What Kind Of Wood Putty Can I Use For This Repair (Timber Frame Repair Questions)

[Maurice Mcmurry]

I sure hope the title of this thread is a joke!
I have a repair to do on a simple little timber frame structure. It is the In-laws camp cabin. I am really intimidated by the thought of trying to reproduce the joinery that Great Grand Pa and his predecessor used in and before 1909. As far as I can tell the big timber sills are mortis and tenon and the vertical corner post is/was also a tusk or dovetail that pins the joint. I think we will have to do a tacky patch job (at least for the short term). We hope to get some advice from a timber framer.

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A long video that needs an edit...


https://youtu.be/6e5AFIfHUgs

[Jim Becker]

I did not watch the video, but typically from what I've seen, replacement of portions (or all) of a degraded timber sill has to be handled not unlike underpinning a foundation...it sections and you may need to replace the lowest part of any vertical members that intersect with it. AFAIK, we do have a few folks in the forum that do timber frame. You might also check with Shelter Institute to see if they have any information resources that are helpful to you.

I'm going to add a reference to Timber Frame to your thread title because it might garner attention accordingly.

[Kevin Jenness]

Best thing for a proper job would be to slide some steel under the floor frame, jack it up for access and replace/repair the sills as needed. Next best is to work in sections, taking into account that with dutchmen the sill strength is compromised and may need more support points. The joinery can be simplified if necessary, replaced or reinforced with hardware. It's not rocket surgery but it does require some equipment and planning (and brute force) to make the repairs. First, though, fix the roof, otherwise your work will be wasted.

[Cameron Wood]

I'm working on a backyard cottage currently. It's on a slab, & my original idea was to support it and cut off the bottom foot or so, make repairs and patch the siding with a water table and skirt. Was only able to get a permit for a smaller scope, & now I've demo'd 1/3 of the building down to dirt, including what turned out to be two layers of slab with included wood, termites, bamboo, roof leaks, and more.

My advice: don't worry about replicating the joinery- life is short, it's already a tough job and the building doesn't look to be getting historical landmark status any time soon.

[Jim Becker]

I kinda agree with Cameron about not trying to replicate the original joinery unless, for some reason, it's going to actually be visible rather than just part of the bones. Functionality and safety should be the primary concern. If you really do need to replicate, professional help or at least advise is a really good idea...you don't want a building coming down because of a boo-boo or use of the wrong "wood putty". ;)

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Im going to replace the roof in July and hopefully start on the rotted sills and siding in the fall. The building is built so strong the sills are not even necessary as long as the corner posts and big log floor joists are supported. I dug under and around enough to get all of the log floor joists level and supported in three places each. A compromise between historical preservation and make it last a few more years will have to be reached. I have been admiring the carpentry of the place for 42 years. I wish we could have tackled the problems 20 years ago.
The property is off the grid. I went to Home Depot with the intention of getting a Milwaukee 18 volt tool outfit but settled for Ryobi. The weird green color of the Ryobi tools look really out of place there. Some of Great grandpas's tools are still there!

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[Cameron Wood]

Ooh, I could have used that yoke, carrying endless buckets of gravel...

[Maurice Mcmurry]

The yoke is a very nice piece of work! I made one that is embarrassingly not elegant. They are a remarkably handy simple device. Fetching water from the brook is a daily chore. The yoke really lightens the load. I am reading Harold H. Payson's handsaw book, "Keeping The Cutting Edge" again and will bring it along when I go back. There are more tools, hand saws, another bow saw, several saw blades, brace and bits, wooden and iron planes etc. There is nothing left of the old wooden wheelbarrow but the iron hub with the remnants of rotten wood spokes. Recreating the wheel borrow is on my list for later. I hope there is a picture of the old wheelbarrow, I remember it being very elegant as well. Ned Dana Martin, the man who built the place and some of the tools, was an engineer with the Boston and Maine Railroad.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

The roof repair will be put off until after 11 big trees come down. I am optimistic about getting 1000 BF of 1 inch rough pine and hemlock from Trees To Dreams near Canaan NH. We hope to restore the cistern. The parts are still present.503951

[Richard Coers]

Tommy Silva on This Old House usually cuts a half lap in the solid part of the beam and then makes a dutchman with the same half lap with the right height of a solid beam going down to the joist. He used to use bolts throughout the half lap, bit probably construction screws now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6naaDBrZSc

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Thanks for the link. Trees To Dreams will make any size lumber or beams. I will need 7 x 7’s when I get back to working on the sills. Apparently green lumber was often used to construct barns. I want to season the new wood at least a little. “Open Woods” has given an estimate for felling the problem trees that threaten the place, we said yes . The forestry and lumber folks here are very knowledgeable.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Having lots of rain. I have the leaky places covered with tarps. The brook is high. A big mass floated by, I think it was part of Vermont. Here is an image of the 1 board chest. The board is 16 1/4 wide. Nice job on the dovetails. 1 coat of thin red paint and they are almost invisible, no wood putty required.
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[Holmes Anderson]

Post video of the crawl space if it isn't too much trouble. Is that 6x6 hemlock just under the rim joists (which I guess is why you describe it as a sill) or is it part of a grid of timbers that support all the joists? Do the posts sit on the floor deck? If the joists are still good then you may be able to jack the cabin up enough to replace the rotted sills/timbers but that will be some heavy work in a confined space.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

I have just about gotten to where I can get under the whole building. The posts are joined to the sills and the two layers of floor notch around them. Some sills are hewn, some are sawn. The joists are logs with only the top flattened. I removed a lot of thick pink paper wall board from the interior and it is clear that the place was built from the remnants of another even older building. The old pink paperboard is helping cover the false start area on the roof. I am spending a week in Boston with F. I.L. Ralph. He loves the place dearly. He is 87
A lot of memorabilia about Ralph’s cousin Dock Mackey and his sons is present. They were dog sled champions.

[Jim Becker]

It's not unusual to see reused components in structures. Some of the first floor joists visible in the basement in the 250 yo portion of our previous residence were clearly re-used from another structure. They had actual beaded edges and a few had some scratchings from when they were likely part of a timber frame structure and coded by the maker so things were put where they were designed to go. Some were white oak and others were softwood. We didn't have any "wavy" hand-hewn components, however, but there could have been that much farther back. I do not believe that the joists were original as the lintels visible on the outside of the stone structure were a lot more primitive and definitely hand-hewn.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

The journal the builder kept has been handed over to an Aunt. Hopefully Great Grandpa Ned wrote about building the place. I found an old belt in the toolbox and guess it may have been great great Grandpa’s. My Father in law has the history somewhere in his memories. When I ask he can’t remember, occasionally he mentions some random detail.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Ralph’s cousin Dock Mackey.

That's Dick Mackey
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[Maurice Mcmurry]

I spent last week in Boston helping my father in law get to the dining room three times a day. No progress on camp. I started feeling bad the last day. Feeling very bad. Covid symptoms , darn.
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[John C Cox]

Quality wood preservative is well worth the money. I have seen so many wooden structures rot and fall down for the want of a few cans of preservative. We forget that back in the day, they had some really powerful (and harmful) rot preservatives. Most aren't on the market anymore (for good reason,) but that means you have to reapply the stuff you can get more frequently.

Putty frequently causes more problems than it solves, as it traps moisture into the already-compromised wood, thus accelerating existing rot problems.

If you have the option of sourcing sawn tree lumber instead or commercial stuff, see about getting rot resistant stuff if possible. Osage orange, several flavors of locust, heartwood white oak, and heartwood yellow pine can be really long lasting. Quite a few of these are in low demand, especially if they come out of yard trees, and can be gotten for basically the cost of transportation and sawing

While you're in there anywhere, termite protection is a good idea as well.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

I use Jasco Copper Green on exterior projects. The smell is very unpleasant. The tree service guy will start Aug. 21. He is confident that the impossible looking job will not be a problem. I am holding off on repairs until trees are down. I keep finding interesting rust. The chains, shackles, and pulley’s may be for moving stones. I need to figure out how to get some big stones back up on the stone walls.
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[Maurice Mcmurry]

Post video of the crawl space if it isn't too much trouble. Is that 6x6 hemlock just under the rim joists (which I guess is why you describe it as a sill) or is it part of a grid of timbers that support all the joists? Do the posts sit on the floor deck? If the joists are still good then you may be able to jack the cabin up enough to replace the rotted sills/timbers but that will be some heavy work in a confined space.

https://youtu.be/3bxnnx_Imiw

[Holmes Anderson]

https://youtu.be/3bxnnx_Imiw

You're description is accurate. I expected to see pier and beam supporting the raised wood floor joists but it looks like heavy sills are doing double duty. And I guess those sills are mortised at the posts and rabbeted at the joists.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

If the building was not in such a fragile state I would love to move it again. There is a lovely spot over looking the brook that is far away from the road. 40 years ago we would see 4 or 5 cars a day. Over 100 is what we see now. The site is very near the epicenter of the area described in the book “A Liberation Walks Into A Bear” by Matthew Hongoltz-Helting. The dynamic of the neighborhood adds to my struggles with doubt about the undertaking.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

I have 500 BDFT of hemlock from Goose Bay Lumber in Concord NH. I am looking forward to going back there when I head back to MO and getting some figured maple and exotic’s. They have an impressive stock of slabs, rounds, burls, etc. 880 BDFT of pine from Trees To Dreams near Canaan. I look forward to getting a new ceiling and roof deck. The smell and quality of light inside will be greatly improved.

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[Maurice Mcmurry]

Open Woods Farm Tree Service

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https://youtube.com/shorts/X9MBr-GtZ2A?si=tIf-KQ345z09IvQO

[Maurice Mcmurry]

The trees are down and 3 loads of logs were given away. Trees To Dreams did not hesitate to take the yard trees which have nails and iron. They will be metal detected and sawn with caution. I found more hand made nails for the nail collection.

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[Maurice Mcmurry]

Hopes of doing a nice historical restoration are giving way to make do and mend.

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[Maurice Mcmurry]

I am looking at the sills again and will most likely be piecing in treated wood.

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[Tom Bender]

Maurice, after watching the first video it looked like a hopeless task. The 'underside' video is muchmore hopefull. The joists and flooring seem good and the problems seem to be mostly the sills, siding and roofing. Great rescue effort.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Thanks Tom. We probably should have torn it down. I have the roof boards and shingles done. I am piecing the sills back and replacing the boards that served as siding.
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I spent most of an hour on a rainy day carving a new bolt for FIL’s square that I dropped. A silly undertaking that turned out OK.
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[Maurice Mcmurry]

I have made some progress. Everything is a little lumpy and crooked. I had a visit from the patriarch, his first time here in several years. I was worried that he would be upset about the changes. He was pleased.
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[Maurice Mcmurry]

My Father In Law had a lovely day at his beloved Camp. It made the whole summers effort make sense.
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[Kevin Jenness]

That's a great fixit job. Doesn't have to be perfect, you gave the building a new lease on life. Your father in law looks happy.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Thanks Kevin. It is in such lovely country. The part of the drive from Troy NY, through Vermont is a highlight of the trip. Seeing the Bennington Battle Monument always gives me the chills (good chills).

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Here is an image of the place from 1910. The farm was fizzling out and the family members had started working in the towns. Great Grandpa built the place on the farm and moved it to one the little lots that the family did not sell.

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[Jim Becker]

Wow...pretty kewel to have that photo!!

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Thanks Jim! We have quite a few. The two little girls are Dorthy and Shirley. I have been working on Dorthy's place. Here is Shirleys's place in 1931 and again in 2023. The low pitch roof was not well suited for an area that gets 6 feet of snow.

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[Maurice Mcmurry]

Here is an image of the place from 1910. The farm was fizzling out and the family members had started working in the towns. Great Grandpa built the place on the farm and moved it to one the little lots that the family did not sell.

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I wish I had talked with Dorthy Martin more than I did. We were neighbors when she was 90. She would have known who the other Martins in the pictures were. The little bird I put on the gable end of Camp is intended to be a Martin. There is some interesting reading about the Martins in the book Isinglass, Timber, and Wool.

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[Maurice Mcmurry]

That's Dick Mackey
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Ralph & Ronald along with Dick Mackey as youngsters. Both of Dicks boys had some success with sled dogs as well. Lance was (is) the most winning champion to date.

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The Great Alone (2015) - IMDb (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt3288930/)

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Winter update

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[Larry Edgerton]

Very cool!

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Thanks Mr. Edgerton, It feels good to know that there is a decent roof under that snow. The gentleman who did the tree work has launched this winter project.

https://www.isinglasstrails.org/