Talk me out of this sliding tablesaw

[Jonathan Jung]

I have the opportunity of getting this saw, for let's say very cheaply. Rockwell / SCM L'vincible 15" blade. Large machine. It runs and cuts, but it's older and in a well-used shop. I could use a slider, I really could. But I don't want a problem machine and I really don't have much space left in my shop as it is...would have to do some serious reconfiguring, maybe get rid of an assembly table.

501421

looks just like this one

https://www.macchine-legno.com/files/styles/originale/public/imall/scm_si_15_wf_439_1._sega_circolare_scm_si_15_wf.jp g?itok=Ib-00rcS

[Richard Coers]

Biggest issue is likely the bearing system that the slider runs on, or the rails that the bearings ride on. How old is that saw, 20-30 years old?

[Atlas Ramirez]

THink twice before buying this. You should not regret

[Phillip Mitchell]

I have the short stroke version of this saw (SI-15F) and I really like it for what it is. My shop cannot fit a full stroke slider so I don’t even entertain that as an option and feel grateful that I get to work on even a “1/2” stroke machine.

The machine in the first photo looks older than mine, which has mustard yellow paint. The green ones are likely from late 70s or *maybe* very beginning of the 80s based on my past research. This could be incorrect.

My saw has a fully cast iron sliding table and auxiliary outrigger/cross cut support and the sliding section is 7.5” to the left of the blade with a traditional type zero clearance insert. This one looks to be an aluminum (?) slider that is just left of the blade, which is more modern and generally more
convenient for clamping and cutting shorter parts accurately and easily. It might complicate the dado process, not sure on that one, but on my saw it is very simple and quick to change to dado by swapping out the insert and everything fits on the arbor like a cabinet saw.

The sliding table and its carriage / infrastructure below should be checked thoroughly for wear and play/slop both side to side and vertically. I cannot tell if the sliding table bearing system is the same as what’s on mine, but I have side to side slop at either extreme of my sliding table stroke that seems to be endemic to the design of the sliding system. At the extreme, It looses contact with enough bearings underneath to keep it totally play-free and can move left to right maybe 1/32-1/16” total (?)

I use a track saw initially anyways and work this limitation into my work flow with an already short stroke saw, but if I had a full stroke saw then I would be likely expecting to use it to its fullest stroke potential and this may be an issue. Just check it out in person and see if you can induce side to side play within the limits of the stroke you plan on using. It may be a non issue, but really one of those things you have to assess in person.

Does it have a crosscut fence, flip stops, all rip fence components present? The are well built analog saws, although somewhat crude compared to newer sliders 5-10x more expensive. Mine cuts extremely well and accurately and has loads of power and 4 1/2” depth of cut. Simple as it gets, which I like for my shop, but everyone is different.

I use a pair of the 6” Kreg automaxx Clamps with t slot nut hardware that fits in the sliding table slots for clamping / hold downs and it works very well for not much $. Probably better and certainly more flexible than the single oem miter gauge type hold down.

Maybe this helps. Im happy to answer more questions if you have any. I am not an old SCMI expert but I have or have had enough of the 70s-80s era ones to have to put in some time researching, etc and they are generally very nice machines for the $$ unless they have been abused or are missing loads of parts.

What is the asking price of the saw?

[Phillip Mitchell]

Looking closer at the photos again, I see it is badged Rockwell (which mine is also.) This happened in the 80s, according to my research, so I would date it to that era. They must have continued to use the old green paint on some machines of that era. Looks like most, if not all of the sliding table accessories are there. I would check the table for play and if acceptable to you then go for it. Not much to go wrong with these if the sliding table isn’t thrashed.

[Keegan Shields]

Two questions:

1. How will this purchase make you more money? Is there some bottle neck that this saw speeds up? Remember that the cost of the saw doesn’t stop when you pick it up, but also the time to transport, setup, troubleshoot, dust collection, accessories, etc.

2. What’s the opportunity cost? In other words, what else could you do with the time and money you would invest in the saw? Could you complete an additional job instead? Up-level your skills by attending a formal class? Display your work at a public event to expand your client base? Would saving toward a modern saw with a warranty be a better option?

Looks like a great saw, but perhaps there are (less fun) areas of your business where the money/time are better spent.

[Michael Burnside]

If you're a hobbyist, this seems like more trouble than it's worth IMHO. If you're a professional, how will this help your business? Keegan makes a very good set of points you should work through.

[Warren Lake]

SCM stuff I have in that colour are from the 60's. Often you can date from the serial tag if you know how they did it

[J.R. Rutter]

Hey Jonathan, I've picked up big items like this on a whim because they were cheap or free. But ultimately, for me at least, they turned into time wasted on rehabbing or storing them before ultimately realizing that they either were not the solution I was hoping for or because they were just too worn or outdated to be truly useful. Given the floor space required for a slider, I would want to be confident that it would cut as reliably and accurately as a newer machine with fewer miles on it.

[Bill Dufour]

How much trouble is it to replace the tubular rails and runners on a slider? Do people scrape them back to shape like metal lathes bedways?
BilL D

[Jacques Gagnon]

Jonathan,

A few words to let you know that somebody has posted a Felder K975 for sale on the FOG site. It is a 3 phase model built in 2004. The machine is south of San Francisco; not next door for you but better than on the East Coast ��.

Regards,

Jacques

[Warren Lake]

I was once told that replacing phenolic ways on an old altendorf would be over 4k. had a german tool and die maker friend that would have figured it and done it cheaper. He was a really good problem solver inventor type. Those guys are more rare than ever if even still around.

[Kevin Jenness]

I would agree with everything Philip Mitchell said. Check it out in person and if the carriage is not thrashed, the extension table doesn't sag, the main table is flat, the arbor runs true and quiet, the wiring looks ok, it cuts a straight line without deviation, the fences are solid and easily adjustable, all the essential parts are there and the price is right, go for it. Base your decision on condition, not age. If it needs significant work, pass it by. Those old SCMIs are pretty simple and rugged machines and a full size slider will make your work easier and more accurate. If you have room, maybe tucked into the back right corner of the slider, keep your cabinet saw for dados, general ripping and odd jobs.

[Tom Bussey]

You are correct about us Tool and Die Makers being rare. I dropped off an application for part time work at a CNC machine shop. I got a call within 2 hours for an interview the same day. I was asked how many hours I wanted to work and I said Monday, Wednesday and Friday 7- noon and was hired on the spot. I am in the tool room and have all manual machines. I rarely see a blueprint usually it is a shecht of what is needed, I would say problem solver and inventor is about correct. The Ratio used to be 1 Tool Maker to 1,000 production workers but I am sure that gap has widened. I was 74 at the time, now I am 77 and still working. And I can use their machines any time I want, to build what ever I want, when I am not on the clock. hench making a router table out of an old shaper table which I posted pictures of, on this forum.

You are right most people don't have any idea that we even exist.

[Dave Sabo]

Biggest issue is likely the bearing system that the slider runs on, or the rails that the bearings ride on. How old is that saw, 20-30 years old?

more like 40+………….Rockwell’s Tool div. was sold off in the very early 80’s.

[Erik Loza]

IMHO, the question to ask yourself is, “Do I want a sliding panel saw or do I want a project?” In all my years of selling sliders, I never saw an actual business be successful with a “project”. It invariably ended up becoming a very heavy and expensive assembly table. Maybe there are folks who were able to make some vintage machine work for their business needs but imagine needing a reliable work truck, buying something made in the 80’s, then trying to maintain/get parts for it while simultaneously visiting jobsites, hauling material, etc. Folks should do whatever they want but what is your time worth? Just my 2-cents.

Erik

[Phillip Mitchell]

Have you even looked at the saw and assessed the condition of the sliding table, etc? It is foolish to assume either extreme (that it’s a project or that it’s good to go as is) without an actual
assessment.

It could cut perfectly accurately like my 1980’s version of this saw (except in the last couple inches of either extreme of the table stroke) that I have had to do basically nothing to over the last few years since acquiring and putting into use.

Or it could be a basket case and not be worth even getting for free if you had to do the moving.

There is not much to go wrong with these saws if it is already cutting accurately and you don’t have to track down critical missing parts / components.

Is it local to you enough to have minimal time involved in an assessment of condition?

[Jonathan Jung]

IMHO, the question to ask yourself is, “Do I want a sliding panel saw or do I want a project?” In all my years of selling sliders, I never saw an actual business be successful with a “project”. It invariably ended up becoming a very heavy and expensive assembly table. Maybe there are folks who were able to make some vintage machine work for their business needs but imagine needing a reliable work truck, buying something made in the 80’s, then trying to maintain/get parts for it while simultaneously visiting jobsites, hauling material, etc. Folks should do whatever they want but what is your time worth? Just my 2-cents.

Erik

You're right there, and the immediate answer is that I want a slider, not a project.

The projects I enjoy are those that are the items that I have space for and no immediate need. Thanks for the reminder.

On that note I've made my 1942 16" Oliver work for my business, but I had another jointer to use while I waited 18mo for it to be ready to use. And a ~1940 Walker Turner drill press and a 1952 Walker Turner drill press - I already had 2 other drill presses so my business didn't depend on them and they didn't take up much space. Oh and a 1990 SCMI WBS massive project, but I had a big drum sander that got me by while the WBS was getting worked on.

[Jonathan Jung]

All the input is very appreciated. It seems wise to pass, considering my business needs and income come first. If I had an extra several hundred sq ft to store it, and it were a more collectible piece like a Martin, it could be a good weekend project.

[Jonathan Jung]

Hey Jonathan, I've picked up big items like this on a whim because they were cheap or free. But ultimately, for me at least, they turned into time wasted on rehabbing or storing them before ultimately realizing that they either were not the solution I was hoping for or because they were just too worn or outdated to be truly useful. Given the floor space required for a slider, I would want to be confident that it would cut as reliably and accurately as a newer machine with fewer miles on it.

You're right there, thanks for the nudge back to reality. After several days of work into a project machine, and it would be cheaper to simply get a much newer machine.

[Jonathan Jung]

I would agree with everything Philip Mitchell said. Check it out in person and if the carriage is not thrashed, the extension table doesn't sag, the main table is flat, the arbor runs true and quiet, the wiring looks ok, it cuts a straight line without deviation, the fences are solid and easily adjustable, all the essential parts are there and the price is right, go for it. Base your decision on condition, not age. If it needs significant work, pass it by. Those old SCMIs are pretty simple and rugged machines and a full size slider will make your work easier and more accurate. If you have room, maybe tucked into the back right corner of the slider, keep your cabinet saw for dados, general ripping and odd jobs.

I saw it in person, and met the shop foreman, and noted that he was very rough on it, cutting down a pallet, constantly jamming it up. The saw worked but you're right, after thinking about it, the condition wasn't the best, either the saw or the shop in general.

[Kevin Jenness]

I agree with Erik, you don't want a project. On the other hand, an old slider doesn't have to be a project. It depends on the condition of the unit.

I worked in a shop with a short stroke slider and a cabinet saw, and a limited appetite for capital investment at the time. When an older Griggio SC3000, same vintage as the saw you are looking at, became available, we bought it for $2k and shoehorned it in place. It performed without incident for several years until it was upgraded to an early 80's Martin T71. They replaced that saw with a new T60C a few years back when they could afford it, but I'm confident that the T71 is still at work in somebody's shop and making money for them- probably true for the Griggio as well.

Sure, you are taking a risk with an old machine, but that's factored into the price and can be minimized with a thorough inspection. What parts are you likely to need besides belts and bearings? That new T60C will probably need a new electronic board before the old saws wear out their carriage guides. Keep your cabinet saw as a backup and you will have some coverage in case of a problem with the slider.

There have been a couple of threads in the recent past covering small shop owners in a similar situation to yours. Both wound up with new units, Felders I believe. If you have cash in hand or the prospect of work ahead sufficient to finance a new saw that may well be your best bet. On the other hand, a decent condition used saw may work well for you and keep you out of debt, which is where I like to be.

In any case, if you really need a sliding table saw, you are already paying for it by working less efficiently. I will say that having worked with cabinet saws, aftermarket sliding table attachments, a short stroke saw, track saw and now a full size slider, there's no way I would go backwards. Good luck with whatever you choose.

[Joe Calhoon]

I bought a brand new SI 15 WF same green color as your picture in 1978. It was not a terrible saw but hard to keep square. I ended up selling it and buying a 15 year old Martin T75. SCM went to the tan color about a year later so I would guess the vintage of that one early to mid 70s.
Would agree that one looks pretty beat.

The salesmen will always tell you to buy new but I had good luck in the early days of my business buying used industrial machines. Didn’t start replacing with new till the 2000s and that was mostly to take advantage of section 179.

I have totally restored a few vintage machines and agree that is not a good business move. More of a hobby for me. I also have a few vintage machines in service I have not touched and they still preform well and better built than anything new.

[Richard Coers]

You're right there, and the immediate answer is that I want a slider, not a project.

The projects I enjoy are those that are the items that I have space for and no immediate need. Thanks for the reminder.

On that note I've made my 1942 16" Oliver work for my business, but I had another jointer to use while I waited 18mo for it to be ready to use. And a ~1940 Walker Turner drill press and a 1952 Walker Turner drill press - I already had 2 other drill presses so my business didn't depend on them and they didn't take up much space. Oh and a 1990 SCMI WBS massive project, but I had a big drum sander that got me by while the WBS was getting worked on.
Sounds like we didn't talk you out of it. Enjoy the project!