Looking for horizontal slicing bandsaw, g0503?

[dirk martin]

Hey gang. I resaw a lot, and it's really getting tiring pushing those boards thru the saw.
So, now I'm lookin at this:
https://www.grizzly.com/products/grizzly-12-20-hp-horizontal-resaw-bandsaw/g0503

Anyone up here have any experience with this saw? It's the Grizzly g0503

One thing that stumps me is that Grizzly also sells a 16" version of this saw, and they say it'll cut 1/16" veneers.
Both the 12" and 16" version have specs that state the closest the blade can get to the conveyer is 1/4". So, how is it achieving 1/16" stock, since slicing is generally performed from the bottom?

Just for general knowledge, I'm currently slicing using Grizzly and a MiniMax 24" saws....and I'm primarily slicing 1/8", 1/4", and 1/2" thins.

[Jeff Roltgen]

Wow - that would be a nice luxury in the shop...
Initially thought you would resaw off top of stock, but owner's manual seems to indicate you slice off the bottom, setting the desired height once. Guessing, if you need 1/6" right off this unit, you'd need to cut off the top of your stock, dropping blade by your 1/16" after each pass until you reach your minimum base layer of 1/4". I can understand the unit being limited to 1/4" off conveyor, if no other reason than to avoid blade drift causing catastrophic damage to the conveyor.
FWIW
jeff

[Bill Dufour]

Do a search for "pallet destroyer". I bet lots cheaper used. No idea if they are accurate enough for resawing.
Bill D

[John TenEyck]

I think Cody Michael has one of those.

Another option is to get a power feeder for your current saws.

John

[Dave Sabo]

:eek:As long as you’re tooling up , ya might as well get a saw with conveyor return ; yes ?

https://lagunatools.com/industrial/bandsaws/hrs-28hd/


these guys also have a clone of that Griz and I can’t believe it, but it’s less xpensive :eek:

[Will Blick]

Wow, that is a beast....
I have no knowledge about this saw, but I am curious about its purpose.
Yes, it has a 20HP motor, so its a work horse, that's obvious. I assume feed rate can be stepped up vs. standard 5HP bandsaw.
But it says max. cut piece is 12x12" ?? Really, is that a typo?
If its right, what would you use this for...seems very limiting.
Although the price point is impressive for such a massive machine, if someone does a lot of very high cost exotic thin veneers, it seems the waste factor (saw dust) is substantial vs. a true knife veneering machine that operates like an upside down hand plane with a feeder. No saw dust, all useful finished veneers. But of course, they are much more costly.
I am very curious of your intended use, and it might help others respond as well...

[dirk martin]

Wow - that would be a nice luxury in the shop...
Initially thought you would resaw off top of stock, but owner's manual seems to indicate you slice off the bottom, setting the desired height once. Guessing, if you need 1/6" right off this unit, you'd need to cut off the top of your stock, dropping blade by your 1/16" after each pass until you reach your minimum base layer of 1/4". I can understand the unit being limited to 1/4" off conveyor, if no other reason than to avoid blade drift causing catastrophic damage to the conveyor.
FWIW
jeff

Yes, slicing lumber that way will get you any thickness you want. However the big brother to this saw (the 16" version) specificaly states it will saw 1/16 veneers....which seems silly to even point out, because if you're slicing from the top, then of course you can slice 1/16" veneers....slicing from the top will get you any thickness you desire.

I'm just wondering if there's something special about the 16" wide slicer, vs this 12" wide slicer....

[dirk martin]

I think Cody Michael has one of those.

Another option is to get a power feeder for your current saws.

John

I do have a nice power feeder for my 24" Minimax, but it's soooo slow. Plus the accuracy isn't there, unless you crawl to a snail's pace. I'm hearing that these horizonal saws are accurate to .003

[dirk martin]

:eek:As long as you’re tooling up , ya might as well get a saw with conveyor return ; yes ?

https://lagunatools.com/industrial/bandsaws/hrs-28hd/


these guys also have a clone of that Griz and I can’t believe it, but it’s less xpensive :eek:

Well, Grizzly does have one with a conveyer return, but Griz is 28K vs the Laguna 33K.

[dirk martin]

Wow, that is a beast....

But it says max. cut piece is 12x12" ?? Really, is that a typo?
If its right, what would you use this for...seems very limiting.

What they mean is that it will resaw stock up to 12" wide, and the blade can be positioned up to 12" above the conveyer....so 12" wide, and 12" thick.
Of course, it can handle any length.

[dirk martin]

Wow, that is a beast....

I am very curious of your intended use, and it might help others respond as well...

I create 1/8", 1/4", 1/2", and 3/8" slices, from 4/4 stock, all day. I have a market for such, (as well as other wood components). Slice and sand...Slice and sand....rinse/repeat.

With labor getting harder and harder to find, I'm looking at this horizontal bandsaw, since I'm losing my primary resawing worker. This saw, tho pricey, should pay for itself in a year.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

The G0503 would be a good choice if you are working on long boards. With a 1/4 inch minimum height, My guess is that 1/16 slices must come off the top, or the work run through on a sled. A big saw with a roller fence and power feeder is what's used at the factory. The stock is seldom longer than 6 feet.

Here is a thread that shows rigs much like Mr. Dulak's rig. bandsaw power feeder (https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?229250-bandsaw-power-feeder)

[Will Blick]

Thx for the clarification Dirk, makes sense now ;)
Being in the wood supply field, and the crazy reduced labor market, these machines seem like a bargain at those prices ;) Especially if you can keep the machine running.
Do you have a website where you sell your veneers? Would love to have a look.

[Alex Zeller]

I've never seen the Grizzly (or the over clones to it) but I have seen a Wood-Mizer resawing saw a number of years ago. I don't know how accurate it is but it looked like a nice machine. I think it was 15hp model. But the owner was cutting pine so the conveyor was set to a very fast speed. It looked like it could do wider than 12". I don't remember much but I do remember it having a Baldor motor. There was just too many other tools to look at to focus on just one. Wood-Mizer has plenty of locations, might be worth talking to them and seeing if you can see one of their machines in operation.

[Kevin Jenness]

You might look at the Baker line of horizontal resaws. Woodmizer also makes one. Multi-head units are available. Seems like you have the market to pay back what would be an expensive machine for the typical small shop. Call up door component suppliers and see if they will share what they use for this task, and post your question on Woodweb as well. Here in VT there is an industry group where you might look for answers and no doubt there are others. https://vermontwood.com/

[Richard Coers]

Woodmizer sells multiple head resows if speed is what you want. Get the heads with electric motors and production levels will skyrocket. https://woodmizer.com/us/Products/Sawmills-Resaws-Edgers/Horizontal-Band-Resaws/HR500-Horizontal-Resaw

[Dirk Ellis]

I recently purchased the 16” version Grizzly Resaw, G0504. Its sells new for something like 25K, but i found this one used on FB Marketplace for 8K. I’m not normally a big Grizzly fan, but I’m really impressed with this saw. The fellow I bought it from had two of them, and made his living selling really high value instrument wood. He ran Lenox CT blades, and on the samples he ran for me when I was looking to buy the saw, the surface finish was so good you’d swear it had been run thru a wide belt. It’s a 25 HP motor requiring a 100 amp circuit, so I’m waiting for my shop to be finished so I can put it to work.

The saw head uses ball screws with rotary encoders, so I think the intent is sawing off the top with a predetermined step height. The 16” version also has a return conveyer, so I think its intended to be two person operation.

[dirk martin]

...Call up door component suppliers and see if they will share what they use for this task...

I live in Amish country. These guys make their doors of solid wood, thru and thru. No veneers on these babies....

[dirk martin]

The Grizzly G0503 (https://www.grizzly.com/products/grizzly-12-20-hp-horizontal-resaw-bandsaw/g0503) comes in at $15,100 (with shipping). Can cut up to 12" wide, using a 20HP motor @ 3Phase. I don't have 3Phase, so I'd have to deal with that. Manual blade tension...pretty much all adjustments are manual. Weighs in at 2,778 lbs.

The Woodmizer HR120 (https://woodmizer.com/store/Shop/Resaws-Bandsaws/HR120-Resaw-Bandsaw) comes in at $13,700 (no shipping needed due to proximity). Can cut up to 16" wide, using a 10HP motor @ single phase. All adjustments appear to be electric. No hydraulics either. Even the blade tensioning seems to be electric. Not sure if that's good or bad. Tips the scale at 980 lbs

The Laguna HRS-28 (https://beavertools.com/mbandhrs-28-laguna-hrs-28-horizontal-band-resaw.html?gclid=CjwKCAjw36GjBhAkEiwAKwIWyW9RgQezg dHpaqYCjm3JUBAB_Y_hlBHaClS_o06_0bvB0m9rU9qjZhoCa0s QAvD_BwE) is out of the running. Looks to be exactly the same machine as the Grizzly, but I've got a bad taste in my mouth ever since I bought my Laguna cyclone dust collector. It quickly became obsolete, and no parts were to be had. No online diagrams to consult.

I don't think I'm gonna consider the Baker (https://www.baker-online.com//store.aspx?panel=3&productid=2529&categoryid=679)unit. It starts at $19,840, and nowhere in their online specs do they talk about width capacity. All units seem to be 3 phase. I see the Baker's all over my Amish community, but they're all breaking down green cants into pallet stock. Baker doesn't seem to really be into the resawing of hard kiln dry 4/4 lumber. I vote no.

There is a used Grizzly G0504 (https://www.grizzly.com/products/grizzly-16-30-hp-3-phase-dual-conveyor-horizontal-resaw-bandsaw/g0504) about an hour from me, for $18K. Would cost $30,700 new from Grizzly. Looks very clean, and seller says "lightly used". Could be a good buy, but again, I'd have to deal with it being 3phase.
===========

I was thinking the 10HP on the WM was a little light. Then I thought about how I cut all day long with 5HP on both my vertical Grizzly and Minimax 24" saws.....so 10HP should be just fine. Makes me wonder if the 20HP on the Grizzly is a bit overkill, yielding a higher electric bill then I really need. Grizzly seems to have parts for years and years, after a machine is discontinued, and tho I have little experience with Woodmizer, I think we all know they have a solid track record....and have a dealer an hour from my shop.

Whatcha all think? Which way would you lean?

[Bradley Gray]

Take a trip to Indianapolis. Check out HR500 also. You could buy a single head unit and later add 2 more heads. Return table option.
I have a Kay RPC that runs 14 machines. Very reliable.

[Ron Selzer]

geo with a converter to three phase , either a rotary or a VFD and don't look back.
Ron

[Kevin Jenness]

I live in Amish country. These guys make their doors of solid wood, thru and thru. No veneers on these babies....

Sure, most cabinet doors are made with solid wood, but makers of architectural stile and rail doors commonly use "engineered" stile and rail components with thick veneers. I don't know what Dirk's veneers are used for but that would seem to be a natural market.

If I were in this situation I would be looking for production capacity. Heavy duty build, high hp, possibly multiple heads. If the market is there, why not have a machine that prints $100 bills rather than $20 bills? I would think 3 phase essential for a wide belt sander sized to match an industrial resaw. Easy to spend someone else's money, I know.

[Kent A Bathurst]

You should take a few minutes and look into Baker resaws.


I spent many years in the lumber remanufacturing bidness. That's where you buy from sawmills, then reman to other products. I worked out of corporate, dealing with a few dozen manufacturing plants. I did process design, plant layout, equip specs, blah, blah, blah.

I directed the purchase equipment and machinery, including a number of horizontal resaws, and the hands-down, go-to dog was Baker. They're as close to an industry standard as you can get in that product range. Robust, reliable, very good company. USA - SE Missouri.

Understand that I was not after veneer, rather after manufacturing production. But I don't think that matters. I needed to edge close to bulletproof. Wide range of capacities and capabilities.

File under "You get what you pay for" especially for USA manufactured, serviced, support, parts. Frequently available on Ex-Factory, but they never last long. You can always call their sales dept to discuss what you want to do, and they will be very helpful. They always came through with flying colors on their commitments.

https://www.baker-online.com/Products.aspx?categoryid=91

PS - FWIW, in my world, the bigger issue was not the saw itself, but the infeed and outfeed systems needed to keep up with the saw, running butt-to-butt @ 100+ LFPM. A pair of 2 x 4 side-by-side up to 2 x 12. Plus the dust system to pull all that dust out. The saw was not the big $$ in the equation. Veneer would not be run that fast, I'm assuming. :)

[Will Blick]

Kirk, this has turned into an interesting thread, even for those of us who would never own these machines, glad u are getting good feedback.

Kent makes some very valid points that I was going to mention as well. As for which maker, others have offered a lot of good feedback to consider. As for size, or expansion capability, a lot depends on what you think the future holds as for as potential sales volume. Always a difficult, but critical prediction. I like the analogy of printing $100 bills vs. 20s, but this assumes you feel the volume will be there. Seems there is surely a tradeoff between labor to run any machine vs. the how much out-feed product per hour is...i.e. the more product per hour, the less labor cost per hour, assuming same man count per hour is required.

AS far as electrical consumption....While I am generalizing a little bit here to keep my response simple and short.... The amount of electrical consumption is based on the load (work load here) not the size of the motors, or even if 3 phase / 240V / single phase 120V. Work volume, hardness of wood, sharpness of blades (ease of cut), optimum feed speeds, dust collection, (prob. a bigger component than you would think in an application like this) etc. will determine your elect. consumption. Regardless, electrical cost per saleable sheet is prob. minimal vs. your total cost of a sheet is my guess...specially if you are selling more costly woods.

I do want to mention though, you should look at your utility providers tariff, and thoroughly read it, as occasionally, there is some real "gotcha's" in how utilities can bill customers, things like Ratchet clauses, peak hour rates, etc. If this is the case, sometimes it just takes some clever scheduling to reduce electrical costs. OTOH, some utilities offer very simple tariffs, just $ per kwh, during certain ToD, Time of Day and ToY, Time of Year which are easy to understand. Other times, the tariffs are complex.

Of course, the bigger factor is... some utilities charge very little for power to start with...which is the biggest component... for example, I had a shop in AZ that charged about $.05 kwh on avg, about 7 years ago... now my shop here, $.50 kwh, yep, 10x. I have a lot of solar here to offset most of it, but that did not come cheap at $40K...but my ww electrical consumption is minimal (biggest motor is 5HP) vs. what you could potentially use running these huge saws with dust collection full time.

Of course, as you mentioned, lots of upfront costs to consider in addition to the machine...possibly to upgrade your dust collection and electrical, assuming you have the capacity. If you dont have sufficient capacity in the building, that too should be investigated, as unless you have a local tap for the added capacity, that up front cost could shock you. I was once quoted $90K to bring added capacity to a small building, good thing I ruled out that site! And as you add capacity, the tariff often changes as well, so be sure to read that new tariff rate structure in advance to avoid more gotcha's. Some utilities give breaks to large users, others charge more...some penalize for mid day usage, etc.

Lots to consider, but sounds like you are asking all the right questions....

[dirk martin]

Take a trip to Indianapolis. Check out HR500 also. You could buy a single head unit and later add 2 more heads. Return table option.
I have a Kay RPC that runs 14 machines. Very reliable.

I'll never need to add additional heads. I'm slicing 4/4 lumber. I'll get 3 or four slices max per board. The HR500 is overkill when the HR120 would do. I'm not slicing cants.

[dirk martin]

geo with a converter to three phase , either a rotary or a VFD and don't look back.
Ron

I assume "geo", should have been "Go".
Is single phase to 3 phase conversion like this no big deal? Or is it a major hassle?

[dirk martin]

If I were in this situation I would be looking for production capacity. Heavy duty build, high hp, possibly multiple heads.

Waaay overkill for me. Again, I'm simply looking to replace one guy that slicing on a 24" upright bandsaw (with poor accuracy). The accuracy on these horizonal saws, alone, will give me a significant boost on productivity.

[Kevin Jenness]

Is single phase to 3 phase conversion like this no big deal? Or is it a major hassle?

Not a big deal. Generally far less expensive than bringing in utility supplied 3 phase. VFDs get pretty expensive over 5hp so rotary convertors are more common in high hp applications, or digital converters like Phase Perfect.

[Ron Selzer]

no big deal for a good electrician. very commonly done in the agricultural world where the farm is out in the "boonies" and only has single phase power, gets more interesting when they are limited by electric provider to 15hp motors. There are three phase generator sets installed then, also when power company wants $100,000 and up to drag three phase power to them, some guys have posted over $1,000,000. I am making the assumption you are in town or close. As Kent and Will have brought up you also have other items to calculate into final cost. I would have to believe that with that size bandsaw you also want three phase for the dust collector and wide belt sander. However maybe you are just on the edge and can get by for a while with only the bandsaw on three phase. If you can get by with only the bandsaw on three phase then get your electrician to install a vfd for you. Will definitely start that motor a lot easier and easier on the electric bill every time it starts up!
A good electrician is your first need, after explaining to him what you want to do, then he can explain to you which he feels is your best route. Whether a VFD or to upgrade the electric service to include a new 3 phase panel to go along with existing electric service panels.
Good luck
Ron

[dirk martin]

Not a big deal. Generally far less expensive than bringing in utility supplied 3 phase. VFDs get pretty expensive over 5hp so rotary convertors are more common in high hp applications, or digital converters like Phase Perfect.

Are we talking like 1 grand, or several thousand dollars, if I wanted to run 20HP 3phase?

[Ron Selzer]

Are we talking like 1 grand, or several thousand dollars, if I wanted to run 20HP 3phase?

A good electrician would have to visit the site and gather information there to give you a valid quote.
You are into the multiple thousands of dollars however you go, too much depends on what you already have available. Then the VFD will be $1500 bare, bare minimum probably won't be happy with to $3000 for a nice working reliable one. No idea on phase converters and how hard a motor starts on one, IF it starts as hard as it does on three phase power then you will set new peak demand charges. Ones at work really get the conduits singing when starting.
Good luck
Ron

[Steve Jenkins]

I have a Kay rpc that will start 25 hp and run total of 75. Bought it 2004 and it was a bit over $3000 then. Installed it myself along with a 3 phase panel. I’ve had no problems with it. The folks at Kay are very helpful.

[dirk martin]

no big deal for a good electrician. very commonly done in the agricultural world where the farm is out in the "boonies" and only has single phase power, gets more interesting when they are limited by electric provider to 15hp motors. There are three phase generator sets installed then, also when power company wants $100,000 and up to drag three phase power to them, some guys have posted over $1,000,000. I am making the assumption you are in town or close. As Kent and Will have brought up you also have other items to calculate into final cost. I would have to believe that with that size bandsaw you also want three phase for the dust collector and wide belt sander. However maybe you are just on the edge and can get by for a while with only the bandsaw on three phase. If you can get by with only the bandsaw on three phase then get your electrician to install a vfd for you. Will definitely start that motor a lot easier and easier on the electric bill every time it starts up!
A good electrician is your first need, after explaining to him what you want to do, then he can explain to you which he feels is your best route. Whether a VFD or to upgrade the electric service to include a new 3 phase panel to go along with existing electric service panels.
Good luck
Ron

I am out in the sticks. Nothing but agriculture around me. And, I do have a good electrician near by.
So, it looks like I'd be looking at something like this (https://www.grizzly.com/products/grizzly-rotary-phase-converter-15-hp/g7978), if I was starting a 10HP? Or would this (https://www.grizzly.com/products/grizzly-rotary-phase-converter-10-hp/g5845)do?

[Jeff Roltgen]

20HP phase perfect ran me about $6k 3 years ago. Rotary can be had for about half that, but you'll need a 30-40HP with a rotary to adequately deal with a 20HP load. Conversely, my 20HP Phase Perfect runs my 20HP wide belt, which is a heck of a hard starting unit with no soft start circuitry on board.

jeff

[dirk martin]

I'm really starting to lean towards the Woodmizer HR120. 10HP, single phase, and I'm set......

[Greg Parrish]

I know the Woodmizer sawmills are made in USA. I'm assuming their resaw machines are also. Regardless, I don't think you would go wrong with Woodmizer. Plus you can add the powered automatic return and other accessories to it if you like.

[Ron Selzer]

I am out in the sticks. Nothing but agriculture around me. And, I do have a good electrician near by.
So, it looks like I'd be looking at something like this (https://www.grizzly.com/products/grizzly-rotary-phase-converter-15-hp/g7978), if I was starting a 10HP? Or would this (https://www.grizzly.com/products/grizzly-rotary-phase-converter-10-hp/g5845)do?

!st choice maybe,
2cd choice Grizzly says

Starting capacity: 8 HP

Personally, I would set a VFD just for the starting alone. I have a 2hp bandsaw in the basement shop and use a 3hp vfd to provide 3 phase power to it. Cost less than $100 when I did it in 2021 and it starts so easy.
I was way off on my price estimates, found 10hp 3 phase converter on Amazon for $400, MYS-PS-15, vfd's about the same price. maybe total junk, may work fine.
Get with the good local electrician you know and listen to him. The installed cost will be more about the labor, materials, etc. then the converter.
Good luck
Ron

[Alex Zeller]

I took at some images of the Wood-Mizer site and it looks like they use Baldor motors. If so that would be a huge plus for me. I think Grizzly oversizes it's motors when possible to keep them from burning up if pushed too hard. For example their 8" jointers come with 3hp motors while my Powermatic only has a 2hp in it. Which ever way you go keep us updated. It's been a fun read.

[Will Blick]

> I have a 2hp bandsaw in the basement shop and use a 3hp vfd to provide 3 phase power to it. Cost less than $100 when I did it in 2021 and it starts so easy.

Ron.... In yesteryear, (30 yrs ago?) I used to install "Soft Starts" when they were popular, but they seemed to fall out of favor....but agreed, start is so nice....but all my 5HP machine start with minimal "jolt", prob. because RPM is not that great on most ww machines, AND they start unloaded. (vs. HVAC fans or pumps)
But u peaked my curiosity on what motivated you to do this?

If surge is a concern as in this thread, even with multiple motors, as mentioned by a previous poster, to avoid the simultaneous start surge which "sometimes" can be an issue...just stage their starts.

[Bradley Gray]

I think you are right. A single phase 10hp unit will get you up and running quickly. All you need is a 60 amp circuit.

[dirk martin]

Let's digress a tad bit....

Most of these horizontal resaws are being used to cut green lumber it seems....pallet stock.
Thus, they "cool" the blade with soapy water, or oil of some sort.
I really don't want either on my expensive resawn kiln dry stock.
Do I just not use that "feature", and turn it off?
Afterall, I'm not aware of people "cooling the blade" on their vertical resaws....I certainly never have.

Also, Dirk Ellis mentioned the outstanding finish from the Lennox CT blade. FYI, it's the only blade I run in my shop....just wish it could be resharpened.

[Kent A Bathurst]

I don't think I'm gonna consider the Baker (https://www.baker-online.com//store.aspx?panel=3&productid=2529&categoryid=679)unit. It starts at $19,840, and nowhere in their online specs do they talk about width capacity. All units seem to be 3 phase. I see the Baker's all over my Amish community, but they're all breaking down green cants into pallet stock. Baker doesn't seem to really be into the resawing of hard kiln dry 4/4 lumber. I vote no.


They have 8" machines, 12" machines, and 12" that will saw on a bevel. 3 phase yes. Pallets, yes, but also kiln dried stuff. You're correct, though, that 4/4 hardwood is not their wheelhouse. I just wanted you to know they existed.

I have a hard time imagining a 10hp making any kind of progress through 12"+ KD hardwood, but that's not my area.

[dirk martin]

I have a hard time imagining a 10hp making any kind of progress through 12"+ KD hardwood, but that's not my area.

I do it every week, with 5hp....oak and maple.

[Kent A Bathurst]

As I said - not my area. I never bought a saw with less than 20, but 30-40 was more like it for this type resaw. 100 on gang rip. Ungodly on whole-plant dust collection.

Completely different critters in terms of products :)

I'll be interested in where you land, and what the performance is like for you

[Kevin Jenness]

I'm really starting to lean towards the Woodmizer HR120. 10HP, single phase, and I'm set......

That is the simplest solution other than adding a powerfeed to your present machine. The shop I used to work for put a powerfeed on their 24" bandsaw and are happy with the increased accuracy, but they are not doing production work. For wide stock I think you would be better served by a dedicated horizontal saw with pressure rollers/feed belt that contact the full stock width. I would want to see a demonstration using my typical material before committing to a substantial investment. Maybe the vendors can refer you to some owners willing to show what they do.

[Ron Selzer]

> I have a 2hp bandsaw in the basement shop and use a 3hp vfd to provide 3 phase power to it. Cost less than $100 when I did it in 2021 and it starts so easy.

Ron.... In yesteryear, (30 yrs ago?) I used to install "Soft Starts" when they were popular, but they seemed to fall out of favor....but agreed, start is so nice....but all my 5HP machine start with minimal "jolt", prob. because RPM is not that great on most ww machines, AND they start unloaded. (vs. HVAC fans or pumps)
But u peaked my curiosity on what motivated you to do this?

If surge is a concern as in this thread, even with multiple motors, as mentioned by a previous poster, to avoid the simultaneous start surge which "sometimes" can be an issue...just stage their starts.

I don't have 3 phase power at home for the saw, ordered and paid for a control panel for a 3 hp motor to make a rotary phase converter and it had not shown up(only showed up after filing a complaint with PayPal about non delivery). I bought the VFD from Amazon for less than $100, wired it up and saw runs great. Months later the control panel showed up. It still is in a box somewhere and a brand new 3hp, 3 phase motor is sitting in the garage unneeded. Really enjoy how smooth the saw starts and sometime need to program the deceleration time to stop it.

The old high school where I work was torn down a couple years ago, it had a 25hp fan on the cooling tower, probably about 75' of wire from starter to motor. This conduit ran thru the boiler room, I would be doing summer maintenance on the boilers/pumps and the tower fan turned on. Could hear that wire sing over top of the radio. Sure this was "cheap", multiple starts an hour. Kept requesting to put a VFD on that unit and was turned down. Energy Consultants said not economical to do this. Yet had VFD's on 7.5 to 20 hp motors thru out the building. Obviously was missed on last energy audit/upgrade and could not be admitted to now. Junior high had a smaller motor on the cooling tower and it had a VFD.

As to the original poster, he is running a business and should have a demand meter, anything that keeps from setting a new peak or lowers his peak needs to be considered to control costs.
Ron

[Maurice Mcmurry]

I think you are right. A single phase 10hp unit will get you up and running quickly. All you need is a 60 amp circuit.

10 hp is darn big for single phase. The vacuum pump for the dairy is 10 hp single phase, when that thing starts the dusk to dawn lights at the neighbors farm go out for a few seconds. The heavy 3 phase loads in the shop that are powered by the roto-phase do not cause this nor does starting the roto-phase.

[Alex Zeller]

The only difference I can see between a horizontal resaw bandsaw and a band mill is the resaw has two arms that push down on the wood to hold it on the conveyor belt. The infeed side shouldn't matter but I could see the outfeed one pinching the blade at the very end of the cut. Other than that I don't see why a 10hp electric resaw saw would perform any different than a 15hp bandmill. I know plenty of people who mill hardwood around here with saws less than 15hp without issue. I'm sure you are not going to cut at the max speed of the conveyor belt but I bet if you're doing it alone it'll be more than fast enough to keep you busy. With Wood-mizer being close I would call them and see if you can arrange a demo. See how it does cutting something like hard maple or oak (knowing that a sharp carbide Lenox will most likely cut faster/ better than the blade on the saw).

[Will Blick]

Interesting Ron...
VFD's rarely have good economic payback...the rare circumstance is when a system is over designed, and provides extra capacity all year when not needed, such as a LARGE HVAC fan that delivers constant speed regardless of the load. (a poorly designed system) Especially if there is huge load variance. But it requires more than a VFD, as the VFD must have knowledge (input) of the situation...so, one thing leads to another, and before you know it, you have a large project that yields 20yr paybacks. With cooling towers, they can cycle on and off when set point is reached, so there is a nice size buffer (the water mass and the associated latent energy of natural evaporation) But if money was no object, I agree that VFD's not only provide a smooth operation, but increases the lifespan of the motors, and other components as a result, especially the bearings, motor mounts, etc. But this is rarely considered during design, low cost wins. Sorry for the tangent.

As for the OP and electrical demand charges...many utilities do not even charge for demand, while others base all their tariffs off of peak demand..and some even ratchet the demand for some serious year round consumption penalties. Hence why I suggested to the OP to investigate his rate structure...but overall, the loads he is talking about now are small enough where it should be a non issue, as this thread went from minor loads to much more significant loads with some of those huge machines, which turned out to be overkill for his needs.

[Ron Selzer]

Will
I don't have the training to calculate the savings, however have been the installing tech on energy retrofits for schools back in the 90's. One of the first things that happened was to put VFD's on all the pumps and any AHU's over 5hp. The sales engineers told me the pay back was quick on those. Had to be as new roofs were typically part of the project along with profit and overhead for the companies I was working for. My first exposer to VFD's were 250hp driving parrell 125hp fans new construction, down to 20hp in 1988. During the 1990's dropped down to 5hp as drives progressed. Now they are so cheap that even 1hp get them.
Locally they hit the business hard on demand charges. Back when I was in construction was told to stagger the starts, also to limit starts per hour both for demand and to keep from overheating the motors. One building I worked on, once 5pm rolled around was allowed to start all the chillers to make ice for the next day as enough people had left to drop the load from elevators running.
Have learned different things as this thread progresses, that is the nice thing about this forum, lot of different professionals on here sharing their knowledge and experiences.

[Will Blick]

Ron, not wanting to hijack this thread, so just a few comments. You have worked with some very large motors. I managed an engineering division of a Fortune 100 company that did the consulting work for these type of applications, as well as utility rate analysis studies throughout the USA. So often I (or my team) was the guy doing the studies for such recommendations. But I have been retired from that field for 25+ years now.

As I mentioned previously, what was remarkable to me was, how the same application of energy conservation measures in one part of the country offered a reasonable payback, say 3-4 years, but yet, in another part of the country it would offer a 30yr payback (not feasible). It was not unusual to see the cost of utilities alone being 10x greater in certain parts of the USA vs. others. This radically shifted what measures were economically feasible by the cost of the utilities and subsidies offered, not by the conservation measure itself. Certain areas like Philadelphia had the extremely high demand ratchet clauses you refer to, which made the measures there, unique vs. most other major cities. Other times, the sensible payback projects were driven by subsidies, often funded by the utilities, forced by the state / Fed programs in place. But as always, utilities get all rebates and subsidies reimbursed through the rate base. Interestingly enough, all the State and Fed. subsidies which created the conservation boom as they made conservation projects cost effective....those subsidies shifted around the mid 90's from demand side, to supply side, i.e. more cost effective and cleaner energy generation, mostly renewables. Some large utilities would fund $1 Billion in subsidies for a given program. Utilities are Monopolies and its remarkable how big some of them are.

Anyway, hopefully some of this is helpful for large ww energy users, as energy cost keeps rising and can be a consideration for large manufacturing plants.

[Ron Selzer]

Will thanks for the information. I have worked only in Central Ohio.
Ron

[dirk martin]

Now I just found someone that has a Grizzly G0504 (https://www.grizzly.com/products/grizzly-16-30-hp-3-phase-dual-conveyor-horizontal-resaw-bandsaw/g0504) for sale, about 200 miles from me. He said it's lightly used, and he'd take $15K for it.
Now, my indecision gets worse.....right when I was leaning towards the Woodmizer......

501702

[Bradley Gray]

Nice. What would it cost to supply 30hp 3 phase? I'm guessing it's close to 200 amps.

[Dave Sabo]

Now I just found someone that has a Grizzly G0504 (https://www.grizzly.com/products/grizzly-16-30-hp-3-phase-dual-conveyor-horizontal-resaw-bandsaw/g0504) for sale, about 200 miles from me. He said it's lightly used, and he'd take $15K for it.
Now, my indecision gets worse.....right when I was leaning towards the Woodmizer......


This seems like you're letting (false) emotion cloud your decision. You had ruled this machine out a day or two ago. Why?

Simply on price ? That wasn't my impression. The 30h.p. / three phase is gonna sink both your time clock and wallet to get it up an running. Seems like you're getting in a lather because it's a "deal" . But, is it really ? If he bought it pre-pandemic; the asking price may be more than he paid for it. And you still have the power issue to deal with.

From a business standpoint this machine either works for you at full price or it doesn't. If it doesn't, the "discount" doesn't all of a sudden make it so.

[Bradley Gray]

Dave makes some good points. I looked at the 10hp Woodmiser- looks like a money maker. I think the cost and time involved in setting up 30hp 3phase would be major. Plus, it would really make your meter spin!
Having parts within driving distance Ang good tech support is another plus.

[dirk martin]

Nice. What would it cost to supply 30hp 3 phase? I'm guessing it's close to 200 amps.

About $4,000

[dirk martin]

This seems like you're letting (false) emotion cloud your decision. You had ruled this machine out a day or two ago. Why?

Simply on price ? That wasn't my impression. The 30h.p. / three phase is gonna sink both your time clock and wallet to get it up an running. Seems like you're getting in a lather because it's a "deal" . But, is it really ? If he bought it pre-pandemic; the asking price may be more than he paid for it. And you still have the power issue to deal with.

From a business standpoint this machine either works for you at full price or it doesn't. If it doesn't, the "discount" doesn't all of a sudden make it so.

Wow....talk about hitting the nail on the head....
You are soooo right.

[dirk martin]

Dave makes some good points. I looked at the 10hp Woodmiser- looks like a money maker. I think the cost and time involved in setting up 30hp 3phase would be major. Plus, it would really make your meter spin!
Having parts within driving distance Ang good tech support is another plus.

More good points, Bradley. You and Dave are both un-clouding my decision. Thanx

[dirk martin]

Well, I called Woodmizer today, to order my HR120, and they told me it's on a 47 week backlog. 47 WEEKS !!!

I don't wanna wait that long, so I'm back to the drawing board. That Woodmizer would slice up to 18", and ran on single phase 10hp.
The Grizzly G0503 will slice up to 12", and it comes with a 20hp 3phase. That 3phase puts it out of the running.

There's got to be another solution for a wide horizontal resaw out there, that runs on single phase....
Anyone got any ideas?

[Kevin Jenness]

Have you given much thought to putting a powerfeed on your existing saw? You haven't really indicated what your production requirements are- is a $15k or more horizontal saw a good investment? If your main goal is increased accuracy and somewhat faster feed rate a good powerfeed may well do what you want at a reasonable cost. One example: https://www.shopgearinc.com/products/Bandsaw-Power-Feeder-Auto-Resaw-1-2HP-p494913981

[Alex Zeller]

You could look into this one.
https://www.shoppok.com/omaha/a,50,165092,Woodmizer-HR-120-Resaw----7700--Omaha-.htm

[dirk martin]

Have you given much thought to putting a powerfeed on your existing saw? You haven't really indicated what your production requirements are- is a $15k or more horizontal saw a good investment? If your main goal is increased accuracy and somewhat faster feed rate a good powerfeed may well do what you want at a reasonable cost. One example: https://www.shopgearinc.com/products/Bandsaw-Power-Feeder-Auto-Resaw-1-2HP-p494913981

Yes, I have a power feed on my saw now, and it just doesn't do the trick, when we get around 10" of width on the board. Really want to go horizontal....

[dirk martin]

You could look into this one.


Alex, thank you so much !!
I've reached out to the seller....fingers crossed!

[Bradley Gray]

There's a single head resaw on sawmillexchange.com 10hp single phase for $6250.

[John TenEyck]

Yes, I have a power feed on my saw now, and it just doesn't do the trick, when we get around 10" of width on the board. Really want to go horizontal....

No argument that a horizontal saw may be the best way to go, especially with all that HP, but I don't understand why things get wonky for you over 10". Seems as if a tall fence and a matching featherboard in front of your power feeder would keep the work firmly in place all the way up to max. height. I regularly saw veneer over 12" wide w/o issue on my manual feed saw without issue.

John

[Kevin Jenness]

No argument that a horizontal saw may be the best way to go, especially with all that HP, but I don't understand why things get wonky for you over 10". Seems as if a tall fence and a matching featherboard in front of your power feeder would keep the work firmly in place all the way up to max. height. I regularly saw veneer over 12" wide w/o issue on my manual feed saw without issue.

John

I have to agree with John. A self-adjusting pressure roller above the powerfeed would take a bit of invention but might solve your problem with minimal investment if accuracy rather than high production is your main goal. John's clever setup is shown in post #5 here https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?272221-Bandsaw-Resaw-Fence-For-Tall-Stock-Which-Is-Better. Perhaps you could stack an arm and roller on top of your existing powerfeed using its integral pivot and spring. It would be simple to make a few cuts with an improvised tall fence and fixed featherboard to see if that approach would give the accuracy you are looking for.

[dirk martin]

I have to agree with John. A self-adjusting pressure roller above the powerfeed would take a bit of invention but might solve your problem with minimal investment if accuracy rather than high production is your main goal. John's clever setup is shown in post #5 here https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?272221-Bandsaw-Resaw-Fence-For-Tall-Stock-Which-Is-Better. Perhaps you could stack an arm and roller on top of your existing powerfeed using its integral pivot and spring. It would be simple to make a few cuts with an improvised tall fence and fixed featherboard to see if that approach would give the accuracy you are looking for.


i hear what you guys are saying, but indeed, production is more important that perfect accuracy. I've got sanders to handle my accuracy....I need a saw that is effortless to run, and that can product non-stop quantity, that even a child could run (you know what I mean...I'm not running a sweat shop....tho, my wife often says otherwise).

[dirk martin]

There's a single head resaw on sawmillexchange.com 10hp single phase for $6250.

I can't seem to find that, Bradley. Got a link?

Nevermind...found it....looks narrow. I'll call them....

[andrew whicker]

it would be interesting to call the power company and ask how much it costs to have 3 phase delivered. Would at least give you a number.

[dirk martin]

it would be interesting to call the power company and ask how much it costs to have 3 phase delivered. Would at least give you a number.

I did, and they told me that the nearest 3 phase power source to me, was about 2 miles away, and to run that to my shop would cost roughly $30K.

[dirk martin]

I'm still striking out on finding a single phase horizontal resaw, so if anyone sees one online, or locally, please let me know. You guys have given me a couple good leads up here lately, but neither seller will get back to me...which usually means sold.

[lou sansone]

I would not rule out 3 phase

I used to have a separate 200 amp 3 phase service for my shop which cost at least 100 per month even if i never turned any machines on. with my 20 hp wide belt, the demand charge was significant
I built a new house and installed a 400 amp single phase service with 2 200 amp mains. one powers my house and one my shop. I use this rotary phase converter for my 20 hp timesavers and it works fine. it is a 30 hp RPC which seems to be fine, although AMERICAN ROTARY now seems to want you to use a 40 hp RPC.

ADX - Smart Phase Converter - American Rotary (https://www.americanrotary.com/products/view/adx-smart-converter/?attribute_model=ADX-40)


lou

[dirk martin]

Have you given much thought to putting a powerfeed on your existing saw? You haven't really indicated what your production requirements are- is a $15k or more horizontal saw a good investment? If your main goal is increased accuracy and somewhat faster feed rate a good powerfeed may well do what you want at a reasonable cost. One example: https://www.shopgearinc.com/products/Bandsaw-Power-Feeder-Auto-Resaw-1-2HP-p494913981

Yes, I'm going horizontal. Maybe I'll start another thread on all the reasons I prefer horizontal over vertical.

[dirk martin]

At $5-$6K for an RPC, plus $100 a month when not even in use?......I think that's money I can instead put into an HR120....if I can find one.... Thanks for the info, tho, Lou.

-dirk

[lou sansone]

Couple corrections
I actually do have a 40 hp rotary phase converter that is now in my new shop using a 200 amp single phase service

as I said I have a 400 amp service coming in to my property. I split it two ways at the meter socket- 200 A to my house 200 A to my shop and there is no demand charge anymore so it’s just the rotary phase converter and that’s it

I get just a normal residential electric bill. There wasn’t an option to have three phase to my new shop and all my machines are through three phase machines so I had to do something.

lou

[dirk martin]

Say....
Anyone have a clue as to what size RPC that Grizzly may sell, it would take to run this bad boy?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/234671604954

And, when using an RPC, does that mean I don't need to really change anything related to power, that's coming into my shop?

[Kevin Jenness]

I'm curious, what are you doing with all this resawn material?

[lou sansone]

https://www.americanrotary.com/pdfviewer/?pdf=5285

reading through the literature, for a 30hp motor you would need a ADX 60 RPC. That would require a 175 amp single phase breaker