Recommendations for a 6,000+/- Synthetic Water Stone?

[Ned Mcbee]

I've been intending to upgrade my 1980s era King water stones for 2 or 3 years. A few weeks ago I passed by a local Japanese restaurant & home supplies store which had a comprehensive sharpening section including two stones on my short list: the Sigma Select II #13000 (on close out sale) and the Shapton Pro #1000. I got both. I've not used them yet.

I want to acquire a 6000 +/- grit honing stone that will compliment and work well with them. When I was researching this many woodworkers sung the praises of the Sigma Power #6000 stone as being an exceptional stone for it’s grit range (a stone with speckled appearance but no longer made and a different animal from the Sigma Select II series stones) but that enthusiasm was not extended to the newer Sigma Select II 6000. I want a synthetic water stone that’s easy to use preferably without a lot of soaking and easy to maintain (splash and go would be great), that doesn't dish easily, and hopefully one that has decent feedback and pairs well with the stones above.

This will be my primary honing stone used for hand tool woodworking blades, plane blades seeing the most use, followed by chisels, etc. My blades are PMV-11, A2, and vintage Stanley/Record steel. Nothing exotic. These stones will likely get used for some knives as well hopefully including my Wusthof Classic kitchen knives (chromium-molybdenum-vanadium, Rockwell hardness of 58) ... my old 1980s King synthetic water stones are very soft so in order to prevent gouging, wear, and effort of flattening them after use, I’ll often just sharpen knives on diamond plates that I have. I've no experience with newer synthetic water stones so have no idea how they'll perform and how easily they dish compared with my older kit.

I don't want to fall much further down the rabbit hole. Unless I'm delusional, after choosing a honing stone I'm hoping to more or less close out my accounts with sharpening (excepting for slip stones, a set of DMT pocket diamond hones that were stolen on a recent camping trip, and a bench grinder). Sharpening - along with work holding - were weak links in my hand tool usage and without a convenient, accessible, and repeatable system in place I'd always delay sharpening. A Lie Nielsen honing guide and home made protrusion jig along with a larger range of better quality tools (good riddance to the distorted dogs from ebay!), and better work holding has transformed my woodworking. My old water stones live in a water container and I still have no dedicated sharpening area so everything needs to be trotted out to make a big mess in the kitchen sink (apartment), cleaned after each individual sharpening action, and put back in storage: terribly inconvenient but that's my limitation.


Other stones I have are:

-1980's King Synthetic Water Stones 6,000 grit + Nagura Stone & 1,000 grit.

-1980's King Synthetic Water Combo Stone 6,000/1,000 grit (smaller, often used in situation when stone could get gouged during sharpening).
-Ultrasharp Diamond Plates 300/600/1200. My Paul Seller's sharpening solution. Got these a few years ago when I was focusing on taking my hand tool skills to the next level and acquired my first premium plane (wish I'd done this decades ago instead of struggling with stuff like bannana soled Stanley #4 for decades). Speed and lack of mess (no need to use kitchen sink or flatten the stones) is fantastic but I prefer the feedback of the water stones. Often I'll use these for sharpening quickly without all the fuss as no sink is required and for knives which can easily gouge my King stones.
-1980's 220 coarse Synthetic Stone (Matsunaga). One of those cheap green stones Used to remove knicks. I don't like the stone very much and would like to find a better course stone solution.
-Granite Surface Plate. Can use with sandpaper of film, I haven't used this too much except for trying to reshape the bevel of a Record #5-1/2 blade with 3M film. Hard going. Need something coarser. I've never owned a bench grinder.

Any suggestions for a 6000+/- honing stone?
Thanks for any suggestions!

[Andrew Hughes]

I recommend the Shapton pro stone.
The yellow one 12,000 grit its what I use for a polishing stone. The one con is you will need something to flatten or freshen up the surface to cut well. + Keeping it flat is helpful to cut the wire off the back of the plane blade.
A diamond plate with deep groves is best.
Good Luck

[Tom M King]

I'm most fond of the Sigma stones because I'm mostly a feel sharpener and not only do they cut fast, but still give the feel. I have alternating grits between Power and Select II, and the difference is not enough to matter. If you're only going to get one stone, I'd just go to the 10k from the 6k that you have. I wouldn't want to be without the 13k for my use though.

[Keegan Shields]

+1 on the Shapton pros. I have the 8k and 12k. Both are great. I think the higher grits will last a lifetime. Most of my wear and tear is on my 1k Shapton and diamond plates.

[Charles ThompsonWA]

I previously had a Norton set, and my biggest complaint was the frequency of sharpening followed by the soaking. I've found the Shapton Pro set to be excellent and resolved both issues. Now I keep my stones in my shop, spritz some water on to sharpen, and flatten them every once in a while. Well worth the cost. I can't say if the sigma stones are better or worse, but I seem to remember hearing positive things. IIRC, the Sigma stones were pricey, but the Shapton Pro stones were available grey market import for much less, so I went with them. That may no longer be true.

[Ned Mcbee]

I'm most fond of the Sigma stones because I'm mostly a feel sharpener and not only do they cut fast, but still give the feel. I have alternating grits between Power and Select II, and the difference is not enough to matter. If you're only going to get one stone, I'd just go to the 10k from the 6k that you have. I wouldn't want to be without the 13k for my use though.

As mentioned in my post I've not yet acquired a 6K+/- stone (I have a 1980s 6k King stone that I'm looking to replace, the reason for my post is to gain a recommendation for one that will fit well between the two stones I just got. The store had Sigma Select II in both 10k and 13k on sale for roughly $50/60 and I opted for the 13k as a polishing stone. Hope it's not too fine and too far a jump from a 6K +/- honing stone).

[Ned Mcbee]

I recommend the Shapton pro stone.
The yellow one 12,000 grit its what I use for a polishing stone. The one con is you will need something to flatten or freshen up the surface to cut well. + Keeping it flat is helpful to cut the wire off the back of the plane blade.
A diamond plate with deep groves is best.
Good Luck

As mentioned in my OP I've already acquired a polishing stone: a 13k Sigma Select II.
I'm looking for a honing stone (6k+/-) as the second step in a 3 stone/grit system, following a 1k Shapton Pro.

[Ned Mcbee]

I recommend the Shapton pro stone.
The yellow one 12,000 grit its what I use for a polishing stone. The one con is you will need something to flatten or freshen up the surface to cut well. + Keeping it flat is helpful to cut the wire off the back of the plane blade.
A diamond plate with deep groves is best.
Good Luck


As mentioned in my OP I've already acquired a polishing stone: a 13k Sigma Select II.
I'm looking for a honing stone (6k+/-) as the second step in a 3 stone/grit system, following a 1k Shapton Pro.

PS: I only have a coarse inexpensive diamond plate (I think it's approx 300g.) that I use for water stone flattening. I haven't considered it but I hope it's sufficient to flatten and prep the 13k Sigma Select II.

[Tony Wilkins]

As mentioned in my OP I've already acquired a polishing stone: a 13k Sigma Select II.
I'm looking for a honing stone (6k+/-) as the second step in a 3 stone/grit system, following a 1k Shapton Pro.
Honest question: do you really need something in between? I notice Cosman jumps between 1k and 16k

[Ned Mcbee]

I previously had a Norton set, and my biggest complaint was the frequency of sharpening followed by the soaking. I've found the Shapton Pro set to be excellent and resolved both issues. Now I keep my stones in my shop, spritz some water on to sharpen, and flatten them every once in a while. Well worth the cost. I can't say if the sigma stones are better or worse, but I seem to remember hearing positive things. IIRC, the Sigma stones were pricey, but the Shapton Pro stones were available grey market import for much less, so I went with them. That may no longer be true.

Good to hear the spray & go nature of the Shapton Pros simplifies your workflow.
A few weeks ago a local store (MTC Kitchen) had their Sigma Select II stones on clearance sale: the 13k was half price @ $62 which is why I got it. Shapton 1K was $46 (which is commensurate with online merchants). IIRC I got an email about a store wide 20% sale ... so possibly the Shapton Pros can be had cheaper. Perhaps I should get the Shapton 8K? Not sure how that works as a honing stage between the 1k Shapton and 13K Sigma?
This particular store has a huge variety of stones, more than I've ever seen in person at a retailer. They specialize in Japanese restaurant supplies and have a vast selection of expensive sushi knives. Refreshing to see in NYC as excepting TFWW the stores (or crossover stores) useful for woodworkers is grim (Garrett Wade going downhill then closing their showroom many years ago was the harbinger of things to come).

[Ned Mcbee]

Honest question: do you really need something in between? I notice Cosman jumps between 1k and 16k

Not sure. I haven't toyed with the new stones yet. I figured the 1k would get the edge ready and a 6k would hone it (if anything I'd of thought the 13k would be the stone that would be least necessary? Theoretical as I've not used them, but I'd think the 1k and 6k would be more the most essential and workhorses. Anyway it's why I'm asking the question: I'm not sure what 6K would compliment the 1k Shapton Pro and 13k Sigma Select II (preferably feedback from folks with real world experience on these stones).

Also, it's possible the 1980s King 6k + nagura stone could suffice. These old skool King stones do the job but they're soft and wear rapidly, the plan was to upgrade to a new complete set of stones.

[Ned Mcbee]

+1 on the Shapton pros. I have the 8k and 12k. Both are great. I think the higher grits will last a lifetime. Most of my wear and tear is on my 1k Shapton and diamond plates.

Yeah, I don't see myself wearing out any of these, which is why I was planning for this to be my end game setup.

[Derek Cohen]

Ned, you must recognise that few here have compared different stones of similar grits, and there will just end up telling you what they use.

I used a Shapton Pro 5000 for several years, and hated it. It glazed over very quickly. For the past several years I have used a Sigma 6000, and it is excellent for my needs. Light years better than the Shapton.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Ned Mcbee]

Ned, you must recognise that few here have compared different stones of similar grits, and there will just end up telling you what they use.

I used a Shapton Pro 5000 for several years, and hated it. It glazed over very quickly. For the past several years I have used a Sigma 6000, and it is excellent for my needs. Light years better than the Shapton.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek,
Yes, I realize most will recommend what they use and furthermore will not have experience with both stones I recently acquired ... so may not be intimate with strengths, weaknesses, and quirks. Only someone experienced with a range of stones is qualified to take on matchmaking duties, lol. I was hoping some of the latter might put in an appearance and share their opinions.


Good to hear your feedback, in fact it was your endorsement of the suitability of the Shapton Pro 1k had an influence on my decision.

I believe the Sigma 6k you use (or used) is the former Sigma Power version (speckled appearance; defunct and unavailable) and not the newer Select II (different formulation, different animal). I've read many glowing reviews of the original Sigma Power 6k stone but the Select II stone doesn't seem to get the same love. Any experience with the newer stone?

What about the 8k Shapton Pro, any experience? Too big a jump from my 1k Shapton? Lackluster performance?

Any other stones that might fit the bill?

[Andrew Hughes]

As mentioned in my OP I've already acquired a polishing stone: a 13k Sigma Select II.
I'm looking for a honing stone (6k+/-) as the second step in a 3 stone/grit system, following a 1k Shapton Pro.

Why mix up different makers if your happy with sigma just buy the set. I use a set of 5 Shaptons and always recommend them with a diamond plate with grooves to keep them flat and cutting like new.
Shaptons green 5k wears fast I don’t have one anymore I jump from 2 k green to 8k purple. The purple is harder then 12 k yellow.
Lots of guys like the sigma I probably would too if I had them. Sharpening is mostly the archer not the arrows.
Good Luck

[Derek Cohen]

If you are using 5 stones to hone a blade, then that seems inefficient to me. I assume that you select a few only per time?

1000 Shapton Pro - 6000 Sigma - 13000 Sigma is what I have used for several years. Now my 13000 Sigma has been used up and I need to order another. In the meantime I am using a 10000 Sigma, and will try my old 12000 Shapton Pro.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Reed Gray]

Still learning this degree of sharpening, which is a long way from my lathe tools. At present, A CBN wheel to shape the primary bevel. For the secondary bevel, to form it, I will use a 220 or 40 DMT diamond lapping plate. I progress up to the 8000 grit plate. I do have Shapton 16,000 and 30,000 stones as well. Most of the time I will use them, then strop, 30,000 grit jeweler's rouge, and a green 60,000 grit compound. That seems to do the trick. When the edge needs to be touched up, I go back to the 8000 and then 30,000 stones. Some times, just to experiment, I will touch up on the 8000 grit, and then strop. I can't really tell much difference in the edges. When I lap the top of my Shapton stones, when I do the sharpening, I can see the grit lines from the diamond plate on the surface. I may need to use a finer lapping plate.

robo hippy

[Chris Parks]

I wouldn't want to be without the 13k for my use though.

If you don't buy the 13000 you will regret it, in fact if the price is right I would buy two just in case. I have 3 Shapton Pro's along with the 3 stone Sigma set Stu used to sell and that 13000 is the last one I would sell by a long way. Hollow grind on a 180 CBN, mini bevel using a 1000 stone and hone finish on the 13000 takes only a few minutes. I have never seen anyone knock the 13000 it is so good.

[Andrew Hughes]

If you are using 5 stones to hone a blade, then that seems inefficient to me. I assume that you select a few only per time?

1000 Shapton Pro - 6000 Sigma - 13000 Sigma is what I have used for several years. Now my 13000 Sigma has been used up and I need to order another. In the meantime I am using a 10000 Sigma, and will try my old 12000 Shapton Pro.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I don’t go thru the set every time I’m at the station. I do like most move through the grits backwards after hollow grinding A2. I’m sure you do the same as the hollow disappears.
I apologize in advance to the op for this off the topic hi jack.
Derek have you heard about the CPM blades from Lake Erie Toolworks? I just recently received my order it’s pretty tough stuff. Definitely tougher then A2.
The machining of the back was extremely flat very grateful. I wouldn’t want to be tasked with that.
I been using it on Alder so far I have no complaints.
Good Luck

[Ned Mcbee]

If you don't buy the 13000 you will regret it, in fact if the price is right I would buy two just in case. I have 3 Shapton Pro's along with the 3 stone Sigma set Stu used to sell and that 13000 is the last one I would sell by a long way. Hollow grind on a 180 CBN, mini bevel using a 1000 stone and hone finish on the 13000 takes only a few minutes. I have never seen anyone knock the 13000 it is so good.

Chris am I reading this correctly: you typically go from a 1000 stone direct to the 13000 Sigma without an intermediary stone?

(Or are you offering it as a prescription for usage of my two stones? Btw I've no grinder so my bevels aren't hollow ground.

[Ned Mcbee]

Why mix up different makers if your happy with sigma just buy the set.
Good Luck

Honestly I'm neither happy nor sad as I've not yet used either my new Shapton or Sigma stones. I'm basing purchase decisions on research, i.e. user feedback. The reason for starting this thread.

The idea behind mixing stones is that apparently different grits within a model line can behave and perform differently ... they can be very different animals, so the way a particular grit stone performs isn't necessarily indicative of how another in the model line will perform. Certain stones seem to have a large fan base and a larger consensus of being exceptional (within the parameters of it's particular design choices), other stones seem to get a rep for being lackluster, disappointing, or even a PITA.

[Ned Mcbee]

1000 Shapton Pro - 6000 Sigma - 13000 Sigma is what I have used for several years. Now my 13000 Sigma has been used up and I need to order another. In the meantime I am using a 10000 Sigma, and will try my old 12000 Shapton Pro.

Derek

Do you have any experience with the newer Sigma Select II 6000 (not the old one Stu used to sell)? I seem to recall reports of this particular stone being somewhat soft, cutting well but needing more frequent flattening.

[Keegan Shields]

I have the Shapton Pro 1K, 2K, 5K, 8K, and 12K. All are great to use with the exception of the 5K. Like Derek points out, it isn't quite as good. It tends to leave a cloudy finish (from the glazing I think) and stiction is an issue. Flattening it with a coarse stone helps some.

Its probably overkill, but you need to spend very little time on each of the 5 stones to get a perfect mirror edge.

If I was looking to buy again, I'd probably stick with the Shapton 1K, 8K, and try a different brand in the 4-6K range. Or perhaps try the Shapton glass backed stones. The 12K is probably not needed, but man it sure leaves a sharp edge.

I don't have any experience with the Sigma line. I have tried various other no name waterstone brands and the scary sharp lapping films. The step up in speed and quality of the Shapton Pros (and probably the Sigmas) is worth the money.

[Derek Cohen]

Do you have any experience with the newer Sigma Select II 6000 (not the old one Stu used to sell)? I seem to recall reports of this particular stone being somewhat soft, cutting well but needing more frequent flattening.

Sorry Ned, I cannot help there. My 6000 cracked into three pieces, and I epoxied them together and onto glass. They soldier on.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Paul Saffold]

My Sigma 6000 from Stu cracked as well. The stone moved more than the wood. So I cut it off the wood and epoxied it to glass. Then the glass cracked. Over time it started to splinter and wasn't safe to use so I heated the epoxy and got the stone off in chunks. Epoxied it back together without any backing. Looks awful but it works. In the mean time I bought a Shapton 5K that I haven't used.

[Tom M King]

My pink speckled Power 6,000, bought in 2015 or 16 is still good. It's my starting stone when I'm in the middle of a hand planing job. It was never mounted to wood. It's just a bare stone that both sides (and the edges) can be used. It's a shame that this stone is apparently not on the market any more.

[Tony Wilkins]

I just got the Shapton 12k but haven’t used it with the intention of going from my Hida (think made by King)to it but haven’t used it. Have a set of 800, 1,500 and 8k Suehiro dual stones* I got from Stu a while back. I really like them but my plan is to use up the King first. For years my top stone has been a King 6k on a plastic base.

*You can use them with water or oil. I really like them but haven’t found them since Stu closed his site. The 8k (according to Stu) finishes like a 10k-12k in most other stones.

say this to posit that a stone in this range (especially a good one) may not be necessary if you’re going higher.

[Tom M King]

I use a number of stones between normal set grits. It's cheaper to use fewer stones, but there has to be more wear on each one. Are they necessary? No, but mine only see 6 to 10 strokes on each stone. They're right there in a rack, so switching stones takes three seconds.

I'm in a location where there is no worry about wasting water. It comes out of a well, and goes back in the ground. I use water stones under a clean stream of water. No soaking needed since it's getting plenty from above.

I'm actually going to move my sharpening sink back here from an old house in just a few minutes. I'll post some pictures when I get it set up here.

Some years ago I posted a video of taking a chisel that had been used to get paint off of bricks to hair shaving sharp in about four minutes with just stones. It was set up at a sink in the basement of a museum house I was working on. There was much complaining about wasting water and worry about the sink trap. I'll try to post another one with my regular setup. It should bring some equally funny reactions.

[Rob Luter]

I have the Shapton Glass Stones (Ceramic) in 6,000 and 16,000. They cut A2 and PMV pretty quick. A squirt of water with a touch of dish soap is all you need. If I have a damaged edge I have a Trend 300/1000 Diamond plate .

[Chris Parks]

Chris am I reading this correctly: you typically go from a 1000 stone direct to the 13000 Sigma without an intermediary stone?

(Or are you offering it as a prescription for usage of my two stones? Btw I've no grinder so my bevels aren't hollow ground.

It is doable if the blade is hollow ground but as the bevel gets larger I will use an intermediate stone for just a few strokes. The first honed bevel from the grinder is nearly small enough to make it hard to see so it is the end cutting result and nothing else I judge the hone on. There is no way a full bevel hone could be done that way or at least I don't think so but I am no expert and sharp enough is my criteria.

Our mania around sharpening is a relatively recent thing and I recall my father and his father doing very nice work without all the fuss we see today in the hobby sector. Hollow grinding is the single best thing to happen for me as it is so fast. If starting now I would invest in a CBN wheel and a grinder rather than more expensive stones as that would be a cheaper way to get to sharp tools and far less frustrating. I wish I had all the dollars I have spent on reaching that conclusion.