Rockler Hollow Mortice Chisel Revue

[Jim Koepke]

In an earlier thread > https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?303041 < Greg Parrish was asking about 90º corner chisels and ended up purchasing a Timberline hollow mortise chisel.

My search turned up a set of three at Rockler, in 1/4", 3/8" & 1/2" sizes.

The handles were an extra $10 each > https://www.rockler.com/mortise-chisel-insert

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The handle is held on by a set screw that is driven into place with a 1//8" Allen key.

The box has a statement that these are not for machine use.

A piece of scrap was marked out for a mortice and first drilled using a 3/8" auger bit. The auger was given 17 turns to create a 1" deep mortise. The chisel was then used to clear the waste:

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It surprised me at how well it removed the waste:

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Of course some of the waste was jammed into the chisel. It was easy to remove the handle and push the waste out from the handle end with a long Phillips Screwdriver. This was done at the end of the waste removal.

In the past drilling and then chiseling a mortise didn't seem to save any time over just going at it with a pigsticker. This actually seemed to go rather quickly and saved time.

jtk

[Eric Brown]

For the price they look pretty good. I have a mortise machine but there are times when this would work better. All I need is the handle for my existing bits. Mostly I use a 5/16" which isn't available in this group. I also found the premium ones from Lee Valley to be worth the extra.

[Derek Cohen]

To link in with Jim's information, here is the post I made in that other thread:

Hollow mortice chisel (minus the auger bit) squaring up mortices made with a Domino (one could also use a router here) ...

https://i.postimg.cc/2r0g17x0/28.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

The aim was mortices for the slats in a bedhead ...

https://i.postimg.cc/Mz44DZNR/29.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/0xZQVFBG/6.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/4NDZh6NP/4.jpg

Now, if you chose to just use a drill - twist or auger bits - and then square up with the hollow mortice chisel, then you could also guide it with this fixture. This has an adjustable fence (which also acts as a hold down) ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/MorticingGuide_html_m1cd6b9df.jpg

Drill out the waste, then run the chisel along the fence ...

http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/MorticingGuide_html_37f5fddb.jpg

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

For the price they look pretty good. I have a mortise machine but there are times when this would work better. All I need is the handle for my existing bits. Mostly I use a 5/16" which isn't available in this group. I also found the premium ones from Lee Valley to be worth the extra.

Eric, I will try to remember to measure the diameter of the handle/top of chisel today so you can determine if these handles will fit your need.

jtk

[Derek Cohen]

For the price they look pretty good. I have a mortise machine but there are times when this would work better. All I need is the handle for my existing bits. Mostly I use a 5/16" which isn't available in this group. I also found the premium ones from Lee Valley to be worth the extra.

Eric, for what it is worth, mine are metric - 6mm, 8mm, and 10mm - since they are used with a Domino morticing machine.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

… Mostly I use a 5/16" which isn't available in this group. I also found the premium ones from Lee Valley to be worth the extra.


Eric, for what it is worth, mine are metric - 6mm, 8mm, and 10mm …

Regards from Perth

Derek

Just for general information 5/16 and 8mm are pretty much interchangeable.

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As they say, "close enough for jazz."

For automotive and other tools they are close enough to use wrenches interchaneably on all the 5/inch sizes.

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32 mm is about as large as you get on automotive work. The castle nut on the old VW micro busses were 32mm. Everyone I knew here in the States would use a 1-1/4" socket or wrench becasue they were easier to find back in the day.

jtk

[Stephen Rosenthal]

32 mm is about as large as you get on automotive work. The castle nut on the old VW micro busses were 32mm. Everyone I knew here in the States would use a 1-1/4" socket or wrench becasue they were easier to find back in the day.

jtk

Don’t want to hijack this thread, but changing the oil in my car requires a 36mm socket to unscrew the oil filter cap. No imperial equivalent. Correct torque is necessary when replacing the cap, so the exact socket size is essential. The only place that had them in stock was Auto Zone. I think I paid about $8.00.

[Jim Koepke]

Don’t want to hijack this thread, but changing the oil in my car requires a 36mm socket to unscrew the oil filter cap.

No worries on the hijacking. Especially since my posting inch to mm equivalents might also be considered a bit of a hijack.

Others may learn good information from our side steps.

Too bad they didn't go for 38mm instead. Then an inch and a half socket would have worked. Though a lot of engineers in parts of the world using metric a not likely to be as concerned about interchanging SAE tooling with metric tooling.

Oddly in my wanderings more than one 15/32" wrench or socket has been spotted. It must have been hard to find a 12mm wrench at one time.

jtk

[chris carter]

Jim, how well does it work in harder woods like oak? I saw some were complaining that they don't hold up on harder woods. However, assuming these are mostly power tool users, they might not have the deft touch us neanders have.

[Derek Cohen]

Jim here … okay, I’m not Jim .. :)

My original post was wacking these into Jarrah, which is somewhat harder than Oak (most types). No sharpening needed throughout the above project.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jason Buresh]

Jim here … okay, I’m not Jim .. :)

My original post was wacking these into Jarrah, which is somewhat harder than Oak (most types). No sharpening needed throughout the above project.

Regards from Perth

Derek

May I ask how you sharpen these? Do you just work the outside faces on a stone?

[Dave Zellers]

May I ask how you sharpen these? Do you just work the outside faces on a stone?

You have struck on exactly why these are being touted. You sharpen them with a cone shaped zircron encrusted (sorry, I can't escape my past) thing-a-ma-bob you chuck into your drill. It sharpens it from the inside and then you hone off the burr on the outside.
Meaning there is never any change to the outside diameter.
Beautiful simplicity.

[Derek Cohen]

Jason, this is part of the attraction for these chisels. They are super easy to sharpen (especially compared with a corner chisel).

You only hone the inside. Never touch the outside faces. To hone the inside, you use a drill and a two diamond cones, one medium and the other fine. A quick spin and they are done.

https://assets.leevalley.com/Size4/10057/77J8122-large-cone-sharpeners-pr-f-07.jpg

These are from Lee Valley.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jim Koepke]

Jim, how well does it work in harder woods like oak? I saw some were complaining that they don't hold up on harder woods. However, assuming these are mostly power tool users, they might not have the deft touch us neanders have.

So far I have only tried one on some alder.

Eric Brown was wondering about the handles. So the base of one of my chisels was measured at 5/8" (15.875mm).

jtk

[Eric Brown]

Thanks Jim. Thats what I have. I would rather pound on a handle than strike the tool directly. I think the handle would help me keep it square (without using a guide).

[Derek Cohen]

Eric, I have not added handles to mine. I am still experimenting with them. One advantage to not having a handle is that it is easier to clear the inside of the chisel of waste using a rod from above.

The chisels are either steel and/or have a protective durable plastic (UHMW?) layer. I hit the chisels with a UHMW-headed hammer anyway.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Jason Buresh]

Jason, this is part of the attraction for these chisels. They are super easy to sharpen (especially compared with a corner chisel).

You only hone the inside. Never touch the outside faces. To hone the inside, you use a drill and a two diamond cones, one medium and the other fine. A quick spin and they are done.

https://assets.leevalley.com/Size4/10057/77J8122-large-cone-sharpeners-pr-f-07.jpg

These are from Lee Valley.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Wow, really simple. I'm going to have to try these. Thanks!

[Jim Koepke]

One advantage to not having a handle is that it is easier to clear the inside of the chisel of waste using a rod from above.

It came to me that the future has a hole being drilled through the top of these handles to make it so they can be cleared while still in the handle.

jtk

[Edward Weber]

Jason, this is part of the attraction for these chisels. They are super easy to sharpen (especially compared with a corner chisel).

You only hone the inside. Never touch the outside faces. To hone the inside, you use a drill and a two diamond cones, one medium and the other fine. A quick spin and they are done.

These are from Lee Valley.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I'm gonna disagree slightly.
While they are quick and easy to get sharp, thay are no different than any other chisel.
With my mortise chisels, I do hone/polish the outside. Not really removing any material that would change dimensions but rather to get as smooth of a surface as possible, which i also wax.
The inexpensive chisels ($12 for 5/16") do benefit from this more than the Nakahashi ones do ($57 for 5/16") Grizzly prices
You may also need to remove a small burr from the outside after cone sharpening, using a fine hone or abrasive of choice.

[Eric Brown]

I'm gonna disagree slightly.
While they are quick and easy to get sharp, thay are no different than any other chisel.
With my mortise chisels, I do hone/polish the outside. Not really removing any material that would change dimensions but rather to get as smooth of a surface as possible, which i also wax.
The inexpensive chisels ($12 for 5/16") do benefit from this more than the Nakahashi ones do ($57 for 5/16") Grizzly prices
You may also need to remove a small burr from the outside after cone sharpening, using a fine hone or abrasive of choice.

Actually, honing the outside may change the dimensions. They are tapered to provide clearance/relief. So if you hone them flat make sure you are following the taper.

[Edward Weber]

Actually, honing the outside may change the dimensions. They are tapered to provide clearance/relief. So if you hone them flat make sure you are following the taper.

I wrote:
"I do hone/polish the outside. Not really removing any material that would change dimensions but rather to get as smooth of a surface as possible, which i also wax."

If any material IS removed, it would be in the thousandths of an inch range, not enough to make any sort of difference.

Better than the alternative of having the chisel stick in the mortise after ever strike.

JMO, YMMV

[Jason Buresh]

Actually, honing the outside may change the dimensions. They are tapered to provide clearance/relief. So if you hone them flat make sure you are following the taper.

I think I will take Derek's advice and leave the outside alone when I get mine.

Seems to me working the outside could eventually screw up the squareness too.

[Edward Weber]

"Hone the outside faces of the chisel—I begin sharpening by honing the four outside faces of the chisel."
https://www.finewoodworking.com/project-guides/shop-machines/tips-and-advice-for-using-and-troubleshooting-a-hollow-chisel-mortiser

https://www.finewoodworking.com/2014/06/02/how-to-sharpen-hollow-chisel-mortising-bits
2:15 into the video

https://www.woodmagazine.com/workshop/shop-maintenance/how-do-i-sharpen-mortising-chisels

https://thewoodwhisperer.com/videos/mortiser-i-hardly-know-her/
22:45 into the video

"Next, the outside faces must be honed on a perfectly flat waterstone."
https://www.woodreview.com.au/tools-and-equipment/hollow-chisel-mortisers-use-and-maintenance

http://stuswoodworks.com/techniques/2011/10/09/sharpening,-installing,-and-setting-up-a-mortiser/

And many more.
Everyone is free to do what they want, I only post these links for those who don't fully inderstand what this step is done by many and don't simply take my word for it.

[Jason Buresh]

"Hone the outside faces of the chisel—I begin sharpening by honing the four outside faces of the chisel."
https://www.finewoodworking.com/project-guides/shop-machines/tips-and-advice-for-using-and-troubleshooting-a-hollow-chisel-mortiser

https://www.finewoodworking.com/2014/06/02/how-to-sharpen-hollow-chisel-mortising-bits
2:15 into the video

https://www.woodmagazine.com/workshop/shop-maintenance/how-do-i-sharpen-mortising-chisels

https://thewoodwhisperer.com/videos/mortiser-i-hardly-know-her/
22:45 into the video

"Next, the outside faces must be honed on a perfectly flat waterstone."
https://www.woodreview.com.au/tools-and-equipment/hollow-chisel-mortisers-use-and-maintenance

http://stuswoodworks.com/techniques/2011/10/09/sharpening,-installing,-and-setting-up-a-mortiser/

And many more.
Everyone is free to do what they want, I only post these links for those who don't fully inderstand what this step is done by many and don't simply take my word for it.

Edward, thank you for the helpful links. I hope I didn't come across as trying to discredit what you were saying.

As we all know everyone has different techniques, expectations, and equipment for sharpening. I tend to take the less is more approach and do the bare minimum I need to in order to achieve my desired results. I cannot deny Derek is an accomplished woodworker and if he gets results only honing the inside I figured that's good enough for me too.

[Edward Weber]

Edward, thank you for the helpful links. I hope I didn't come across as trying to discredit what you were saying.

As we all know everyone has different techniques, expectations, and equipment for sharpening. I tend to take the less is more approach and do the bare minimum I need to in order to achieve my desired results. I cannot deny Derek is an accomplished woodworker and if he gets results only honing the inside I figured that's good enough for me too.

Not a problem
Just because I think it's a common practice, not everyone does, which is what your post reminded me of.
I often have a habit of answering for those who don't always participate in the discussion and try to answer question they might have. There are also those who only trust "personalities" they consider professionals, not just a random poster on a forum, which I completely understand.
That's why I try to provide links as much as possible.
Just trying to make woodworking life easier for everyone.

[Derek Cohen]

Note in this photo, the inside faces of the chisel are honed by a diamond cone. This takes a minute to do. As with sharpening any blade, the process will create a wire edge (if it did not, you are failing to create a sharpe edge). Remove the wire on a polishing surface, such as green compound on hardwood (which will not dub the edge). This will remove a minimal amount of metal.

https://i.postimg.cc/PHcwmtZW/hcm-09.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Observation: do not purchase a chisel with a rough surface. It should come ready to use bar a light polishing. Note that using a mallet is likely to produce more downforce than a level.

Regards from Perth

Derek