Input requested on routers that have greater depth capability

[Jim Becker]

Although I have not reviewed the system yet, I acquired a TrueTrak slab flattening system for the shop awhile back and recently used it for the first time preparing the slabs for my current table top project. It works great and I'll go into more detail at a later date.

For my initial use, I employed my DW618 router motor and the D-handle base with the D-handle removed so it would fit on the mounting plate without drilling new holes. The router performed very well in every respect with the exception of one: available depth of cut with the tooling mounted properly in the collet. I used some work-arounds to complete the task, such as blocking the material up higher as it became "mo flat" as well as removing the depth adjustment ring for final passes. The job got done. I was happy with the results. But for long term, I'm considering buying a router that can be "dedicated" to the system that has more depth adjustment available. The end results would be the same, but there would be less fiddling and that reduces the chance of a mistake.

So from the collective mind, what 12-15 amp routers out there "in the current market" have "impressive depth" capabilities? I do have an OF1400, but I am not in any way shape or form going to dedicate that to the flattening setup as it's my primary hand-held unless I use the DW618 with the fixed base for a specific reason in the moment.

Thanks in advance!

[Phillip Mitchell]

What is the ~ max depth of cut you were able to achieve with the DW618, just to give us a reference?

I have mortised ~ 2 3/4" deep with a specific, longer 1/2" spiral bit with my Makita RP2301FC plunge router. It has been some years since I did so the details are hazy, but I seem to remember heavily adjusting the depth stop limits to get more range and eventually running into the limitation of the collet nut bottoming out on the work.

[Edward Weber]

Wouldn't it be wiser/safer to lower the carriage or rails to accommodate the depth of cut issue, rather than having a surfacing bit over extended. Just thinking about vibration/chatter.

I have an older version of this (https://www.boschtools.com/us/en/boschtools-ocs/plunge-routers-mrp23evs-34700-p/) tool and it has worked well for many years
just a suggestion

[Jamie Buxton]

I don't get it. Why not use your OF1400 in the flattening jig? You just screw it on to the jig, right? So going from handheld use to flattening use is just a matter of a couple screws, right?

[Bill Dufour]

Not sure of your question. I thought most routers could put the collet nose at or lightly below flush. Do you mean spindle travel? maybe you mean how long a bit can be used. With only two bearings not much more then 3-5 inches or whip becomes a problem. A decent drill press has three bearings for the spindle. A vertical milling machine has at least two and often four bearings.
Bill D

[Richard Coers]

So you want a router that extends the collet well below the base? Order a spare set of bearings when you find that router. Hand held routers are not designed to spin these large diameter cutters, well below the base, for long cycle times

[Patrick Varley]

Doesn't answer the question directly, but in looking at the design, seems like they missed an opportunity to make the position of the plate adjustable in relation the rails. That would also solve the problem. As opposed to finding a new router, I wonder if you could fabricate and retrofit some spacers or new carriage side plates to provide crude adjustment in the Z axis.

[Tom Levy]

Maybe look at the other end of the bit and get something a little longer on the cutting side, what's the CL of the current bit? Plenty of options for different length straight bits for cheap you could test.

[Aaron Inami]

The DW618 is a fixed base router. Are you looking for a plunge router? Generally, I have found that any router will usually drop the collet all the way to the material (unless you have an extra thick base mounted).

Maybe you want an extra long bit instead?

Total length: 5-1/2"
https://www.whitesiderouterbits.com/collections/1-2-shank-straight-bits/products/1073-01


Bigger 1" cutting diameter, but total length of 3-3/4":
https://www.whitesiderouterbits.com/collections/1-2-shank-straight-bits/products/1095

[Mike King]

If you are going to dedicate the router to the slab mill, why not buy a CNC router motor and an appropriate router clamp? Less money, more depth, I bet.

Mike

[Jim Becker]

What is the ~ max depth of cut you were able to achieve with the DW618, just to give us a reference?


This isn't about depth of actual cut...it's about having enough range to process one side without having to stop to block up the material further. Depth of cut will never be more than about 6mm unless there's an anomaly on the rough slab to cut through.



I don't get it. Why not use your OF1400 in the flattening jig? You just screw it on to the jig, right? So going from handheld use to flattening use is just a matter of a couple screws, right?

Because I have no desire to mount/dismount my primary router from the jig. Personal preference.


So you want a router that extends the collet well below the base? Order a spare set of bearings when you find that router. Hand held routers are not designed to spin these large diameter cutters, well below the base, for long cycle times

It's a 2" cutter with replaceable inserts, not some big propeller. Not worried about that ... I'm seeking about a half inch more travel than I have now with the DW618. I'm sorry I was not clear about that in the OP. I'm actually am familiar with the issues with long cycle times for router motors which is one reason why my CNC machine has a spindle. Anything shorter than 50" and no wider than 49" will get surfaced on my CNC. This fixture is just for longer material or surfacing off table tops, etc. (It's also a saw table for cutting long things with the tracksaw as well as a big clamping/assembly table)


Maybe look at the other end of the bit and get something a little longer on the cutting side, what's the CL of the current bit? Plenty of options for different length straight bits for cheap you could test.

I already have the longest 2" insert cutter typically available. It's not an issue with CL...it's more about total tool height and at 3.5" in length, that's pretty much where they stop. As noted in another reply, I need about a half inch more vertical travel to reduce the resetting of material.


If you are going to dedicate the router to the slab mill, why not buy a CNC router motor and an appropriate router clamp? Less money, more depth, I bet.



1) Expense...spindles, at least decent ones, are quite expensive and this is an "occasional" tool. 2) I'd have to fabricate a whole "Z axis" to be able to use a spindle with the the fixture.

-----
So to clarify for everyone, I'm interested in knowing about routers in the 12-15 amp categories that have maybe a half inch or more vertical travel than the DW618 I used for my initial go with the fixture. The physical base of any router used on a fixture like this is not touching the material...the material surface is always going to be some distance farther down than the router mounted on the carriage. I can block up the workpiece on the fixture bed within reason, but obviously, as passes are made to flatten and then thickness (from the other side) that distance increases.

[Rick Potter]

I notice no one has mentioned it, but have you considered extensions for your collet. I have no experience with them but some reviews are favorable. Rockler and Infinity both sell them.

[Jim Becker]

I notice no one has mentioned it, but have you considered extensions for your collet. I have no experience with them but some reviews are favorable. Rockler and Infinity both sell them.
Yes, I've considered it, but I'd prefer to get that extra little bit of vertical cutting without the level of runout that typically comes from collet extensions. While it's only a 2" diameter cutter involved, it's still a force multiplier.

[Bert McMahan]

I believe the Triton router can stick the collet out below its base, but I think it locks when it sticks out that far (for 1-wrench bit changes). Maybe you can get one of those and remove the locking mechanism? They're designed to be used as both a normal router and as a router table with integrated router lift since you can adjust the plunge mechanism while the router is inverted.

[Aaron Inami]

For reference, my Bosch 1618 D-Handle has a total movement of 1" from the highest point to the lowest point. The router collet will extend 1/8" past the bottom of the base after the collect has been tightened down. I suspect the current model 1617EVS will have similar movement capability since it's the same fixed-base design.

502765

502766

I have not seen fixed-base routers publish a "up/down movement specification", so you will probably have to rely on other users measurement of their personal routers. You might end up having to go the plunge-router direction if you want extreme up/down movement.

[Jim Becker]

I don't have an issue with using a plunger for this application...'actually figured it might be necessary. Triton and Bosch were on my list to check out.

[Robert LaPlaca]

Sounds like a router in the class of the now extinct PC 7518 would be ideal, how about the Trition TFBR001, the specs make it sound like a clone of the 7518. The router has a 3 1/8” range of depth

[Phillip Mitchell]

This isn't about depth of actual cut...it's about having enough range to process one side without having to stop to block up the material further. Depth of cut will never be more than about 6mm unless there's an anomaly on the rough slab to cut through.

I was using the terminology of depth of cut to reference the full up/down range of the plunge rods on my Makita router. I am away from the shop currently, but I can say that I was able to tighten a 4" cutting length spiral bit (1/2" shank) into the collet without it sticking out the bottom of the base and still had enough range to plunge another 2 3/4" deep to max out the plunge rod range. This seems to be the max I have been able to achieve in any router I've used, though I have not used a Festool router and not sure how much plunge range they have in comparison. The overall length of the bit, and where exactly you choose to tighten it in the collet is obviously somewhat of a variable in this equation.

[Greg Quenneville]

The Triton routers do plunge below the base, and you could remove the spindle lock (spring loaded plunger), but then you would have to rig up something to lock the shaft for bit changes.

I have a Triton and have replaced the bearings twice after lots of inverted panel raising use. I would think that a 2” facemill would similarly tax the spindle bearings.

[Jim Becker]

Sounds like a router in the class of the now extinct PC 7518 would be ideal, how about the Trition TFBR001, the specs make it sound like a clone of the 7518. The router has a 3 1/8” range of depth

I'll take a look at that one, Robert. Thanks.


I was using the terminology of depth of cut to reference the full up/down range of the plunge rods on my Makita router. I am away from the shop currently, but I can say that I was able to tighten a 4" cutting length spiral bit (1/2" shank) into the collet without it sticking out the bottom of the base and still had enough range to plunge another 2 3/4" deep to max out the plunge rod range. This seems to be the max I have been able to achieve in any router I've used, though I have not used a Festool router and not sure how much plunge range they have in comparison. The overall length of the bit, and where exactly you choose to tighten it in the collet is obviously somewhat of a variable in this equation.

Which Makita do you have, Phillip?

[Phillip Mitchell]

I'll take a look at that one, Robert. Thanks.



Which Makita do you have, Phillip?

RP2301FC (3 1/4 hp plunge) Mine is ~5 years old at this point and made in Japan. Maybe that model is still MIJ currently? I find it to be very well built and “tight”, though I have not used Festool routers so have no point of comparison to them.

[Steve Jenkins]

I have a Bosch 1611 plunge. It has about 2” from the nut to the base and plunged about 2”

[Dave Sabo]

Just thinking out in left field............................................. ..a router lift like JessEm, Kreg, Rockler, ect... should give you all the range you need.

Problem might be that some aren't easy to control upside down. The Kreg can be adjusted by hand wrong way round and locked/unlocked with a 13mm wrench. I'll bet it possible on some other models too.

Might need some machining to get it to mount to your jig, but nothing complicated I'm sure.

[Jim Becker]

Dave, I would guess that the mechanism for a "router lift", if it could be used upsides down as you mention, could provide a lot of depth throw for sure. The issue with them is that they likely wouldn't fit between the rails on the fixture I own which already has a finely machined aluminum plate with vertical walls that's mounted on machined "bearings" that move along the rails. It would be a very interesting idea for someone making their own setup, however.

[Dave Sabo]

Dave, I would guess that the mechanism for a "router lift", if it could be used upsides down as you mention, could provide a lot of depth throw for sure. The issue with them is that they likely wouldn't fit between the rails on the fixture I own which already has a finely machined aluminum plate with vertical walls that's mounted on machined "bearings" that move along the rails. It would be a very interesting idea for someone making their own setup, however.

The Kreg can def. be used wrong way round.

I quickly scanned the TT setup and looks to like it’d fit with a few mods. TT already has a router plate ( not sure of dimensions- weren’t listed) . Might have to add a pair of brackets on the perp. axis rail bearing assembly if the lift plate is wider , but should be easy enough. All the big boy router lift plates are finely machined and I’m certain you could drill and tap one accurately enough to affix the TT vertical walls to -just like the TT one. It’s just swapping out one piece of the erector set for another.

I think a router would be the fastest most elegant solution, but I’m not sure you’ll get the throw you’re looking for from any of the ones the TT plate accepts. Hope one does though as it’d be the fastest/ easiest way for sure. Prob. cheaper too .

[Aaron Inami]

I have a Dewalt DW621 plunge router and I measure a maximum 2-1/4" plunge depth. The current model Bosch MRP23EVS has a plunge depth of 3". The Festool 0F1400 has 2-3/4" plunge depth. The Makita 3HP RP2301FC has a plunge depth of 2-3/4". The Triton MOF001 has a plunge depth of 2-5/16".

Dewalt doesn't list this plunge depth, but all those others are published specs. I would say the Bosch is the best result with having the longest plunge depth and is a full 15A motor. It is not that heavy compared to others and it's half as expensive as the Festool. Bosch has been designing really nice tools overall.

[Jim Becker]

Thanks Aaron. I'll definitely have to check out that particular Bosch as it also has a very attractive price. The fixed base Triton goes only a hair farther and the D-handle fixed base might make things interesting for mounting. (I had to take apart the DW618 D-handle base to make it work with existing mounting holes on the TT fixture)

[Edward Weber]

Thanks Aaron. I'll definitely have to check out that particular Bosch as it also has a very attractive price. The fixed base Triton goes only a hair farther and the D-handle fixed base might make things interesting for mounting. (I had to take apart the DW618 D-handle base to make it work with existing mounting holes on the TT fixture)
The same Bosch model I linked to 23 posts ago

[Dave Sabo]

The same Bosch model I linked to 23 posts ago



sure, but since you left out the model number and the headline " 3 inch plunge depth" it got lost in the weeds.

[Jim Becker]

The same Bosch model I linked to 23 posts ago
Sorry, but the embedded link just didn't show up on my screen with my eyes. I only see it now that you've mentioned it...

[Edward Weber]

Sorry, but the embedded link just didn't show up on my screen with my eyes. I only see it now that you've mentioned it...

I was just musing that It just amazes me how these threads always seem to circle back on themselves and then start to repeat.
Hope it didn't come accross the wrong way

[Jim Becker]

No worries, Edward. I at least got some good suggestions in the end to consider should I decide to spend a few shekels for a router that's "ideal" for this fixture.

[Chris Parks]

I'd question how long an air cooled router will last for really long run times. There is good reasons why CNC spindles are available water cooled, long life, far far less noisy and are reasonably priced but they do require a VFD which adds far better speed control plus the more versatile ER collet system. I installed a cheap Chinese water cooled spindle into a router table for a woodworking school about 5 years ago, it is used every day and has never given any trouble at all.

[Jim Becker]

I'd question how long an air cooled router will last for really long run times. There is good reasons why CNC spindles are available water cooled, long life, far far less noisy and are reasonably priced but they do require a VFD which adds far better speed control plus the more versatile ER collet system. I installed a cheap Chinese water cooled spindle into a router table for a woodworking school about 5 years ago, it is used every day and has never given any trouble at all.
The HSD spindle on my CNC is air cooled. Even the largest ones on the biggest machines my manufacturer (Camaster) produces are air cooled. That's not atypical with commercial CNC machines, either. It's a myth that water cooled is better than air cooled with spindles...how the specific spindle is designed and setup is what counts and both methods work equally well. That said, I agree that a router motor isn't the best solution for long run times for flattening slabs. Commercial, dedicated flattening tables typically use induction motors for this purpose rather than routers or even spindles, since it's a one speed operation. When I was running the three slabs for my table project, I actively monitored the DW618 for heat as well as blew out any dust between passes. I kept run times to a half hour...frankly, I needed a break at that point myself to grab a sip of water, etc. I will never be processing a lot of material on this setup and my goal with the question is just to identify a potential router choice that has more vertical extension to reduce the need to physically reposition the workpieces as they are milled off and get thinner. Market research, if you will.

[Greg Parrish]

Jim, I can't remember how big the table top slabs were but why not flatten them with your CNC? Couldn't be that difficult to program the cut and seems like you have a pretty good sized CNC if I remember correctly. Realize your CNC may still not be long enough, but maybe you could flatten 1/2 then rotate and do the other 1/2. Just curious.

[Jim Becker]

Jim, I can't remember how big the table top slabs were but why not flatten them with your CNC? Couldn't be that difficult to program the cut and seems like you have a pretty good sized CNC if I remember correctly. Realize your CNC may still not be long enough, but maybe you could flatten 1/2 then rotate and do the other 1/2. Just curious.
I thought I addressed that. They are eight foot slabs and I have a four foot CNC. You cannot "tile" for flattening with any effective results. Tiling is a great technique for creating things longer than the CNC machine, but you need to be starting out with material that's already flat and at thickness to do that because you have to support it at the very precise and consistent height for it's entire length through the whole job. 'Can't really do that for an uneven, wonky, multi-dimensional slab of wood. :)

Now anything 49" or shorter in length and no wider than 49" will get processed on the CNC for sure. The table setup is only for "big stuff" which is not a constant need for me. What it does allow me to do is surface long and wide stock...I hate, hate, hate ripping down material so it will "fit" on one of the traditional machines for jointing and thicknessing. Personal preference.

[Greg Parrish]

You probably covered it and I missed it. For some reason I thought your Camaster was 4x8 or 5x10. Makes sense though.


I thought I addressed that. They are eight foot slabs and I have a four foot CNC. You cannot "tile" for flattening with any effective results. Tiling is a great technique for creating things longer than the CNC machine, but you need to be starting out with material that's already flat and at thickness to do that because you have to support it at the very precise and consistent height for it's entire length through the whole job. 'Can't really do that for an uneven, wonky, multi-dimensional slab of wood. :)

Now anything 49" or shorter in length and no wider than 49" will get processed on the CNC for sure. The table setup is only for "big stuff" which is not a constant need for me. What it does allow me to do is surface long and wide stock...I hate, hate, hate ripping down material so it will "fit" on one of the traditional machines for jointing and thicknessing. Personal preference.

[Jim Becker]

You probably covered it and I missed it. For some reason I thought your Camaster was 4x8 or 5x10. Makes sense though.
I wish I would have paid the relatively small amount (maybe $3K) to have gone right to the 8' machine back in 2018, but at the time, I was in the old shop and things were pretty space constrained. I could have made it work, but...that's hindsight. I chose the 4x4 and in general, it does what I need it to do. Getting larger now would be a "whole lot more money"...many multiples of what I've invested in the multipurpose table that includes slab flattening capability.

[Chris Parks]

It's a myth that water cooled is better than air cooled with spindles

I think it is a myth that Chinese spindles are not as good as spindles made elsewhere, people assume that because they are made in China things then it must be sub standard in quality. I source both VFD's and spindles form China and have zero problems with either.

[Aaron Inami]

Water cooled systems can be somewhat better than air cooled, but this is not a significant amount. In terms of themal performance, the only area where water cooled is significantly better is the time to steady state (essentially how well the system cools until the system is saturated). This is because water cooled systems have a larger mass to absorb heat before hitting max heat saturation (all the water and the radiator). See this video at the 3:24 mark. It's talking about computer CPU coolers, but the general idea of thermal performance is the same for router/spindle motors.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VzXHUTqE7E&s=224


The one benefit of water cooled systems is when you have a sealed system (such as a router table). The air can get warm inside that small router motor cabinet and the air-cooled router motors are just recycling that constantly warming air. Jessem has just recently engineered an air-cooled solution for this by using external air ducts:

https://jessem.com/products/jessems-pow-r-tek-sr%E2%84%A2-router-with-variable-control-box

https://jessem.com/products/copy-of-1-3-8-insert-ring-for-template-guide-bushing

However, when using a hand-held router in free-air (like what Jim is doing with his slab surfacing), I don't think you'll be having any major problems in general.

[Jim Becker]

I think it is a myth that Chinese spindles are not as good as spindles made elsewhere, people assume that because they are made in China things then it must be sub standard in quality. I source both VFD's and spindles form China and have zero problems with either.
I agree fully. There are quality products made in most places...as well as duds. It's all about the design, production and inspection process. :) I also made no negative representation about spindles made anywhere specific. :)

[Chris Parks]

For my use the WC spindle has two advantages, noise is so low that it can hardly be heard, it is only the cutter that can be heard so when doing long runs the lack of motor noise is a major advantage and until you experience the difference it can't be appreciated. The second advantage is being water cooled it is a sealed unit and that means the dust extraction can be designed differently, dusty working conditions such as slab flattening and CNC work means that the dust can be ignored as far as the motor goes. On my router table the spindle partially sits in the dust extraction chute, that can't do that with an air cooled spindle and using that design means there is no dust left on the table at all but that is another discussion for another time. The thermal side of the equation is not something I have ever worried about but WC spindles would not heat soak like the AC spindle would after it is turned off.

[Jim Becker]

I absolutely appreciate the points you're making Chris. If I actually used my router table with any level of frequency, I'd consider replacing the PC7518 if it died with a spindle for sure and the point you make about the sealed nature of a water cooled unit is absolutely a good and valid decision factor.