EV battery news

[Rick Potter]

Please do not get political about this. I am simply posting it as news for those interested in EV's.

There has been a geothermal test site in SoCal for years which was also used for testing and it has become quite a big deal.

It is near the town of Ridley CA, which is close to the Salton Sea, which is kind of like the Dead Sea, in that it is super salty from brine and pollutants from agricultural runoff. The well goes deep and used a continuous hot brine to produce electricity.

They have just announced that the brine contains manganese, lithium, silica, cobalt and nickel. About 40% of the brine is useable rare earth metals, and they figure it is the largest brine pool in the known world. Plans are announced to build a large facility partially sponsored by GM to extract the metals for commercial use. This would make the US a major producer of Lithiium. Other large companies are also very interested.

Lots of jobs are anticipated in one of CA's poorest counties, and it will be a clean industry. The factory would remove the metals from the brine and reinsert the remaining water into the ground. This should also hopefully slow down lithium harvesting by slave labor and children in other parts of the world.

Google 'California's Lithium Lake', to get on the trail. It was in my newspaper.

Again...news, not politics.

[Bill Dufour]

Isn't lithium what they give to crazy people? Wonder how the average person living near this desert lake does on social skills.
Bill D

[Frederick Skelly]

Good news Rick. Thanks for posting.

[Steve Eure]

Even though they say its the largest known source, I wonder how long it will take for them to deplete the lake. Although, depleting the pollutants is a good thing, in and of itself. How much is it worth to them for their investment? Will they then pass off the cost to the consumer? Or will our government help to fund this project? And not to make this political, will we as taxpayers pay the burden?

[Kent A Bathurst]

"They have just announced ..........."



Well, I read about it quite a while ago, and the goog shows links going back 18+ months. So the Salton locus is possibly an important cog in a big wheel. Not sure it's breaking news, but that's OK.

Yep, appears there are accessible mineral deposits there. Not yet clear to me that it's a truly clean industry, but I'm hopeful. There is massive lithium production operations from brine evaporation in Chile's Atacama desert, which has been subject to environmental lawsuits for 4+ years. To me, that only means there may be a need for different processing methods. OK. That should be do-able.

There are advances in sourcing rare earth metals in other locations around the world. There are a couple that seem pretty awful in terms of health and safety, but that doesn't condemn an entire industry. The intensity of the focus on the EV industry and renewable power sources will drive advances in technology beyond our current capability to predict, in both supply, processing, and content requirements. Mebbe next week is the lithium-free battery discovery? Fusion guys finally show a viable economic model? Hydrogen/fuel cell guys too?

I'm anxious to see how this plays out.

[Rick Potter]

Well Kent, I guess it just took a while for our news media to discover it. Governor went there last week.

It is NOT the lake water they are using. They drill down thousands of feet to get to the super hot brine. To bad they can't purify the lake. I spent many a weekend there in the late 50's water skiing, and they used to have hydroplane races there in the 30's-60's. Anybody remember 'Miss Bardahl' Google.. hydroplane racing on Salton Sea.

[Bob Borzelleri]

Really? You ask that no one gets political and then you make a politically disparaging reference?

[Fred Perreault]

There is much more to EV batteries than lithium, cobalt and other minerals. There is also many ways to acquire and process lithium. one of the more abundant minerals in the earth. And then there is the advanced research and development into battery recycling processes. As for the Salton Sea, it has been in the geothermal and lithium news for several years now. And it does not ever seem to go very far. Mining and processing permits take years to pass muster. Governor Newsome is merely continuing the environmental efforts and bleeding edge legislation that California has been known for.
Think: CAFE standards for automobiles, or the hula hoop. Lots of things start out west, and go east.

[Scott T Smith]

I cant help but be a pessimist when it comes to any type of new mining activity in the USA. Seems to me that if the Gov regulatory agencies don't do whatever they can to stop it, the NGO "environmental" groups will stop it.

This statement isn't political, it's become a fact that any type of industry that may be considered to be hazardous has a long uphill regulatory and legal climb.

[Bill Dufour]

The modern salton sea was created by a 1905 flood that dumped river water in for two years until they patched up the canals that had collapsed. So no new water since then except for a little desert rain. The salton sea will be dry like Bonnivelle in another decade or so. So no more lithium is being added to the deposits. I believe the bottom is the San Andreas fault.
Bill D

[Kent A Bathurst]

Just clicked on a story in the Washington Post about bauxite mining in Guinea. Bauxite is main source of aluminum, and demand is skyrocketing due to weight reductions in EV. Guinea has world's largest reserves of bauxite, exports grew 5x over 2015 - 2020 to 22% of world volume.

Forecast is an area the size of Delaware will be chewed up for mining in the next 20 years. Plus roads and port facilities. Mines owned by China are the major player, having far outpaced those owned by govt, Alcoa, and Australian Rio Tinto consortium.

Used to be oil and OPEC. Fracking got US back in spot as major player in world oil market. But lithium, cobalt, aluminum.............next-gen resource battles. I bet people in Calif don't get really riled up over fracking in Okla and Penna, and I bet them folks won't get too riled up over lithium brine processing at Salton Sea.

[Ron Selzer]

Anybody remember 'Miss Bardahl' Google.. hydroplane racing


Saw Miss Bardahl run in the Seattle area as a kid, guess I am showing my age

[Malcolm McLeod]

... lithium brine processing ...

Ironically, in many areas the produced water from oil & gas operations contains commercially viable quantities of lithium. With the massive spike in lithium prices*, there will likely be a race to develop recovery methods, including those used at Salton Sea operations. Delaware Basin O&G operations in NM could supply 25% of projected US lithium market.

*-I recall it has come down recently? (don't follow it)

[Kent A Bathurst]

Malcolm - did not know that. Cool. As long as oil and gas are a "thing" :)

Yeah, I think lithium prices have eased lately, but that's like any commodity. Actual shortages drive up prices [see the L-N bronze #3 I just sold]. So do perceived shortages. Then they ease.

[Jim Becker]

Isn't lithium what they give to crazy people? Wonder how the average person living near this desert lake does on social skills.
Bill D
Lithium is used for a wide variety of mental health issues as this essential metal is often deficient when certain diagnoses present. As an aside...be nice. Folks with these afflictions do not choose to have them. My daughter included, Bill.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Saw Miss Bardahl run in the Seattle area as a kid, guess I am showing my age

Early 80's, we lived in an apartment complex that backed up on the Detroit River. Boats ran 25 yards off the shoreline

The first year all boats were running Merlin and Griffon V-12 engines from WW II Spitfires [like Miss Bardahl]. Amazing sight and sound of the 5 boats in each race 25 yards away.

Second year Miss Bud ran the first turbine, then it all changed.

Man - that was something to see and hear.

[Rick Potter]

You're right Bob. I don't want to spoil an informative thread. I edited it.

[Bill Dufour]

I just read the Lordstown electric pickup truck company may go bankrupt. Hard to compete against Ford and GMC while asking over $100,000 for an unknown brand. Total production is like 30 trucks so far. All got recalled a few months ago. No idea who made their batteries.
You can still get batteries that can work and fit in a Baker Electric from 1904.
Bill D.
Edit: Foxcom made Lordstown batteries and invested heavily in the company. They are calling in their loans.

[Rick Potter]

$100,000,000 Just doesn't go so far these days. Looks like most small startups are going to be left behind, along with some legacy companies who might not be able to change with the times.

Europe and China are really trying to push EV's, and starting to freeze out foreign carmakers who built plants there. I read an article about Chinese nationalism becoming a factor over there. 'Buy made in China autos' and help the Chinese economy. Sounds familiar. I have been trying to buy USA for a year and a half, first with the Maverick, then the Escape Plug in, then with the Bolt. One after the other has ads for unavailable cars, and/or dealer markups, and finally the Bolt becomes an orphan car.

The perfect car for me is a plug in hybrid with 50 miles of electric. I would prefer a Toyota RAV4 Plug-in, but it is hard to ignore a Tesla Model Y which is cheaper with the tax incentives. With my solar I would never have to buy power unless I went on a long trip, and it is currently the only one with dependable charging stations.

The daughter living here with us bought one, and her daughter bought one. I am starting to lean that way. With a new service center in walking distance, and the price reductions, I might finally make a move soon.

[Alan Lightstone]

$100,000,000 Just doesn't go so far these days. Looks like most small startups are going to be left behind, along with some legacy companies who might not be able to change with the times.

Europe and China are really trying to push EV's, and starting to freeze out foreign carmakers who built plants there. I read an article about Chinese nationalism becoming a factor over there. 'Buy made in China autos' and help the Chinese economy. Sounds familiar. I have been trying to buy USA for a year and a half, first with the Maverick, then the Escape Plug in, then with the Bolt. One after the other has ads for unavailable cars, and/or dealer markups, and finally the Bolt becomes an orphan car.

The perfect car for me is a plug in hybrid with 50 miles of electric. I would prefer a Toyota RAV4 Plug-in, but it is hard to ignore a Tesla Model Y which is cheaper with the tax incentives. With my solar I would never have to buy power unless I went on a long trip, and it is currently the only one with dependable charging stations.

The daughter living here with us bought one, and her daughter bought one. I am starting to lean that way. With a new service center in walking distance, and the price reductions, I might finally make a move soon.
I have the solar/Tesla combo. Hard not to love it. Only expenses after purchase are tires.

Really, this future is all about batteries. Lower cost/higher capacity batteries will facilitate massive changes in society.

I once heard Tesla described as a battery company that happens to sell cars. It's a great description of their future role.

[Jason Roehl]

Early 80's, we lived in an apartment complex that backed up on the Detroit River. Boats ran 25 yards off the shoreline

The first year all boats were running Merlin and Griffon V-12 engines from WW II Spitfires [like Miss Bardahl]. Amazing sight and sound of the 5 boats in each race 25 yards away.

Second year Miss Bud ran the first turbine, then it all changed.

Man - that was something to see and hear.

I lived in Madison, IN from ‘84-‘89. Went to the Governor’s Cup Regatta there several times, including once after I moved away, I think in ‘92 or ‘93. The first time I went, in ‘85, there were still a lot of Merlin engines running, and you didn’t just hear the boats go by, you FELT them. By the time I moved away, I think the Miss Madison (locally owned and operated) was the only boat still running a piston engine, and it was not competitive.

The turbine-powered unlimited boats are a sight to behold, though. Going almost 200 mph, just barely touching the water, throwing a 60’ tall, 300’ long roostertail…

[Larry Frank]

Batteries are certainly a key to EVs. Unfortunately, we are importing much of the raw materials from places like China. I think it is great that they are looking to source them in US. Lithium is one mineral but each battery contains a lot of graphite which is also imported. One company is opening a mine in Alaska which has huge reserves of graphite.

The other part of this is electrical generation. We need a large increase in electricity to supply the EV requirements. Building new generation plants takes a long time and expensive. We need to be planning and building these quickly.

[Peter Mich]

Agree completely. We recently had solar panels installed and then purchased a 2023 Hyundai Ioniq 5. We are very fortunate to be able to make this happen. When I think back to the various Chicago neighborhoods that I lived in for 30+ years, I struggle to imagine how heavily populated urban areas will be able to take advantage of EVs.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Batteries are certainly a key to EVs. Unfortunately, we are importing much of the raw materials from places like China. I think it is great that they are looking to source them in US. Lithium is one mineral but each battery contains a lot of graphite which is also imported. One company is opening a mine in Alaska which has huge reserves of graphite.

The other part of this is electrical generation. We need a large increase in electricity to supply the EV requirements. Building new generation plants takes a long time and expensive. We need to be planning and building these quickly.

There is a long boring film about life near the lithium salt fields in Peru. While looking for that I found this. Easy answers to gigantic chalanges seem elusive.

Documentary shines a light on lithium mining and conflicts in Argentina (https://dialogochino.net/en/extractive-industries/44943-in-the-name-of-lithium-documentary-shines-a-light-on-mining-and-conflicts-in-argentina/)

[Larry Frank]

Somehow if we want to go to EVs, we need to find an economic balance between mining the need resources and climate. You cannot have the batteries without the mining.

[Andrew More]

I expect mining to pick up in a number of places around the world as China becomes less and less desirable as a trading partner. As mentioned lithium is abundant, but China was willing to sell at the lowest price, so no nobody else could compete. That appears to be changing.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Somehow if we want to go to EVs, we need to find an economic balance between mining the need resources and climate. You cannot have the batteries without the mining.

Frank - you are correct. Same story for oil, natural gas, nuclear, wind farms, solar. There is no free lunch aka the law of unintended consequences.

I recently read that there is nearly - but not quite - zero value in recycling solar panels - whose effective life span is estimated at 25 years. Alla them there solar farms being installed - future landfill, and not too distant future.

Big solar and wind farm power generation, but no distribution network to move from gen sites to consumption. Grid ain't there.

I've got no position. I know change is gonna come, because it must come. Just that there are a lot of interrelated complexities to resolve. Which we will do. But we have to come to know the unknown.

Sadly, I've come to the conclusion that, now knowing the identity of Watergate's Deepthroat, I will never know where Hoffa is buried. Siiiigh. Oh, well.

[Rick Potter]

Kent, he is in a heavy duty concrete vault in my backyard, but I might be wrong there, I find a lot of really big rocks there too.

[Dave Lehnert]

60 minutes had a story about this tonight on TV.

[Rick Potter]

Any new theories?