Sorry Water Heater

[Bruce Wrenn]

Today did some work on gas lines, which meant WH had to be lit again. Noticed some heavy flaking off on bottom of tank, which tells me it's time for a new heater while I can replace it on my schedule. Current heater is a 6 year model from Lowes, which was installed in 1998. This means it has provided dependable hot water for the last 25 years. Not bad for a 6 year rated WH. Hope the next one lasts that long, which I won't. New one costs about twice what we paid for old one.

[Mike Henderson]

Put in a tankless. You'll appreciate it.

Mike

[Thomas McCurnin]

+1 on Tankless. Mine is 20 years old, and while it has a pre-filter and is back-flushed every couple years performs perfectly.

[Jerome Stanek]

I won't have a tankless as the water has to travel to far from the heater before you get hot water at the tap. I have a circulating system.

[Jim Becker]

I won't have a tankless as the water has to travel to far from the heater before you get hot water at the tap. I have a circulating system.

I can appreciate that. At our old property, we had two...one for the original house and one for the large addition. That solved the distance issue. But to your point, folks that already have a recirculating system are not the best candidates for a tankless system. But for a home that has NG and doesn't have distance issues, they are very efficient and have essentially "endless" hot water.

[Jack Frederick]

I represented Rinnai for 30 years. When replacing a water heater it is best to try to improve on the decisions of the original low cost bidder. the architect, builder and plumber placed little care on the location of a water heater as it pertains to your comfort, efficiency and water conservation which is a big deal here in the West. There is the furnace. There is the water heater. End of discussion. With the flow rates of new faucets/showers pretty heavily restricted and the pipe sizes used you can turn on the shower, go make coffee and maybe have hot water when you get back. First step is to get a complete water test done to see what you are dealing with. If you are in town the water board will send you the test results. I’m a fan of tankless and have had them for probably 25 yrs. Imo, the only brands to buy are Rinnai and Navien. With incentives the heat pump WH’s are worth a look in todays world. A dedicated recirc line is a plus if you need it. Tankless units with a built in circ are an excellent option if you need recirc. Anyway, take a whole house look at the situation when you do replace.

[Lawrence Duckworth]

Today did some work on gas lines, which meant WH had to be lit again. Noticed some heavy flaking off on bottom of tank, which tells me it's time for a new heater while I can replace it on my schedule. Current heater is a 6 year model from Lowes, which was installed in 1998. This means it has provided dependable hot water for the last 25 years. Not bad for a 6 year rated WH. Hope the next one lasts that long, which I won't. New one costs about twice what we paid for old one.


That's great that your old water heater lasted for 25 years! That's much longer than the average lifespan of a water heater. It sounds like you got your money's worth out of it.
It's definitely a good idea to replace your water heater before it fails. If it leaks, it can cause a lot of damage to your home. It's also a good idea to replace your water heater if it's not energy efficient. Newer water heaters are much more efficient than older models, so you can save money on your energy bills.

... new water heater costs twice as much as the old ones. But it's important to remember that you're getting a new product with a longer lifespan. And, as you said, you won't have to replace it for another 25 years.
Here are a few things to keep in mind when choosing a new water heater:
* The size of your water heater should be based on the number of people in your household and your hot water usage.
* You can choose between gas or electric water heaters. Gas water heaters are more efficient, but they can be more expensive to install. Electric water heaters are less expensive to install, but they're not as efficient.
* You can also choose between tankless and tank water heaters. Tankless water heaters are more efficient, but they're also more expensive to install. :)

[Cameron Wood]

Demand water heaters have their issues:

- Higher initial cost, double or more than standard WH.
- Higher installation cost, for both new installation and replacing a tank WH. Larger gas supply pipe, different vent.
- Need electricity to work- no hot water when the power is out.
- Don't work well at low flow rate.
- Need to be de-scaled at regular intervals- a plumber service call. Lack of service can lead to failure of heat exchanger & expensive repair possibly approaching the cost of the whole unit.
- Slightly longer time to get hot water at the tap as water flow triggers the unit to fire up.
- Possibly noisy.

IMO, a tankless WH is a good candidate when space is limited, in accessory dwellings with low use, and new installations with high demand. Replacing an existing tank with tankless would make sense maybe if you had a bunch of teenagers and ran out of hot water regularly but will always cost more in both short and long run.

[Alex Zeller]

If you want to get long life out of a water heater mark the date you installed it and every 5 years replace the sacrificial anode. Most people ignore them and once they get used up the tank walls get attacked. They say 3 to 5 years and depending on your water you may need to do it more often. I can go more than 10 years before having to do it but for the price 5 years is just cheap insurance.

[Mike Henderson]

De-scaling should not be a plumber call. I run vinegar through mine, which is what the manufacturer recommends. Takes about an hour once a year (and you don't have to stand next to it for that hour).

Also, mine fires up immediately so I never noticed any additional lag for hot water.

They are more expensive, both to purchase and to install, but they're cheaper to run. My gas bill went down after I installed a tankless. The reason is that you don't have to keep a large amount of water hot all the time, usually even overnight when everyone is asleep.

On the plus side, you never run out of hot water. Everyone I know who has installed a tankless says they'd never go back to a tank water heater.

Mike

[Jim Koepke]

The reason is that you don't have to keep a large amount of water hot all the time, usually even overnight when everyone is asleep.

On the plus side, you never run out of hot water. Everyone I know who has installed a tankless says they'd never go back to a tank water heater.

You don't have to keep the water warm while you are out of the house for the day working or whatever.

A friend of mine who loves his tankless water heater solved the low flow problem by having a small water heater (5 or 10 gallon) in the system.

He also installed a circulating system so he could press a button and have the circulating pump run for ~30 seconds to bring hot water to the furthest taps.

jtk

[Jim Becker]

Demand water heaters have their issues:

- Higher initial cost, double or more than standard WH.

If you have not priced the higher quality "standard" tank type water heaters recently, you're going to be shocked...the cost delta between them and condensing tankless (PVC venting) is a lot closer than it used to be.

[Bruce Wrenn]

Couple of items. First, I'm reinstalling a propane gas powered WH. Second, doesn't need electricity to run. Always a pleasure to have hot water during power outages. During hurricane Fran (1996) and an ice storm couple years later, neighbors took turns coming over and getting hot showers. Third, with a 40 gallon WH, we have NEVER run out of hot water, no matter how many are in the house. As for heat loss during storage, with my old (fiberglass insulated) WH, when we go out of town for several days, turn it back to just pilot. When we return and turn it back on, never has it come on due to heat loss. Only comes on when wife starts laundry. Longest run (except addition) is less than 20 feet from WH. Only problem I'm having now is Lowes dumb web site. Type in PROPANE, and they show me natural gas WHs. This means a trip to store to find out which stores stock propane water heaters. Due to availability of NG, most don't stock propane water heaters.

[Allan Dozier]

We just had to replumb our house so while at it I had the water heater replaced too. We have had the tankless natural gas for quite a few years and I never fully liked it. It took a lot longer to get hot water at the faucet over the old tank heater. An unusual aspect was that when the water finally got hot it stayed hot for several minutes then often would be cold for about a minute. But after that the good thing was it was then hot for as long as you wanted. I replaced it with a 40 gallon tank natural gas heater and am much happier. We get hot water at the faucet much much faster now. I don't think I will ever try a tankless again.

[Cameron Wood]

If you have not priced the higher quality "standard" tank type water heaters recently, you're going to be shocked...the cost delta between them and condensing tankless (PVC venting) is a lot closer than it used to be.


Yes, that's true, but there is still some added cost for tankless manifold, & maybe SS vent piping. I haven't seen condensing units- that sounds very efficient.

California is headed toward eliminating gas appliances, so maybe this will all be moot in a number of years.

[Thomas McCurnin]

De-Scaler Filters are available for about $250 and do a pretty decent job of removing the impurities which cause mineral buildup. While they are generally recommended for tankless water heaters, I would have to think they would work equally well for traditional tank water heaters.

[Rollie Meyers]

Is the OP's WH a Whirlpool? They have a horrible reputation & Lowe's persisted in selling them for years, and removing it would be a good idea, last year replaced my 40 YO State WH, had a lot of lime scale & had a spare for it, my gas bill dropped by about $7 bucks a month, it did not leak but decided to replace it on my terms.

[Scott Winners]

I have two daughters and a wife, all three with long hair. My desire to have "endless" hot water is zilch.

[Stan Calow]

I have two daughters and a wife, all three with long hair. My desire to have "endless" hot water is zilch.

That was a friend's experience. Wife and two teens. He thought the tankless would cut their water and gas bills, but found it went up. They were all taking much longer showers because they could.

[Alan Lightstone]

I have two daughters and a wife, all three with long hair. My desire to have "endless" hot water is zilch.
Will Lowe's exchange an old tank WH and two daughters for two sons and a tankless WH?

We removed two large tank WHs in our house during its renovation for a single tankless propane WH. Long runs so there is a definite delay with water wastage, but I can only assume the propane bills have gone down substantially compared to two units.

[Jerry Bruette]

We put in a 30 gallon indirect fired water heater when we built our house. In 35 years the only thing I've done is adjust the temperature, and we have endless hot water.

[Zachary Hoyt]

I put in an electric tankless water heater. It's no more than 12 feet of pipe distance from anything except the washing machine, which is maybe 18-20 feet. Using 1/2" pex pipe it doesn't take too long to get places. No natural gas here and I don't want propane. I figured since I had to replace everything I would go all electric.

[George Yetka]

OP all the tanked water heaters are the same 5 year, 7 year, 10 year, etc. You are just buying longer warranties they come off the same line. That being said 25 years is great. You probably have good water.

I wouldnt have installed a tankless 10 years ago but today I would. They have become more reliable with lower gas needs. Originally you had to pipe 1-1/4" gas lines to them, now 3/4 is ok. You will have to plumb pvc/cpvc to the outside unless you had a direct vent tanked heater before. Not a huge deal just more work. 5 years ago a 40 gallon gas atmospheric vent heater was $400 so it was a no brainer to not spend 2k plus more install on a tankless. Now with that same tanked heater being closer to 1,000 and the tanklesses being more reliable and cheaper than they used to be it becomes a harder choice. If you are doing it on your own. figure on a day or 2 for install of tankless or 1-2 hours on the tank. Profesional will do tank in 30 minutes or less than 1 day on tankless.

[Bill George]

Our bill for heating water with Nat Gas is $20 per month. Why a tankless? They are $1000 more that an a tank type and need to have a major upgrade in the gas line to save what $$? They run at much higher temperatures meaning more Lime deposits. No thanks.

[Brian Elfert]

I have a power vented tank water heater so it needs power to run. My house originally had no natural gas so there is no traditional flue. I need the power vented water heater because I have PVC venting out the wall.

[Bruce Wrenn]

OP all the tanked water heaters are the same 5 year, 7 year, 10 year, etc. You are just buying longer warranties they come off the same line. That being said 25 years is great. You probably have good water.

Better grades of WH contain either larger, or two anodes. First WH in house was a big bucks State brand. Gas valve failed at 18 years. New valve was more than cheappie WH from Lowes, which lasted 25 years. The problem is bottom of tank where burner is is flaking off, which means a rupture not to far into the future. Anodes don't protect that area, as it's outside the actual tank. Picked up replacement tonight, and will install on Thursday. Because WH is on second floor, it will involve some physical labor to remove and install

[George Yetka]

Better grades of WH contain either larger, or two anodes. First WH in house was a big bucks State brand. Gas valve failed at 18 years. New valve was more than cheappie WH from Lowes, which lasted 25 years. The problem is bottom of tank where burner is is flaking off, which means a rupture not to far into the future. Anodes don't protect that area, as it's outside the actual tank. Picked up replacement tonight, and will install on Thursday. Because WH is on second floor, it will involve some physical labor to remove and install

Same as in the 3 they keep next to each other that look identical but have 3 different warranties. There is definately different grades. My water is very high in iron and has a sulfates and I have a significant treatment system but I still get stuff in the tank. So I bought a high end AOsmith with electronic Anode. The heater that was in when i moved in was 6 years old and I pulled the anode. It was completely gone.

A good trick for getting the old one out is draining it. It should make it quite a bit lighter :rolleyes:. A real trick is using a pump to drain it so you dont have to wait hours. The tanks will usually have scale and other solids that clog that bottom valve unless you drained yearly.Also once you get the firs 6" out open up that relief valve.

[Jack Frederick]

Cameron made a comment about tankless having problems at low flow rates. George about having to run tankless at higher temps. Look at your use temps with hot water. Shower valves are maxed by code at 110-112*. Sitting in a tub over 105 and youy are no longer bathing, but par-boiling. Tankless come set for 120* typically but can be adjusted up or down on their controls. I leave mine at 120 for most of the year. Summer I’ll drop it to 115*. Winter in the Northeast I might go to 125*. I know Rinnai’s so I will use their specs. The units will fire at .4gpm of flow. Minimum flow rate is either 10 or 15kbtu depending upon model. All will hold operation down too .4gpm. Consider how you operate with a tank water heat. In order to get more hot water you turn the unit up. I’ve trained thousands of plumber on tankless and have gotten many calls where the plumber turned up the temp because the customer wanted it at 140* and the tankless would not fire or would cycle on minimum flow. It is counter intuitive on water heating but the correct way on tankless is to turn the temp down. To high a setting means the unit falls below the minimum firing rate at high set point temps. Youy hav e to have a high enough flow to stuff the 15kbtu into that amount of water. GPMxDelta Tx500=btu is the rule here. You can push the numbers around.
Todays tankless are very reliable. The one caveat to that is they must be installed properly. That seems to be asking a lot. Our new home has a new Navien unit in it. There are obvious errors in the installation. I called the company that installed it and asked when he would like to come out and repair the install. He didn’t take it well. I fixed it myself.

[Brian Elfert]

Same as in the 3 they keep next to each other that look identical but have 3 different warranties. There is definately different grades. My water is very high in iron and has a sulfates and I have a significant treatment system but I still get stuff in the tank. So I bought a high end AOsmith with electronic Anode. The heater that was in when i moved in was 6 years old and I pulled the anode. It was completely gone.


Is that what is considered a powered anode? You can get powered anodes to put in just about water heater. My concern would be the electricity used even though not a whole lot.

[Jim Koepke]

I have two daughters and a wife, all three with long hair. My desire to have "endless" hot water is zilch.


That was a friend's experience. Wife and two teens. He thought the tankless would cut their water and gas bills, but found it went up. They were all taking much longer showers because they could.

My father didn't like my brothers and I taking too long in the shower. After what he felt was long enough he would close the valve to the water heater causing the shower to go cold. I guess he felt that was needed in a house with 4 teenagers.

jtk

[Bill George]

Tankless run the burner at a much higher rate and temperature to keep up with the load. Higher burner temp equals more lime deposits. My existing 40 gal runs on a 1/2 inch line the tankless would take a 1 inch or larger. The end result is the same temperature water anyway. Our Nat gas bill for heating water is $20 per month, no payback on tankless here!

George about having to run tankless at higher temps.

[Jack Frederick]

Well, Bill, you have an infinitely modulating negative pressure gas valve. It being negative pressure the gas actually is mixed ahead of the burner based upon the speed of the inducer fan. It is precisely controlled and delivers very close to the set point temperature. As flow fluctuates in use there is a flow control at the outlet to ensure nothing leaves in excess of the 2* from set point and if necessary it will add cold water to the hot, but you do not see gross over temp on these units. I introduced the Rinnai’s in a 6 state area in 2000 and have never had the type of operation you describe and I was responsible for a close to 300,000 of them. The older tankless like the Aquastar, etc had no modulation or precise temp control and they were, as you describe all over the place temp wise with very little or no gas control. What kills a tankless is poor water quality. It is why the manuf lists in the front of their install manual the acceptable limits to chemical composition of the water supply. If you install them in poor water areas you have to treat to the situation. There are some areas where I told my customers to not install them. Waitsfield, VT pumps liquified granite out of the ground. I have seen them seize up an untreated tankless in 6 mo. On the other hand, I ran a tankless in my home from ‘98-‘11 and never touched it. This was intentional on my part. As it was a prototype, prior to selling the house I pulled it and put in a listed replacement. I took my sawzall and cut it in half and it was as clean as a whistle. Net/net, know what kind of water you have. Respectfully, George, you may have your tanks. I’m a tankless guy;)