New car “ fees”. Yikes!

[dennis thompson]

Thinking about a new car, so I asked the dealer about any fees.:eek:
His response was: our “ only” ( quotes are mine) fees are $1695 pre reconditioning fee and $799 documentation fee, the “ only”other fees are sales tax and DMV fee”
He didn’t choose to tell me the last two fees and I can guess the sales tax would be about another $3,000 and DMV say $300.

These fees ad up to $5,794…yikes!

[Steve Jenkins]

I can relate. We had both our cars totaled last month so had to replace them. Won’t get my cargo van until Oct. or so.

[Lee Schierer]

At least they didn't charge the ADP fee.


ADP = Added Dealer Profit

[Brian Elfert]

Why would a new car need reconditioning? That fee just seems like it goes straight to the dealer's bottom line. Documentation fees are another profit center. They used to be reasonable at $100 to $200. I highly doubt their costs have gone up that much to need an $799 doc fee.

[Keegan Shields]

Make sure you check the invoice also. I’ve seen charges for “nitrogen filled tires”, “custom window tint”, and “interior stain protectant” (they sprayed Scotchgard supposedly).

If they want the sale, they’ll remove those charges. Otherwise go somewhere else.

[Curt Harms]

At least they didn't charge the ADP fee.


ADP = Added Dealer Profit

Sure they did. They just didn't call it that.

[Malcolm McLeod]

...
These fees ad up to $5,794…yikes!

I strolled by a showroom Jeep Gladiator about 3-4 months ago. I didn't write it down, but I recall dealer wanted $19k for the lift/tires/wheel package and another $19k for 'market normalization'. ...Oh, you want the vehicle too?!

But karma is a b!&#$... I am casually shopping and several seemingly credible sources are predicting a (car) market crash by year end. I can wait.

[Bill Howatt]

I'm waiting for a huge run to electric which may dump a lot of used gas vehicles on the market and, of course, I intend to fan the flames by telling everyone that gas is bad and to get rid of their car. :)

[Jim Becker]

Be really careful about "fees" being added by dealers. Many of these are pure profit moves by the dealer that make up for the "discount" they said they would provide. Refuse to pay them and shop other dealers. You want the lowest "out the door" price for the vehicle. IE, call "bull-excrement" when it's justified.

I recently ordered a new vehicle and because I actually read things before signing, I caught a $299 fee slipped in for "etching". It wasn't on the final version. ;)

[Stan Calow]

Supply and demand - its a bear, and sometimes it eats you.

[Bruce Wrenn]

Consider ordering car thru a third party (Costco, BJ's, etc.) or buy a used leased vehicle instead.

[Lee DeRaud]

Documentation fees are another profit center. They used to be reasonable at $100 to $200. I highly doubt their costs have gone up that much to need an $799 doc fee.
It did seem like the last car I bought required more paperwork than the first house I bought.

There's also the expense of keeping that dot-matrix printer running to handle the standard multipart sales contract forms...no way that number will go anywhere but up.

[Barry McFadden]

I guess we are lucky up here in Ontario. We have something called OMVIC which states it's against the law to charge anything more than the advertised price except sales tax and license fee.

[Kev Williams]

Wanna have some fun at a dealership? Get all interested in some vehicle, work on getting the price down a bit, and when they get the point where the salesman sez "I'll go grab our finance guy/gal and be right back", hit 'em with this line:

"Don't bother, I'm paying cash"...

I didn't realize this was verboten when buying a car these days until last January when my trusty, no-problems-whatsoever-for-7-1/2 years '04 Chebby Venture Van I paid all of $1300 for at a dealership no less, suddenly developed a nasty electrical problem that will likely cost way more to fix than I paid for it...

I've always had an affinity for Cadillac Escalade's, drove a couple in the past, so when the van died, I started looking-- and found this one:
502184 --I found an ad for it online for $18,200. AWD Platinum version, only option available is a block heater. Always liked the pearl white too, so the wife and I went in to check it out...
Saw it in the parking lot, looked pretty good to me. Went inside, found a salesman, took it for a test drive...

When we got back inside, I asked if there was any wiggle room on the 18-2 price. Guy looked at me like I was speaking Swahili...

"18-2?" he says, we're asking 22 for it!"--- then proceeds to show me this ad on his computer-
502185
Now, I can't find the other ad I found at the moment, but I DID print out a copy of it at the time and took it in. He takes it and says "I'll be right back"...

Seems their ad guy didn't get around to raising the price on the AutoTrader or whoever-it-was's ad I found. I says 'so just pretend you sold it last week before you raised the price, no problem'... I don't think he found that very funny ;) "Well, we're taking almost a $4000 hit as it is, so I don't think we'll be able to come down any"...

Ok, so even though I think it's ridiculous for a dealership to whine about losing an 'invisible' 4 grand just because used car prices spiked a week before I got there, I explain that I like and want the Caddy, and I'm fine with 18-2.

So then he asks the question:
"How do you want to finance it?"

"--I'm not. I'm just going to pay for it."
His reaction was only slightly less dramatic as this avatar-> 502194

He left for a few minutes. Me and the wife discussed the situation, as we were both somewhat perplexed at the goings-on...

He comes back with a question: "Is it possible you would consider financing, and making FOUR payments? If you make four payments, we can get our kickback from the finance company and make some money on this deal"...
--I kept my mouth shut, but really wanted to remind him that if they'd sold it a week ago, 4 grand less money would've 'made some money', nothing had changed but market value...

The wife gave me 'that look', she'd about had enough theatrics, but I wanted the Caddy, and gave in. And I made 4 payments, to MY credit union, and now I own it. AND our credit score hit 850 again :D I think the total interest was like $150, which I felt like I could live with.

But I did expect much more from a dealership, especially a Cadillac dealer. But oh well, I DO like my new ride, and it's paid for! :)
502195

[Kevin Jenness]

I had to buy a new car recently after my Volvo tried to occupy the same space as a semi truck. The market is nuts- 2 year old vehicles w/ 10-20k miles are listed for as much as the msrp of new ones, the dealers feel entitled to an "addendum" of thousands of dollars, popular models are presold and often require a deposit and good luck finding a base model of anything. I did luck out and found a new Kia Niro hybrid on a dealer's lot.

At first the sales person wanted a $3k upcharge, $2k worth of undercoating, floor mats and a lowjack system so they can track you down if you miss a payment, plus an $800 document fee including title, registration and an hour's worth of paperwork which she claimed was mandated by law and non-negotiable. I decided to let her win on the document fee but managed to get everything else removed after her manager talked to his manager and a series of revised invoices netted out at msrp plus $800 and sales tax. She complained that she would make only $100 on the sale (for an hour or so of her time, not terribly bad in my world) and intimated that her children would go hungry that day. After all that I had to go home and take a shower.

Not a lot of fun, but as long as you are willing to walk you have the upper hand. The worst stories are about people who drive their new car off the lot before the financing is approved, then are rejected and have the new one repossessed after their old vehicle has been resold. They wind up walking too.

[Larry Frank]

It feels so good to get a new car but the Dealership hypocrisy spoils it.

[Curt Harms]

I strolled by a showroom Jeep Gladiator about 3-4 months ago. I didn't write it down, but I recall dealer wanted $19k for the lift/tires/wheel package and another $19k for 'market normalization'. ...Oh, you want the vehicle too?!

But karma is a b!&#$... I am casually shopping and several seemingly credible sources are predicting a (car) market crash by year end. I can wait.

I'd read that companies like Carvana and similar are sitting on inventory purchased at high prices and are of course not in a hurry to sell at a loss. Interest costs do add up though.

[Alan Lightstone]

My favorite negotiating tactic is to bring a thick book (I found Tom Clancy novels work well), put my feet up on his desk, read the book, and never move. Not to go to the bathroom, get coffee, nothing. Just occupy his desk/selling space.

Usually 5-10 trips of the salesman to the only person who really counts (his sales manager), each time coming back for less and less money. I kill several hours of his day, and am squatting at his desk, so he can't take care of other customers. Pretty well works every time. Then telling him you'll pay cash at the end is great too.

A friend of mine has an even better tactic in South Florida. He takes the salesman outside, and never leaves outside. Always does this at the end of the month in brutal South Florida heat and humidity. He tells me after an hour or so, the salesman is begging him to buy the car. He said it's worked about a dozen times over the years.

Their time is their money. Waste as much of it as possible.

Really nice to buy a Tesla. Set price online, no negotiating, no haggling. Their offer for my used Tesla was way low. I asked him if it was negotiable. He said no. Went to CarMax and got $5K more.

[Jim Becker]

I'm thankful I don't have to do that kind of stuff to get the price I want. I walk in, knock on the sales manager's door and say I'm ready to buy the next one and will it be invoice price again? He says yes and the rest is more or less negotiation of the trade so I can decide if that's acceptable considering any sales tax benefit or if selling it elsewhere is the way to go. Then again, the vehicle I just ordered is the fifth that he's been involved with. And we got our dog Oliver there, too. :) :D

[Alan Lightstone]

I'm thankful I don't have to do that kind of stuff to get the price I want. I walk in, knock on the sales manager's door and say I'm ready to buy the next one and will it be invoice price again? He says yes and the rest is more or less negotiation of the trade so I can decide if that's acceptable considering any sales tax benefit or if selling it elsewhere is the way to go. Then again, the vehicle I just ordered is the fifth that he's been involved with. And we got our dog Oliver there, too. :) :D
Was Oliver a trade-in too, or low mileage?

I would go through the same nonsense buying a Lexus a long-while back after having bought 7 of them. Didn't change their approach one bit.

[Jim Becker]

Was Oliver a trade-in too, or low mileage?

Subaru is a big supporter of animal rescues, especially dogs. We met Oliver at the dealership showroom in mid-April. Took home a Chewbaru Outbark toy and some other swag and he showed up at our house the next day after a very swift adoption approval.

502232


I would go through the same nonsense buying a Lexus a long-while back after having bought 7 of them. Didn't change their approach one bit.

I don't take any of the all too frequent caa-caa that car dealer sales folks try to do. I cut it off really quickly and they either listen or I walk. Fortunately, I've not had that issue with the Subaru dealership and the same with their sister Jeep location not quite next door. I go in prepared, knowing what I want in detail and how much I'm willing to pay for it. I negotiate the trade in a similar way...I know what the range should be as well as what the vehicle is worth for private sale and sale to CarMax, etc. If they low-ball, I counter offer, but I do so without being ridiculous. There's no point in nickel and diming. I get something and they still get something. One of the reasons I deal with the sales manager (aside from knowing him a long time as he was our original sales person) is that the sales folks can't actually sell a car anyway...they have no decision making authority. So I bypass them and go right to the guy who can approve the deal I want.

[Patty Hann]

How do you all handle it when you have a trade-in?
From what I have read the sequence of events (so to speak) is finalize the price of the the vehicle you are buying, THEN negotiate the price for the trade-in.
But twice now when buying a car I've experienced "we have to establish the trade-in price first."
And I know why... the trade-in price will determine the price of the vehicle that is for sale.
So for those of you that have trade-in, when the guy says "Do you have trade-in" how do you answer? "No", and then at the end say you "changed your mind? " .

[Brian Runau]

Negotiate a final bottom line dollar value, all in, except taxes. You'll find out how bad they want the addons. I bought our last two cars online via email, after test driving them. Brian

[Alan Lightstone]

How do you all handle it when you have a trade-in?
From what I have read the sequence of events (so to speak) is finalize the price of the the vehicle you are buying, THEN negotiate the price for the trade-in.
But twice now when buying a car I've experienced "we have to establish the trade-in price first."
And I know why... the trade-in price will determine the price of the vehicle that is for sale.
So for those of you that have trade-in, when the guy says "Do you have trade-in" how do you answer? "No", and then at the end say you "changed your mind? " .
Yup. Otherwise they’ll &)@( you.

[Rick Potter]

I can give you some hard figures on costs. I have a Tesla Model Y, on order, which should come about June 10th.

The additional charges are Registration $288 and License $347, both to DMV. Then there is an electronic filing fee of $31, tire fees (recycle) $7, and sales tax $4156.33. In other words, the dealer is charging me $31.

Other dealers are still upcharging for EV's like crazy. An absolute non starter for me.

[Keegan Shields]

Tesla doesn't use dealerships. Completely different sales model.

[Jim Becker]

How do you all handle it when you have a trade-in?
From what I have read the sequence of events (so to speak) is finalize the price of the the vehicle you are buying, THEN negotiate the price for the trade-in.
But twice now when buying a car I've experienced "we have to establish the trade-in price first."
And I know why... the trade-in price will determine the price of the vehicle that is for sale.
So for those of you that have trade-in, when the guy says "Do you have trade-in" how do you answer? "No", and then at the end say you "changed your mind? " .


It's simple. YOU control the conversation. If they ask about a trade in, simply say that you are there to work out the out the bottom line price for the vehicle configured the way you want it so you can consider it relative to other offers. (they don't need to know if or how many other offers you have) Don't say the word "trade". Don't say the word "finance". Don't say the word "Lease". And by all means do NOT say the words "monthly payment". You want the price of the vehicle. Everything else comes later. A trade is a form of payment and should not be part of the negotiation on the price of the vehicle. Financing and leasing are forms of payment and should not be part of the negotiation on the price of the vehicle. If they try to turn things back on those things, take control and simply say that those things are not part of the discussion you are interested in having now. If they bring it up again, don't be afraid to stand up, thank them for their time and walk out the door. Again, it's that simple.

[Andrew Joiner]

Negotiate a final bottom line dollar value, all in, except taxes. You'll find out how bad they want the addons. I bought our last two cars online via email, after test driving them. Brian
Me too Brian. Except I included taxes and license plates. Simple no stress way to buy a car. I documented it here: https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?261186-I-Bought-a-New-Car-By-Getting-Bids-from-Dealers

[Patty Hann]

Roger dodger, Jim. Thanks for the coaching. :)
(Will use it late next year.)

[mike calabrese]

Check out this father and son team on YouTube car edge https://caredge.com
They really know what is going on in the car market with lots of goo info and data.
The kid is kind of goofy but really know his stuff,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCqzf0PvOnQ
calabrese55

[Stan Calow]

Around here, new inventory on just about anything popular is still scarce, and the dealers aren't negotiating. I just went to my Toyota dealer for service, and almost all the vehicles on the showroom floor were used. I talked to a salesperson, who I actually like, and she said they have waiting lists for which a $1000 deposit is required. Take it or leave it. Similar experience at the Honda and Nissan dealers. So I am skeptical that the old negotiating tricks still work.

Then, every month or so, they send me a postcard that tells me exactly what they estimate my car is worth as a trade-in.

[Jim Becker]

Roger dodger, Jim. Thanks for the coaching. :)
(Will use it late next year.)
The only way to stop abusive vehicle sales practices is to not accept them. :)

[Jim Becker]

Around here, new inventory on just about anything popular is still scarce, and the dealers aren't negotiating. I just went to my Toyota dealer for service, and almost all the vehicles on the showroom floor were used. I talked to a salesperson, who I actually like, and she said they have waiting lists for which a $1000 deposit is required. Take it or leave it. Similar experience at the Honda and Nissan dealers. So I am skeptical that the old negotiating tricks still work..
Keep in mind that you don't have to buy locally. If you can save several thousand dollars buying in a different market, do that since the cost of travel to pick it up will not be significant compared with the savings for buying in a more competitive geography. This doesn't affect any warranty/service coverage...dealer service departments are completely different profit centers and the warranty comes from the manufacturer. The latter can be used at any dealer in the country that is authorized for that brand. Getting quotes can at least give you some bargaining power with the local folks, too.

Example...say you want to buy a Jeep Grand Cherokee. About the best price in the country is at Koons in Tyson's Corner VA because of their "group buy" vendor status at the Jeep Garage forum. I'm talking 6% below invoice. If you took a one way flight to DC it would cost you a few hundred dollars and they will pick you up from the Metro station after you take the Metro from the airport. You pay them, take delivery and then enjoy a nice, quiet drive home. That's just one example.

[Alex Zeller]

Pay attention to what you sign as well. The last new vehicle I bought I signed paperwork saying I didn't want XM radio. For the next 6 months they kept calling and texting me offers. I reread the paperwork and in small letters it said that I may be contacted with future offers. From now on I will pay more attention. My tactic is to walk out the door when they refuse to budge on price. I haven't bought a car when demand was high but normally they call bad in a day or two with their new best offer. Another thing I'll do is take the financing or extended warranty as you have 30 days to cancel the warranty or pay off the loan.

[Dave Lehnert]

I was at a local dealer today looking at SUV.
Dealer tacks on $400 for Nitrogen tire inflation :rolleyes:

[Sam Force]

I always go in prepared for what I am willing to pay and I do not budge. Do the homework on price and taxes and will not hesitate to leave. My wife will not go with me as she hates the negotiating, I tell her there is none. I buy at my price or I dont buy. It always helps as I buy when I want a different vehicle not because I need one

[Aaron Rosenthal]

I started buying a new car last year. I knew I wanted a Hybrid Pickup, and the one that made sense to me was the Ford Maverick.
I called, then emailed each dealer within 150 Km, with a proposed build sheet. Base model, colour, engine, and the only 2 accessories I wanted; drop in bed liner and ridgid bed cover.
I got a ton of faffing, and "call this salesman", and 80% no reply. BUT, I got 2 dealers with the exact same out the door price. Spoke to both sales agents: when I put in my order, one was on a day off break, and the other took my order.
I got a VIN issued mid-May, with a projected build starting mid - July.

[Rich Engelhardt]

How do you all handle it when you have a trade-in?
From what I have read the sequence of events (so to speak) is finalize the price of the the vehicle you are buying, THEN negotiate the price for the trade-in.
But twice now when buying a car I've experienced "we have to establish the trade-in price first."
And I know why... the trade-in price will determine the price of the vehicle that is for sale.
So for those of you that have trade-in, when the guy says "Do you have trade-in" how do you answer? "No", and then at the end say you "changed your mind? " .I sold Chevrolet trucks back in 1984/1985. I worked at a Chevy dealership (Bill Doraty).Even though I was hired into the truck department, I went through the same training as the other new people did for cars.

On day number 1 of our training - the owner of the dealership opened his welcome speech to us by relating this "fact" : "In their entire lifetime, the average person will sit down and negotiate the purchase of a new vehicle a dozen times. In your first week here, you will sit down and negotiate the purchase of a new vehicle, perhaps 4 times that number. Who do you think has the advantage"?

The message is - the dealership has seen and heard it all - and - that happened just this week!

The idea that you "got one over" on the dealership is simply put - just another sales tool.
The actual fact of "getting a killer deal" is something made up with ground Unicorn horn.

I disclose the fact that I have a trade in 100% of the time if, in fact, I do have one.

[Jim Becker]

I was at a local dealer today looking at SUV.
Dealer tacks on $400 for Nitrogen tire inflation :rolleyes:
That's free at Costco.... :)

[Dan Schocke]

I sold Chevrolet trucks back in 1984/1985. I worked at a Chevy dealership (Bill Doraty).Even though I was hired into the truck department, I went through the same training as the other new people did for cars.

On day number 1 of our training - the owner of the dealership opened his welcome speech to us by relating this "fact" : "In their entire lifetime, the average person will sit down and negotiate the purchase of a new vehicle a dozen times. In your first week here, you will sit down and negotiate the purchase of a new vehicle, perhaps 4 times that number. Who do you think has the advantage"?

The message is - the dealership has seen and heard it all - and - that happened just this week!

The idea that you "got one over" on the dealership is simply put - just another sales tool.
The actual fact of "getting a killer deal" is something made up with ground Unicorn horn.

I disclose the fact that I have a trade in 100% of the time if, in fact, I do have one.

Amen. At the end of the day there are only two things that matter:

1. You are comfortable with the price that you are paying for the vehicle that you purchase.
2. The dealer is comfortable selling at that price.

This is the system of pricing that they have chosen. You are responsible only for #1 in that list -- everything else is "their" problem. Market analytics, supply/demand trends, emotions, add-ons, "stand in the hot sun" tactics, "let me give your kid some candy", etc. do not matter in this system. You have to keep that in mind and be ready to walk away if your part of that is not satisfied -- the dealer certainly won't complete a deal if their part is not satisfied.

--Dan

[Brian Elfert]

That's free at Costco.... :)

I noticed the local Costco just added tire inflation stations in two parking spots next to the tire center doors. I think they are nitrogen, but I didn't look close enough.

[Jim Becker]

I noticed the local Costco just added tire inflation stations in two parking spots next to the tire center doors. I think they are nitrogen, but I didn't look close enough.
Yes, they are nitrogen. That's part of Costco's tire culture. I buy my tires from them, too...the install comes with lifetime rotation/balance and road hazard. The prices are excellent. The additional points/dollars on both my Executive Membership rebate and our Costco/Citi CC are also worthy.

[John M Wilson]

Dealer tacks on $400 for Nitrogen tire inflation :rolleyes:

At my house, I use a custom mix of 78% Nitrogen, 21% Oxygen, with just a little Argon, CO2, and Water Vapor (to improve flavor). :D:D:D

[Patty Hann]

At my house, I use a custom mix of 78% Nitrogen, 21% Oxygen, with just a little Argon, CO2, and Water Vapor (to improve flavor). :D:D:D

Really... you have to wonder... Air is already almost 4:1 N to O.
Does that ~20% of Oxygen make a such big difference in tire dynamics (I mean, as long as you're not driving the Indy 500...)
And I just thought of a fun thing to do at the dealership when the salesman pushes the all nitrogen "air"...ask him how much of the earth's atmosphere is already Nitrogen.
I predict the answer(s) to provoke much hilarity.

[Dick Strauss]

With nitrogen the tires tend to leak (permeate) less air through the tire so your pressure tends to stay more consistent from month to month.

[Patty Hann]

With nitrogen the tires tend to leak (permeate) less air through the tire so your pressure tends to stay more consistent from month to month.

Didn't know that....but (after reading a little bit)... THIS >>> https://www.tirebuyer.com/education/nitrogen-vs-air

Takeaway: negligible difference for the typical car owner.
But if you still want it, don't pay the dealer...cheaper to join Costco...you get the nitrogen AND all the two-fers besides :D

[Dick Strauss]

Most of our local tire dealers offer nitrogen fills as part of their standard installation package (~$20/tire for mounting/balancing). It is not worth paying for but it is nice to have.

I think the nitrogen fills may tend to make your tires last longer because nitrogen is inert while oxygen is very reactive.

[Brian Elfert]

Yes, they are nitrogen. That's part of Costco's tire culture. I buy my tires from them, too...the install comes with lifetime rotation/balance and road hazard. The prices are excellent. The additional points/dollars on both my Executive Membership rebate and our Costco/Citi CC are also worthy.

The tire inflation stations I assume are for anyone to use even if they didn't buy their tires there. Heck, someone doesn't have to even be a member to use them it looks like. Costco may have inflated any tires for free before, but if they did so before I had never heard of it and probably most members had not.

[Jim Becker]

Brian, they've only put in the nitrogen fill "parking spots" in recently at many of the stores. Prior to that, it was only available "in the bays" as part of install. I have not looked clost at the fill stations to see if there is any "member verification" or not, but I honestly suspect not.

[Alan Lightstone]

Most of our local tire dealers offer nitrogen fills as part of their standard installation package (~$20/tire for mounting/balancing). It is not worth paying for but it is nice to have.

I think the nitrogen fills may tend to make your tires last longer because nitrogen is inert while oxygen is very reactive.
Nitrogen in tires is essentially a scam.
Here's an analysis of it, with some spicy language: https://autoexpert.com.au/posts/top-10-reasons-why-nitrogen-wont-help-your-tyres

And another one. The mention of the Consumer Reports test is illuminating: https://www.lesschwab.com/article/tires/are-nitrogen-filled-tires-worth-the-cost.html#:~:text=It's%20true%20that%20there%20is, for%20people%20driving%20passenger%20vehicles.

But let's do a quick mathematical analysis:
Air is 78% nitrogen, and 21% oxygen. The nitrogen selling people say that air leaks out of tires faster than nitrogen. But that must mean that it's the oxygen leaking out, not the nitrogen. So let's say 10% of the oxygen leaks out (a very high estimate). So you refill your tire with air (of which 78% is nitrogen). Now you have a tire with 83% nitrogen. Let's say you fill your tire again 2 months later - now it's filled with 89% nitrogen. After a third filling, 95% nitrogen. So, after a few tire fillings, your tire is essentially filled with 100% nitrogen for free.

A little simplistic, but this does show that this is entirely bogus nonsense to get your money.

[Lee Schierer]

Okay, so you buy new tires. They are installed on the rims and filled with nitrogen. Remember tires are hollow, so there is air inside when they are mounted. Did they pull a vacuum on the tires at any point to remove the initial air that was in it? Probably not, it would take additional special equipment. Did they purge the tires for a period of time or fill and release the pressure multiple time using only pure nitrogen to pressurize the tire each time? Probably not, that would take a lot of time and use nitrogen.

Ergo filling tires with nitrogen is a waste of time, money and effort. Just ask them to fill your tires with 78% nitrogen instead.

[Bill Dufour]

I have heard the real advantage of nitrogen fill is they are using dry gas not water soaked air. Claim is many self serve air stations do not have much for a air dryer and no one drains it after it is full. What about Helium fill to reduce unsprung weight or maybe hydrogen for even more noticeable effect if it leaks out onto the hot exhaust pipe
Bill D

[Patty Hann]

I have heard the real advantage of nitrogen fill is they are using dry gas not water soaked air. Claim is many self serve air stations do not have much for a air dryer and no one drains it after it is full. What about Helium fill to reduce unsprung weight or maybe hydrogen for even more noticeable effect if it leaks out onto the hot exhaust pipe
Bill D

Just guessing, but I think helium is more expensive than nitrogen

[Jerry Bruette]

I have heard the real advantage of nitrogen fill is they are using dry gas not water soaked air. Claim is many self serve air stations do not have much for a air dryer and no one drains it after it is full. What about Helium fill to reduce unsprung weight or maybe hydrogen for even more noticeable effect if it leaks out onto the hot exhaust pipe
Bill D

You'd never be able to keep helium in your tires.

[John Lifer]

BS. Nitrogen is a single atom, Oxygen is two atoms. i.e. N vs O2. Oxygen is just slightly less than double the size molecule and permeates slower than just nitrogen. It is a bogus way to charge you Big dollars.

[Patty Hann]

BS. Nitrogen is a single atom, Oxygen is two atoms. i.e. N vs O2. Oxygen is just slightly less than double the size molecule and permeates slower than just nitrogen. It is a bogus way to charge you Big dollars.

Nitrogen commonly (actually overwhelmingly) exists as N2, a two atom molecule, same as Oxygen.
An N2 molecule is slightly larger (3%) than an O2 molecule.

[Mike Null]

We just bought a new car for my wife after spending several days visiting dealerships and shopping on line. I have always felt that car salesmen (and real estate people were liars). After talking to several salesmen my opinion was confirmed. Generally by the time they had finished their second sentence they had lied. Not a single one was completely honest.

Car dealers have acquired remarkable skills when it comes to inserting scam fees into the transaction. None of the people we talked to were older than 35 so the tradition will continue. the other thing--these guys didn't know their product.

whoever commented that inventories were sparse was on the mark as far as St. Louis is concerned.

[Curt Harms]

I have heard the real advantage of nitrogen fill is they are using dry gas not water soaked air. Claim is many self serve air stations do not have much for a air dryer and no one drains it after it is full. What about Helium fill to reduce unsprung weight or maybe hydrogen for even more noticeable effect if it leaks out onto the hot exhaust pipe
Bill D

I've heard the dry gas aspect is the reason Nitrogen is used on airplane tires, specifically on airplanes that operate at high altitudes. Tires that are repeatedly filled with moist air can accumulate a little water. When they spend time in below freezing temperatures that water is going to freeze. If the destination is near or below freezing that ice will not thaw and the tire is now unbalanced. I don't know how true that is but I do know that Michelin at least calls for Nitrogen. I can believe that an unbalanced small diameter tire going from 0 to 120 mph in the blink of an eye is not optimum.

[John Stankus]

I've heard the dry gas aspect is the reason Nitrogen is used on airplane tires, specifically on airplanes that operate at high altitudes. Tires that are repeatedly filled with moist air can accumulate a little water. When they spend time in below freezing temperatures that water is going to freeze. If the destination is near or below freezing that ice will not thaw and the tire is now unbalanced. I don't know how true that is but I do know that Michelin at least calls for Nitrogen. I can believe that an unbalanced small diameter tire going from 0 to 120 mph in the blink of an eye is not optimum.

Physical Chemistry Professor (and former autocross racer) here.
There is a lot of voodoo about nitrogen in tires. In normal auto tires, it won't make a lick of difference. In some specific applications it makes a little difference (really small difference).

Nitrogen is a diatomic gas N2 two nitrogen atoms bonded. The atomic radius of a Nitrogen atom is 65 picometers (a pm is 10-12 meters) the molecular mass of an N2 molecule is about 28 g/mol
Oxygen is also a diatomic gas O2 two oxygen atoms bonded. The atomic radius of an Oxygen atom is 60 picometers. The molecular mass of an O2 molecules is about 32 g/mol
Dry air is about 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen and about 1% other gases.

So nitrogen is slightly larger, so if there is a pore size effect it might leak out slower, but since it is lighter it is moving about 7% faster than the smaller (but heavier) O2 molecule which means it will find the pores that much quicker. My guess it is going to be a wash between those.

The moisture content is one area where there is a clear difference (but still probably not enough to be anything to care about except in special applications)
The comparison here is air from a compressor, and nitrogen from a gas cylinder.
The nitrogen from the gas cylinder is inherently dry (if you want super dry nitrogen, use the boil off from a liquid nitrogen tank which is at about -196 oC or -320oF so any water would be a solid )
Air from a compressor will have the partial pressure of water related to the temperature in the tank. So if the compressor tank is full and has time to cool to room temperature it will contain about 20 torr of water vapor (about 0.4 psi)) which in the vapor phase is not a big deal, it acts as a gas just like nitrogen. Where the issue is if it is not allowed to cool until it is in the tire. Say the air in the compressor tank reached 100F, theat would have about 56 torr (about 1 psi) of water. When the tire cools to room temperature about 36 torr of the vapor will condense to liquid. The liquid will add pressure based on the temperature of the tire (it will evaporate until it hits the vapor pressure of the water at the temperature of the tire). The application where this can be an issue is on racing slicks. Some of those types of tires can run maybe 15 psi so a change of 0.5 psi can be a big deal in performance (I raced in a stock class so I am not a slick expert)). Now to be clear this is on top of the approximate 7% pressure change just from the temperature change. Slicks are a pretty niche case here.

The other use case for nitrogen is aircraft tires. The FAA mandates dry nitrogen for commercial aircraft tires. FAA CFR final rule Federal Register: February 26, 1993 (Volume 58, Number 37)] [Page 11778] "SUMMARY: This amendment to the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR) requires that an inert gas, such as nitrogen, be used in lieu of air, for inflation of tires on certain transport category airplanes. This action is prompted by at least three cases in which the oxygen in air-filled tires combined with volatile gases given off by a severely overheated tire and exploded upon reaching auto-ignition temperature. The use of an inert gas for tire inflation will eliminate the possibility of a tire explosion." If you read the FAA rule document auto-ignition temperature with air was around 500F, with nitrogen greater than 95% it was greater the 670F.
In normal automotive applications, probably not likely to get the tires that hot. (except for some of the yo-yos doing burnouts to combustion... but they want the fire :eek: )

The purpose of nitrogen in normal automotive tires is the separate you from your money.

John

[Patty Hann]

Physical Chemistry Professor (and former autocross racer) here.
There is a lot of voodoo about nitrogen in tires. In normal auto tires, it won't make a lick of difference. In some specific applications it makes a little difference (really small difference).
...
The purpose of nitrogen in normal automotive tires is the separate you from your money.
John

good chemistry lesson ...and excellent "takeaway" ...thanks for posting it :)

[mike calabrese]

"The purpose of nitrogen in normal automotive tires is the separate you from your money." (John)
Think about it nitrogen has been used in racing tires for many years but it is only recently that the option has creeped into the auto buyers options. It is one of the latest BS line items to do exactly what John said in his post.
Doc fee is another one
Here is a link to a father and son team that have the car market pretty well defined in my opinion.
Navigating Car Dealer Fees: Your Ultimate Guide https://caredge.com/guides/understanding-car-dealer-fees#Doc_feecalabrese55

[Mike Hollingsworth]

We just bought a new car for my wife after spending several days visiting dealerships and shopping on line. I have always felt that car salesmen (and real estate people were liars). After talking to several salesmen my opinion was confirmed. Generally by the time they had finished their second sentence they had lied. Not a single one was completely honest.

When my son was 15 and I brought him into a dealership for the first time, I told him that when the salesman says "hello" he's lying.

[Rich Konopka]

Keep in mind that you don't have to buy locally. If you can save several thousand dollars buying in a different market, do that since the cost of travel to pick it up will not be significant compared with the savings for buying in a more competitive geography. This doesn't affect any warranty/service coverage...dealer service departments are completely different profit centers and the warranty comes from the manufacturer. The latter can be used at any dealer in the country that is authorized for that brand. Getting quotes can at least give you some bargaining power with the local folks, too.

Example...say you want to buy a Jeep Grand Cherokee. About the best price in the country is at Koons in Tyson's Corner VA because of their "group buy" vendor status at the Jeep Garage forum. I'm talking 6% below invoice. If you took a one way flight to DC it would cost you a few hundred dollars and they will pick you up from the Metro station after you take the Metro from the airport. You pay them, take delivery and then enjoy a nice, quiet drive home. That's just one example.

Potentially Not a good idea. What about sales tax? In my county its 6% and the next county its 8%. Thats another $1000 on a $50k vehicle.

[Ron Selzer]

Potentially Not a good idea. What about sales tax? In my county its 6% and the next county its 8%. Thats another $1000 on a $50k vehicle.


Every vehicle I have bought is taxed on where I live not where I buy it. Now have only been buying vehicles for 51 years so may be different where you live.
Ron

[Bill Dufour]

It was interesting to help my sister buy her new ford under the family plan. her FIL was working in Detroit for ford at the time. Only one salesman was authorized to sell under that plan. No one knew anything until we figured out who he was. The fleet sales guy who never talks to individuals buying one vehicle.
Made an appointment and he had a book of prices for the SUV sher wanted. Each option and option package had a price. no negotiation. It was sold under dealer cost, retired union employees in Detroit review each order to verify prices are correct so no cheating.
He explained dealer cost is what the dealer pays but.. He gets rebates if he sells a certain number of cars in a week, month, season, year etc. Total of new cars sold not just the employee discount ones.
So he breaks even at dealer cost but the rebates make him a little profit on employee sales and most shoppers pay more then cost already.
The family plan only allows two? cars purchased per year. The certificate can be given to blood relatives. At least to son or daughter, I think grandpa as well.
Bill D.

[Rich Konopka]

Every vehicle I have bought is taxed on where I live not where I buy it. Now have only been buying vehicles for 51 years so may be different where you live.
Ron

You are correct in most jurisdictions but again I said potentially. Especially, if you purchase out of state and register the vehicle yourself. In Georgia and in Cobb county you will pay dearly. Across counties the taxes are done differently at different rates.

[Jim Becker]

Potentially Not a good idea. What about sales tax? In my county its 6% and the next county its 8%. Thats another $1000 on a $50k vehicle.
Depends upon how that's handled in your state. We have that fun in this area because the City of Philadelphia's sales tax is a point higher than the rest of the state and our county borders the city. Vehicle dealers here know how to handle that. Folks at JeepGarage (a forum) who buy from forum sponsor Koons in Tyson's Corner can do everything right there for any state of residence except Massachusetts, for whatever reason. Sales tax is part of the vehicle registration process, in effect, so it's handled accordingly based on where one lives.

[Rick Potter]

Maybe that works some places, but if I buy a car and license it out of state for the first year, then register it in CA the next year, they still tax on the current value, like you just bought it here. I think it even works that way if you move to CA. and register your car.

Please tell me if I am wrong, I would love to be.

[Lee DeRaud]

Maybe that works some places, but if I buy a car and license it out of state for the first year, then register it in CA the next year, they still tax on the current value, like you just bought it here. I think it even works that way if you move to CA. and register your car.

Please tell me if I am wrong, I would love to be.
If you're a CA resident buying a car in a different state, it's the same as use tax for any out-of-state purchase: if you paid sales tax on it in another state, you can deduct that from the CA tax owed. (You only have 20 days after you bring it into the state to register it, so I'm not sure how you're doing that "license it out of state" thing.)

Moving to CA and bringing your car with you is a different animal. Part of the registration fee is based on the current value, but it's much less than sales tax (0.65% as of 2020).

[Rick Potter]

Thanks for the corrected update Lee. I have never registered one out of state, but I have sure been tempted. I have a condo in AZ, and it would be possible to register a car for use there, but I never have.

Another way is to register in my name and/or my son's name in Texas, where he lives. We could trade off using it every six months. I suspect that would be entirely legal.

CHP cracks down on people with out of states every once in a while, as a lot of RV's and toy cars carry O/S plates, usually AZ. I know a guy with a warehouse of muscle cars and hot rods registered in Utah. He says there is no sales tax there.

[glenn bradley]

The only way to stop abusive vehicle sales practices is to not accept them. :)

+1. I have had pen in hand hovering over the bottom line and stopped and walked out. They come chasing after and the "fees" magically disappear if it means 'no deal'. I've gave dealing with sales up and dealt directly with the fleet services folks to get my last few cars. Today there are many online solutions that avoid the dealership nonsense.

[Jim Becker]

Maybe that works some places, but if I buy a car and license it out of state for the first year, then register it in CA the next year, they still tax on the current value, like you just bought it here. I think it even works that way if you move to CA. and register your car.

Please tell me if I am wrong, I would love to be.
Different states have different rules. That's what makes things "interesting", err...complex. Some states collect tax on registration; some only on sale. Part of it is because some states tax vehicles as personal property; sometimes annually.

I just sold our second vehicle to a friend this week. She lives in Florida. She will be paying the sales tax in Florida when she does the registration next week after she arrives home with the title in-hand. The only tax we paid in PA was when we bought in 2020. Our registration is about $80 for two years, although there is an annual safety and emissions inspection required which costs about $60, give or take.

Of course, none of that is related to dealer fees which are a separate thing from taxes that everyone pays if they are required by a jurisdiction.

[Patty Hann]

+1. I have had pen in hand hovering over the bottom line and stopped and walked out. They come chasing after and the "fees" magically disappear if it means 'no deal'. I've gave dealing with sales up and dealt directly with the fleet services folks to get my last few cars. Today there are many online solutions that avoid the dealership nonsense.

How do you deal with fleet services? I don't mean the nuts and bolts of making the deal.
I mean how do you go about being able to approach them in the first place.
Do you contact/walk in a dealership and say [something like] "I'd like to talk with your fleet sales person." ?

[Bill Dufour]

My brother the mechanic bought and sold many cars over his life. Normally when buying he paid half in cash and half by check. He reported the check to the DMV as the sales price and paid tax on that portion only.
Bill D

[Lee DeRaud]

My brother the mechanic bought and sold many cars over his life. Normally when buying he paid half in cash and half by check. He reported the check to the DMV as the sales price and paid tax on that portion only.
The legal term for that procedure is "tax evasion", which tends to be frowned upon.
And given that the seller is required to file a REG138 form with DMV reporting the sale price, not particularly bright.

[Jim Becker]

The legal term for that procedure is "tax evasion", which tends to be frowned upon.
And given that the seller is required to file a REG138 form with DMV reporting the sale price, not particularly bright.
Agree, although the process for a private sale is different in every state. I sold a vehicle to a friend last week that she took back to Florida. I didn't have to do any kind of reporting of the sale to Pennsyltucky and the official title transfer will happen in Florida. She does have a bill of sale which matches the cashier's check...the vehicle was too new and with too low of a mileage count that anyone could likely get away with lower number anyway, not that I would personally misrepresent things. Folks at the various local tag/title places seem to always ask for the sale price by saying, "what do you want me to put down as the sale price" which makes me chuckle. In PA, you don't do initial tag/registration work directly with the DMV...it's all done by agency. I use AAA and they don't ask that question that way. They hand you a form that becomes a bill of sale and the seller and buyer fills it out together. Kinda the same thing without the spoken words I guess. ;)

[Lee DeRaud]

Agree, although the process for a private sale is different in every state. I sold a vehicle to a friend last week that she took back to Florida. I didn't have to do any kind of reporting of the sale to Pennsyltucky and the official title transfer will happen in Florida. She does have a bill of sale which matches the cashier's check...the vehicle was too new and with too low of a mileage count that anyone could likely get away with lower number anyway, not that I would personally misrepresent things. Folks at the various local tag/title places seem to always ask for the sale price by saying, "what do you want me to put down as the sale price" which makes me chuckle. In PA, you don't do initial tag/registration work directly with the DMV...it's all done by agency. I use AAA and they don't ask that question that way. They hand you a form that becomes a bill of sale and the seller and buyer fills it out together. Kinda the same thing without the spoken words I guess. ;)
The form here in CA is primarily so the DMV knows the seller is not liable for future traffic/parking/toll fines on that license/VIN number. (Or if the car is used in a crime somewhere down the road.) So it's definitely in the seller's interest to file it.

But it does include the sale price. I have no idea whether their system is smart enough to match the number on that form with the corresponding purchase price on the transfer forms filed by the buyer. I suspect not, but if the buyer wants to roll the dice and play those kind of games, I'm not inclined to help him.

[Jim Becker]

Here that stuff is tied to the tag/registration and when a new registration is issued, either in-state for an in-state buyer or out-of-state like with my situation, the database gets updated. The title "is" the form, in effect. I do need to deal with the toll transponder separately, however. (eye roll)

[Brian Elfert]

In Minnesota my understanding is our version of the DMV will assign a minimum value when calculating the tax due on a vehicle sale if the given value is too low. I further understand there are exceptions for transfers between family members.

If a vehicle is over 10 years old there is a very small tax due of I believe $30 if I recall correctly. I don't recall the ten year thing previously so not sure if it is new from when the law changed on July 1st.

[Jim Becker]

Within the family carries no taxes here in PA. We are free to gift a vehicle to another family member and transfer title with minimal fees.

[Greg Parrish]

Agree, although the process for a private sale is different in every state. I sold a vehicle to a friend last week that she took back to Florida. I didn't have to do any kind of reporting of the sale to Pennsyltucky and the official title transfer will happen in Florida. She does have a bill of sale which matches the cashier's check...the vehicle was too new and with too low of a mileage count that anyone could likely get away with lower number anyway, not that I would personally misrepresent things. Folks at the various local tag/title places seem to always ask for the sale price by saying, "what do you want me to put down as the sale price" which makes me chuckle. In PA, you don't do initial tag/registration work directly with the DMV...it's all done by agency. I use AAA and they don't ask that question that way. They hand you a form that becomes a bill of sale and the seller and buyer fills it out together. Kinda the same thing without the spoken words I guess. ;)

Don't know if she has done the registration yet but she will probably have to pay the sales tax down here in Florida, plus in addition to the tag registration fee, they will charge an "impact fee" of a few hundred for bringing a new vehicle into Florida. But, once done, we only have an annual tag renewal to pay and no excise/property tax on vehicles like some states.

[Jim Becker]

Don't know if she has done the registration yet but she will probably have to pay the sales tax down here in Florida, plus in addition to the tag registration fee, they will charge an "impact fee" of a few hundred for bringing a new vehicle into Florida. But, once done, we only have an annual tag renewal to pay and no excise/property tax on vehicles like some states.
Yes, she is aware of that. She's not happy about it, of course, but she got a pristine 2020 Forester Limited with the extra bells and whistles with only 21K miles on it for below market. :)

[Patty Hann]

Yes, she is aware of that. She's not happy about it, of course, but she got a pristine 2020 Forester Limited with the extra bells and whistles with only 21K miles on it for below market. :)
The Forester is highly rated. Why did you sell it? (especially considering the low mileage after 3 years)
(You may, of course, decline to answer..no hard feelings)

[Earl McLain]

Yes, she is aware of that. She's not happy about it, of course, but she got a pristine 2020 Forester Limited with the extra bells and whistles with only 21K miles on it for below market. :)

Great price. I've been watching for similar vintage Outback or Ascent, but at that money i MIGHT have been tempted to downsize!! The used Outback/Ascent market int the midwest is such that i may just end up buying a new one.

[Jim Becker]

The Forester is highly rated. Why did you sell it? (especially considering the low mileage after 3 years)
(You may, of course, decline to answer..no hard feelings)

I've mentioned this previously, but we have gone to one vehicle...my Subaru Ascent Touring. (which I'm upgrading from a MY19 to a MY23 sometime this month) Professor Dr. SWMBO is not driving at the present time for medical reasons and hasn't for some time now, is retiring from teaching "as we speak" and there really wasn't a need to incur the expense of keeping two on the road...I was driving both of them. My friend in Florida, OTOH..."sister from another mother"...was in real need of a vehicle as her 2012 Honda is on its last legs. Now she has a safe vehicle with low mileage to drive and given her daughter (like a daughter to me) is about to get her license, it's even more valuable. She had a tough time for several years after a corporate merger caused the entire marketing department to get laid off (her included) and a combination of age/gender discrimination kept her unemployed for a long time. When she landed the wonderful position she has now, and it's a worthy job with a great company, she still was unable to get anything close to the same income she had worked up to over the years prior to layoff. So this was an opportunity to help a friend while still getting back close to market value and above trade-in value for the pristine vehicle we didn't need.

[Jim Becker]

Great price. I've been watching for similar vintage Outback or Ascent, but at that money i MIGHT have been tempted to downsize!! The used Outback/Ascent market int the midwest is such that i may just end up buying a new one.
It wasn't a "great" price, but it was a fair price and less than the same vehicle would have cost her from a dealer, even with used prices softening lately. You are correct that in some markets, there's nearly zero incentive to buy used, both for price and because of finance rates, when new can be had with discounted/subsidized financing if you have good credit.

[Patty Hann]

I've mentioned this previously, but we have gone to one vehicle...my Subaru Ascent Touring. (which I'm upgrading from a MY19 to a MY23 sometime this month) .......So this was an opportunity to help a friend while still getting back close to market value and above trade-in value for the pristine vehicle we didn't need.

Very kind and generous :).

[Pat Germain]

How do you deal with fleet services? I don't mean the nuts and bolts of making the deal.
I mean how do you go about being able to approach them in the first place.
Do you contact/walk in a dealership and say [something like] "I'd like to talk with your fleet sales person." ?

- Don't walk into the dealership.

- If you contact a buying service such as through USAA, Costco or a credit union, they will put you in touch with a fleet sales rep. (Just be prepared to get a LOT of calls and emails from multiple dealers for a few days.)

- Sometimes you can find a phone number or email address for the fleet sales rep on the dealer web site. It won't be obvious, but if you look, you can sometimes find it

- I got lucky when I bought my 2020 Gladiator. When those trucks first hit the market in summer, 2019, most Jeep dealers were marking them way above MSRP hoping to create a frenzy. I went to my local Jeep dealer's web site and initiated a chat session to ask if they were going to mark the Gladiators above MSRP. I chatted with a very nice woman named Shelby who turned out to be the fleet sales rep.

- When you work with a fleet sales rep, you have to know exactly which vehicle you want. The fleet sales rep will quote you a price and you take it or leave it. There is typically no haggling on that price. In years past, you MIGHT have been able to get a lower price walking into the dealership, but it wasn't easy. These days you'd be hard pressed to beat the price from a fleet sales rep, but every dealer is different.

- In my case, Shelby's price was higher than I wanted to pay. She told me she could get me the price I wanted for a Gladiator if I ordered one from Jeep. I told her I would call her when I was ready to order. A few months later, I went back to the web site and saw they still had the same truck I wanted on the lot. I emailed Shelby and asked if she would take the price I offered for the truck several months prior. She agreed.

- I walked into the dealer just before Christmas. I was the only customer there. Most of the staff were off for the holiday. Nobody tried to upsell me. I did ask if they could find me an interest rate lower than my credit union and they did. Easy peasy. I assumed Shelby wasn't there. But at the end of the transaction she came out to see me. (Good golly was she a stunner. It's a good thing I didn't meet her until after the transaction or I would likely have been distracted enough to make some bad decisions. Sorry, but I'm only human.)

Anyway, I have always had good luck when buying a new vehicle from the fleet sales rep. But I haven't bought a vehicle since Pandemicland broke out and it's a whole new world. My son recently bought a Mazda SUV and the only way he could get it without paying over MSRP was if he ordered it. When the vehicle came in, the dealer called him and said he had to pick it up that day or they would sell it to someone else at a higher price. (It was a turbo model which everyone wanted but couldn't find on any Mazda lot.)

[Stan Calow]

My experience with one of the buying services mentioned was not good and very revealing. They sent me to a specific dealer, who informed me that the car I was interested in did not have a discount available (from sticker price) due to high demand. I was essentially offered the same price as anyone walking in off the street (student discount, military, AARP, etc). Looking over the sales rep's shoulder I could see the amount of buying service discount offered on other models, and it was $0-500 off sticker, essentially the same or less than anyone off the street could get. My inference was that the whole "service" is a gimmick, designed for the dealers to give the provider a kickback for referring a live one to them.
YMMV

[Brian Elfert]

I used the Sam's Club $1000 Dodge rebate the last time I bought a car in 2016. It was a separate rebate on top of the other rebates at the time and on top of the best price I could get.

[Pat Germain]

My experience with one of the buying services mentioned was not good and very revealing. They sent me to a specific dealer, who informed me that the car I was interested in did not have a discount available (from sticker price) due to high demand. I was essentially offered the same price as anyone walking in off the street (student discount, military, AARP, etc). Looking over the sales rep's shoulder I could see the amount of buying service discount offered on other models, and it was $0-500 off sticker, essentially the same or less than anyone off the street could get. My inference was that the whole "service" is a gimmick, designed for the dealers to give the provider a kickback for referring a live one to them.
YMMV

Well that sucks. Once upon a time you could get a good deal through a buying service. Apparently no more.