas on joinery.
There's so much involved in traditional joinery... so much respect for the wood as a living material.

Anyway one of the reasons why I decided to elongate the cuts is to ease the work as I have just a few days left for completing the project
and this mahogany kept moving and moving week after week. But I also like to discover the way people used to work and workaround in the past.
Also cutting a shallow rabbet on the end grain freehanding with a shoulder plane was an experience, even if a bit sweaty

The steps I followed are of Mitch Peacock, but Hayward books are excellent. If I feel confident I will post the end results, anyway

[Eric Brown]

I will disagree with Derek when he say's "the right way". He is referring to himself. Obviously I have a different opinion. The purpose of a joint is to hold two pieces together. Now anytime you modify the traditional through dovetail, you are also making the joint weaker. Usually the weakness is minimal but it is there none the less. So you are trading some strength to make the joint prettier. So what is the "right way"? Whatever works. Only time can tell you if it was successful or not.

To avoid the extra saw cut either takes time or power tools. Most people won't notice the difference.

[steven c newman]

Now you see them..

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Now you don't...
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Chris Schwarz, while showing Roy Underhill about how Campaign Furniture was made, showed how to make this joint....

Long ago, this sort of box would have been sold at The Army & Navy Store...as an Officer's "Toilet"...containing all the items needed to shave and make himself presentable on Parade every morning. And hide money and other such items...
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[Haitham Jaber]

I know this can be an intricate argument but, as I said, I like to see how things were done in the past and would have been glad to have places here in Italy where I could analize old furniture. Unfortunately, we don't have that strong english tradition. Thanks Eric for sharing your kind opinion.

I decided to put here the results of my first Secret Joints. I know there is some spelching, also aided by those extra saw cuts, but we see how it goes, and also is on the underside and as Schwarz says... only the bugs on the floor will see it. Mahogany is tough and not predictable like beech, though

503746

[steven c newman]

IF you can find a "Putty Knife with a stiff ( non-flexible) blade the same thickness as your dovetail saw....you can use that as a way to get into the back corners of a dovetail joint..
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Do NOT add any bevel to the blade's edges, as that will act as a wedge...a nice blunt, square edge will work just fine...drive drive the "Kerf Tool" straight down, using the dovetail saw's kerf to guide you...
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No over-cuts needed...
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[Derek Cohen]

Kerfing chisels ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/MakeKerfingChisel2_html_m4e7c2ff3.jpg

Make your own: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/MakeKerfingChisel2.html

No over cutting needed.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Edward Weber]

I agree with Derek, the overcut is just that, an overcut. It's a byproduct of haste in churning out joints (that won't be easily seen) as quickly as possible.
Not everything that's old is good or on purpose, I would politely suggest looking at more sources.
This may interest you
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajG26AP6Ub0
and this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XP9OIefC8s

[Eric Brown]

Kerfing chisels ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/MakeKerfingChisel2_html_m4e7c2ff3.jpg

Make your own: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/MakeKerfingChisel2.html

No over cutting needed.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Overcutting is faster and you don't need additional tools. It does not effect strength.

[Jim Koepke]

Overcutting is faster and you don't need additional tools. It does not effect strength.

However, it makes the joint look sloppy and less professionally done.

It also creates space for insects to invade and lay eggs. DAMHINT!

I am almost never in a race to finish a project.

jtk

[Eric Brown]

However, it makes the joint look sloppy and less professionally done.

It also creates space for insects to invade and lay eggs. DAMHINT!

I am almost never in a race to finish a project.

jtk

Yes, but without evidence how do you determine if the joint was cut by hand or machine? I prefer evidence.

[steven c newman]

I prefer not. Over-cuts are more a sign of someone being in a hurry....

I seem to recall a video from Japan, showing how they cut a mitered "secret" dovetail joint...where the corners of a cabinet met up...

YMMV..

Kerf Chisels: Depends on what price point YOU can afford....the one I use cost $1.....again, unless someone is trying to SELL you one......

[Edward Weber]

Yes, but without evidence how do you determine if the joint was cut by hand or machine? I prefer evidence.
I understand your opinion but it did make me laugh.

A dovetail is first and foremost a mechanical strength joint, not for aesthetics.
I many cultures, the elites who purchased the furniture did not want to see how it was made, that's for commoners. There are many examples of dovetails being covered over with ornate veneers.
As I linked to in the videos, many Asian cultures wanted the strength with a clean look also, this hidden joinery was later adopted by other cultures.
As the craftsman in the Williamsburg video says, dovetails were as common as mud, no one cared about seeing them until the machinery revolution started to take hold. As some quality started to go down, (glues and staples) people again wanted to see how things were made so they didn't buy an inferior product.
Anyone who's been woodworking for about a day and a half, automatically pulls out a drawer to see how it's made.
This was not always the case.

[Haitham Jaber]

Thank you all.

I've seen the kerfing saw method with Rob Cosman but I never applied it. I have some spring steel sheets aside, different thicknesses.
As I'll have some remainings, after using it to build a couple of saws, I can use the scratch to make a small kerfing blade.
For now, if I want to make a clean work, I'm perfectly ok with chiseling back and forth and nibble slowly the non-sawn part of the joint.
At the end of the day, now I'm in a rush... but woodworking is, for me, therapeutic

Ah... David Charlesworth made a dedicated DVD about this joint. Peace to his soul.

[Jim Koepke]

Yes, but without evidence how do you determine if the joint was cut by hand or machine? I prefer evidence.

From an earlier post:


My understanding was the fully blind dovetails would over cut one tail in a joint so anyone repairing the furniture in the future would know how the joint went together.


As far as knowing the difference between whether a piece was done by hand or machine, one might have to decide if that is an important factor in their decision to purchase or not.

Then you can do something like this drawer:

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That drawer could be knocked apart fairly easy since it was never glued. It has been in use for almost a decade now.

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?211707

A professionally made kerf starter is a nice tool to have. They are easy to make from a broken saw blade. If my memory is working Tage Frid used a piece of broken band saw blade with the teeth filed off. 

jtk

[Haitham Jaber]

Is it possible to plane the assembled piece once glue has cured?
I would do it from the outside to the inside but I don't know
if I risk to splinter the miters.

Also is possible, always after assembled, to stratch stock a side bead on the edges?

[Eric Brown]

Is it possible to plane the assembled piece once glue has cured?
I would do it from the outside to the inside but I don't know
if I risk to splinter the miters.

Also is possible, always after assembled, to stratch stock a side bead on the edges?

If the box has an open side you can put a board on your bench overhanging the edge and then hang the box on it to do your planing. That will take the pressure off the joint.

[Haitham Jaber]

If the box has an open side you can put a board on your bench overhanging the edge and then hang the box on it to do your planing. That will take the pressure off the joint.

Thank you very much Eric!