Power and hand together (2): we have cases!

[Derek Cohen]

The target was to create mitred panels for two cases, which would form the basis for two night stands ...

https://i.postimg.cc/SQBXDMcH/A5.jpg

And then they needed to me rebated at the rear ...

https://i.postimg.cc/XvHzMsDQ/34.jpg

Finishing up with all these ...

https://i.postimg.cc/jqJk9Q64/39.jpg

Time to tape together ...

https://i.postimg.cc/VkBNFCHY/A12.jpg

And glue up ..

https://i.postimg.cc/qMKqzYs6/A15.jpg

We ended here ..

https://i.postimg.cc/rwLmWJjn/A16.jpg

Today I made a template for the bow fronts, marked the curves , and used the bandsaw to remove most of the waste ...

https://i.postimg.cc/Y9Yb5J21/A17.jpg

I contemplated cleaning this up with spokeshaves, then came to my senses and used a trim router and flush trim bearing ...

https://i.postimg.cc/L5VvXL15/A18.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/tRdB2QMb/A19.jpg

And cleaned up with a HNT Gordon spokeshave ...

https://i.postimg.cc/qqrj4jgW/A20.jpg

All the trouble at the start to make the mitres as clean and tight as possible. How did we do?

https://i.postimg.cc/BQqMzYrK/A22.jpg

The rebates and mitres look good ...

https://i.postimg.cc/7Ymmr14Q/A23.jpg

And I like the bow fronts ...

Tight mitres too https://www.woodcentral.com/bbs/perlb/smilies/smile.gif

https://i.postimg.cc/Jz0Kry47/A21.jpg


Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Carroll]

Hi Derek,

Beautiful work! I've never tried the taped mitre joint technique. But the results do speak for themselves, (and the care you exercised in cutting the mitres).

What are the square openings in the sides for?

Best Regards,

DC

[Frank Martin]

Hi Derek,

Looks amazing!

One question regarding the mitre joinery, is it just glue or did you use any other joinery? I am curious as I have been using this joinery for the last few cabinets and I added dominoes to reinforce the mitres.

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Derek,

…. What are the square openings in the sides for?

Best Regards,

DC

David, the openings are for drawers. Tiny drawers.

Just a little bit of interest in what otherwise is a simple piece. Hopefully the base will be interesting as well.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Derek Cohen]

Hi Derek,

Looks amazing!

One question regarding the mitre joinery, is it just glue or did you use any other joinery? I am curious as I have been using this joinery for the last few cabinets and I added dominoes to reinforce the mitres.

Mitres do not need reinforcing. There is a great deal of wives tails in this regard. They are capable of remaining tight without anything more than glue. I used Old Brown hide glue. The tape prevents leakage, and the glue cleans up on the inside with water.

Biscuits (splines) and dominos (mortice and tenons) are used in these situations for positioning and avoiding slipping while drying. In this case the tape takes care of this.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Henderson]

Mitres do not need reinforcing. There is a great deal of wives tails in this regard. They are capable of remaining tight without anything more than glue. I used Old Brown hide glue. The tape prevents leakage, and the glue cleans up on the inside with water.

Biscuits (splines) and dominos (mortice and tenons) are used in these situations for positioning and avoiding slipping while drying. In this case the tape takes care of this.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I used to think that, also, until I had a project take a hit and a glued miter came apart. Not all apart, but one joint opened up. Ever since then, I've reinforced miter joints with something, such as a biscuit or two. Never had a miter joint that was reinforced come apart.

Mike

[Added: Glue was Titebond.]

[Derek Cohen]

Mike, you know the saying, "one swallow does not make a summer"? It is likely that you had glue starvation in the mitre, causing it to fail.

This is a good video by Patrick Sullivan ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7HxBa9WVis&ab_channel=PatrickSullivan

Regards from Perth

Derek

[James Pallas]

Mike, you know the saying, "one swallow does not make a summer"? It is likely that you had glue starvation in the mitre, causing it to fail.

This is a good video by Patrick Sullivan ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7HxBa9WVis&ab_channel=PatrickSullivan

Regards from Perth

Derek

I would agree with this for todays world. Furniture in a controlled environment. An end to end joint joint in an uncontrolled environment is doomed to failure. The constant expansion and contraction of the wood across the grain is the issue. I would glue end to end or even a mitre for a piece in a controlled environment but would definitely assess the risk for a piece for the patio.
Jim

[Tom Vanzant]

I have a very old captain’s desk with a similar “tiny drawer”. It’s a pen drawer that pulls out, then hinges alongside the desk.

[Mike Henderson]

Mike, you know the saying, "one swallow does not make a summer"? It is likely that you had glue starvation in the mitre, causing it to fail.

This is a good video by Patrick Sullivan ...


Regards from Perth

Derek

I can absolutely assure you it was not glue starvation. A 45 degree miter joint is simply not as strong as a long-grain to long-grain glue joint.

Adding some type of spline to the joint adds strength.

Mike

[Frank Martin]

Mike, you know the saying, "one swallow does not make a summer"? It is likely that you had glue starvation in the mitre, causing it to fail.

This is a good video by Patrick Sullivan ...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7HxBa9WVis&ab_channel=PatrickSullivan

Regards from Perth

Derek

This is interesting… Thanks for the video, Derek.

I have been using miter joinery even for drawers as I like the aesthetics better than dovetails. I have always used dominoes as reinforcements and based on this video it sounds like it is a good idea for the drawers but may be not so much for the wider cabinet joinery. I will probably continue to use dominoes even for wider joints just in case…

[Derek Cohen]

...
Adding some type of spline to the joint adds strength.

Mike

Unnecessarily so, Mike. End grain to end grain is TWICE as strong as long grain to long grain glue ups.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Warren Mickley]

I watched the video. It is pitiful that someone who doesn't understand the first thing about wood would arrogate himself an expert.

The first thing is that wood has a strong direction and a weak direction. We depend on this strong direction when designing joinery, furniture and buildings. The test he should be doing is an endgrain to endgrain joint compared to no joint at all. In this test his joint would fail miserably.

In a side grain to side grain joint we can join two boards without a great difference between the joined board and a solid board. An end grain joint is very different

I'd like to see him saw a hickory shovel handle across the grain, glue it back together, and then try to shovel with it. And I can assure you that a shovel handle made with the grain going crosswise instead of lengthwise would not hold up, whether it breaks at the glue joints or in between.

[Derek Cohen]

Warren, do you EVER accept that anyone other than yourself has information of value? Even when something is demonstrated?

With regards to the video, it has been out for quite some time, and referenced by many knowledgeable woodworkers. Surely, you would think, someone would have criticised its research design by now?

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Warren Mickley]

Warren, do you EVER accept that anyone other than yourself has information of value? Even when something is demonstrated?

With regards to the video, it has been out for quite some time, and referenced by many knowledgeable woodworkers. Surely, you would think, someone would have criticised its research design by now?



This Sullivan guy reminds me of the old joke about an artist who is told by a doctor that he is taking up painting in his retirement. She says "I am going to be a brain surgeon when I retire".

How in the world was I able to sniff out that this guy wasn't even a woodworker?

[Mike Henderson]

Unnecessarily so, Mike. End grain to end grain is TWICE as strong as long grain to long grain glue ups.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I think you have some incorrect information, Derek. End grain to end grain glue ups are the weakest joint you can make. Long grain to long grain is a strong joint, stronger than the wood.

You better check your sources. Or do some testing.

Mike

[Maybe we have a definition problem. End grain is when you cut a long piece of wood. The wood at the end of that board is end grain. If you try to glue two boards together end-to-end, the joint will be quite weak.

If I glue two boards together side-to-side, that is long-grain to long-grain and the joint is quite strong.]]

[David Carroll]

I watched the video. It is pitiful that someone who doesn't understand the first thing about wood would arrogate himself an expert.

The first thing is that wood has a strong direction and a weak direction. We depend on this strong direction when designing joinery, furniture and buildings. The test he should be doing is an endgrain to endgrain joint compared to no joint at all. In this test his joint would fail miserably.

In a side grain to side grain joint we can join two boards without a great difference between the joined board and a solid board. An end grain joint is very different

I'd like to see him saw a hickory shovel handle across the grain, glue it back together, and then try to shovel with it. And I can assure you that a shovel handle made with the grain going crosswise instead of lengthwise would not hold up, whether it breaks at the glue joints or in between.

Hmm, did you watch the whole video? He did compare end-grain to end-grain joints with a sample piece with no joint at all, which of course was far stronger than any of the glue joints. I'm not sure anybody was making that claim.

The experiments seem pretty well thought out and well executed. I think they demonstrate what he intended to demonstrate. Of course, there are other variables in the design of furniture that the relative strength of a glued joint doesn't take into account: seasonal wood movement over time, mechanical forces being applied both as static and dynamic loads, wild temperature and moisture fluctuations are the ones I can think of off of the top of my head. But in terms of simply comparing the different types of glue joints, it seems to me to be well thought out.

[Alan Schwabacher]

Derek: The case looks beautiful, as usual for you.

With regard to miter gluing:
Sidegrain glued joints are stronger than wood is in that direction, or pretty weak. Endgrain glued joints are very weak compared to the grain in that direction. These things have led to standard joinery approaches that allow appropriate strength over time. People have overstated the differences at times, presumably with the intent of encouraging consistently good results.

Patrick Sullivan has shown that some endgrain joints, tested soon after their assembly, are twice as strong as similar sidegrain joints. It would not be reasonable to ask him to test the number of samples, configurations or ages of joint to tell whether his observation is broadly applicable. Because of wood grain strength anisotropy it does not matter for most traditional joints, but miters may differ in that regard. Sidegrain miters are glued with alignment as the only reason for additions. Sullivan suggests endgrain miters should be similar or better. Splines definitely add glue surface, and can add fibers directly across the join. Presumably that's a stronger joint, but as usual the question is whether the extra strength is needed in a given application.

[Warren Mickley]

Hmm, did you watch the whole video? He did compare end-grain to end-grain joints with a sample piece with no joint at all, which of course was far stronger than any of the glue joints. I'm not sure anybody was making that claim.

The experiments seem pretty well thought out and well executed. I think they demonstrate what he intended to demonstrate. Of course, there are other variables in the design of furniture that the relative strength of a glued joint doesn't take into account: seasonal wood movement over time, mechanical forces being applied both as static and dynamic loads, wild temperature and moisture fluctuations are the ones I can think of off of the top of my head. But in terms of simply comparing the different types of glue joints, it seems to me to be well thought out.

I think it is misleading to suggest that end grain joints are as strong as side grain joints because we expect so much more from our timber in the lengthwise direction.

Suppose you wanted a panel for a case side that is 18X28. If you had two 10 wide boards they could easily be glued together to make a sturdy panel.
If you had two 15 inch long boards you could glue them together, but then your panel would be weak in both directions Unsatisfactory.

Or if you wanted a 16X60 bench seat, are you going to glue up two 30 inch long boards? It could make for some unhappy moments if two people were on the bench.

Short boards glued end to end might work for karate class.

[Tony Shea]

This is an interesting debate. Unfortunately I don't think it belongs in Derek's build post if we continue it. But I will add my 2 cents. I trust Derek's advice and have followed his work,tool reviews, tool mods, etc... for a lot of years. I integrate many of his methods in my shop every day. Having said this, I can't possibly get on board with end grain to end grain glue ups being stronger than long grain to long grain. I've done my own half hazard testing in my shop with this exact thing. I have also tested end grain 45deg miter joints. Without question the long grain to long grain is so much stronger than both of the other glue ups. But I do think many people give enough credit to how strong a miter joint on end grain can be without splines, domino's, biscuits, etc. As long as you consider the extra glue that's required so as not to starve the joint. End grain will always soak up much more glue than a long grain surface, which is the reason most suffer from failed end grain miter glue ups.

[Tony Shea]

Now that I just watched the video, after posting above, I am a bit surprised. The only thing I disagree with is him saying the end grain glue up is stronger than long grain glue up. There is not a good way to test which one is stronger as the wood fails on the long grain glue up therefore there is no way to tell when the glue fails. The end grain glue up clearly fails on the glue line as the wood is much stronger when applying force that direction. But this doesn't conclude that an End grain glue up is stronger than a long grain glue up. The conclusion is that wood lignum is weaker than wood long grain.

[Derek Cohen]

Tony wrote:
End grain will always soak up much more gluejj than a long grain surface, which is the reason most suffer from failed end grain miter glue ups.

One omission from my post was the use of a sizing technique on the mitres. I always do this and just assumed all would know. Never assume. Sizing is the technique where the surface is coated with glue, where it is allowed to soak in and fill the tubes. When it is tacky, you add more glue, as if glueing for the first time.

A second point is that mitres are not true end grain; they are also long grain. And remember, there is little stress on this joinery, unlike the extreme examples Warren would throw up to make his point. Come to reality: a bedside table or nightstand lives in a climate controlled room and has a gentle existence.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mark Rainey]

The video is chicanery. Garbage. He states end grain to end grain glue joints are always stronger than side to side glue joints. False. In the video he NEVER demonstrates failure of a side to side glue joint, only failure of wood ( not the glue joint ) when it is stressed along the grain of the wood. Thank you Warren for sniffing this one out. What would we do without you?

[Mark Rainey]

Now that I just watched the video, after posting above, I am a bit surprised. The only thing I disagree with is him saying the end grain glue up is stronger than long grain glue up. There is not a good way to test which one is stronger as the wood fails on the long grain glue up therefore there is no way to tell when the glue fails. The end grain glue up clearly fails on the glue line as the wood is much stronger when applying force that direction. But this doesn't conclude that an End grain glue up is stronger than a long grain glue up. The conclusion is that wood lignum is weaker than wood long grain.

I agree Tony.

[William Fretwell]

Please really watch the video!
His side to side joints do NOT break at the glue line, EVER. It is the wood that fails. So yes; long grain to long grain is the strongest joint. The only glue joint he tests is the end to end, which FAILS at the glue line.
The other joints fail in the wood, the failure is a product of grain direction and flexion of the wood!

He is NOT really testing glue lines at all because to do that he would have to use far stronger wood so they all failed at the glue line for comparison.

This video is one of the most stupid contrived crap videos made by a non-engineer with NO brain.

Yes I’m a classically trained scientist that did University physics in high school. Also an engineer.

For those still struggling:
The weakest GLUE joint is end to end, this video proves it. The rest is garbage.

[Mike Henderson]

Tony wrote: .

One omission from my post was the use of a sizing technique on the mitres. I always do this and just assumed all would know. Never assume. Sizing is the technique where the surface is coated with glue, where it is allowed to soak in and fill the tubes. When it is tacky, you add more glue, as if glueing for the first time.

A second point is that mitres are not true end grain; they are also long grain. And remember, there is little stress on this joinery, unlike the extreme examples Warren would throw up to make his point. Come to reality: a bedside table or nightstand lives in a climate controlled room and has a gentle existence.

Regards from Perth

Derek

With a 45 degree miter, you can think of the joint as 50 percent end grain and 50 percent long grain. The 50 percent end grain is a weak joint, and the overall joint is weaker than a long-grain to long-grain joint. And, yes, I know about sizing and I assume most other people do, also. An end-grain joint is still weaker than a long grain joint, even with the sizing.

The lower the angle of the joint (such as a scarf joint) the stronger the joint will be. The weakest is a 90 degree (flat to flat) end grain joint.

The fact that a bedside table lives an easy life only means that a weak joint will work for it.

Mike

[Derek Cohen]

For those still struggling:
The weakest GLUE joint is end to end, this video proves it. The rest is garbage.

At the risk of being a broken record, we are discussing glueing mitres, not boards end-to-end.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Ben Ellenberger]

Well this thread went off the rails.

Thanks for posting this build Derek, I always appreciate the effort you put into showing how you do things, and I often pick up something worth remembering for later use.

[Gary Focht]

It seems to me that the question is not which glue joint is strongest, but is the joint Derek selected strong enough for his application? Derek believes it is and the video (which I have not watched in a long time) would suggest it likely is if it is well executed.

[William Fretwell]

Derek the difference between mitre grain and end grain contact area is trivial. The increase in surface area of the mitre is the main benefit over an end grain joint.

A mitre spline and it’s alignment is a lot of work. Double blind dovetails are even more work. I can see the appeal of tape to align but what is the point when the joint will eventually fail?

Glue does not replace a mechanical joint it just locks a mechanical joint in place.

This is one example where a strong dovetail joined case that is then veneered works well.

That ridiculous video should be stricken from this site, it is an abomination for real woodworkers.

[Derek Cohen]

Wiliam, I am not concerned that the case will fail. I have made others like this at least a dozen years in the past, and those are just fine. I will report on this in a dozen years :)

Regardless of your view on the video, it is important to recognise that none of the joints tested failed on the glue line. None. The wood failed first.

What really differentiated the examples was the direction of the wood grain of the boards, not the nature of the grain type being glued.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Rafael Herrera]

Derek,
hide glue is brittle, if your piece experiences a drop or hard impact, the glue joint may fail. I've seen the claims about strong endgrain glue joints, but I think they use PVA. I would use this joint on small boxes, but on larger pieces maybe some reinforcement or mitered dovetails would ensure the integrity of the joint.

[Mark Rainey]

Unnecessarily so, Mike. End grain to end grain is TWICE as strong as long grain to long grain glue ups.

Regards from Perth

Derek


Warren, do you EVER accept that anyone other than yourself has information of value? Even when something is demonstrated?

With regards to the video, it has been out for quite some time, and referenced by many knowledgeable woodworkers. Surely, you would think, someone would have criticised its research design by now?

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek, you do good work. You are an asset to the forum. We all make mistakes ( well, maybe not Warren or Charles ). As a psychologist you realize it is difficult to say one has made a mistake and is wrong. I admit I am wrong at times. It does not feel good. Retract the above statements. And move on.

[Derek Cohen]

Okay guys. This is now badgering. Move on.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[George Yetka]

I dont know what they are, but they look great.

[Tony Shea]

I'm apparently in the minority that was very impressed with the results from the tests in the video. William, you're being very excessive in your opinion of the video and the technique Derek used for his joinery. I can't imagine watching this video and not learning something from it. Prior to watching I would never feel comfortable creating a box joined like Derek's without adding splines or something similar to aid in glue adhesion. Thanks to the YouTube algorithm I was sent down a rabbit hole of similar videos claiming the unexpected strength of end grain glue ups. As Derek has mentioned, the miter is NOT an end grain glue up and does add a small amount of long grain. This doesn't seem to necessarily matter as the strength of the glue bond will be more than enough strength in most applications. This is assuming that you add enough glue so as not to have a glue starved joint, which is very common when dealing with end grain. Glue sizing should def help with this technique. I now would be more than comfortable building a similar mitered box without splines and rely on the strength of the glue. This is especially true in the application these cases will be used. This has inspired me to make a test version and see what kind of abuse it would withstand. I have no doubt that I would be able to stand on this case without any issues, if that's the case than how much stronger does it need to be?

[Derek Cohen]

Thank you George. Thank you Tony.

Hopefully, this is the last post I need to make on this topic. Just for the doubters :)

Go to the 25’ mark …


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=l_w_or3KhH4

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Frank Martin]

Derek,

First off, I am sorry my question ended up leading to somewhat “passionate” exchange of opinions.

My takeaway is that there is certainly some strength in these joints without mechanical joinery and depending on the use case, that may be sufficient for a given piece.

In fact, before I knew better (and had the skills for better joinery) my first drawers were simple rabbet corner joints with a glued bottom. After over 20 years none of those failed yet as they are not heavily loaded or used very frequently.

Thank you for sharing your builds and thought process.

[Derek Cohen]

Thank you for your comment, Frank. As I explained to another, I could have said more. I didn't, which is my bad. I was already not happy that the thread had been derailed along such negative lines.

What could have been said was this - and I feel now that it is my duty to clear up any misconceptions about the joinery here:

What Patrick's video demonstrated was that glue is stronger than wood. Most of us have known this for many years. But that does not mean that it is a satisfactory substitute for joinery. At the same time, one does not need to use extreme joinery for everything. It is relevant to differentiate "stressed" from "non-stressed" joints. Panels being glued up are non-stressed. If someone adds biscuits or dominos, it is not for strength; it is for alignment. The glue alone should suffice. See the last video I posted, by Rob Cosman. He shows just how strong the glue join really is ... all 200 lbs of him!

The same situation is present in the mitres for these cases. The only possible stress is from the atmosphere, and I believe that this is negated by the fact that the wood is consistent and the grain of the boards joined are, essentially, coplanar. Will the glue breakdown? Sure, eventually ... in a 100 or so years. Look at vintage furniture using hide glue. These pieces are not intended to last 100 or more years. Fashion will see to that. So ... okay for this situation, not-okay for stressed joinery.

With regard to mitres and biscuits et al, a big reason they are used is to prevent movement when glueing up. Glue is slippery and a misaligned mitre is ugly. Glueing a mitred joint is tricky. The tape method I used here is fantastic for alignment, better than anything else out there. And easy.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mark Rainey]

Derek, I agree that glue can be sufficient in some miter joints. I glued this miter joint 22 years ago with hide glue and it still looks good.

500795

I am not sure if hand tool woodworkers reinforced miter joints historically ( before 1830 ). Perhaps larger ones? Mark

[Mike Henderson]

The same situation is present in the mitres for these cases. The only possible stress is from the atmosphere, and I believe that this is negated by the fact that the wood is consistent and the grain of the boards joined are, essentially, coplanar. Will the glue breakdown? Sure, eventually ... in a 100 or so years. Look at vintage furniture using hide glue. These pieces are not intended to last 100 or more years. Fashion will see to that. So ... okay for this situation, not-okay for stressed joinery.

With regard to mitres and biscuits et al, a big reason they are used is to prevent movement when glueing up. Glue is slippery and a misaligned mitre is ugly. Glueing a mitred joint is tricky. The tape method I used here is fantastic for alignment, better than anything else out there. And easy.

Regards from Perth

Derek

I agree with your comments that miters glued without any reinforcing are fine for many cases. What I object to is the comment that end grain glue joints are twice as strong as long-grain glue joints. When I was early in woodworking I learned from experience that end grain to end grain is a very weak joint. Anyone can test this for themselves.

I agree that biscuits or dominos in long grain glue-up don't add anything to the strength of the joint. But they do add strength to any end grain joint, including miters. Again, anyone can test this for themselves. Glue two pieces of wood together in a miter joint (end grain), let the glue cure well, then clamp one piece down to your bench and hit the other with a mallet. It will come apart.

Do the same thing with a biscuit or small domino in the miter. You will experience the increased strength of the joint.

Mike

[Derek Cohen]

...
I agree that biscuits or dominos in long grain glue-up don't add anything to the strength of the joint. But they do add strength to any end grain joint, including miters. Again, anyone can test this for themselves. Glue two pieces of wood together in a miter joint (end grain), let the glue cure well, then clamp one piece down to your bench and hit the other with a mallet. It will come apart.

Do the same thing with a biscuit or small domino in the miter. You will experience the increased strength of the joint.

Mike

Mike, if you plan to hammer on a glued mitre joint verses a reinforced mitre joint, all you are demonstrating is the strength in a non-stressed verses a stressed situation. The mitres in the cases above fall into the non-stressed category. So, while I agree that you can strengthen a mitre joint with biscuits or dominos or splines, what I have been saying here is that it is unnecessary in a simple mitred case such as those here.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Henderson]

Mike, if you plan to hammer on a glued mitre joint verses a reinforced mitre joint, all you are demonstrating is the strength in a non-stressed verses a stressed situation. The mitres in the cases above fall into the non-stressed category. So, while I agree that you can strengthen a mitre joint with biscuits or dominos or splines, what I have been saying here is that it is unnecessary in a simple mitred case such as those here.

Regards from Perth

Derek

You left out the first part of my comment:
+++++++++
I agree with your comments that miters glued without any reinforcing are fine for many cases. What I object to is the comment that end grain glue joints are twice as strong as long-grain glue joints. When I was early in woodworking I learned from experience that end grain to end grain is a very weak joint. Anyone can test this for themselves.
+++++++++
You and I agree that an unreinforced miter joint will work in certain situations. We appear to disagree that an end grain joint is twice as strong as a long grain joint.

If you look at commercial people, such as the people who make wooden base molding, you'll see that they often glue smaller pieces to make longer pieces. Note how that material is glued - they cut the ends into fingers that fit together so that the joint is more long grain to long grain than end grain to end grain. If end grain joints were stronger they would not do that.

Mike

[Dave Fitzgerald]

It took me a while to realize what bothered me about this thread. It is not that glued miters might or might not be strong enough for the application. The real anomaly here is that Derek has made a case WITHOUT a couple dozen flawlessly executed secret miter dovetails in a nearly-impossible-to-work species. What is the world coming to ...

Very attractive work with some wonderful explanations. Thanks Derek.

[Rafael Herrera]

Mike, if you plan to hammer on a glued mitre joint verses a reinforced mitre joint, all you are demonstrating is the strength in a non-stressed verses a stressed situation. The mitres in the cases above fall into the non-stressed category. So, while I agree that you can strengthen a mitre joint with biscuits or dominos or splines, what I have been saying here is that it is unnecessary in a simple mitred case such as those here.

Derek

I don't think this notion of stressed/non-stressed categories is an assurance of the longevity of a piece of furniture. Accidents happen, moving one of these pieces from one place to another and a strong impact could be enough to shatter the glue line. Glue alone may be enough to get the piece assembled, but in my opinion it is a shortcut.

[Derek Cohen]

It took me a while to realize what bothered me about this thread. It is not that glued miters might or might not be strong enough for the application. The real anomaly here is that Derek has made a case WITHOUT a couple dozen flawlessly executed secret miter dovetails in a nearly-impossible-to-work species. What is the world coming to ...

Very attractive work with some wonderful explanations. Thanks Derek.

:D

I think that you have something there, Dave. :) There has been much over-reaction, although I admit that I could have taken more time to explain this area. I just did not think it to be such a huge issue as made out by a few.

It is not as if I - and many others - have not built mitred boxes or enclosures without reinforcing the mitres. Here are just a few of those I have done in the past. No dovetails, no biscuits (splines), no dominos ….

I have used this pencil box every day for the past 12 years …

https://i.postimg.cc/0kQR3Std/B1.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/6W3q0ynF/B5.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

I was reminded in another member’s post today of this box made for the Veritas Combination Plane. It has been bumped around for 5 years …

https://i.postimg.cc/zqFkNqqR/C2DDB616-9ED7-4500-99F8-CEFE4E65A119.png (https://postimages.org/)


I lug this tool box to demonstrations. I am not especially gentle with it …

https://i.postimg.cc/R40KZH1z/11.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/0xn7vfwf/13.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

And more recently I built a new plinth and isolation table for a turntable. The isolation table has compound mitres …

https://i.postimg.cc/Ns58RTm1/0E0ACA7C-68D8-4163-88DE-4BB0F32B6C59.png (https://postimages.org/)

https://i.postimg.cc/KZ9rKQkG/B2A9FF75-50FB-4990-8D84-56A4ED15A29C.png (https://postimages.org/)

Now it is important to emphasise that I am not recommending that one use un-reinforced mitres indiscriminately; assess the demands and the determine the risk. For example, a small box may have thin sides and thin mitres, but there is relatively less chance of the panels flexing.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[William Fretwell]

The end to end failed at the glue line. A mitre joint is not so different.

[Alan Schwabacher]

Years ago in Fine Woodworking someone described making boxes with unreinforced miters, perhaps speaker cabinets. Expecting challenge on the technique, he pointed out that he had been doing it for decades after a test (admittedly in plywood so the miter was partly sidegrain) in which the box was thrown hard many times to the concrete floor without any corners breaking open. Can crossgrain splines strengthen? Sure. But this sounds strong enough for many uses to me.

[Derek Cohen]

Thank you for understanding, Alan.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Mike Allen1010]

Derek look forward to seeing rest of build thread- the design is interesting and the execution of your strategy is, as always, impressive. Not interested in further discussions of relative merits of joinery glue strength. One of the beauties of our craft is we all have our own experience, which may differ from person to person. IMHO it's completely fine that there are multiple ways to skin a cat - to each his own.. Now on with the show!!:)

[Frank Martin]

Derek look forward to seeing rest of build thread- the design is interesting and the execution of your strategy is, as always, impressive. Not interested in further discussions of relative merits of joinery glue strength. One of the beauties of our craft is we all have our own experience, which may differ from person to person. IMHO it's completely fine that there are multiple ways to skin a cat - to each his own.. Now on with the show!!:)

Totally agree! Looking forward to seeing the rest, especially the base, the secret drawer, and the overall design.

[David Carroll]

Totally agree! Looking forward to seeing the rest, especially the base, the secret drawer, and the overall design.
Same here, I am particularly intrigued with the little drawers!

I also like how the grain matches all around with the mitres.

DC

[Mike Allen1010]

I have to say the grain wrap on the carcass is gorgeous! great example of Derek’s attention to detail and execution, that IMHO are the difference between ordinary and extraordinary. I’m definitely making a piece like this just for the grain wrap.

[John Erickson]

Derek thanks for your post on mitre glue-ups, it's always insightful to have your input. Like yourself I like mitres but what's notable is many of your posts and articles contain mitres from over several years. On another note I never thought to do what you've done to a turntable, it's beautiful.

[Rafael Herrera]

We were shopping at a store in New England and I noticed an old display cabinet, unused. The top used splines in the mitered joints. One side looked in good shape, the other one not so much. The top was not hinged, so it was attached, presumably, in a non stressed configuration. If a splined joint can fail in this configuration, would you still risk it by just gluing the parts?

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[Derek Cohen]

What is the history of that piece, Rafael? It looks very rough and weathered.

Interesting method of adding a spline. Very neat. I like how it is hidden.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Rafael Herrera]

Unfortunately I didn't ask. The picture with the plaque shows the maker. It was a well made, big display cabinet, nice muntines, see the plaque picture. The store is in Bar Harbor, by the ocean, tough weather.

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

thank you. well said

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

I'm relatively new to woodworking. I know about sizing but only maybe 6 months or so, a Lost Art Press blog brought it up. I've been reading all things woodworking for a while so I wouldn't consider it something everyone would know...

[Keegan Shields]

Derek, really cool thread and I look forward to seeing the completed piece! Love the small drawer and the mechanics inside used to ensure a smooth action.

Seems like the advice to "use the right joint for the right task" applies here. Totally agree that glued miters work for some situations. Scarf joints would be further along that strength continuum. Good for boat planking where the ribs provide support, but I wouldn't use a scarf joint for load-bearing timber that is unsupported across a 10' span. Its all about the proper application of each joint type. Perhaps that's where woodworkers vary in opinion.

I (probably like others here) tend to over build furniture because the downside (failure) usually outweighs the upside (time savings) and because we build a lot of one-off pieces. That's what I find fun about making chairs - there's not a lot of room for overbuilding on a chair if you want to keep it visually and physically light weight.

[Will Blick]

It's usually Derek firing the machine gun at others... (although in fairness, not very often)
I was on the wrong end of it once when Derek went into similar attack mode, similar to what happened to him on this thread. Yes, its uncalled for, but I guess it's Karma also.

Regardless, I watched that video years ago. As an engineer, its hard not to see value in his testing methodology, technique and equipment. It's a free youtube video, it does not cover every possible scenario, wood type, glue type, force angle, aging, etc. Assuming his test values are honest and accurate (no reason to suspect otherwise), it's hard not acknowledge the conclusion the video revealed. Breaking (or not) at the glue line is not what was relevant, it was the relative force values that was determinative.

[Derek Cohen]

It's usually Derek firing the machine gun at others... (although in fairness, not very often)
I was on the wrong end of it once when Derek went into similar attack mode, similar to what happened to him on this thread. Yes, its uncalled for, but I guess it's Karma also.

Regardless, I watched that video years ago. As an engineer, its hard not to see value in his testing methodology, technique and equipment. It's a free youtube video, it does not cover every possible scenario, wood type, glue type, force angle, aging, etc. Assuming his test values are honest and accurate (no reason to suspect otherwise), it's hard not acknowledge the conclusion the video revealed. Breaking (or not) at the glue line is not what was relevant, it was the relative force values that was determinative.

Will, I welcome debate, and disagreeing is part of this. It makes for learning when arguments are backs with facts and examples, rather than just unsubstantiated opinion. I would hardly call being attacked “karma” - is it my earned retribution? :)

I believe that we move forward when we try something new. Doing this blindly is foolhardy. Having enough evidence in support is relevant. Taking the first step may be brave. When it works, others come along and state that they knew about it for years.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Bill Carey]

Now that the end grain glue joint clouds have drifted off over the lake, a simple question, Derek: is that packing tape you used to align the miters? I tried packing tape once and it very slightly pulled some fibers up upon removal, so I switched to blue painters tape. I'm sure you have a reason for the packing tape, if in fact that is what it is. Curious what that might be. Perhaps simply to be able to see that the joint is correct during assembly?

[Derek Cohen]

Bill, it depends on the wood. I imagine the worst woods for tape are those with open grain, such as Oak. Closed grained woods, such as Cherry and Maple would fare better.

In my case, the Tasmanian Oak is open grain and a very tiny amount of fibre was pulled up. Nothing of relevance - a few swipes with sandpaper removed all evidence. If you have any concerns, I am sure that you would pull it off very easily if you first warmed it with a hair dryer.

This packing tape is much stronger than blue tape and has less stretch. That is why I used it.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Carroll]

I wonder if the tape pulled too many fibers out of the wood if you could start with a layer of blue tape and then to buttress this with the packing tape to avoid stretching and add strength. I've never tried the tape method but I am interested in it. I normally use a picture framing vise and miter clamps.

DC

[Derek Cohen]

David, try on a test piece and report your findings here.

Regards from Perth

Derek