Checks/cracks at the stile of wooden exterior door

[mreza Salav]

I made this 42"x96"x2.25" Honduran Mahogany door 9 years ago:
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https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?207022-Building-an-entry-door-(work-in-progress-)&highlight=

The stiles are stave core (from 1" thick Mahogany pieces I ripped and glued side ways) with 1/8" thick veneer glued. Door was glued-up with West system epoxy (true M&T). It was finished with General Finishes exterior 450 and I have scoff-sand-recoated it every 3 years. Was planning to do this year again when I noticed these.

I noticed that the bottom of the stiles have a couple of cracks (it's not just the veneer, looks like one of the pieces of the core have also cracked).
It's about 2-3 inch long. There is also a crack at the bottom of the bottom middle mullion.

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We are in Alberta and have very cold/dry winters. My guess is the bottom of the door wasn't finished properly (I finished the door after hanging and couldn't get enough top coat at the bottom).

I want to prevent further cracking and need advice. My thinking is to remove the door, try to fill the cracks with epoxy as well as try to have thin layer of epoxy at the bottom/top of the stiles to properly seal.
Does this sound good? Should I be doing anything else?

[Rich Engelhardt]

What direction does the door face? North, South, East, West?

My thoughts are that if the door faces South - facing the Sun - during bitter cold Winter days - being a rather dark color, there is a considerable amount of thermal shock --plenty enough to cause that. I've seen a lot of it here in NE Ohio over the years.

It's something we always tried to warn people about when they wanted darker colors for exterior use.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

What I see is an amazing success story. Exterior wood takes a beating. I steer people away from wood for exterior. Very few commercially produced wood doors will hold up as well as yours has. As far as how to prevent it getting worse, I do not know other than move it inside.

[mreza Salav]

It is facing east and tthere is a 5-6 feet covered porch.

Is using a flexible sealant to cover the end grain of stiles a better option than epoxy?

[Mel Fulks]

Yes. You could also put a moulded piece across extending an inch or more. Years ago I made some . I’m sure you can photos of such
things. To seal off driving rain get a piece of that vinyl cove stuff for the bottom , comes in lots of colors.

[Richard Coers]

Adding a thicker coating on the bottom is definitely needed. I don't have an opinion which of the two choices is better. The first time I was asked to put a sink in a solid wood countertop, I brushed on silicone caulk on the wood. Luckily they chose a flange mount. I would recommend not tacking on some kind of vinyl or silicone weatherstripping across and covering the bottom of the door. That just provides a seam that water can wick into and no air movement to dry the bottom of the door. Trapping water rots wood.

[Mel Fulks]

Richard , they have been using seals on USA space craft. Seals are necessary, only one failed .

[Rich Engelhardt]

Fabulous looking work. Maintained exactly how it should be.
My hat's off to you for that. Usually you don't see that type of pride, except for the owners of the old Lyman and Chris Craft wooden boats.

East facing, overhang, pretty much rules out anything thermal. Moisture is probably the culprit.
Yes - a good coat of epoxy thinned to sink in should help.

I'd avoid anything with Silicone in it since that could make any future coats of anything not be able to adhere.

[mreza Salav]

Thanks Rich. My earlier post got deleted by mistake:

So tipping the door upside down and letting thin epoxy sink into the ends would be a good idea I suppose.
Rain doesn't get to the door but I have seen blown snow get there and sure it can melt and get behind the door sweep and to the bottom of the door.
I'll make a piece that works better at keeping water from getting behind the door sweep.

[andy bessette]

I would mill the door bottom to accept edge-banding that sets into a wide rabbet. This would be epoxied in place as well as completely saturated with epoxy (as the door should have been, prior to applying any finish) and hidden by the metal strip.

[Richard Coers]

Richard , they have been using seals on USA space craft. Seals are necessary, only one failed .
What does space craft have to do with a wood door? I'm certain space craft won't crack and rot from water.

[Mel Fulks]

Looks like the material on the bottom of the door has gaps that hold water, and possibly leave the water no path but to exit thru the
narrow space. The wood piece I recommended makes the water exit farther from the door, keeping the bottom of the door dry.

[Rich Engelhardt]

Merza - yeah, if you can get by for a few days while the materials cure, taking the door off so you can really get a good amount of epoxy on the bottom can only help.

Are the sidelights ok?

As an aside - I remember when you built that place and how much I admired your ambition & the job you did on all the doors. I can't believe it's been almost 10 years!

[Kent A Bathurst]

So tipping the door upside down and letting thin epoxy sink into the ends would be a good idea I suppose.

I have a nagging suspicion that this might cause moisture to be trapped inside. Moisture won't stay entrapped - it will out, one way or another. So I'm wondering whether the door will need to be dismounted [unhinged?] as set in a controlled environment for a while to allow the moisture to exit. Then seal the bottom end grain.

[mreza Salav]

Merza - yeah, if you can get by for a few days while the materials cure, taking the door off so you can really get a good amount of epoxy on the bottom can only help.

Are the sidelights ok?

As an aside - I remember when you built that place and how much I admired your ambition & the job you did on all the doors. I can't believe it's been almost 10 years!

My plan is to do this in one day: remove the door, tip upside down, tape around the bottom, then inject thin epoxy into cracks and make a very shallow pool of epoxy (west system) at the bottom of stiles, let cure for a couple of hours, tip it again, do the same for the top. Then put the door back on without the door sweep. I'll install the door sweep next day.
I tried to be meticulous during the construction of the door as well as in maintaining it over the years. I should have had done this when I made it but I was a first timer!

Yeah, it's almost 10 years when I did all the work on those doors and railing, cabinets. I just finished the basement of the house, which included 12 more doors (built from scratch), cabinets, and home theater woodworking: https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?220868-Building-a-new-house-from-foundation-to-finishing-and-all-the-woodworking&p=3257918#post3257918

[mreza Salav]

I have a nagging suspicion that this might cause moisture to be trapped inside. Moisture won't stay entrapped - it will out, one way or another. So I'm wondering whether the door will need to be dismounted [unhinged?] as set in a controlled environment for a while to allow the moisture to exit. Then seal the bottom end grain.

Our weather here right now isn't too humid yet (in fact we have had a bit of a dry spring so far). So I think the moisture level isn't too high.

[Jeff Roltgen]

Product recommendation: Smith & Company CEPS (clear epoxy penetrating sealer). Designed for such applications, water thin for fast, deep absorption and should follow those fissures very well.

Jeff

[Kent A Bathurst]

Our weather here right now isn't too humid yet (in fact we have had a bit of a dry spring so far). So I think the moisture level isn't too high.

All tickety-boo, then.

[Andrew Pitonyak]

Product recommendation: Smith & Company CEPS (clear epoxy penetrating sealer). Designed for such applications, water thin for fast, deep absorption and should follow those fissures very well.

Jeff

Rather expensive, but it is amazing. It is made for applications like this (in my opinion).

[mreza Salav]

I talked to people at west system and explained the task and my plan (to use 105 system). He said many do use it for that purpose and suggested I can thin it down by adding 5% solvent (acetone or alcohol) for the first initial coat for deep penetration.

[andy bessette]

I talked to people at west system and explained the task and my plan (to use 105 system). He said many do use it for that purpose and suggested I can thin it down by adding 5% solvent (acetone or alcohol) for the first initial coat for deep penetration.

I have never heard of them recommending diluting their product with solvent. Who did you speak with there, if you don't mind?

[mreza Salav]

Don't remember the name of the agent but I asked for their technical department to ask specific questions about products and their use.

[andy bessette]

Thank you. I am extremely surprised to hear that the Gougeon Brothers team has actually recommended this as it was never mentioned in their book: "The Gougeon Brothers on Boat Building". And I remember them stating to "never add anything to their epoxy that is not specifically recommended by us". WEST stands for "Wood Epoxy Saturation Technique". The material is specifically formulated to saturate wood without the need for solvents. It contains no solvents particularly so that there will be no solvents to evaporate and cause the mix to shrink; it cures by chemical reaction to the catalyst--not from evaporating solvents.

Having nearly 50 years of experience using their products I would never dream of diluting it, even after hearing this second-party recommendation. And still think it would be a grave mistake to do so, as the solvent is bound to become entrapped and sealed within the wood, with no way to escape once the epoxy has cured.

[Kevin Jenness]

Thank you. I am extremely surprised to hear that the Gougeon Brothers team has actually recommended this as it was never mentioned in their book: "The Gougeon Brothers on Boat Building". And I remember them stating to "never add anything to their epoxy that is not specifically recommended by us". WEST stands for "Wood Epoxy Saturation Technique". The material is specifically formulated to saturate wood without the need for solvents. It contains no solvents particularly so that there will be no solvents to evaporate and cause the mix to shrink; it cures by chemical reaction to the catalyst--not from evaporating solvents.

Having nearly 50 years of experience using their products I would never dream of diluting it, even after hearing this second-party recommendation. And still think it would be a grave mistake to do so, as the solvent is bound to become entrapped and sealed within the wood, with no way to escape once the epoxy has cured.

Well, my 1985 edition of that book says nothing about prepping glue surfaces with 80# abrasives which is their current standard, so they may have learned a few things since then.

Thinning down West System resin in my experience results in a softer cured product. For penetration you may want to use a product specifically formulated for that application, like Smith's CEPS. I've never used it but it seems to have many acolytes.

[mreza Salav]

A Google search found the following document about thinning west system and the effects on Australia west system site.

https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.westsystem.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2019/07/thinning_epoxy.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjhr-PhgZb_AhXODjQIHZ_QAQMQFnoECCEQAQ&usg=AOvVaw2-DXMrTCFOLlMi-KJRqbPx

[andy bessette]

The very first line in that link reads: "“Can I thin WESTSYSTEM® epoxy so it will flow or penetrate easier?”The answer to that question is “yes, but not withoutconsequences.” Many of the advantages of thinningepoxy are offset by disadvantages in other areas ofepoxy performance."

That reads quite a bit differently than: "A WEST Systems technician recommended thinning with solvent."

[mreza Salav]

Isn't that strange....

[mreza Salav]

One more question before I undertake this task this weekend:
I have never been able to find a proper shoe/sweep and always used one of those U-shaped sweep ones for 1 3/4" doors and cut it into an L-shape and screwed from outside (as shown in the picture). One of the cracks is right over one of the screws so I want to make sure screw holes are also sealed. After considering several options I am thinking of: drilling a little larger holes (like 3/8" diameter) and then fill those holes completely with epoxy and then drill a smaller hole into that to accept the screws (so screw goes into epoxy instead of wood).
Does this sound a good solution? Am I overthinking this and is unnecessary or is a good change?

[Tom M King]

I was wondering if it would be better without that "sweep" on it. I have never used one. Is that something normal for snow country?

How about epoxying in threaded inserts and use machine screws?

Git Rot is a penetrating epoxy available in small quantities, but I have zero experience with it. Maybe Andy does.

https://www.amazon.com/Boat-Git-Rot-Penetrating-Epoxy-4-Ounce/dp/B000XBBFK0/ref=sr_1_4?hvadid=409932205594&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9009786&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=14020552940545395836&hvtargid=kwd-8762874083&hydadcr=7598_11324756&keywords=git-rot&qid=1685756130&sr=8-4

[mreza Salav]

I was wondering if it would be better without that "sweep" on it. I have never used one. Is that something normal for snow country?

How about epoxying in threaded inserts and use machine screws?

Git Rot is a penetrating epoxy available in small quantities, but I have zero experience with it. Maybe Andy does.

https://www.amazon.com/Boat-Git-Rot-Penetrating-Epoxy-4-Ounce/dp/B000XBBFK0/ref=sr_1_4?hvadid=409932205594&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9009786&hvnetw=g&hvqmt=e&hvrand=14020552940545395836&hvtargid=kwd-8762874083&hydadcr=7598_11324756&keywords=git-rot&qid=1685756130&sr=8-4

Oh it is absolutely necessary in our cold climate, even tiniest amount of hole for air to seep in will form frost when it is -30C outside. The first year when I had built the door I bought a "better" quality anodized aluminum shoe from Pemko and the aluminum would form a frost from inside. So I switched to cheap vinyl ones and no problem.
I thought about using threaded inserts but then I'll have to drill even bigger holes and I'm not sure if with epoxy they would form a proper seal of the hole. I won't be replacing the door shoe very often (maybe once every 5 years)....

[Ben Ellenberger]

One more question before I undertake this task this weekend:
I have never been able to find a proper shoe/sweep and always used one of those U-shaped sweep ones for 1 3/4" doors and cut it into an L-shape and screwed from outside (as shown in the picture). One of the cracks is right over one of the screws so I want to make sure screw holes are also sealed. After considering several options I am thinking of: drilling a little larger holes (like 3/8" diameter) and then fill those holes completely with epoxy and then drill a smaller hole into that to accept the screws (so screw goes into epoxy instead of wood).
Does this sound a good solution? Am I overthinking this and is unnecessary or is a good change?
That is exactly how you bed fasteners in wood-core fiberglass boats. You over-drill the hole, fill it with epoxy, then drill the fastener hole in the epoxy. This prevents moisture from rotting the wood core.

[mreza Salav]

That is exactly how you bed fasteners in wood-core fiberglass boats. You over-drill the hole, fill it with epoxy, then drill the fastener hole in the epoxy. This prevents moisture from rotting the wood core.

Wow! I am glad to learn this is in fact a common method used. Thank you.

[mreza Salav]

I removed the door, flipped upside down, sanded the bottom, taped around the edge (a little proud) and poured west system epoxy. After sanding it down a bit it's about 3/32" thick. Drilled holes and then filled with epoxy for the door shoe/sweep screws. Also injected a bit more epoxy into a few other spots that seemed the surface had opened up a bit but when I looked that the door (top/bottom) the glue joints were tight. Added 3 more coats of exterior finish. Put on new door sweep and seals. Looks good IMO after 9 years so far.

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[John TenEyck]

Nice work, Mreza. The fact that the crack goes diagonally through one of the staves makes me wonder if sunlight play a role in those cracks forming. Also, your tenon must be lower than the top of the cracks, and on the center mullion the tenon must be right where that crack occurred. With the mullion crack, in particular, I don't see how water played a role in the failure. I'm thinking sun was the prime contributor. The winter sun must hit that door at the bottom, yes?

John

[mreza Salav]

Thanks John. I think the crack may be very close to the tenon (here is the picture I have for the bottom rail mortises).
I don't think water has been an issue at all. The most likely cause must have been: 1) I couldn't get proper seal/coat at the bottom of the door as I finished coated the door after hanging it, and 2) sun. This door gets a lot of sun all winter/summer and it gets hot (hot to touch!). It is quite noticeable the fading of color of the door vs the 1/2" or so part around the edge that lays on the weather seal (those area's color hasn't changed much).

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[John TenEyck]

Oh yeah, I see how it's faded down near the bottom, now that you pointed it out. The tenons should help prevent the stave core from splitting with its cross-grain glue surfaces. I wouldn't be surprised if the cracks in the stiles end near the bottom edge of the lower tenon. In any case, you've done a nice job with the repair work. Hopefully, it will be clear sailing from here on out with nothing more than routine maintenance.

John