Shaper: play between arbor and cutter head

[andrew whicker]

Hi,

I made this short video to show the play I have between cutter body and arbor
I'm assuming this means a new arbor?

If so, what dia does the arbor for a 1 1/4" set up need to be? Is the cutter body 1.25" or the arbor?

Video: https://youtu.be/OzMKOHIfMl0

[Paul Haus]

I'm a tad confused with your video/question. You have a cutter head that has some apparent play between the cutter head and the spindle, correct? Is this the only one with the play in it or do your other cutterheads also have the same play? Now the spindle appears to have a sleeve or spacer to make it fit the shaft, so do you have any other ones you can try? What size is the current spindle in the shaper and what is the opening size of the cutterhead?
IMO you need to do some clarification of your setup prior to looking for answers.

[Bill Dufour]

The play is too low to measure with digital calipers. You need to use a micrometer. For 1.25 you need to buy a two inch micrometer and a one inch standard. If the standard says it is one inch it is probably not accurate enough for the job. It should be like 1.0001 " long or similar accuracy. Good luck measuring the bore accurately enough to be meaningful.
Off hand I would guess 0.003-0.005 play.
If you can feel the play it is too much.
Bill D

[andrew whicker]

I was thinking of measuring the play with a test indicator.

This is a bigger problem than it appears because I have to make a tool to remove the arbor before considering a replacement. Then I have to worry about the arbor itself. I was thinking of having a local machinist build me one vs looking for one that fits but maybe even with this old Italian I can find new arbors that fit.

Yeah, there's no way for me to measure the bore. And to be frank, why? The only reason would be if I didn't trust two brand new heads from Whitehill which seems over the top. You can do it with a bore gage that is basically a rod you twist to touch the walls of the bore. Then you take that out and measure with micrometers.

[Mel Fulks]

I wouldn’t worry about it, and in employments I’ve seen management say , “Don’t worry about it They measured everything when
they made it”. Now if you bought it from a guy who was whittling it out on a street corner ….don’t buy any more. Put a another
spacer on and all will be good. Half staff is only for the really bloody accidents.

[andrew whicker]

I have a Starrett 1 inch micrometer, but nothing to measure 1.25.

Again, the play is what matters. And the standard sizes. That's why I was asking what the std size of an 1.25 arbor is. I'll Google around and see what I can find. I'm assuming the spindle is 1.25 inches and the bores are over sized slightly.

[Joe Calhoon]

European mfgs use a H6 or 7 ISO tolerance on cutters. Cannot remember exactly. I know my US made cutters fit slightly tighter on shafts so I suspect their tolerances are tighter. They all work.
looking at your video I think your shaft has been spun a few times. And the table rings abused a lot. Run it, if it works don’t worry about it.
Your not running a Weinig Conturex there!

[andrew whicker]

Fair enough.

I don't know why they were using metal hammers on the rings...

[Richard Coers]

I don't see any play between the cutter and the shaft. You are putting a rotational force on the cutter, not a straight push into and away from the shaft. The sound appears to be in a pulley or the drive of the shaper. Shaper shaft appears to be just fine to me. Check keys and set screws on the drive system.

[andrew whicker]

It might be hard to see in the video, but it's definitely moving a bit.

[Joe Calhoon]

It’s typical to have a very slight rocking motion.
Very slight! Without rocking just moving side to side if there is movement it might be too much.
Hard to put all that in words…
Have you checked runout?

[brent stanley]

Spindles for shapers should be done to h7 which gives you none over but a little under is ok. The lower case letter (the "h" in this example) signifies the shaft, where the upper case the hole. The tooling is often a bit larger. Sometimes bearings are made right on the money and if your shaft is on the larger side of the tolerance range (+0.000) it can be a challenge to get on. There will be a wee bit of movement sometimes, the old school moulders got around it with tapered settups, modern kit with hydrobore.

[Joe Calhoon]

Brent,
H7 is for the bore of the cutter. g6 is the shaft tolerance.

[Bill Dufour]

1.25 is under 32mm.

H7 is -0 to -25 micro meters
g6 is +9 to +25 micro meter
Not sure what a micro meter is .
Bill D

[Bill Dufour]

micro meter is a micron. so 0.001 mm
Bill D

[Paul Haus]

Bills comment brought up another thought: is one thing like the spindle metric and the other like the cutterhead SAE? Again, more details would be beneficial.

[brent stanley]

There is a lot more to it all because as the shaft sizes get larger, the classification changes its letter designation even for a given range of numerical tolerances. Or said another way, a given letter designation actually means different numbers for different shaft/bore sizes. And 30mm and 1 1/4" might be in different classes, and 40mm and 50mm could be different again. I got my numbers from Whitehill but can't remember what shaft size that was for.

[brent stanley]

Bills comment brought up another thought: is one thing like the spindle metric and the other like the cutterhead SAE? Again, more details would be beneficial.

Probably the other way around, the block would be metric based.

[Greg Quenneville]

I have Whitehill blocks in both 30mm and 1.25”. They fit their respective spindles just right…no detectable play, but they slide slowly and smoothly onto the stack.

Greg

[Joe Calhoon]

1.25 is under 32mm.

H7 is -0 to -25 micro meters
g6 is +9 to +25 micro meter
Not sure what a micro meter is .
Bill D

Bill, not sure I agree with your + and - . g 6 for the shaft in the example of 30mm, 1.25” and 40mm diameters can be exact size or in range of micrometers slightly smaller. H7 for the bore sizes is always larger in micrometers.

Andrew’s shaper looks Euro to me and even with a 1.25 shaft they would be using ISO standards. I suspect if his fit is off it’s the shaft. From the score marks in his video looks like it has been spun many times.

[brent stanley]

Bill, not sure I agree with your + and - . g 6 for the shaft in the example of 30mm, 1.25” and 40mm diameters can be exact size or in range of micrometers slightly smaller. H7 for the bore sizes is always larger in micrometers.

Andrew’s shaper looks Euro to me and even with a 1.25 shaft they would be using ISO standards. I suspect if his fit is off it’s the shaft. From the score marks in his video looks like it has been spun many times.

Joe, it's a confusing world, sometimes people refer to the size as deviation from a number, and sometimes as size to provide clearance. Ie the shaft for g6 itself is under a perfect number (-) but made to provide clearance (+) to a hypothetical perfect bore. Doesn't make it easy.

[Joe Calhoon]

Brent, not confusing at all. Remember H7 is for the bore not the shaft. Plus is bigger, minus is smaller.
see attached screen shot.
502514

[brent stanley]

Brent, not confusing at all. Remember H7 is for the bore not the shaft. Plus is bigger, minus is smaller.
see attached screen shot.
502514

Joe as I already said above the capital letter (upper case, in this case "H") refers to the tooling that goes on the shaft, ie. the bore. What I'm saying is that if you spend enough time in the machining world, you will run into people will refer to that the opposite way. They mean the same thing, they're just referring from a different point. I don't know for sure, but just guessing that it may be what Bill was doing.

[andrew whicker]

If I do get a replacement spindle... I'm guessing I should get one with a female thread on top so that I can run a flush cutter? Is this a design you guys use much / wish you had?

[andrew whicker]

Mine is a 1 1/4" spindle...

[brent stanley]

If I do get a replacement spindle... I'm guessing I should get one with a female thread on top so that I can run a flush cutter? Is this a design you guys use much / wish you had?

Before I had twin tenon cutters I flush mounted mine a lot for tenons one side at a time, so it is a nice feature. Double discs are "better" but with care in good hands, perfect results can be achieved with a flush block for tenoning. Did your combi come with a washer and cap screw for that? Many modern spindles for new machines come with some version of that system. I've had many spindles made for different machines over the years and have always had that system made.

[Joe Calhoon]

If I do get a replacement spindle... I'm guessing I should get one with a female thread on top so that I can run a flush cutter? Is this a design you guys use much / wish you had?

Andrew, I had that many years ago with a Delta Shaper (1975). On the plus side for cutting one side tenons you can cut long tenons without the shaft interfering and you will save money on cutters. The negative side it is a pain and subject to many inconsistencies due to material thickness, chips under the workpiece etc. if you are a hobby shop OK but if you do this for a living it will add many variables and setup time.

[Phillip Mitchell]

You will likely need to get a new spindle made (at a machine shop or otherwise) as opposed to finding one already made…unless you find another donor Griggio of similar age and size with the same spindle specs, if you’re going down the road of looking into spindle replacement...

You could also consider Prolock for spindle replacement, though I’d imagine you would be in the ~ $1200-1500 range for that. I had a replacement 1 1/4”, 6” tall “standard” spindle with spacers and top nut quoted from Bobby at Woodworker Toolworks for around half that amount not long ago, fyi.

I’m sure others will add to this, but mounting a cutterblock at the very top of a spindle would call for a shorter overall shaft length ie: “stub” spindle and is typically in addition to a normal length spindle. I have not run into a situation where I really wanted that specific option personally, though I’m sure they exist in certain situations if you didn’t want to buy more task specific tooling like a pair of tenoning discs.

When you say flush cutter are you talking about template work with a bearing / ring fence or similar? On my (smaller) Griggio I can run a 4”x4” helical carbide head with a matching OD bearing on top and the hole that the quill retracts into is larger diameter than that so I can lower the spindle enough for the extra cutters to retract well below the table for top bearing work. I do not have one but have seen Joe and many others post photos of this type of work with a ring fence / dead collar in place which performs the same function as a matching bearing (for the template to reference)

Not shown here, but good to have some type of dust / safety hood in place around as much of the cutterhead for DC and safety reasons. Still working on that in my setup as this machine is new to me.

[brent stanley]

Phillip makes a good point, that if you plan on tenoning a lot, it's a good idea to do it on a stub shaft as it puts the load closer to the big top bearing. Can be done otherwise of course, but I'll say a stubby is better and is how I do it. Machining time is often a lot lower with a simple bored and threaded hole in the top so might be less expensive. You can get professional quality results tenoning this way ( people do with dado stacks in 120v cabinet saws, and hand saws and chisels before that!) but for larger volumes double discs will pay for themselves. It all depends on what you in your shop do a lot of. It's a balance every shop will find differently.

[brent stanley]

If I do get a replacement spindle... I'm guessing I should get one with a female thread on top so that I can run a flush cutter? Is this a design you guys use much / wish you had?

If you do have a spindle made, it's good to give them your factory one so they can copy the bottom part that ought to be undamaged. This will be critical to fit. Also, if you notice on the bottom and top of most cutterheads there is a small chamfer along the bore. The inside "root" at the bottom of the new shaft needs to be smaller than this so the blocks sit down where they're supposed to. I always give the machine shop a new cutter block to use for test fitting. Nothing like the real thing to go along with number specs for testing

[andrew whicker]

Before I had twin tenon cutters I flush mounted mine a lot for tenons one side at a time, so it is a nice feature. Double discs are "better" but with care in good hands, perfect results can be achieved with a flush block for tenoning. Did your combi come with a washer and cap screw for that? Many modern spindles for new machines come with some version of that system. I've had many spindles made for different machines over the years and have always had that system made.

Mine did not because I don't have a shaft for it. It's an interesting idea. As people mentioned below (and something I was thinking about already) I would probably want a shorter shaft. I do have a long enough shaft that adding a lot of weight to the top seemed a bit goofy.

[andrew whicker]

I would say my main goal with the machine (short term) is to be able to do two things:

- cabinetry doors (biggest need and want)
- custom man doors if the work comes my way

Would like to be able to process (medium term):
- short runs of custom trim


Long term I'd like to have two machines w/ the same arbor (1 1/4") so that I can have a female and male machine.

[brent stanley]

Mine did not because I don't have a shaft for it. It's an interesting idea. As people mentioned below (and something I was thinking about already) I would probably want a shorter shaft. I do have a long enough shaft that adding a lot of weight to the top seemed a bit goofy.

Yup, good thinking. Down low as possible is always a good philosophy.

[brent stanley]

I would say my main goal with the machine (short term) is to be able to do two things:

- cabinetry doors (biggest need and want)
- custom man doors if the work comes my way

Would like to be able to process (medium term):
- short runs of custom trim


Long term I'd like to have two machines w/ the same arbor (1 1/4") so that I can have a female and male machine.

I may have missed it, what is the machine you're using again?

[Richard Coers]

It might be hard to see in the video, but it's definitely moving a bit.
Isn't a bit still not defined or measured yet? At the rpm a shaper runs, a couple of thousandths will completely go unnoticed. Actual running time on scrap will solve all the guessing and discussion.

[Greg Quenneville]

It might be possible to have your existing spindle metal sprayed and then ground back to spec. I am not sure that the total cost would be less, but it would involve much less machining than creating a new spindle from scratch. Otherwise, you might be able to have it turned down to 30mm and then use widely available top hat bushings on your 1.25” cutter blocks.

Greg

[brent stanley]

It might be possible to have your existing spindle metal sprayed and then ground back to spec. I am not sure that the total cost would be less, but it would involve much less machining than creating a new spindle from scratch. Otherwise, you might be able to have it turned down to 30mm and then use widely available top hat bushings on your 1.25” cutter blocks.

Greg

Yeah, would be interesting to see the cost comparison. Often the production spindles supplied by manufacturers are cylindrically ground. The ones I've had made were done on CNC and they turned out great.

[Mel Fulks]

The worst spindles I used were SCMI. We sometimes wrapped them with that white plumber tape for extra non- excentricity .
The things I made as a kid from Play-Doh were were much better than the SCMI spindles.

[andrew whicker]

It might be possible to have your existing spindle metal sprayed and then ground back to spec. I am not sure that the total cost would be less, but it would involve much less machining than creating a new spindle from scratch. Otherwise, you might be able to have it turned down to 30mm and then use widely available top hat bushings on your 1.25” cutter blocks.

Greg

Like HVOF? hmmm

[Bill Dufour]

Spray chrome?
ISO tolerances are the same for 30-40mm shaft diameter.
First link is pretty straight forward. The second one is too detailed for most. I think it was someones PHD thesis.
Bill D.

https://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/Info-Pages-ISO-Limits/c4746_4779/index.html?page=1
https://home.iitk.ac.in/~anupams/ME251/tolerances_tables.pdf

[brent stanley]

Spray chrome?
ISO tolerances are the same for 30-40mm shaft diameter.
First link is pretty straight forward. The second one is too detailed for most. I think it was someones PHD thesis.
Bill D.

https://simplybearings.co.uk/shop/Info-Pages-ISO-Limits/c4746_4779/index.html?page=1
https://home.iitk.ac.in/~anupams/ME251/tolerances_tables.pdf

If you look at the column header the 30mm point is the break point but the smaller class is inclusive of 30mm, and the other does not include 30mm, so annoyingly as I understand it 30mm and 1.25" are actually in different categories and the g6 numbers are different.

[andrew whicker]

In the oil and gas world we sprayed shafts all the time with tungsten carbide to regain original specs. Machine down .015" or so, coat, grind to spec. It was a few grand per shaft we sent and we had pretty big shafts. Not sure they would even pick up the phone for little ol me.

https://www.fusionhouston.com/hvof-houston/

I guess one thing it sounds like I could do is have the shaft turned down to 30 mm and use top hat spacers for my 1 1/4" heads. I'll need new top hat spacers for my Weinig heads too in that case.

[andrew whicker]

Griggio T45 (9 HP, 1 1/4 spindle, tilting spindle)

[brent stanley]

In the oil and gas world we sprayed shafts all the time with tungsten carbide to regain original specs. Machine down .015" or so, coat, grind to spec. It was a few grand per shaft we sent and we had pretty big shafts. Not sure they would even pick up the phone for little ol me.

https://www.fusionhouston.com/hvof-houston/

I guess one thing it sounds like I could do is have the shaft turned down to 30 mm and use top hat spacers for my 1 1/4" heads. I'll need new top hat spacers for my Weinig heads too in that case.

On my smaller machines I do use T-Bushes fairly often but it really is best to have the bores match the spindles. The Ts have their own set of clearances in them so adds error which could show up in profile/counter profile work.. Could consider having it turned down to 30mm and while it's in the shop have them make a 1.25 for you using the specs from the bottom of that one. Up here in Ontario it's around $350 for a one-off spindle.

[Robert M Richardson]

I worked up the attached table to summarize some of the info in this thread. As others have pointed out the ISO tolerance system uses capital letters to specify hole or bore tolerances and small ones to specify shaft sizes both based on the nominal size. The H tolerance is very common and indicates that the hole will be as a minimum the nominal size plus some amount a machining tolerance indicated by the associated number. The small letter say g specifies that the shaft (arbor) will as a maximum be the nominal size minus some amount and as a minimum be the nominal minus some larger amount to provide machining tolerance. I have a new shaper with an 1-1/4 arbor which measures 1.2494. No tooling as yet but the arbor spacers measure 1.2501. Both measurements are within the H7 g6 specification which is a common one. Measuring to tenths is tricky so I may be off by a tenth or so.

[brent stanley]

I worked up the attached table to summarize some of the info in this thread. As others have pointed out the ISO tolerance system uses capital letters to specify hole or bore tolerances and small ones to specify shaft sizes both based on the nominal size. The H tolerance is very common and indicates that the hole will be as a minimum the nominal size plus some amount a machining tolerance indicated by the associated number. The small letter say g specifies that the shaft (arbor) will as a maximum be the nominal size minus some amount and as a minimum be the nominal minus some larger amount to provide machining tolerance. I have a new shaper with an 1-1/4 arbor which measures 1.2494. No tooling as yet but the arbor spacers measure 1.2501. Both measurements are within the H7 g6 specification which is a common one. Measuring to tenths is tricky so I may be off by a tenth or so.

Thanks Robert, that was my understanding too. That 30mm change point is inconvenient for shaper users! I have spindles made to the larger end of the range but I always supply new tooling to use as a test piece for the machinist so it may be snugger, but it will always go on, won't stick if the shaft warms up and is a bit more accurate. It can help with multi component/stacked tooling for keeping their bits lined up properly with respect to each other, but is less forgiving to getting dinged up if you're clumsy with the wrench!

[Greg Quenneville]

…Up here in Ontario it's around $350 for a one-off spindle.

Wow that’s cheap. The machine shops around here would be 3 x that much. In USD too.

[brent stanley]

Wow that’s cheap. The machine shops around here would be 3 x that much. In USD too.. I bet that number is from 3 years ago now though!