Third world tenoning, is this safe?!?

[Aaron Inami]

This just popped up on my youtube browsing and kind of make me pretty darn concerned.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEcVlmeUBF8

What are your thoughts?

[Ben Grefe]

The way it's being done in that video? No way that's safe. Especially raising the board into the blade is just asking for a catch. But having no guards is just a terrible idea.

However with guards and the proper fence, I could see how this cut can be made safely. There's a Japanese woodworker with a similar setup on his table saw and the way he makes these same cuts looks much safer.

[Jason Roehl]

Health, wealth, and comfort change one’s perspective on what is “safe.” There is a lot of work done around the world by hungry people that would cause desk-riding policy wonks a stroke.

Personally, I don’t think it’s that bad. He was keeping his fingers back from the blade. Mechanical safety devices can fail. I find it’s better to train one’s brain to map out what can go wrong, how to prevent it if possible, and how to react to something going sideways.

[Mark Hennebury]

The graveyard is filled with people who are safe. Those of us that are alive are always at risk. Living is about managing risk.

That tenoning operation is dangerous, as is everything else that you do. How dangerous? depends a lot on the person doing it. Skiing down a mountain is more dangerous for me ( I don't ski ) than it would be for an Olympic skier. Same mountain, same equipment, same outcome if you screw up.

[Kevin Jenness]

This just popped up on my youtube browsing and kind of make me pretty darn concerned.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEcVlmeUBF8

What are your thoughts?

Third world? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMvmlUKl3EU at about 11:50. Tipping the piece as in the first video is unnecessary, but the tenoning table is a nice feature and safe enough if used with care. A hold-down would make it safer.

[Roger Feeley]

I certainly wouldn’t do anything like this. Did you notice the bushing on the left side of the blade that limited how far the board could go?

[Joe Calhoon]

A Tokiwa or similar saw-tenoner is on my wish list, expensive to import from Japan.Would be handy for a lot of joinery. Never Stop Building built his own.
https://www.neverstopbuilding.com/tenon-cutter
Not third world at all.

[Tom M King]

Not as scary to me as someone using a cross-cutting sled with no safety box on the back.

[Andrew Hughes]

I also don’t see a problem with his technique.
I think a bandsaw is a better choice. If they can’t afford shoes they probably can’t afford a bandsaw

[Mel Fulks]

In 1960s I worked in a shop, (old factory) that had a similar machine . I think it was foot operated, and the cut done in a slot.
It was old then , building was from 1890s. Three stories, floors had spots worn all the way through.

[Bill Dufour]

Third world? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZMvmlUKl3EU at about 11:50. Tipping the piece as in the first video is unnecessary, but the tenoning table is a nice feature and safe enough if used with care. A hold-down would make it safer.
I think the tipping is to make the cut straight instead of curved. I see the top is tipped to a mark the lower edge is just done by feel. His tipping seemed very consistant.
Bill D

[Edward Weber]

Not third world, not dangerous, (depending on the operator) and the tipping is not advised.
These are quite common in other countries. Here is a page with some good photos of one.
https://www.bigsandwoodworking.com/making-koushi-do-%E6%A0%BC%E5%AD%90%E6%88%B8-part-2/

[Edwin Santos]

The language in the title of the video is Marathi.
So it's a good bet that they are located somewhere in south India. Maybe Kerala, Tamil Nadu, or Karnataka? You can decide for yourself if this is the third world or not.

Occupational health and safety is not much of a priority in India. Even if you see nothing wrong with this video, I will bet good money a short walk around their shop would horrify you. Pretty much everyone will be either barefoot or wearing sandals called chappals.
It's not that they don't have the money for basic safety practices, its that it is not a priority worth spending money on in their eyes.

[John Downey]

Well I sure wouldn't do it.

But I have seen an old timer with all ten fingers do tenons with two blades and a spacer (tenon thickness) stacked on a shaper and the tenon cut using a crosscut guide from the table saw. Looked very scary, but it was really safe enough with due caution due to lack of guards exercised. The freehand part of that vid is what I found alarming, but it does look like he has plenty of practice at it.

[Mike Cutler]

That's the next you tube video that follows the video in this thread.

[Anuj Prateek]

The language in the title of the video is Marathi.
So it's a good bet that they are located somewhere in south India. Maybe Kerala, Tamil Nadu, or Karnataka? You can decide for yourself if this is the third world or not.


It's actually Hindi. Popular in North India but spoken is other parts of India as well. In the video they are making chair parts.

Title: Chool (tenon) chirne ka (to rip) asan (simple) tarika (method).

Translation: Simple method to rip tenons.

[Edward Weber]

The tool is quite common but as with nearly all tools, it has been "personalized'. These tools do come with blade guards but when adjusting the width of cut, they're often in the way.
The table should be close to the blade as possible, and the height of the table should put the stock in the center-line of the blade.
On the saw I linked to, you can also see that the table can either be moved in & out via hand-wheel or locked in place. It also has depth of cut stop mechanism, or you can simply lock the table (like most do) and feed the stock by hand.
The dangerous part is having the large gap between the table and blade, also the blade is set too high for the stock he's cutting. The operator further endangers himself by lifting the stock and pivoting it into the blade, loosing all but one pivot point of table support.

[Warren Lake]

hes likely done that thousands of times and will be fine. Probably as many or more unsafe things shown by our world you tubers.

My cross cut sled had no box. The back fence was higher in the middle and went to either side of the blade some amount then was angled down to a lower level. When you cut your hands were always there on the angles, sort of like a machine where your hands have to be on both buttons before it fires.

[Ole Anderson]

Any worse than sawing wood shingles?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ekk3DUeHFRE&ab_channel=rblood50

[James Jayko]

Ishitani (YouTube) uses the same sort of thing. At first, I thought it was quite terrifying. But the more I've thought about it, I think its more of what we perceive as safe (in the US / Europe) more than an inherently dangerous setup. Your hands can stay away from the blade (biggest table saw issue) and you can see the blade the entire time (second biggest issue). Actually, I'd quite like to try it out. Though I'm not sure its any easier than a regular tenoning jig for my TS...

[andrew whicker]

No thank you on that machine and pace.

[Edward Weber]

here is a proper tenoning machine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTcwJD-N0jE
About 7:09 in

[andrew whicker]

I was responding to Ole s video.



That tenon machine is amazing! I was just thinking of this guy... I love his hitachi groover. Every once in a while I do an ebay search for one.

[Christian Hawkshaw]

here is a proper tenoning machine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTcwJD-N0jE
About 7:09 in

That tenoning machine is really cool... That is quite the structure to store firewood in.

[Bill Dufour]

I get to throw in a link to the picket fence head cutting machine invented by my great grandfather. I see no safety guards of any kind. probably had. a big, unguarded, flat belt connected to a overhead shaft.
Family story is part H is the patent. It is a piece of scrap screwed down to prevent breakout on the workpiece. Probably in use already but he screwed it down to keep it in place. 1875.
Bill D.
https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/1c/31/ad/b377098d4931fb/US164276.pdf

[andrew whicker]

https://youtu.be/7lUed2UT8bA

I saw one a vintage version of this style being used by someone else. I really like it. Takes up a lot of space and a lot of tooling for one operation though

[Bradley Gray]

Seems like this could be set up as an accessory to a RAS

[Matthew Formoso]

You know that ain’t safe

[Rich Engelhardt]

Not as scary to me as someone using a cross-cutting sled with no safety box on the back.
He's got one of those too!
Check it out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRbZm7atpaI
He calls it - something about a 7" woodcutter & banana something or other. I'm not sure I want to know what cutter and "banana" in the same sentance refer to ;)

[Dave Sabo]

here is a proper tenoning machine
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTcwJD-N0jE
About 7:09 in


Complete with its safety guard removed too, which doesn't seem to bother him in the least.

[Prashun Patel]

I'm not sure the title "Third World Tenoning" is really appropriate. There are unsafe practices even here in the "First World".

I'm Indian American and this reference in this context is irrelevant at best or broadly suggestive at worst.

I am sure your title was not meant to offend, and I completely agree with the safety caveat.

[Phillip Mitchell]

Agreed. I am not Indian, but have traveled there fairly extensively and I would not call India the “third world”. There are many many places in India that are more advanced and developed than where I live in the semi rural US.

As already mentioned, the saw in question is also commonly found in other parts of the world (ie: Japan) that are certainly not considered Third World, though to be honest, I’m not even sure what is actually meant by that term anymore.

Open / unguarded blade withstanding, the only real issue I’d have with that operation and setup is the tilting at the end of the cut. It seems like with an appropriate height table for the stock to reference from (centered on the blade diameter) then you could eliminate the need to tilt. This would result in a slight over cutting on the middle / inside of that cheek cut, but that is no aesthetic or structural issue and would be safer.