How many on here make a living at woodworking?

[Jeff Monson]

Just like to see how many members on this site are actually make a living at woodworking, its a dream of mine to do so as I really enjoy it, I'm just afraid to make the plunge with the limited experience I have.

If so are you a shop owner or employed at a shop?

[Jim Hager]

I want to make a living as a pro woodworker but for right now I will have to be satisfied with making my primary living as a teacher and a supplemental income in my shop. I did the books the other day and it looks like a very real possibility.

I have a pretty good client list adding up and one of these days pretty soon I'm gonna pull the trigger and set out on my own. I guess I should start another TICK< TICK< TICK to time when I bail out of the day job.

All of my Saturdays and Sundays are spent in the shop trying to keep up with my list of clients. Right now I've probably got enough work to keep me busy for 2 months if I were a full timer. People seem to be happy to wait on me.

[Frank Pellow]

Jeff, check the poll in the thread: http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=16587

[Jim Fancher]

It's just an expensive hobby for me. One of many.:rolleyes:

[J.R. Rutter]

I'm making a living at it. Of course it took about 4 years to get to that level. Lots of laying awake at night wondering how on earth I could avoid going back to a regular paycheck job. But, knock wood, things are cruising along. Always a new challenge, a new risk, a new reward. I am still the sole employee, and have taken the path of upgrading my shop and machinery rather than invest in employees. It is hard sometimes working 10, 12, even 16 hour days occaisionally, but I wanted to be a producer, not a manager...

[Steve Clardy]

Yes. I do. Not to sure about actually making a living sometimes.
But I really enjoy it!!

[Chris Dodge]

It's part time for me (20 hours per week) but I am seriously considering going at it full time. I have done the math and can do very well with it. My wife is a little worried though because she likes the security of my current job and benefits. I have so much woodworking work coming my way right now that I am turning away customers because I don't have the extra time to do more. Tough decision to make. Security or doing what you love...

[ROBERT ELLIS]

Jefff I'm new to the creek but not to full time woodworking. This may shock some but I'm going the other way. I'm gonna be starting to work for my brother at his business and hopefully put woodworking back to hobby status, and maybe even make a few pieces for myself. I've been wworking mostly full time since 97' and here's a few tips I'll pass on to you for what it's worth.

Try to sell directly to the public. Thereby cutting out the wholesale market to prevent losing a large part of your profits. I got in the groove of starting out selling to dealers and got stuck in that mold.

Your location will be a big factor as to whether or not you'll be successful at it. Where I live folks here don't make as much as they do in the bigger cities, and they're unwilling to pay the higher retail price. This was my major reason I had to sell wholesale to dealers away from my hometown.

Assuming your married, if your wife works and has a decent job, it will make things much easier. Also if your bent on wworking full time, ease into, build up a clientale.

Keep in my mind furniture buying by the public can be a fickle thing. Things can change overnight. Another 9-11 will cause folks to keep thier wallets next to them. I know, this happened to my wworking business, and it took a couple of years for things to pick up again. It's still not what it used to be (at least for me)

As J.R. posted, you can expect to put in long, long hours in the shop! Not to mention the "perpetual war sawdust wages against you".

One last note, I remember the other night reading an article in FWW (I think Jeff Dunbar wrote it) about some secrets of a successful wworking career. It would be well worth your time to read it. If you like, I'll try to find what issue it was in.

Well I could write a book on the subject, but wouldn't want to bore everyone.

Hope I've helped some. Good Luck in your future decisions.

Robert

[Tim Devery]

Fulltime, if you count installing and finishing hardwood flooring.
It must count, I come home coated with wood dust.:)

[Bruce Shiverdecker]

I can't say that I'm making a living Woodworking, but my art is starting to be recognized. In a couple of weeks, we are taking a cruise in the Carribean and my sales from December, alone, are paying for all the shore excursions. I have also started improving my tools, totally supported by sales. I'm not really trying to make WWing a business for me.

Bruce

[Keith Outten]

Jeff,

I have been woodworking for 30 years, professionally for the last five. Robert's comments about the September 11th disaster are true and had an effect on my business as well. I had to take a break from full-time briefly but my shop work over the last two years is back to a full-time workload although I still have a few months left working my day job for CNU. Although I have tried many types of woodworking these days my work is mostly commercial signs and some custom millwork. I don't use wood exclusively anymore but it is still a big part of my business. Another major material for me is solid surface materials like Dupont Corian. Using Corian is very simular to wood in that it can be shaped with routers, cut with saws and glued using various types of adhesives. Solid surface materials are worth a look for most woodworkers, the option of using it for table tops and other ways to enhance a project can make a difference, something like the old marble top tables of days gone by.

Making a living at woodworking can be very difficult, the Walmart mentality of some customers should not be discounted and there is very little work at the high-end for start-ups. Some have a lot of success in the cabinet industry as there is always work from the construction of new homes. Custom furniture is certainly a viable option but can be very difficult to market enough business to stay alive, at least in the beginning.

Plan carefully and don't underestimate the value of marketing.

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Well I'm going to jump in here from very different angle.

We (my lovely wife and I) run her family's liquor shop, here in Tokyo Japan. I work 12 to 16 hours a day, 6 days a week, we often work on Sundays part days as well. We have tried very hard to "Specialize" in the fine wine and cigar area, we are becoming successful at this, but the market here is cut throat, and the economy, in general, is still just puttering along. We have a lot riding on this business, loans on new 6 and 7 floor buildings, mortgages etc. etc. We make a living, but honestly, I think if I worked at a hamburger joint the hours I do a the L shop, I'd take home more money.

Why do I tell you this? Well, I have a buddy, who also runs a liquor shop, he is heavily into wine, and he works as hard as me if not harder, but there is a huge difference, he just simply LOVES it, he LOVES any and everything to do with wine, he has scraped together the money to visit Italy & France, he lives for the whole wine thing. On the other hand, for me it is a job, I never intended to get into this business, I did not wake up one day and say "Gee I'd like to run a liquor shop" I just came along to help out my wife's family, when she could not work, as she was pregnant with our first daughter (12 year ago!).

So you see, if you really, really love the whole wood working thing, if you love to create with your hands, if it makes you feel good, well then, if you do feel that way, then even a struggle will be worth it. If you are doing it because you think it might be a decent way to make a living, well you may very well be disappointed.

I hope no one takes this the wrong way, but you also have to be careful who you take your advice from on this subject, if the person is running a successful business doing this wood working thing, then I'd take their advice much more to heart.

I'm preparing for the day when the MILFH dies, we will most likely lose the business, as the death tax here is 70%, yes that is right, they take 70% and leave us with 30%, unless I take a 30 year mortgage to buy back my own building and business, I'm sunk, so at that time, I'm going to go into business for myself doing this woodworking thing :D

OK who wants a go on the soapbox, I'm done!

Cheers!

[Art Mulder]

... we will most likely lose the business, as the death tax here is 70%, yes that is right, they take 70% and leave us with 30%, unless I take a 30 year mortgage to buy back my own building and business, I'm sunk, so at that time, I'm going to go into business for myself doing this woodworking thing

So far, woodworking is strictly a hobby, and with one exception, strictly for my own families enjoyment. Frankly, I'm not sure I'd enjoy it as much if I *had* to do it every day. I have scored some income, but from writing about woodworking for a magazine, not from selling pieces. And yeah, the magazine income is fun, but again, I think it would be very very hard for someone to make a decent living writing about woodworking.

Stu, this is probably an obvious question, but don't people try to get around that tax by giving away their possessions before they die?

[Paul Canaris]

Thats the plan when I retire:o

[Tom Horton]

I'm a full time "home repair specialist". People break it, I fix it. I've been in the home building business for almost 30 years, and I'm self-employed now, going on 5 years. It's not an easy way to make a living, but if you are a stickler for details, and are honest, your work will reflect that. That's what gets the business. Marketing is good, but word of mouth is best. I have a large shop that is used for woodworking, and many other things, but my client base is largely those who need small item repairs.

[Chris Barton]

I think many of us would like to make our living woodworking but, we know the harsh reality that few actually do. I have many, many people tell me that instead of medicine I should focus on furniture (maybe they are trying to give me a hint?) but, I would be shirtless and living under an interstate overpass in less than a year if I did.

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Stu, this is probably an obvious question, but don't people try to get around that tax by giving away their possessions before they die?
Well Art the answer is two fold, one, you can only give away 5% of your worth to family per year, without being hit by LARGE taxes, and two, most of the older generation here use the ownership of the land/house/business as a club to beat the younger generation over the head. My lovely MILFH is in the latter category :mad:

I have a friend, his father gave 5% away to his kids for a number of years, and each year the eldest son bought the 5% back from each of his siblings. They have a family farm way out in the countryside somewhere, I don't know he details, but they had a party about two years ago, the father had finally given all his worth (land, business) to the kids, so he threw a party, as he was so pleased that when he dies, the stinking government will get nothing :D

he gladly gave up the farm to the eldest son, as he likes to go fishing.

Originally the laws were enacted as most of Tokyo and the whole country really, was owned by a very small, very rich number of families, everything was leased. This created problems for the economy, as there became a fairly affluent middle class, and more importantly merchant class, they had money, lots of it, but they could not buy land, and if the local family did not want to sell the land, or lease it, you were SOL.

The thing is, I see it time and time again here, there is a nice family that has lived here in the hood forever, same land, rebuilt the house a number of times, but now, the price of land is so high, and the death tax is so high, that when the grandfather or grandmother dies, the family cannot possibly pay the taxes, so they sell the land and move out to the suburbs, thus our area is quickly becoming converted to high-rises. Some big corp buys 3 or 4 of these plots, and puts up a 10 story building, and they make all the apartments small, one room jobs, for young people. This is much more profitable. When you rent in Japan, you sign a two year lease, but if you have to move, because of a new job etc, you forfeit the rest of the lease, and the key money etc you paid, thus, young people living is small apartments are better business, but they are not good for the local community, as we lose the number of families. We used to have 3 junior high schools in the area, we have two now, and soon that will become one, this makes the choices for my kids much less.

Anyways, sorry to get off on a tangent there...........:o

I wonder if Sam Maloof every worried about if he would be able to pay the bills..... ;)

[Robert Waddell]

I'm full time but I would not say I'm making a living. I'm starting my third year of official business. The first year I worked my day job and bought equipment with my ww money. Year two full-time, sales were up about 70%but not much money to spare. Year three and I don't really know what to do to get a real paycheck out of it. I'm in the middle of redesigning my products (crafts) and sourcing better venders. Hopefully to lower material prices so I can keep the same sales price point. If anyone has words of wisdom here, other than get out of WW, I'd love to hear them.

[Ian Barley]

I'm full time - sometimes it gets to be double full time:) I make a product and have been full time for 4 years now. I love every day. I don't feel that I have lost a hobby. I'm never gonna get rich off it but having invested in new kit for the last three years I now feel I am pretty much there and expect my living to improve from here. I work harder than I ever have and sleep better than I ever did. I get to spend tha day the way I want and don't have to bicker with anybody about priorities or budgets. My time, my dollar, my decision.

Everytime this thread comes up I feel compelled to make the same point though. I am a woodworking business. If you don't have the inclination for business it doesn't matter about your inclination for woodworking. You need to be able to set prices, manage costs, attract customers, deal with accounts and make your products. If there is any of that list that you are not comfortable with you will be better off working for somebody else.

[tod evans]

jeff, i make my living doing stuff that "joe in his garage" has a dificult time doing. my suggestion would be to train/educate yourself as much as possible before jumping in head first. as robert said the craft industry is really hard to make money in because there are so many doing it for the cost of cheap tools and material, their beans and housing are allready accounted for. a fellow can`t work for free and when you`re a self employed woodworker insurance companies buck your premiums as a matter of fact so be sure to factor in extra there. you never stated your age or financial status so i`m taking for granted you will need to exist mainly off the monies you generate chopping up boards? if this is so finding a speciality is really important and so is becoming proficient in your chosen field......02 tod

[ROBERT ELLIS]

Robert Waddell

You'll notice in my post I stated I was leaving full time wworking to work at my brothers business. I stated in my introductory post I make Shaker Style Furniture. Having said that, I was disheartened to learn from your post your not making a good living at doing crafts. My disheartment came because I was wanting to take my wworking into that direction instead of the larger pieces I make. My plans was to do the smaller items after hours and start doing shows, selling to "handmade craft stores", etc. and actually get some enjoyment again (without the stress) and make a little side money. Is my plan feasable? Your comments are appreciated.

The crafts I want to make would be outof cherry, walnut, other hardwoods. Items would be trays, small Shaker benches, maybe cutting boards.

You asked for opinions...not knowing what type of crafts you make, I will let you know what I seen sold the best at the Shaker craft fair last year in Kentucky. Primitive crafts! ugly, hand-painted, distressed, pieces like wall shelves, benches, wall cabinets. The lady I met selling these pieces say's she usually sells out every show (did so last year). Something to think about. Here latley, I have been experimenting making some of my items outof poplar, sassafras and painting them in reds, black, sage, and want to do some items in cranberry (hotest seller).

Anyway, I hope to make it to the Ky Craft Market this March and I'll try to see you there. BTW was you the one who offered the free tickets to this event?

Robert

[J.R. Rutter]

I agree with Tod that you have to find a niche.

When I started, I tried everything that I could think of, or that came my way. I still have my very first customer from when I was a hobbyist, a HiFi kit company that I supply unfinished, unassembled boxes for. When I started, it was a 2-3 day affair to buy, mill, and pack the kits. Now I do 4 times as much at a time, using wood that costs me almost half as much, in a single 8-hour day. Of course, I'm able to do that because I invested in some serious equipment, and buy a full unit of wood at a time direct from the mill.

If you can manage to find a few customers like that, plus do whatever custom stuff comes your way, then your prospects improve. Just be ready to try 10 things before finding one that pays off.

[ROBERT ELLIS]

Hello Stu,

Interesting line of work you do. I wrote in my profile that I'm an amateur wine maker. I have a small vineyard, and finally after all these years I'm starting to make a decent wine (at least that's the opinions I get from the friends I give a bottle to).

In regards to listening only to "successful wworkers" I know you'll agree you can learn from folks that aren't so successful in regards to what pitfalls to avoid, what to differently, etc., etc...BTW I didn't take it the wrong way and know what you meant. In my case, I wouldn't say I was or wasn't successful. My wife, stayed at home and we raised five children, all the bills were paid. But living hand to mouth, and all the trials associated with being self-employed soon can take its toll. That's why I'm looking forward to this new job, and doing wworking for fun, as a hobby, and making a little money on the side...

Cheers,

Robert

[aaron allen]

I left the family business and became a carpenter. Two years later and a lot of studying, I got my first job in a cab. shop because I wanted to specialize and not do framing. I got level A pay with the unions after 2 1/2 yrs. and stayed w/ them for 2 years. I got tired of getting laid off and found work as a trim carpenter for an custom-exclusive builder that typically builds 15,000 sq. ft. + with a level of quality rarely seen in this day and age. I have been with them for 5 yrs. now.

[Per Swenson]

Hello all,

Yes I make a living at this, but I don't build furniture.

Did I one day say, I am gonna quit my day Job?

Nope, never really had one. Let me explain.

We have always had a shop. As a young un my Father Bob

built his own sets for his commercial photo business.

My childhood modeling career was not plastic cars, but

wooden airplanes that flew. Early blueprint reading.

Before and during college I worked in and ran a lumberyard.

This does not count as a real job for these are the 1970s

of which I speak. After college, well,ever try to get a job as a philosopher?

Not to many offers. So I ran away with my Bride to the Forrest slums of

New York State. Where I was hired to cut stone for a German fireplace

artist. There are only two seasons in this part of NY state, Summer and

unemployment. Back to NJ with my tail between my legs and a little

knowledge, I worked the unions. Laborers, Masons, and Carpenters.

Late 80s, came the end of the boom for office's and high rise's in north

Jersey. So I diversified to residential. Then came the bookcases , builtins

entertainment centers, fireplace mantels and bars. Big bars.

Do I go out and hang rock if I am slow? Sure! Put in a hardwood floor?

you bet. Its like this, I have a number in my head that makes me feel good

about myself. I need to make that in 8 months out of every year.

I am just fortunate to be able to do it.

Per

[Richard Wolf]

I make a living building stairs and railings. Like Tod, I really feel you need to be a specialist. You need to be able to do something that the average person can not do.

I also have the benifit of people needing my service. Stairs are not a luxury in a two story house.
There is alot of people that have posted here with very good information. I like what Ian said about being a business man and not just a woodworking trying to sell his wares.
I have a college education, and my Dad used to ask me if I wasted my time going to college. Not at all, I learned alot about people and how to deal with people and situations on a professional level. I can't count how many times people have said to me,"you sound way to smart to be a carpenter", no offense to anyone, I'm not a carpenter, I'm a business man.

Richard

[Mark Singer]

I have suported my extravagant lifestyle just from being a Moderator on SawMill Creek...although very few people ever post in the Design Forum I have done really well. The Yachts...Sports Cars ..estates ...and Bruno Maggli shoes and the expensive wines not to mention...the Formal wear I use in my shop are a testimony to just how profitable moderating can be.....My Father always said do things in moderation....:rolleyes:

[Jeff Monson]

Well here goes my story as quick as I can without boring you guys!!!


Alot of very inspiring responses, I own an import auto repair shop in my town, I've done very well for myself and have been in business for 10 years last November, I have a partner in my business and 3 full time employees, my partner has gotten into some drug problems and is on his way to recovery, I hope. But I feel my reputation is at stake, also my HEART is not into auto repair, so I'm selling out my half, I love owning a business and making decisions, I just cant gamble on ruining a good name I've made for myself, my wife and my children over 10 years, I dont do drugs or want to be associated with any avenue of them, so I'm selling out. I'm 39 years old today, I will be debt free after my business is sold, so I'll owe nothing on my house, car, etc.

So this is why I posed the question, I've done woodworking in my spare time and own a good quanity of tools, when I go to my woodshop, (which is very small by the way) I feel free from everything, it relaxes me, and I really love it, my heart is in this work. I just dont know if my knowlege of woodworking is where it needs to be to make a living.

I truly love reading some of the responses and if this was a forum on auto repair I'd probably post that its alot of work and specializing is the way to go, so you guys have hit some really good points.

I do feel you need to love your job and I need to get there, oneday for myself and my family.

[Don Baer]

I wonder if Sam Maloof every worried about if he would be able to pay the bills..... ;)

Actualy the answer is yes he did, but "Freda" the LOHL kept after him to persue his dream.

The first pieces of furniture he made were from plywood that he recycled from a cement project where the plywood had been used for the forms. He had a headstone manufacturer sandblast it so he could use it to make furniture for his house.

Maybe thats why to this day he hates to thow out any scrap...;)

[Andy Hoyt]

Tod, JR, and Richard hit the nail spot on.

To be successful in woodworking - especially as a sole proprietor in a one person shop, which is probably how most folks get started - you absolutely must have something which distinguishes you from the rest of the pack.

There's nothing wrong with TV trays, Entertainment systems, birdhouses, and such. That's why lots of people make them, including the offshore suppliers to the box stores. Pretty tough to compete in that arena. So why bother?

So what sets you apart? Is it your quality? Your fast turn around time? Your good pricing? Your experience and reputation? Sure, they help. But the biggest single thing you can do is to develop a product that is absolutely unique. Something no one else produces.

Identify that thing. Work it. Design it. Work it some more. Re-design it. Develop practices, techniques, and tool setups that benefit your business plan. Don't quit the day job. Work it again. Do some test marketing. Work it yet again. And so on, ad nauseum.

Me? That's what I did. Began in '86 or '87 with one goal in mind. Then in early 2003 I was finally able to kick it into high gear. Only now am I beginning to feel a sense of accomplishment.

[Stu Ablett in Tokyo Japan]

Hello Stu,

Interesting line of work you do. I wrote in my profile that I'm an amateur wine maker. I have a small vineyard, and finally after all these years I'm starting to make a decent wine (at least that's the opinions I get from the friends I give a bottle to).

In regards to listening only to "successful wworkers" I know you'll agree you can learn from folks that aren't so successful in regards to what pitfalls to avoid, what to differently, etc., etc...BTW I didn't take it the wrong way and know what you meant. In my case, I wouldn't say I was or wasn't successful. My wife, stayed at home and we raised five children, all the bills were paid. But living hand to mouth, and all the trials associated with being self-employed soon can take its toll. That's why I'm looking forward to this new job, and doing wworking for fun, as a hobby, and making a little money on the side...

Cheers,

Robert
Thanks for the reply Robert, and I'm very happy that you did not take it in the wrong way. :)

It sounds like you have been very successful, but you need a change, and they say "A change is as good as a rest" so I really hope it works out for you.

Sure I agree that you can learn from others mistakes, but that was not the kind of advice I was talking about, I'm talking about the "Should I do it or not" advice. People who cannot do it, who fail at it (and I'm not including you in that group, Robert) are not the best people to ask "Can it be done?"

Our L shop is doing OK, we have a decent business, all the banks are being paid off on time, and I could see this humming along for many years, but I would not pick it as my 1st choice in jobs, but then again, it really is not my last either :D

Funnily enough, I own a liquor store, but I very rarely drink, mainly because I don't drink alone, and I hate waking up with any kind of a hang over, as it just slows me down the next day.

The whole "Specializing" thing is key, that is what we are doing with the L shop, I'm always on the lookout for wine that is rare, and not priced through the roof, and I'll import it myself as well. I recently brought in over $6000 worth of wine from the UK (my cost, not the selling price) and some of it is rare, and no one else has it for sale here in Japan, so I can make some good money on it, and make a rep for the shop that is good...........

...........but, in the end, I'd still rather be making sawdust :D

[Rob Will]

Are you kidding? I spend all my time on the internet.;)

Actually I see many people start one man businesses that have all of their time consumed by talking with customers, getting supplies, filling out paperwork.....you know, administrative stuff. The next thing you know they have no "billable hours". Certain employee types improve this situation but if they are "talkers", it may get worse.

.02 1/2 Rob