Am I the jerk here?

[Patrick Baney]

Am I the jerk here?

Sorry for the length…

I’d like to share my peculiar experience with a well-respected tookmaker/distributor within the community. First and foremost, I have nothing but respect for Rob Cosman. I’ve purchased numerous products from him, and they’ve all been great, but I’m at a bit of a loss over my last purchase (and interactions with customer service) and I’m left wondering, am I just being a picky jerk here? Anyways…

I ordered a ¼ mortise chisel sometime in March. I specifically wanted a mortise chisel with sides square to the back. Please hold the lecture on whether or not this matters, I’m not here for that. These are a selling point for Robs (IBC) mortise chisels and he stresses the importance of squareness.

Received Chisel 1: I received the ¼ chisel about 10 days later after the voyage from Canada. I was disappointed to find the edge beat up and a sideways bow (bend) in the blade totaling about .005 from end to end. You could spin the thing like a top. Does this matter? Not sure, but of all things…a mortise chisel. Sure, I could have reground the edge, as I’ll do many times, but for $150, this is unacceptable. Next business day they accepted the return and send out a replacement 3 or 4 days later. They said they’d take special care to find one that meets my expectations. This rubbed me the wrong way as I don’t think my expectations are anything beyond what’s being advertised. Anyways..

Received Chisel 2: Another 10 days or so, the replacement arrived. Total bust – it was a ¼ bench chisel. Clearly, special care was taken. Sent a less friendly email and a third chisel was on the way, but not before 5 business days. Is my frustration showing? Sorry..

Received Chisel 3: couple weeks since the second chisel arrived, a ¼ mortise chisel arrived. This chisel had an identical bend as first. Ok…whatever I’ll just accept the bend I guess. Then I noticed…both mortise chisels I received don’t have sides square to the back. They’re both identically about .6 degrees out. Rusty trig suggests these chisels are out of square by about .004, double the advertised .002 tolerance. This is easily observed by all my squares.

I reach out to customer service about the identical bend and out of square sides. Though, I mentioned that I’m willing to accept the bend at this point. I didn’t hear back until I reached out over a week later (purple heart class was running, so I guess CS stops. I get that…I guess). My response was that Rob and Jake said the bend isn’t an issue. The chisels being 2x out of square tolerance was not addressed at all in the response. Also, I'll point out that with every communication, I reinforced that I'll be sending back any chisel they want for review or whatever. I made it clear I wasn't trying to hang on to the chisels that were out of spec (or the wrong type...).

I reply that my real issue at this point is them not being square and that if they can’t provide one in spec then I’d like to return all of them for a refund. A few days later I got a return form for all three chisels.

So, I guess that’s that, they’re unwilling or unable to provide a ¼ mortise chisel to the advertised spec.This is disappointing as most of my other chisels are IBC and I really didn’t want an oddball mortise chisel. Am I being a jerk here? Too fussy? I debating just eating crow here and keeping one, but the whole experience really rubs me the wrong way.

[Edward Weber]

No, you're ot the jerk, you're the customer.
If they can't provide what they advertise and are unwilling to work with you, their loss. take your business elsewhere. Somewhere where you get what you pay for.

[glenn bradley]

Never feel "wrong" for speaking with your wallet. It doesn't matter what service or item we are buying or how much or how little we pay. You should get what is agreed on or get a refund. All sounds as though it is well except maybe for your broken expectations. Factor your experience in when making your next purchase from whoever or wherever. And thanks for sharing so we can all learn from your experience.

[Tom M King]

I do understand steel can warp after milling. Hard to account for that when cutting corners though.

I wouldn't pay 150 bucks for a chisel anyway, but certainly wouldn't on one that is not as represented. My old Ulmia's are straight.

[Richard Coers]

You can come close to being a jerk here when you get on the internet and put down a long rant about an experience. They did provide chisels to you, but not to your specs. Their customer service sounds good, they did all they could do, but just don't have a supplier that meets your specs. Move on and buy from someone else, but you've already done the damage to Cosman with this post. If you really do respect him as you said, you would delete the post. But your post is like that "I don't mean to be rude.......", but yet it continues and it is always rude.

[Patrick Baney]

but not to your specs.


meets your specs.

Here's that "your specs" language that their customer service used. You don't know my specs, but I'll tell you, to be clear. My specs are exactly what he has advertised, and those should be upheld. To be clear, the chisels I received were double the advertised tolerance. If they don't have a supplier that meets these specs, then they shouldn't be listed on their site.


you've already done the damage

Have I? Pretty sure they did that when they sent me two out of spec chisels, and one completely different type of chisel, prefaced with "special care" about "my" specs.


If you really do respect him

I do respect him, and it's fine if you think one gripe about what's likely not his direct doing disqualifies me from respecting him.

My post may have some snark, but I've clearly left the door open to this being a me issue. Many who read this will absolutely roll their eyes over me fretting over .6 degrees on a chisel that's often intentionally trapezoidal.

[Ron Selzer]

Not a jerk to expect the product you bought to MEET THE ADVERTISED SPEC.
appreciated the warning posted here about what you received and how you were talked to.
Ron

[Jim Koepke]

I agree you are not the jerk.

How did someone send you a bench chisel? Are their stock pickers totally untrained?

Your experience indicates a lack of quality and a lack of care about their customers.

I have had similar problems with some vendors and have been made somewhat happy by a total refund.

This can happen when a company is selling a product handled by a fulfillment warehouse and the seller never actually has the product in their possession.

jtk

[Mike Manning]

You are absolutely not the jerk.

I also think someone in CS owes you an apology for the "your specs" comment. It was snide, rude and totally uncalled for.

I'd like to believe that if Rob Cosman knew about your experience and the potential harm to his reputation he'd be horrified.

[Cameron Wood]

Somehow, I can only hear the thread title in the voice of Meg Ryan from "When Harry met Sally".

[Keegan Shields]

Your experience here is a big reason I prefer to deal directly with the manufacturers of tools rather than a reseller. IME, a quality manufacturer really takes pride in their specs. The reseller just wants to clear inventory.

At this point, try a different brand. My 1/4” LN mortise chisel is square and straight. You might give that brand a go.

[Edward Weber]

I have had a similar experience buying turning tools, 3 different times from two different sellers. This was over a 1-2 year period of time about 8 years ago.

First case, Seller 1,
Bowl gouge arrived with a bend. I called and got the speech about how after heat treating.....
I sent it back, they paid shipping, I and got a replacement.
Second time Seller 2,
Same issue, only this time after an apologetic description of the heat treating..., I was sent a replacement, no questions asked.
Number three, back to seller 1,
Same thing again, I mentioned that I had had this issue previously with them. This time I got an abrupt answer and was told if I paid shipping, I would get a replacement. I reluctantly paid and sent it back for a refund.
I now find myself reading the return policy before I purchase, I won't get fooled again.

IMO, if a seller sends you a defective product, it's their responsibility to reconcile the situation completely., 100%. You as the customer should have to pay zero dollars and waste no more time. You already spent time and money to purchase the product as advertised, anything more is on them.
I'll take photos or return the item on their dime but that's it.

A vendor should want to take care of there customers and stand by their product. If the seller in the OP did, then this might have been a glowing review of customer service. Now, how ever many people view this thread, might think twice after reading his experience.

Risky buisness ticking off customers, you don't know the reach they may have. Ignore your customers at your own peril.

[Tom M King]

The customer is always right, and sometimes they really are.

[Eric Brown]

So this is a truth in advertising issue? I wonder if Mr. Cossman is aware of the issue at all? Sometimes you have to go above the normal customer service and try contacting a manager/owner.

[Edward Weber]

So this is a truth in advertising issue? I wonder if Mr. Cossman is aware of the issue at all? Sometimes you have to go above the normal customer service and try contacting a manager/owner.



Eric, I somewhat agree with your point but at the end of the day, as they say, it's his business and he should know what's going on.
The customer should not have to jump through hoops to get an issue resolved.

[Patrick Baney]

I don’t have any reason to believe anyone there is knowingly selling chisels outside of their advertised tolerances. For all I know these two chisels I received are uh, 2-offs? Though, since the imperfections are identical between the two, I can speculate that the entire batch was affected.

And now that you mention it, I did actually give Robs personal number a couple calls. I happen to know someone who attended a class some years ago and they provided his number. No answer, which I of course don’t fault him for. My voicemail got disconnected about 10 seconds in so I doubt he actually got it. I didn’t try again after that.

[Richard Coers]

Here's that "your specs" language that their customer service used. You don't know my specs, but I'll tell you, to be clear. My specs are exactly what he has advertised, and those should be upheld. To be clear, the chisels I received were double the advertised tolerance. If they don't have a supplier that meets these specs, then they shouldn't be listed on their site.



Have I? Pretty sure they did that when they sent me two out of spec chisels, and one completely different type of chisel, prefaced with "special care" about "my" specs.



I do respect him, and it's fine if you think one gripe about what's likely not his direct doing disqualifies me from respecting him.

My post may have some snark, but I've clearly left the door open to this being a me issue. Many who read this will absolutely roll their eyes over me fretting over .6 degrees on a chisel that's often intentionally trapezoidal.
Not as much snark as this post. I'll guarantee there are people using that exact chisel and it's fine for them. What would you call complaining about a .005 tolerance other than your specs? In 50 years of woodworking I have never put a staight edge and feeler gage to a chisel.

[Edward Weber]

I think the point is getting lost a bit.

It's not that .005" matters or not, or if it's close enough for most people, or don't worry about it, it'll be fine.
The point is this, if someone advertises their chisel at .00X" tolerance, then you shooed get .00X". Not close to it, not a few thousandths off, not close enough, but what was advertised. If the company can't or won't provide what was advertised, take your money elsewhere.
If you pay for a service or product, you are entitled to receive that service or product, no equivocation.

[Tom M King]

Here's the ad with the listed specs:

https://robcosman.com/products/ibc-mortise-chisel-3-8-inch

[Jim Koepke]

I've been trying to use Google to find information on where IBC tools are made, no luck.

Does anyone know if these are made in North America or overseas?

The price on these seems to be on the premium end.

For a premium price one should get a premium tool.

There are four mortise chisels in my set. All four of them didn't come too much more than $100 with shipping. Two of them are late 18th century or early 19th. One of them is a Narex and my 1/2" is marked Thoe Ibbotson, whoever that is. They all arrived and work as expected.

If someone is selling a chisel, one of the simplest woodworking tools, at stratospheric prices the tool should arrive in a condition that is warrants such a price.

Rant mode off…

Patrick, imo, the jerk is on the other end of this deal.

jtk

[Edward Weber]

https://www.ibctools.ca/about/

[Jim Koepke]

https://www.ibctools.ca/about/

Thanks Edward.

My Google Fu wasn't working today.

jtk

[Kent A Bathurst]

......... Not close to it, not a few thousandths off, not close enough, but what was advertised...


I dunno about the rest of you fellers, but I'm sitting here thinking that if this was about L-V, Rob Lee would have already been in this discussion. Except with L-V or L-N, the thread would not have existed because duh!!

This is painfully simple - cull your vendor list.

[Mark Gibney]

Richard I take the opposite view to you. The OP carefully explained his experience with us, other forum users. I don't think for a second his post did any "damage to" Rob Cosman's brand. And if it potentially could, that's not a reason not to post, either by principle or in actuality. This forum has it's frequent visitors, but we're probably a tiny % of 1% of the woodworkers of north America. There will be no contagion outside of us!

[Tony Zaffuto]

IBC stands for “Industrial Blade Company”. They have made blades, etc., for a number of tool vendors, including Woodcraft, formerly LV (years ago) and Cosman.

For the tool’s cost, said tool should be within stated tolerances, but the big question is, what tolerances does IBC warrant to its vendors?

[Cameron Wood]

Looking at the specs, it says the back is flat to a certain degree, but says nothing about bow to the side.

I set a digital angle finder to 90.6˚, with a small engineer square to it, and a .002 feeler gauge went down to almost 1/2", so that seems to be within their stated spec.

[Jack Dover]

This is funny. Because Rob spend like 30 mins bashing on Narex mortise chisels and one of the points was that a Narex chisel he used for a review was bent about 0.005" just like you describe. He was correct though, Narex often comes bent.

I think you're right demanding what you've paid for. I also don't think Rob has anything to do with it, it's a responsibility of a QA department and training order pickers to check items before shipping. Rob is just a brand's face, so he gets all the blame.

[Jim Koepke]

This is funny. Because Rob spend like 30 mins bashing on Narex mortise chisels and one of the points was that a Narex chisel he used for a review was bent about 0.005" just like you describe. He was correct though, Narex often comes bent.

I think you're right demanding what you've paid for. I also don't think Rob has anything to do with it, it's a responsibility of a QA department and training order pickers to check items before shipping. Rob is just a brand's face, so he gets all the blame.

Most of the time my chisel acquisitions are merely eye ball inspected.

My recollection is most of them looked straight enough for me.

A few chisels of one type tend to have a belly. They may have been made that way or they may have been whacked a lot.

Though the majority of my chisels were found preowned.

Maybe check the mortise chisels next time in the shop.

jtk

[Dave Zellers]

Rob is just a brand's face, so he gets all the blame.

And the profits?

[Jack Dover]

If I remember it correctly, Rob's point in that video was that you could fix it on a diamond plate, but it would take days (this is true). And for him this is essentially lost revenue or something. Which might be a case for Rob since he probably has some paying customers. For people that don't do paid work this is not a very compelling argument.

My mortising chisels are from various brands too, most of the brands are well-known and assumed to be "good" tools - Sorby, Marples Shamrock, Witherby etc. Yet most of the chisels have some deviations from a perfect form: a skewed trapezoidal shape is the most common, but also many of them are bend sideways exactly like the OP described. Most of them have some sort of a belly. But once I figured chopping in general, my "worst" chisel didn't prevent making a clean square mortise with minimal paring. I find an out-of-square cutting edge to be a bigger issue than this. And getting something similar to Narex into a working order isn't much longer, at least I don't remember a single Narex chisel that would had a belly out of a box, so it was same 10-15 mins to set up. Not that I advocate for Narex, quite the opposite.

I also had a chance to try LN, Veritas and IBC mortising chisels. While being obviously better manufactured they didn't really made me to chop better. Probably there's a certain limit after which improvements in quality don't bring any extra benefits. Neither they stayed sharp longer, but that's another story. So I'm yet to figure what could be worth 150$ in a mortising chisel.

[Jack Dover]

Most probably, yeah, I don't think he does it out of the kindness of his heart. And it's okay as long as the brand fulfills what Rob says in his promos.

[Jim Koepke]

Most of the time my chisel acquisitions are merely eye ball inspected.

My recollection is most of them looked straight enough for me.

A few chisels of one type tend to have a belly. They may have been made that way or they may have been whacked a lot.

Though the majority of my chisels were found preowned.

Maybe check the mortise chisels next time in the shop.

jtk


my 1/2" is marked Thoe Ibbotson

Looked closer at my 1/2" mortise chisel today, it appears to be THOs IBBOTSON as the makers mark.

Checked my mortise chisels and my large 1" framing chisel against a straight edge. All of them except the Narex are laminated. All of them show a little bit of light between the back and sides of the chisel when held against a straight edge. Mostly the laminated chisels had a little belly to them on their backs. The worst was the framing chisels at maybe 0.010". It was in pretty rough shape when it came my way.

jtk

[steven c newman]

502092
There are 4 Mortise chisels in the photo....Narex....Witherby. and a 12mm japanese...no real issues with any of them....None cost me more than...$10....YMMV..

[Tom M King]

Steven, before I read your post, I was going to say you probably have the same number of 150 dollar chisels that I do. I see now that you do.

[Michael Fross]

I’m just guessing here, but I bet Rob is restating the specs from IBC. He should probably check a few batches, update the tolerances on his website, and then complain to IBC.

But just a guess on my part.

[clinton cox]

He has posted a video in the past where he shows the process of taking every chisel he sells and checks the back for flatness with feeler gauges on a large granite surface plate. I'm not sure if he checks the sides of mortise chisels though.

[Johannes Becker]

Don't forget to leave a review on his website as well. It will be telling to see whether it shows up...

[James Jayko]

Maybe this is me being silly but...what are you building that 5 thou on a chisel even makes a perceptible difference? I mean, I get wanting what you ordered so I've got no problem with asking for a refund or replacement. But this definitely feels like a 'perfect is the enemy of the good' situation.

[Jim Koepke]

Maybe this is me being silly but...what are you building that 5 thou on a chisel even makes a perceptible difference? I mean, I get wanting what you ordered so I've got no problem with asking for a refund or replacement. But this definitely feels like a 'perfect is the enemy of the good' situation.

When paying $150 for a chisel I would expect it to meet the specifications, as well as the hype, attributed to it.

Cossman often talks of his diligence in working with the manufacturing facility to make sure his followers/customers get the finest tools available to woodworking kind.

It isn't on the customer/buyer to "put up and shut up."

Someone needs to get on the ball and make sure customers are getting the item and quality for which they are paying.

jtk

[James Jayko]

When paying $150 for a chisel I would expect it to meet the specifications, as well as the hype, attributed to it.

Cossman often talks of his diligence in working with the manufacturing facility to make sure his followers/customers get the finest tools available to woodworking kind.

It isn't on the customer/buyer to "put up and shut up."

Someone needs to get on the ball and make sure customers are getting the item and quality for which they are paying.

jtk

I'm not saying that per se, I'm just saying...if you need feeler gauges to find defects in a chisel...you might be missing the forest for the trees. Also, resellers / manufacturers make these promises that won't accomplish anything. Does anyone really think that a mortise chisel that is .0025" out of spec is going to make a difference in their work? I would say "you're not making a piano," but I don't think it would even matter if you WERE making a piano...

[Jim Koepke]

I'm not saying that per se, I'm just saying...if you need feeler gauges to find defects in a chisel...you might be missing the forest for the trees. Also, resellers / manufacturers make these promises that won't accomplish anything. Does anyone really think that a mortise chisel that is .0025" out of spec is going to make a difference in their work? I would say "you're not making a piano," but I don't think it would even matter if you WERE making a piano...

James, my point is the buyer has a right to expect what was "sold" will be they same as what they receive. Even with the best vendors errors can happen.

An old axiom says, "the difference between an amateur and a professional is how they handle their mistakes."

In this case the "mistake" wasn't handled professionally. The reply from customer service was very unprofessional:


They said they’d take special care to find one that meets my expectations.

Then they sent him a bench chisel, is that their idea of "special care"?

Clearly they didn't have someone who knows anything about chisels fill the order. It seems they also didn't bother to have an informed employee to inspect any of the replacement chisels in this farce.

As said previously, some of my mortise chisels have a slight belly. Two of them have been around at least 200 years. They have a bow from front to back that appears to be less than what Patrick. According to Patrick, the IBC chisel was bowed over the sides. Chopping mortises is heavy duty work for a chisel. That is why mortise chisels tend to be built rather robust.

Will a side to side bow become worse with use?

Will it impair making a straight mortise?

If someone was selling me a plane claiming the sole was flat to a half thousandths of an inch and it was five thousands out I would not be happy. Many of my old Stanley planes came with soles flat to one thousandths of an inch or better.

jtk

[Tony Zaffuto]

When paying $150 for a chisel I would expect it to meet the specifications, as well as the hype, attributed to it.

Cossman often talks of his diligence in working with the manufacturing facility to make sure his followers/customers get the finest tools available to woodworking kind.

It isn't on the customer/buyer to "put up and shut up."

Someone needs to get on the ball and make sure customers are getting the item and quality for which they are paying.

jtk

I agree: if you sell the accuracy you had better deliver the accuracy. Has Cosman even researched the history of IBC’s manufacturing?

[David Carroll]

Does RC give any tolerances on anything besides flatness? (0.0005)? I looked at the website and saw where they tout the flatness of the back, but I didn't see where they call out tolerances for straightness or squareness. Still, 0.005-inches out of straight does seem a bit excessive. I have to imagine it was warping in heat treatment.

Sending the wrong chisel to replace it seems more like a mistake than an indication of systemic poor customer service. Everybody makes mistakes.

I'm inclined to give Cosman the benefit of the doubt until I hear a lot of people making similar complaints.

DC

[John C Cox]

Honestly, 0.005" off straight could be a machining burr or a slight ding from handling. Same for the 0.002"-0.005 " out of parallel. I would stone the sides with a fine India stone to verify it's not just a burr/ding before doing anything else. Very likely that dimension will be much closer to zero after deburring with an India stone.

I would also debur the bevel-side of the chisel. Break those sharp corners so they don't dig in when you're levering out waste. I would leave the back flat and sharp to the sides, but I would still give it a good lick on a fine honing stone to make sure you remove any burrs.

[Jim Koepke]

Sending the wrong chisel to replace it seems more like a mistake than an indication of systemic poor customer service. Everybody makes mistakes.

To me as one who has worked in more than one stockroom, it indicates a person who wasn't paying attention to what they were doing or possibly didn't know the difference between a bench chisel and a mortise chisel. When the rep said, "they’d take special care to find one that meets my expectations." Someone somewhere dropped the ball, BIG TIME.


Honestly, 0.005" off straight could be a machining burr or a slight ding from handling.

Slight ding from handling? Is this chisel made of soft butter?

My heavy chisels are bashed with heavy mallet and do not have such slight dings. Some of my chisels have been dropped on a cement floor without getting such slight dings.

jtk

[Edward Weber]

To me as one who has worked in more than one stockroom, it indicates a person who wasn't paying attention to what they were doing or possibly didn't know the difference between a bench chisel and a mortise chisel. When the rep said, "they’d take special care to find one that meets my expectations." Someone somewhere dropped the ball, BIG TIME.



Slight ding from handling? Is this chisel made of soft butter?

My heavy chisels are bashed with heavy mallet and do not have such slight dings. Some of my chisels have been dropped on a cement floor without getting such slight dings.

jtk
Once again, I'm agreeing with you Jim.
All this talk of, all you have to do is take it to a stone or break all the sharp corners, is all well and good, if you are buying a used or cheaply made tool, you should expect to do some tuning to get the tool ready for work.
If you're paying a premium price for a tool that advertises their specs, it has to meet them or what's the point of the premium price?
Things happen during the manufacturing process, that's understood. The issue is how customer service responded to the OP's situation.
You're not a jerk for expecting to get exactly what you paid for.

[Tony Zaffuto]

Getting a most perfectly fine Narex mortise chisel, for 1/4th the cost (maybe less.), you might expect a few imperfections. Paying the price for this IBC chisel, I would expect not only for it to be within all STATED specs, but that, without my assistance, magically do the mortises.

Gentlepeople, I have to say, much of our thinking has been seriously corrupted by YouTube “influencers” that hawk goods. Where has skill building gone? Why do we think we need (almost) aircraft tolerances on our plane soles or sides of mortise chisels? Why? Because an influencer told us it is important and a vendor has stepped selling the spiel. The chisel tolerance won’t make us better. TableSaw Tom has said it best on forums, that more plane soles are screwed up by improper flattening methods

In any case, if I’m paying $150.00 for a tool and the vendor guarantees a tolerance, the tool had better be in tolerance.

[Pete Taran]

Here is what Henry Disston said about quality back 175 years ago:

http://www.vintagesaws.com/images/sawart/titlepage.JPG

[Rafael Herrera]

This thread and the chisel in question has been interesting. I don't really know whether the specs of the chisel make it a better one or not. The vintage cutters designed to cut a groove I've seen, plough plane cutters, mortise chisels, Stanley #50 cutters, all have a relief angle, ie not square sides. So, I lean on the "doesn't make it a better tool" camp.

What I guess is that the marketing gimmick is the vendor makes something with a trivial feature that the customer can "verify". What's simpler than taking a square or a straight edge and measure "something"? Steel composition, hardness, toughness, handle shape, etc. characteristics that one can argue are of far greater importance are ignored. Obviously, we can't measure the exact % of carbon or chromium or whatever is in the steel so we have to live with what we get and content ourselves with obsessing about how square some angle is.

It's also true that for $150 the vendor better damned well deliver the tool with the silly specifications they trumpet.

[Jack Dover]

It really depends where exactly it's out of spec. 0.005" is about half of a pencil line width, so yeah, it's quite a perceptible tolerance. If a cutting edge is this much out of square for example you'll notice your mortises aren't plumb.

[Jack Dover]

To me as one who has worked in more than one stockroom, it indicates a person who wasn't paying attention to what they were doing

Slightly offtopic: I'm in retail for as long as I can remember it and I'm yet to find a picker\packer who would be paying attention. Not that they're brainless, it's just it's impossible to pay any attention when you've got literally thousands of things to be put into thousands of boxes. For a packer to reject an item it should be obviously damaged, like snapped in half or a box is badly damaged, etc. Pickers\packers are not responsible for quality of items, it must have been ensured before and all inventory going to customers assumed to be of acceptable quality by the time it gets into a box. Quality control is responsibility of whoever accepts inventory into a warehouse, but I really doubt that anyone would check every incoming chisel with a filler gauge. And I think what really has happened after "we will pay special attention" is customer support just filed an order replacement and a packer just grabbed a next chisel out of a source box.

So the actual issue is probably somebody overpromised and now can't go back on it. Happens all the time.

[Jim Koepke]

Slightly offtopic: I'm in retail for as long as I can remember it and I'm yet to find a picker\packer who would be paying attention. Not that they're brainless, it's just it's impossible to pay any attention when you've got literally thousands of things to be put into thousands of boxes. For a packer to reject an item it should be obviously damaged, like snapped in half or a box is badly damaged, etc. Pickers\packers are not responsible for quality of items

It depends on how a company is structured. I've worked in manufacturing where everyone was in a position to stop the process if something wasn't right.

I've also worked in places where no one wanted to be responsible for anything.

Some companies have stock numbers that can actually describe a part. Other companies just assign the next number on the list to parts randomly. At one company the engineers and designers were "too busy" to look up previously assigned part numbers and would just assign a new number to a part that already had a part number. This caused more than a few problems (that company is no longer in business).

I've also worked in a manufacturing situation where the quality inspector was receiving a kickback to accept parts that didn't met specs. He was fired.

There are all kinds of ways of running a business. Some can run it to a good position in their industry, others will run it into the ground.

jtk

[Mark Maleski]

It really depends where exactly it's out of spec. 0.005" is about half of a pencil line width, so yeah, it's quite a perceptible tolerance. If a cutting edge is this much out of square for example you'll notice your mortises aren't plumb.

I've never placed a square against my mortise chisel. It's a miracle I've been making square mortises all this time! :rolleyes:

[Jim Koepke]

I've never placed a square against my mortise chisel. It's a miracle I've been making square mortises all this time! :rolleyes:

Neither have I. Then again none of my mortise chisels came to me with a claim of being the best mortise chisel made by man at the cost of $150.

In fact there are four very good mortise chisels in my shop that all together cost less than that.

jtk

[Brian Hale]

I completely agree that is a product doesn’t meet stated specifications it should be replaced at no cost to the buyer as fast as possible. The problem here is the stated specifications.

From Robs website….. sides square to the back (+/- .002 of an inch accuracy).

There’s a picture of a square sitting against the side of a chisel. Since there is no mention of parallelism are we to assume that the specified tolerance applies to each side individually and if so then the width can vary +/-.004 from the back to the face, or worse yet the chisel could be a parallelogram.

Also from the website….. Each chisel is tested on a granite reference surface to ensure the back is flat to within .0005 of an inch.
Flatness is a measure of a surface, not an edge. You cannot measure the flatness of anything with shim stock on a surface plate. I’ve seen several folks use that method to measure flatness of plane bodies and sharpening stones. At best you’ll determine that the area where you try to slip the shim stock under the item meets the surface plate but not the area between the edges.
Watching the video on the site, a .0005 piece of shim stock is placed on the surface plate and the chisel laid on top it. He can’t easily pull the shim stock out so the chisel is declared flat. This test tells us nothing. Using that method the back could be concave by a large amount and still pass the test or to take it to and extreme, it could have an 1/8” groove, 1/8” deep that runs the length of the chisel and still be declared flat. The back could also be twisted and still pass.

Rob is a good teacher and does a lot of good for our veterans and I have great respect for him but he’s giving us incomplete and intentionally misleading information to inspire us to buy.

Buyer beware

[Richard Coers]

4 pages and almost 2 weeks of discussion over the tiniest amount of measurement, not performance of a chisel, confirms my belief in the futility of what the woodworking hobby has become. First in purchasing a $150 chisel, and then not even cutting wood. Our ancestry of noble craftsman must be spinning in their graves.

[steven c newman]

Or...just laughing their rearends off....( I am...)

Sounding like a "He said,She said" sort of much ado about.....nothing?

[David Carroll]

I don't really have a dog in this fight, but Brian makes a good point about measuring flatness. Attempting to slide a feeler gauge isn't a very good method to determine flatness of a surface. For that you would need a fixture to hold the tool parallel to a surface plate and use a surface gauge with a last word indicator or the like.

I don't understand how they call out squareness using a linear measurement. When I call out angular measurements in machine parts, I use an angular measurements in degrees and seconds. There are also "standard tolerances," meaning if whoever specifies the design doesn't require tighter tolerances, they revert to standard tolerances, which for CNC machining is usually +/- 0.005-inches. You can, of course, call out anything you like, but as you tighten the tolerances, the price goes up. Based on standard tolerances, the straightness of the sides on the OP's chisel would be okay (barely).

It is really getting into the weeds here, and like Richard implies, isn't really relevant to woodworking. Most woodworkers wouldn't notice these small deviations, as long as they are within an RCH. ;-)

Still, for those of us in manufacturing, who are also woodworkers, it is an interesting discussion. I don't think that RC is intentionally misleading anybody.

DC

[Mel Fulks]

I’ve seen old fine quality mortise chisels with slight imperfections and know from old-timers that was the standard. So even though
many say “they don’t make ‘em like they used to” , they do.

[Jim Koepke]

I’ve seen old fine quality mortise chisels with slight imperfections and know from old-timers that was the standard. So even though
many say “they don’t make ‘em like they used to” , they do.

It may not be whether they are made like they used to or not.

The situation seems to be they are not being sold like they used to be sold. It is doubtful chisel makers and mongers in the 19th century were touting their wares as being machined to tolerances in the thousandths of an inch.

Most likely looked at what was available. If it looked good and they needed it, they would buy it.

Many likely purchased via catalogs and purchased from companies with trusted reputations. That basic method has continued for well over a century.

jtk

[John Keeton]

This thread has taken on a life of its own! It reminds me of the sharpening threads I have enjoyed reading. I’m still waiting on the sharpening thread that describes in detail and documented with high resolution photos, an edge on an iron that is a single straight line consisting of single crystal atomic structures of the steel used with all the structures aligned point to point. :D

[Patrick Baney]

4 pages and almost 2 weeks of discussion over the tiniest amount of measurement, not performance of a chisel, confirms my belief in the futility of what the woodworking hobby has become. First in purchasing a $150 chisel, and then not even cutting wood. Our ancestry of noble craftsman must be spinning in their graves.

Thanks for checking in Richard. Two weeks and you're still missing the point of this thread. The point was to get an idea of how fellow woodworkers hold manufactures to the standards which are advertised. I clearly stated in my original post that I wasn't here to discuss the importance of squareness in a mortise chisel. Nor was I here to provide a review on the performance of said chisel, so I'm not sure what wood-cutting update you're expecting. Truth be told, you're right - I haven't used the chisel yet. Maybe when my 2 & 3 year old grow up I'll have more than a couple hours a week to validate such a futile thread with some performance updates.


Since the price point is such a hot topic...do we also think Lie Nielsen's 1/4 mortise chisel is overpriced at $125? If so, fine, then we stalemate at the age old argument of new vs old tools. We can put that argument where the sharpening arguments are. If not, then do some research on their handle design and compare it to IBCs, and you'll find the additional $25 is well spent.

I appreciate the input everyone else has provided. It has given me some perspective on both sides.

[Mark Maleski]

It's also true that for $150 the vendor better damned well deliver the tool with the silly specifications they trumpet.

That’s hilarious! Honestly this entire thread could’ve been distilled down to just that one line.

[Tony Zaffuto]

That’s hilarious! Honestly this entire thread could’ve been distilled down to just that one line.

That’s the crux of the matter: if you’re selling a bill of goods with stipulated tolerances to support a stratospheric price, you need to supply those tolerances.

Personally, I view those specifications only as a gimmick to get the newbies, etc, to buy.

[Rafael Herrera]

This thread also reminds me of this story. I was in New York city for work and decided to swing by the Tools for Working Wood store. I enquired about the Ray Iles mortise chisels. They had some in the back room, the salesman told me there were minor cosmetic issues with the chisels, they won't ship those to customers because they know they'll be returned. When I asked how much would they sell them to me it was full price, so I declined.

One pays for quality, but how one knows something has good quality where it matters is a different story. In my opinion, when they slap someone's name on a product line, that to me is a red flag. I could care less if a product has Rob Cosman, Rachel Ray, or Martha Stewart on it. These people either are paid to have their name used or are banking on their fame to jack up the prices. It's a marketing gimmick.

The OP is not a jerk, he has the right to demand what they advertise. He could have gotten a better bang for his bucks somewhere else, but that's a different topic.

[steven c newman]

So...how much would they charge for of these?
502544
6 chisels sitting there..and being used....Hmmm$150 each? Or....$1.50 each?

[Keegan Shields]

$150 each only if you can forge a passable Rob Cosman signature :)

[Tony Zaffuto]

The spaceship tolerances are not needed, but if some goomer is selling that sizzle with the steak, then buyers will be ticked when they find they could have bought a perfectly acceptable Narex for 25% the cost of the high priced spread.

[Patrick Baney]

Rob's name is nowhere to be found on these mortise chisels. It's an IBC chisel which Rob distributes and markets. These chisels can also be purchased directly from IBC.



The spaceship tolerances are not needed, but if some goomer is selling that sizzle with the steak, then buyers will be ticked when they find they could have bought a perfectly acceptable Narex for 25% the cost of the high priced spread.

No. I have two narex mortise chisels and their parallelogram geometry makes it impossible to chop a rectangular mortise. They're visibly out. Some may be ok with this, but I am not.

[steven c newman]

Just use a couple Narex Mortise chisels on the Garden Bench I just finished for the Gazebo.....no issues found IN the chisels.
502565
I also have a 12mm Japanese Mortise Chisel...and a Witherby 3/8" Mortise chisel.....other than width...no differences found...
502566
These were 3/4" deep, BTW, IN Ash....

28 6mm wide mortises....with a 6mm Narex Mortise chisel...
502567
No issues found..

[Ron Selzer]

That’s the crux of the matter: if you’re selling a bill of goods with stipulated tolerances to support a stratospheric price, you need to supply those tolerances.

Personally, I view those specifications only as a gimmick to get the newbies, etc, to buy.

agree, 100%
doesn't matter what someone else can do with a $1.50 yard sale chisel. If you advertise something with high specs for high dollars, then you better deliver.
Ron

[Jim Koepke]

…

No. I have two narex mortise chisels and their parallelogram geometry makes it impossible to chop a rectangular mortise. They're visibly out. Some may be ok with this, but I am not.

Maybe it was my day to get lucky when my 1/4" Narex mortise chisel was purchased.

It works fine:

502571

There are twenty four fine mortises, a few extras were cut for checking, tenons for square and marking for draw boring.

If their geometry made them useless, the vendor would have been called. At a price of less than twenty bucks they may have asked if I could grind it myself or they may have offered a replacement.

jtk

[Jim Koepke]

I enquired about the Ray Iles mortise chisels. They had some in the back room, the salesman told me there were minor cosmetic issues with the chisels, they won't ship those to customers because they know they'll be returned. When I asked how much would they sell them to me it was full price, so I declined.

Did you see the chisels? I often find with product in hand and an offer to take the worst one they have is often good for 5-10% to make the deal.

One time at a hardware store that had been closed for years the people who owned it finally had a closeout sale. I had gone back for second look.

It was my intention to try again for a snath (the long handle on a scythe). One of the other people who was in line with me earlier told me the snaths were now tagged at $8. Only one of them in the bundle was. After cutting the bundle string and extracting one of the nicer ones, my request to get it tagged at $8 like the other one was met with a claim that it should be $15. The one with the $8 tag was a bit rough. The guy gave me a strong vibe that if the one marked $8 wasn't taken, the tag was going to be removed. So the one with the $8 tag was taken. We got to talking about the blades. It turns out they had all already sold. My blade is good, but the snath is a bit rickety. My blade is marked Shapleigh, when told about this and how that name was changed to Diamond Edge the guy told me the blades they had were Diamond Edge.

The snath works fine and a little sanding took care of the rough areas.

We recently purchased a new freezer. One of the delivery people showed me a tiny ding on the door. He told me to call it in and that it would noted in the paperwork. He said I should ask for 25%. The dent was smaller than a dime and it is almost unnoticeable. The rep on the phone offered my 15%. I took it as it was more than the cost of the extended warrantee.

It comes down to know what you are buying and sometimes you can negotiate a break and sometimes the vendor will send you less than that for which you bargained.

jtk

[Rafael Herrera]

Did you see the chisels? I often find with product in hand and an offer to take the worst one they have is often good for 5-10% to make the deal.

I did. The handle and the blade where not in alignment, the handle was a bit twisted with respect to the blade. I asked for a discount, he called his boss and asked. The answer was no discount. In any case, I was not convinced the misaligned handle would not be a problem in actual use. Those chisels are like $120, so they're not cheap. I bought other tools, but passed on the chisel.

[steven c newman]

What I USE in MY shop, YMMV, of course...
502573
Hmmm..I guess I have a 10mm instead of a 12mm Narex....
From front to rear:
3/8" Witherby
10mm Narex
8mm Narex
6mm Narex
12mm Japanese
1/4"
and 1/8" wide Mortise chisels...
502574
Looks like it...all I worry about is IF they are sharp enough to do the jobs

[Mark Maleski]

I have two narex mortise chisels and their parallelogram geometry makes it impossible to chop a rectangular mortise. They're visibly out. Some may be ok with this, but I am not.

This is why I favor English mortise chisels (“pigstickers”) over sash mortise chisels. Besides being beefier, they are designed with a trapezoidal shape so machinist-level tolerances are unnecessary.

[Cameron Wood]

Still trying to deal with $150 for a 1/4" chisel...

[Patrick Baney]

Still trying to deal with $150 for a 1/4" chisel...

Then don’t. I’m not some anomaly. Woodworkers regularly spend 125 on lie nielsen chisels and I think Veritas is in the same range. I feel the IBC has noteworthy improvements over those so I’ll pay for those.

[Edwin Santos]

Personally I don't see where the price is relevant. Whether the chisel was $20 or $200, your issue seems to be that what you received did not live up to what the seller promised. Sounds like the customer service was lacking which added insult to injury.

Just out of curiosity, if the seller's advertising had promised tolerances more in line with what you received would you have purchased the chisels in the first place?
If yes, then I'd say get over it, and if no, then I see why you're disillusioned.

I feel when sellers promise super high quality standards, they are basically setting their own bar and recruiting discriminating customers. It should not be a surprise if they are held to task for shortfalls.
Just one more person's $.02 here.

[Dave Roock]

You were absolutely not being a jerk in the least - and anyone calling your report a rant should be flat out ashamed for doing so. Obviously they source their tooling out ( probably with the usual culprits in China ) and got a batch of defectively milled mortise chisels. Rather than taking the loss and keeping customers happy, they did what they did ( shameful). Pathetic they could not find even 1 chisel to match their marketing claims.

[Richard Coers]

You guys can't let this dead horse rest in peace?

[Jim Koepke]

You guys can't let this dead horse rest in peace?

It is an all to familiar yet never ending story of a product being hyped beyond reality and a customer who is not happy when the product not being all it was promised to be.

jtk

[steven c newman]

"Buyer beware"? Seems to be time to Archive this thread...and move on....

"Never Ending Story"......wasn't there a movie or two by that name?

[Jim Koepke]

"Buyer beware"? Seems to be time to Archive this thread...and move on....

"Never Ending Story"......wasn't there a movie or two by that name?

It seemed to have gone to rest two days ago, now that you bring it to our attention. :D

jtk

[Edward Weber]

It seemed to have gone to rest two days ago, now that you bring it to our attention. :D

jtk

Wait, is it over? Did I miss the ending? Who was the Jerk?

[Kent A Bathurst]

Wait, is it over? Did I miss the ending? Who was the Jerk?

Prince Harry.

[Richard Coers]

Prince Harry.
Good idea Kent. Let's make this into a political statement about jerks and that will get it killed. Smart!

[Mike Soaper]

This is the thread that doesn't end
Yes, it goes on and on, my friend
Some people started reading it not knowing what it was
And they′ll continue reading it forever just because

and repeat

sorry, couldn't resist :)

[Jim Ritter]

Just stopping in to see if we can get to seven pages.
Jim

[Kent A Bathurst]

Good idea Kent. Let's make this into a political statement about jerks and that will get it killed. Smart!


Well, as per the Constitution of the UK, Royalty is not permitted to engage in politics, so by definition I didn't make - nay, couldn't make - a political statement. Don't let facts get in your way, though. :)

The Royals are, however, apparently allowed to have whiny entitled children and miscreant brothers who come to The Colonies to suck up the tabloid oxygen. To my amusement. Hence Prince Harry as a reasonable reply to Edward's question.

See you in the funny papers.

[Rafael Herrera]

Just stopping in to see if we can get to seven pages.

It's only three pages for me. I have different settings. It's not that bad.

[Graham Haydon]

Getting a most perfectly fine Narex mortise chisel, for 1/4th the cost (maybe less.), you might expect a few imperfections. Paying the price for this IBC chisel, I would expect not only for it to be within all STATED specs, but that, without my assistance, magically do the mortises.

Gentlepeople, I have to say, much of our thinking has been seriously corrupted by YouTube “influencers” that hawk goods. Where has skill building gone? Why do we think we need (almost) aircraft tolerances on our plane soles or sides of mortise chisels? Why? Because an influencer told us it is important and a vendor has stepped selling the spiel. The chisel tolerance won’t make us better. TableSaw Tom has said it best on forums, that more plane soles are screwed up by improper flattening methods

In any case, if I’m paying $150.00 for a tool and the vendor guarantees a tolerance, the tool had better be in tolerance.

Yup! 100% right!

[Cameron Wood]

Getting a most perfectly fine Narex mortise chisel, for 1/4th the cost (maybe less.), you might expect a few imperfections. Paying the price for this IBC chisel, I would expect not only for it to be within all STATED specs, but that, without my assistance, magically do the mortises.

Gentlepeople, I have to say, much of our thinking has been seriously corrupted by YouTube “influencers” that hawk goods. Where has skill building gone? Why do we think we need (almost) aircraft tolerances on our plane soles or sides of mortise chisels? Why? Because an influencer told us it is important and a vendor has stepped selling the spiel. The chisel tolerance won’t make us better. TableSaw Tom has said it best on forums, that more plane soles are screwed up by improper flattening methods

In any case, if I’m paying $150.00 for a tool and the vendor guarantees a tolerance, the tool had better be in tolerance.




As near as I can tell, the chisel is within the claimed specs, but let's don't let that get in the way of a lively discussion.

[Patrick Baney]

As near as I can tell, the chisel is within the claimed specs

What makes you think this?

[Cameron Wood]

What makes you think this?

See post #26...

[Patrick Baney]

See post #26...

Ok, I see. So my original post said


Am I the jerk here?
They’re both identically about .6 degrees out. Rusty trig suggests these chisels are out of square by about .004, double the advertised .002 tolerance. This is easily observed by all my squares.


This is actually backwards...I measured how far out it was through feeler gauges, then used [really] rusty trig to deduce the angle of the sides. Apparently the trig was botched, and the angle of the sides deviates more than .6 from 90. Using a starrett square secured in a vise, I placed the bottom (back) of the chisel in the square and was able to fit a .004 feeler in, but not a .005. It is indeed out of spec.

[Edward Weber]

1/4" or 1/4 mile. out of tolerance is out of tolerance.

Why some are having such a hard time understanding.
OP bought a tool that should be X and it wasn't X it was something else.
He is not the jerk for simply trying to get what he paid for.
It doesn't matter what he bought or to what degree it wasn't correct.

[Cameron Wood]

Ok, I see. So my original post said



This is actually backwards...I measured how far out it was through feeler gauges, then used [really] rusty trig to deduce the angle of the sides. Apparently the trig was botched, and the angle of the sides deviates more than .6 from 90. Using a starrett square secured in a vise, I placed the bottom (back) of the chisel in the square and was able to fit a .004 feeler in, but not a .005. It is indeed out of spec.



OK, got it. I used a digital angle gauge- inexpensive and very handy.