All Stones (apology to Julie Driscoll)

[Derek Cohen]

(Julie Driscoll: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGjS9nJ2Y80&ab_channel=StavrosZanos )

Rather than add this here-and-there to existing threads, I shall offer up this information in a new thread.

These are the waterstones I have and use. Starting with my sharpening bench...

https://i.postimg.cc/1m5M700P/Sharpening-bench.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Almost all the stones are epoxied to either glass or perspex for extra stiffness and protection against breakage.


I have essentially three "sets" of stones.

The one used almost all of the time comprises a Sigma Power Ceramic 13000, Sigma Power Ceramic 6000, and Shapton Pro 1000.

https://i.postimg.cc/cdyhGG7F/Stones-Favourite.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

I believe that these are still being sold. Here are the boxes for the Sigmas I have: 1200/13000 combination (a gift from Stu Tierney, and only the 13K has been used), 6000 and 10000.

https://i.postimg.cc/xYZggzXD/Sigma-boxes.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

The second set I have comprise the Shapton Pro 1000/5000/8000/12000. Only the 1000 is used regularly, and I pulled out the 12000 today for the first time in years.

The Shapton Pros were the first “expensive” stones I owned, and I must have purchased them about 20 or so years ago. I loved the 1000, and as seen it remains my preferred 1000 stone (it cuts faster than the Sigma 1200, but this is not apples vs apples). I hated the 5000. It would glaze over quickly and stop cutting. All the Shapton Pros, except the 1000, will create a great deal of stiction, and they must be used with soapy water to prevent this. The 8000 is a good stone, and the only reason I stopped using it was being gifted the 12000 (also known as the 15000 - same stone). Lastly, all my Pros wound up being epoxied to glass as they moved (cupped) after they dried. The addition of glass stopped this happening.

Here is the Shapton 12000 alongside the Sigma 13000 ...

https://i.postimg.cc/CY5mjNLs/Sigma-13-K-Shapton-Pro12-K.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

The Sigma is almost used up - it was only a "half" stone to start with. I will definitely get another. The 13000 has been a wonderful polisher to use. It offers good feedback, works quickly, and leaves a great edge. The Shapton Pro 12000 feels very different. It is harder, slicker, and offers less feedback. Still, it will create an excellent edge, comparable to the Sigma (I was honing PM-V11 chisels today as I worked on a set of Jarrah table legs).

Below are three stones: Sigma Power Ceramic 10000, Chinese Guanxi natural waterstone, and the Shapton Pro 1000

https://i.postimg.cc/ZJ8cTsV4/Sigma10-K-Guanxi-10-K-Shapton-Pro-1-K.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

The Sigma 10000 is a good stone, but does not get used much since I have the 13000. As I mentioned, Stu gifted me the 13K about 15 years or so ago, after I purchased the 10K, which was before the 13K was available. The Guanxi is an interesting beast - very hard, and it reminds me in so many ways of the Shapton Pro 12000. It also leaves a very fine polish.

The third "set" is principally used when away from the workshop, where I have water and a sink. This is waterless system for demonstrations at clubs and wood shows. The system comprises a worn Eze-lap 600 diamond stone, and Spyderco Medium and Extra-Fine ceramic stones.

https://i.postimg.cc/xnb5Z1mk/Spyderco-Medium-Extra-Fine.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

I recall Stu mentioning that the Sigma Power ceramic stones were essentially the same as the Spyderco stones, but the Sigma are more porous, friable and cut faster.

Spyderco do not advertise their grits. I estimate that the Medium is around 5000, and the Extra-Fine around 10000. These stones can be used without water, but I never recommend any media used without something to carry away swarf. Stones tend to load up otherwise. I suggest a spritz of soapy water. Not much is needed for the Spydercos. The main downside of these stones is that they do need to be flattened when new. You will need an extra coarse diamond stone for this. The HUGE pro is that once flat they do not need to be flattened, possibly ever again! I ran a diamond stone over these two today for the first time in a couple of years, and all it did was clean them. Flat, flat. The other downside is that they are only available in 2"x8". However this is not an issue if you predominantly freehand sharpen, as I do.

I have two diamond stones for maintaining these waterstones: a rather well-used and close-to expiring Shapton 275 grit, and an Atoma 140 grit.

I do have a bunch of diamond stones, but they are not used for planes or chisels.

Lastly ... I revamped the waterstone board today. The board is a melamine-covered chipboard, well-sealed. The waterstones are held within a "L-shaped" section from a nylon cutting board, and secured by a section of UHMW which can be clamped down ...

https://i.postimg.cc/547ghHpz/Board1.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/qrj1hY07/Board2.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Hope this helps some of you.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Christopher Charles]

Thanks for sharing Derek. Interesting to hear of the Shaptons warping. I have a set (1000, 5000, 12000), also from Stu, also about 10 years old. Notably, I bought them over the Sigma Powers because I wanted stones that could be used without soaking and could freeze (which it used to do on occasion in my old shop). The 5000 is definitely the stickiest, but overall they've done me great and I'm without want (in other words, I've managed to avoid going down the slippery slope).

I like the new waterstone board and have a similar step.

Best,
Chris

[Ned Mcbee]

Thanks for the roundup Derek. I've seen your posts on sharpening tech both on your website and across the internet, always informative and instructive.



The one used almost all of the time comprises a Sigma Power Ceramic 13000, Sigma Power Ceramic 6000, and Shapton Pro 1000.
I believe that these are still being sold.
Derek

Regarding the 6,000 Sigma Power Ceramic: do you - or anyone else - know where it's sold? My understanding is that it's been unavailable for a many years and thus is effectively defunct, replaced with the Sigma Power Select II 6,000 which is a stone of different composition and performance.

[David Zor]

Thanks for sharing Derek. Like Christopher I use the 1k, 5k and 12k Shaptons. I use an Atoma diamond plate for flattening and haven’t noticed any warping. How thick were yours when you noticed warping? Fairly warn down or like new?

I certainly notice the stickiness of them (especially the 5k as Christopher noted) and hadn’t thought about adding a bit of soap to my spray bottle. Thanks for the tip!

Here’s my simple setup. I just use the cases the stones came in to elevate them a bit. It’s not refined, but it certainly works.

503916

[Derek Cohen]

David, report back on your experience using a spritz of soapy water.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Greg Parrish]

I'm using the cases in the same way on my Shapton's David. Seems to work okay. I also store mine in the case which has vent holes on the bottom. Not sure if that helps or hurts quite honestly. However, like you mentioned, I've noticed that my 5k stone has a good bit of stiction and I also feel like the Shapton stones wear easily and require a good bit of flattening during use. Maybe just my stones but it seems like they require a lot of maintenance.



Thanks for sharing Derek. Like Christopher I use the 1k, 5k and 12k Shaptons. I use an Atoma diamond plate for flattening and haven’t noticed any warping. How thick were yours when you noticed warping? Fairly warn down or like new?

I certainly notice the stickiness of them (especially the 5k as Christopher noted) and hadn’t thought about adding a bit of soap to my spray bottle. Thanks for the tip!

Here’s my simple setup. I just use the cases the stones came in to elevate them a bit. It’s not refined, but it certainly works.

503916

[Derek Cohen]

Thanks for the roundup Derek. I've seen your posts on sharpening tech both on your website and across the internet, always informative and instructive.



Regarding the 6,000 Sigma Power Ceramic: do you - or anyone else - know where it's sold? My understanding is that it's been unavailable for a many years and thus is effectively defunct, replaced with the Sigma Power Select II 6,000 which is a stone of different composition and performance.

I provided links in my post.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Allen1010]

Thanks Derek for the very valuable info on such a confusing and important topic. Note on the Spyderco stones: if you do any teaching these are great because Students can't really gouge them. You can guess how I've come to appreciate that quality!!

[Derek Cohen]

That is a good point, Mike. The Spyderco are at the other end of the hardness spectrum from the King stones I started out with.

It would be helpful for Buyers to have a chart which breaks down stones into not just cost, but characteristics. There are not many who can do this. I have a smaller experience of waterstones than many imagine. The ones above have been my total expense for about 20 years.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Ned Mcbee]

I provided links in my post.


The only link I see is to a YouTube video (music).

?

[Derek Cohen]

The only link I see is to a YouTube video (music).

?

It is a music video :)

The moment I began thinking of a title for the thread, and “all stones” popped into my vacuum, I was reminded of Julie Driscoll singing “All Blues”, an album I loved in the 70’s (and still love today). An amazing blues singer in the UK … still doing so.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Thomas McCurnin]

Ah... I read that post and it of course reminded me of Brian Auger, whom I am a big fan and he still plays at my local watering hole in North Hollywood. Of course his famous band, Brian Auger and the Bolivian Excess.

[Dave Zellers]

I too have a Shapton 5000 and the stiction that comes with it. I bought a 4000 Nagura (couldn't find a 5) and it has helped a lot. In 15 seconds, it cleans the surface and leaves a nice slurry. The stiction returns but the more I use the Nagura the longer the sessions can last. I have had a few experiences where the 5000 performed beautifully without stiction after building up a nice slurry I also use a couple drops of detergent in my water bottle.

[Derek Cohen]

Ah... I read that post and it of course reminded me of Brian Auger, whom I am a big fan and he still plays at my local watering hole in North Hollywood. Of course his famous band, Brian Auger and the Bolivian Excess.

Thanks Thomas. I will look up Brian's latest backing band. The Julie Driscoll link was with The Trinity. The album I have from the late 60s is "Streetnoise", which is simply wonderful. I see it is now on sale for $400-500! :eek:

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Bob Jones 5443]

Very nice set, Derek.

As mine are purely for my personal use — I don’t teach — I’ve always just used Nortons, which max out at 8000. But soft, yes. I know they would gouge easily if I dug in with a blade corner.

I started with the dual-grit set: 200/1000 and 4000/8000. Once I got down to a nub on the 1000, I bought a King 1000. Nice and thick; should take me the distance. Someday I might buy a full 8000 stone, but it’s used so gently it might never wear down.

I suppose I’ll never know a blade polished to 13000. Maybe if I take to making small boxes?

[David Zor]

David, report back on your experience using a spritz of soapy water.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek,

I put a few sprays of Simple Green concentrate into my spray bottle of water and haven't noticed much difference in how much the irons tend to suction cup themselves to the stone. On this fill-up of the spray bottle a added just a couple drops of dish soap for another test. Time will tell if there's a noticeable change. I should note that the suction only really only occurs when working on flattening or polishing the back of an iron. Since flattening an iron or back of a chisel only happens with a new tool, an old tool being restored or repairing a damaged tool it's not much of a concern.

[Derek Cohen]

David, is Simple Green a liquid soap? The green liquid I know is a grease/grime remover, but I have not noticed it having a “soapie” feel.

The other point is that most stiction I would experience comes when working the back of the blade .. not to flatten it, but to remove a wire from sharpening the bevel. I freehand on a bevel, so that is not going to be subject to stiction.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Zor]

Derek,

I’m in the same boat as for working the back of the iron to remove the burr, but since that’s typically 1-3 passes on the fine stone it’s not something that concerns me. And yes, I reckon we’re talking about the same Simple Green. I know people that use it on waterstones, and I have it handy in the shop, so it was my first trial additive.

[Frederick Skelly]

Thanks Derek!

[Scott Winners]

Derek, Simple Green in the USA is a very mild detergent, a soap. It was, back in the day, approved by all the relevant agencies for cleaning the inside of scuba tanks, so folks going way deeper than typical recreational limits on cocktailed gasses could breathe off the tanks with a couple rinses of distilled water and no measurable health effects. Hard to find (ish) but USA team orange home stores still carry it. I use Simple Green on my diamond stones (~50:50 with distilled water) and plan to continue.

The other thing for Americans to notice here is Derek works with a LOT of Jarrah. Jarrah has almost 200% of the stiffness we in the US can find in hard maple, and Jarrah also has about +20% of the ultimate failure strength we in the US can find in red and white oak. Remember in the US 'oak bends but doesn't break?' Jarrah doesn't bend and doesn't break. Jarrah is a bad dude on the streets, if you don't mind my saying so.

Derek is basically working brass ingots or granite blocks, with hand tools for wood. While his findings are certainly baseline for Australia, this is I think, is more of an exceeds expectations sort of plan for most folks in North America working with 'domestic hardwoods.'

I work mostly in White Oak, Hickory and American Beech and am comfortable applying finish to most of my production 'off the iron' sharpened to 8k diamond with no sanding. However, as I advance (however slowly), as I look for a little 'more,' Derek is way ahead of me on the curve.

Do you need a 50k waterstone today to make a decent cutting board? No. Is pushing your hand tool skills to use less and less sand paper a worthy goal? Yes, I think so.

You be you. Follow your own path. Is there such a thing as 'too sharp?' No.

God bless you Derek. Thanks for being one of our pathfinders.

[Derek Cohen]

Thanks Scott.

You realise that you are taking advise from a daft bugger who works with granite believing it to be wood? You must be even madder than me :D

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Warren Mickley]

The other thing for Americans to notice here is Derek works with a LOT of Jarrah. Jarrah has almost 200% of the stiffness we in the US can find in hard maple, and Jarrah also has about +20% of the ultimate failure strength we in the US can find in red and white oak. Remember in the US 'oak bends but doesn't break?' Jarrah doesn't bend and doesn't break. Jarrah is a bad dude on the streets, if you don't mind my saying so.

Derek is basically working brass ingots or granite blocks, with hand tools for wood. While his findings are certainly baseline for Australia, this is I think, is more of an exceeds expectations sort of plan for most folks in North America working with 'domestic hardwoods.'
.

It sounds like you have never worked jarrah. It is within the range of hardness for hickories; the pignut hickories are somewhat harder. And we have harder stuff that grows here in Pennsylvania.