Electric Cars Anyone?

[Thomas McCurnin]

We have a beloved 23 year old PT Cruiser that has an electric problem and seems unrepairable, at least by the 3-4 auto electricians we've been to.

So we are looking for a very small (under 170" long) city type car for short runs to the grocery store etc. We have another vehicle for large loads and highway driving, so this is strictly a city car.

Chevy has a new Bolt EV that has a 15% Federal rebate just announced this week, and Chevy will pay for installation of a 240v charging station. While I have not been on the electric car bandwagon, between the Federal Rebate and the Dealer installed charging station, this Bolt is starting to look attractive.

Any of you guys have electric cars? How do you like them?

[Lee Schierer]

I think for running around town they are a great idea. For cross country trips over 300 miles, not so much. Recharging times from empty are far to long for me to get a fully electric car for travel out of town but I might consider a plug in hybrid.

[Jim Becker]

I friend of mine just ordered a Bolt EV as it was within his affordability and does qualify for the rebate, even after the clarification this week by the Treasury.

I originally intended to trade our 2020 Forester Limited for an EV next year as it's been our second "running around" vehicle while I use my larger 2019 Ascent Touring (also a Subaru) for hauling, trailering and travel. But Professor Dr. SWMBO is no longer driving for medical reasons and we've decided to go to one vehicle and for now, that will be the Ascent. There isn't an EV option available to me for the money I'd be willing to put out that can handle the size and hauling needs I have, or is from a brand I'll buy, at least at the present time. BUT, I'm very keen on EV and PHEV and will most likely get there in a few years.

I also agree with Lee, that at least currently, for travel situations and folks who live in areas that are a little outside the urban landscape or get off the beaten path, a PHEV is the better choice.

[Alan Rutherford]

I'll consder an electric car the first time I see someone whose battery ran down walking back to his car carrrying a gallon of volts. YMMV.

[Bill Dufour]

Alan, when is the last time you saw someone carrying a bottle of gasoline from the pharmacy to his out of gas motorcar? If there is enough demand they will make stations that only sell fuel. either gasoline or electric. How did the old electric cars get charged? at home or special charging stands somewhere in town?
My Gravely rototiller had a battery start option that used 120 D cell batteries or a 12 volt car battery.
Bill D

[Paul F Franklin]

Don't have one yet, but certainly will when we need to replace current vehicles down the road. Have a good friend from a 4 tesla family. He and his wife regularly drive from Vegas to Cleveland and back (he summers in Cleveland). He says at his age (70ish) they are stopping for bathroom breaks and to stretch their legs or sight-see more often than they need to just to charge.

I think just as we learned long ago how to manage the range of a gas powered vehicle to not run out of gas (I never have in nearly 50 years of driving) we will learn to manage charging to do the same.

Sure, there are places in the country and some people's particular needs that are not currently a good match for EV's, but those cases are falling away as the vehicles and charging networks get better and better.

[Edward Weber]

Out here, the local Pepsi distributor is starting to use electric trucks for local runs
https://www.cbsnews.com/sacramento/news/tesla-semi-trucks-sacramento-fleet-pepsico/

[Charlie Velasquez]

I'll consder an electric car the first time I see someone whose battery ran down walking back to his car carrrying a gallon of volts. YMMV.

Alan, your time may be here.
Probably more than a gallon…
Scheduled to hit the market by June.
499899

[Alan Rutherford]

Alan, when is the last time you saw someone carrying a bottle of gasoline from the pharmacy to his out of gas motorcar?...

Never, AFAIK but I've I've certainly seen people carrying cans of gas from the gas station. Unlike some people who have never run out of gas, I'll even admit to having done that myself when I was younger and somewhat less responsible. Also carried a can of gas in the trunk for years.

My point is that, no matter how ubiquitous or convenient the electric charging stations are, if you're out of juice you need a tow or a mobile charging station of which, AFAIK, there are none.

I love my hybrid Prius and I'm very much in favor of the EV concept. If the OP just uses it to go to the store and recharges at home - sounds great. But I would not take the risk running out of power in an EV lightly.

[Edit: Charlie posted his reply while I was writing mine. There may be a solution on the horizon.]

[Allan Dozier]

i have owned a Kia EV6 for one year and absolutely love it. I still use my diesel truck for towing and hauling huge loads but I don't think I will ever buy another ICE vehicle. I don't take long trips much anymore so with the usual driving around town I only need to charge it a couple times a week. However, if I did need to take a long trip I would still take the EV. I believe the stats are that it can charge from 10% to 80% at a fast charger in 18 minutes. The few over 300 mile trips I have done involved stopping for charging for 10 to 20 minutes.
The torque, smoothness. quietness, acceleration and almost no maintenance will be appreciated. If most of your driving is local I would predict you will like it.

[Dave Zellers]

As a very good friend told me 50 years ago after he signed on with a very large corporation, their motto was, "We don't have problems, we have solutions".

[Aaron Rosenthal]

I've ordered a Maverick Hybrid; heaven only knows when I get it.
I need to haul stuff, or I'd absolutely jump on the bigger Volt. My only other consideration is if my wife can get in and out of a EV or hybrid.
A friend owns a little Toyota (not Prius) hybrid. Loves it.

[Dave Zellers]

I do believe EV's will come of age quickly especially for local needs, which really is probably 90+% of most peoples driving. I'd like to see more along the lines of beefed up golf carts (that look like tiny cars), for all the quick trips we do every day, and have greater acceptance for ICE cars for long trips.

[Ronald Blue]

The infrastructure in rural America isn't ready for a large volume of EV's yet. Maybe not in the cities either. Love our Toyota Avalon hybrid. Just last week we took a trip that was close to 350 miles one way. One bathroom stop and no gas stops needed. Drove around the 3 days we were there and filled up for the return the night before. One bathroom stop on the way back as well. Unlike some other hybrids Toyota is the gold standard. They exceed expectations consistently. I'm not interested in planning my trip around where charging stations are.

[Alex LaZella]

I have owned all electric and I currently own a plug in hybrid. It is one of five cars I own all the others are ICE. I have been in this game for quite awhile. If you are retired which is sounds like a lot of you are, then electric cars will be great. If you are working (commuting) and then coming home to run kids to sports/events do honey-do stuff then not so great. Obviously there is a reason I have a plug in hybrid rather than pure electric. Simple reason, I dont always have time to sit around and watch my car charge, I need to go places. Dont be too impressed with anyone offering a "charging station" A quick amazon search showed a million options for under $200 bucks. I have a duosida cord set that I got from amazon to replace the factory cord(s) You guys are woodworkers, right? surely you have a 240V outlet somewhere in your garage. If so all you need is a cord. there is no "station" the charger is in your car. the cord from the wall just needs to interface with your car. Every car except Tesla has a universal plug, Teslas come with an adapter. I can and do plug my charger into any of my woodworking outlets. My jointer planer outlet is pretty close to one of the garage doors so when I work I back the car out and plug the car in to that outlet rather than the normal car outlet that is much deeper in to the garage.

running around town etc., electric is great. driving or living somewhere where you are forced to use public chargers sucks real hard unless you have a tesla. Tesla chargers are great as long as you understand you will be sitting for 30-40 minutes. most of the teslas it is 45 minutes. Public chargers are expensive too and notorious for not working last time I went to the local wally world 2 of the fast chargers were black screen. Non tesla fast chargers cost more than gas, at least in the midwest. I guess very little costs more than gas in California. The push to go all electric cars is straight BS, doesnt help the environment and wont work for most of the country. Try leaving an electric car outside and not plugged in during a cold winter and you will understand why it will never work for apartment dwellers. something like 35% of this country lives in apartments. EV's are designed for and work great leaving your heated or cooled garage and then driving to work and hooking up to your free charger at the office. I did that for a long time. Once my PHEV got to 100k miles I stopped driving it for work and gave it to one of my kids to use. The batteries in the car are deal breakers. If my PHEv battery goes out- the last time I checked it would be at least $9k to replace it. I just grabbed one of our normal cars and started piling on the miles to it. Even if an ICE engine blows you can swap it out for way less than a battery costs. California used to, I havent checked in awhile, make the car companies warrant the batteries for 150k miles. I assume they just build one battery regardless of where it is sold so I assume I should get around that far from mine. As for the BS of no maintenance or low maintenance dont make me laugh. You dont use the brakes as much in an EV because regenerative braking. But wait, not using the brakes means they need to be maintained or they can just rust themselves immobile. Call Tesla and ask them how much it costs to get the brakes system serviced for preventative maintenance. Lubing that system up costs more than what I paid for all new brakes at a stealership on any of my ICE cars before I learned to do my own. I think it was like $7 or 800. We dont live in the 1980s; modern cars dont need maintenance until 100k miles these days. yes I know your dealer swears you have to do XXXX but the plugs and radiator all go 100k miles. If you dont drive crazy you can get a pretty good chunk of that out of your tires and brakes too. I had a camry rented for work, drove it almost a week. I was not gentle -was doing 80 on the interstates. I only put gas in it once I got 41 miles per gallon. That is what most of the country needs.

As to people running out of gas I see it all the time. I stopped and took a guy to the station to fill a can just last month. I think it might have something to do with not everyone being rich.

now for the good-

they are fun to drive
it is super satisfying to run errands and recharge at home for pennies
most of them have really cool features. your tesla will come pick you up from the portico of your hotel, you can usually preheat or precool your car before you get in etc.
its fun to try to stretch your range, seeing how different speeds or braking strategies will impact your range
newer EVs have heat pumps (dont buy one without a heat pump if you live anywhere that gets cold) this takes a lot of the sting out of winter..NB not if you leave your car outside and unplugged
if all you do is running around stuff in a fairly short area you will wonder why everyone doesnt have one of these things
Every EV comes with seat heaters (sure it is because they dont want you to use the heater but my kids all insist on seat heaters and that is a trim level above the el cheapo on an ICE car)

If you can afford it they make a nice second or third car. Keep and ICE car for emergencies etc. If you can get free charging at work that is a nice bonus as well.

[roger wiegand]

I'm about six months in with a Tesla Model Y. With the recent price reductions and federal rebates the price of a 3 is getting very reasonable. I've driven about 10,000 miles so far including one ~2000 mile trip and several 600 mile ones. Charging while traveling has been a complete non-issue. I need to stop every couple of hours anyway and by the time I've attended to my needs the car is usually done recharging. Typically while traveling you'd recharge for ~20% to 80%, this takes 20 minutes in a Tesla. Typically three stops between Boston and Cleveland (600 miles), to end up with a 40-50% charge when I arrive (no charger at my sister's place). Perhaps much longer in other vehicles, I don't know. At home I charge every few days and never even think about it.

With MA electric rates there isn't much cost saving vs a 40-50 mpg hybrid. In most parts of the country you'd save quite a bit. The car is really quick and quite comfortable on long trips. I bought it as kind of an experiment, I'm never going back to gas. We take it on long trips in preference to the hybrid RAV4 we bought about the same time now because it is nicer to drive and no more hassle.

I also appreciate that it has the highest "made in USA" content of any car you can buy.

[Paul F Franklin]

Just as the towing and roadside assistance industries adapted to front wheel drive and vehicles that require a flat bed tow, they will adapt to EV's and have power packs or generators (if they don't already) so they can service the occasional out of juice situation. When any disruption comes to technology, it's common to point out all the places where the new whatever doesn't stack up against the well established and mature alternative and say: not for me. Others look at how fast the new technology is advancing and the potential it has and say: I want in now! And that's fine. There will always be early adopters, later adopters, and never adopters.

[Jack Frederick]

There was a good comparison article in the Wa Post over the weekend on EV’s. It detailed the available tax credits by model. As a part of the re-wire of the garage to a shop I added a car charger so my daughter (Audi S4 vE-torn) can re-charge here. I am told there are rebates available from the utility for installing a charger but have to detail that.

[Bill Dufour]

MY utility district you can get rebates for a car charger but you must show you own a electric car registered to that address.
BilL D

[Rick Potter]

Very timely thread for me as we have been trying to buy a Bolt EUV for three months. Because of the rebate uncertainty, dealers cannot even get them around here, and trying to get a red one is impossible, unless you will pay a few thou above list at which time they appear like magic. I gave up on a Maverick hybrid months ago and you still can't find one at list.

Tesla recently started a price war on EV's recently. My 25 y/o grand daughter got a Tesla Model 3 last week, after the price went down, ordered the car and picked it up within a week. My daughter, her mom, ordered a Model Y three days ago, because of the price drop, and picked it up yesterday and she found out the price was reduced another two grand that morning. Tesla had already changed the price to the lower amount without her asking.

With the price reductions (probably clearing out inventory before an updated Model 3 comes out) a Tesla Model 3 costs less than the AVERAGE new car (about $42K) BEFORE the rebate.

If you live somewhere rural and cold, an EV is not a good idea. In suburban SoCal they are practical and common as houseflies. I saw three Teslas at a busy intersection recently while waiting for the light. The Model 3 is the most sold CAR in CA. I live in SoCal, have owned two plug in hybrids for 10 years, and have solar at home. I charge at home 99% of the time and get gas about every three months, as over 80% of the total mileage on both cars is on electric.

So, Bolt EUV not available. Toyota RAV4 plug in over a year to order. Tesla more affordable and available. Hmmm.

[Kev Williams]

Well, after this morning's colossal SpaceX failure, and news stories with titles like "Why Telsa's keep catching on fire", I have come to the conclusion that none of my money will ever go into Elon Musk's pockets... If I ever get an electric vehicle- which is doubtful, it will NOT be a Tesla...

[roger wiegand]

Well, after this morning's colossal SpaceX failure, and news stories with titles like "Why Telsa's keep catching on fire", I have come to the conclusion that none of my money will ever go into Elon Musk's pockets... If I ever get an electric vehicle- which is doubtful, it will NOT be a Tesla...

We can agree that Elon is a twit, but if your buying choices are are to be dictated by the idiocies and excesses of company CEOs I doubt you'd have any choices left if you knew all the details.

BTW, electric car fires are pretty rare; this data from NHTSA 2021 data: "Hybrid vehicle fires ranked first with 3474.5 fires per 100,000 vehicle sales (16,051 fires). Next came ICE cars with 1520.9 fires per 100,000 sales (199,533 fires). BEVs were at the very bottom of this calamity heap with only 25.1 fires per 100,000 vehicle sales (52 fires)."

[Tom M King]

I'm hoping the 23 year old diesel dually lasts until they come out with an EV dually. I could get by with a 100 mile range. Still running a gas burner for Pam because we live a long way away from almost anything.

The SpaceX test this morning was not considered a failure. There is a lot going on there that will take a bunch of testing to get everything not only right, but reliable. It's not unusual in the space game to blow stuff up in the process. That beast had to have a bunch of vibrating that has never been seen before, and the only way to really test it is to light the fire. At least the launch pad is still intact.

[Warren Lake]

same as Tom on how he views that heard radio guy saying negative no one was hurt or killed stuff was learned. I dont care about the space thing I find this world complicated enough. I have no draw to new electric as ive never bought new in my life. Cars I own now are all worth more than I paid for them though never the thought at the time buying them. I can get by with less and could not care less how im seen in traffic. You will pay more tax on your car than I pay for my car. I will have better machines in my shop than you. Have friends with multiply high end stuff some over 10 cars for sure. All good and fine, I love it that they can call up buy a GT-40 or have mulitple years of collector cars.

Same time I annoy my car builder friends as I look at classic car conversions. More every day. The truck runs great at 50 years old but id never say id not consider a conversion. Im just open to see it evolve fast as it goes and they have done likely almost every brand of car at this point or most.

I hear lots of neg on him, last at a car show company showing me top cordless polisher right now and said has a 45 minute run time their low number had to do that time . He said they have a special battery tech, I said from a Tesla? he smiled, lady behind me ripped my head off while her husband turned red and shrunk by some number of inches.

[Jim Becker]

Very timely thread for me as we have been trying to buy a Bolt EUV for three months. Because of the rebate uncertainty, dealers cannot even get them around here, and trying to get a red one is impossible, unless you will pay a few thou above list at which time they appear like magic. ....
So, Bolt EUV not available.
Rick, a friend of mine just ordered a Bolt and was quoted three months delivery. This was after several attempts and dealers telling him that ordering was closed. That apparently changed and in went the order. Geography might matter, but who knows?

[Larry Frank]

Elon Musk is A twit ??? No.....he owns Twitter and exposed a lot of nonsense that was going on.

He has lead this country to be the leader in space with reusable rocket ships. He is an industrial giant with great innovations. We need many more like him. And of course he is rich. If I was younger, I would want to work for him

[Larry Frank]

My question is how much electricity will California need due to their laws about every cars. I found information that indicates it will take 20-50% more kwh. Where will this power come from and where is the infrastructure to handle it?

I am disappointed that there seems to be no plans for how to accomplish this change. Building new power plants takes many years and renewable energy will not be sufficient to do it. If we really want to make this change, we need realistic plans to get there.

[Bill Dufour]

I just heard Ford is recalling their electric pickup because of battery fires. The GMC electric truck only comes as the fully loaded four door model at $105,000
Bill D.

https://www.teslarati.com/ford-f-150-lightning-battery-issue-production-stoppage/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CFord%20Motor%20Company%20(Ford), charged%20or%20near%20fully%20charged.%E2%80%9D

[Edward Weber]

I respectfully suggest we leave Elon Musk and California out of the discussion and focus on the OP's question.

[Lee DeRaud]

The SpaceX test this morning was not considered a failure. There is a lot going on there that will take a bunch of testing to get everything not only right, but reliable. It's not unusual in the space game to blow stuff up in the process. That beast had to have a bunch of vibrating that has never been seen before, and the only way to really test it is to light the fire. At least the launch pad is still intact.
For some arbitrary value of "intact". :)

The report I read this morning told of a documentary film crew that left a remote camera vehicle about 1/4-mile from the pad. Returned afterward to find bowling-ball-sized chunks of concrete littering the area. I really want to see that footage.

[Jeff Roltgen]

Here's an interesting diversion from the Musk topic:

How many of you are aware that the state of Wyoming is in the process of generating a law to outlaw all EV sales by 2035?
Check out Wyoming legislature's bill # SJ0004

They are quite staunch in their position: Oil and coal are the mainstays of the state, and they refuse to embrace anything that threatens their livelihood.
Quite stunned when I hear this a few weeks ago. Not sure current status on this, but certainly an interesting development on the road to electric vehicles.

[Jeff Roltgen]

Okay- some searching has indicated the bill is now dead. Still, curious witnessing how the world is reacting to this whole concept...

[Bert McMahan]

Wyoming's population is less than 600,000 people for the whole state. It would be the third largest city in my state of TN, so while of course that's a bunch of people it's hardly a blow to the EV industry overall. It strikes me as the classic "buggy whip makers being angered by the invention of the car"- of course they depend on oil and gas, but that's not where the industry is headed these days. They need to start switching to other industries instead of trying to legislate their relevance.

As to the OP's question- I bought a used Leaf several years ago and couldn't be happier switching. I've saved somewhere around $7000-$8000 in gas in just 3 years of ownership, and that includes the increase to my electric bill. My charger tracks how much power it uses, and so far my most expensive month was $39 worth of electricity. Plus, since a lot of electricity around here is coal-based, my utility offered a voluntary thing where you can add a few bucks a month to use more renewables instead of coal (we have lots of hydro and nuclear around here but certain times it's cheaper to run the coal plants, so paying a tiny amount more means they run more of the hydro/nuclear/solar instead). Well worth it to keep fresh air for my kids and me.

For those worried about batteries, well I can also say that my battery started showing signs of age beyond its years, so I took it to the dealer. They're replacing the entire battery for free under warranty on my 7 year old car, so I'm a happy customer. My wife has a regular car that's handy for road trips, but that's a once or twice a year kind of thing. They're definitely not for everyone yet but it's pretty close.

It's a pretty common reaction in my experience- I've almost never heard anyone say they regret going electric. If I were far into the country away from chargers, a hybrid would be a better option, but around here there's always a charger just a few minutes away, and they're very cheap.

[Lee DeRaud]

As to the OP's question- I bought a used Leaf several years ago and couldn't be happier switching. I've saved somewhere around $7000-$8000 in gas in just 3 years of ownership, and that includes the increase to my electric bill. My charger tracks how much power it uses, and so far my most expensive month was $39 worth of electricity.
I'm almost afraid to ask what you were driving before and how long your commute is, to save that kind of money. I only spent $2500 total on gas the last three years, and that's here in the Land of Pricey Fuel. Unless gas prices go up by 10X, I simply can't make an economic case for an EV. I have absolutely no objection to owning one if I could find one I liked that didn't cost a stupidly high number. Any payoff based on fuel savings is just too long compared to my remaining lifespan.

Someone noted earlier in this thread that EVs were a great match for retirees' driving habits. But how much of that simply reflects that we just don't drive as much day to day?

[Kevin Jenness]

At least the launch pad is still intact.

I don't think so. A good part of the pad ended up as grit pasted all over the nearest town and everything in between, and a sizeable chunk of concrete hit at least one motor vehicle some distance away. I think they will be reworking that part of the setup. https://dnyuz.com/2023/04/21/spacexs-starship-kicked-up-a-dust-cloud-leaving-texans-with-a-mess/

I wouldn't call the test a complete failure by any means but I had to laugh at the "rapid unscheduled disasssembly" - I guess that is a term of art in the aerospace field.

[Patty Hann]

... I only spent $2500 total on gas the last three years, and that's here in the Land of Pricey Fuel. Unless gas prices go up by 10X, I simply can't make an economic case for an EV. I have absolutely no objection to owning one if I could find one I liked that didn't cost a stupidly high number. Any payoff based on fuel savings is just too long compared to my remaining lifespan.....
↑ This ↑

(And I spent less than $1000 on gas last year)

[Bill Howatt]

Given that I keep my cars 12+ years, it seems I'd be needing a new battery along the way, so I'd better save a lot to cover that expense?
There were 2 cases on the Cdn news about battery costs - a Buick and a Kia which both needed a new battery just out of warranty. They were looking at about US$12K for battery and labor. Since it was not too far out of warranty they were given a discount on the battery (possibly after the media stepped in).
We're retired and our car fuel costs is less than $1000 per year. Also, we are rural, in a cold climate for about 4 months of the year so the range is still an issue. I think the posted ranges are on a nice, warm, battery-friendly day.
I am not naive enough to think the era of the electric car isn't launched but I do wonder about what is coming to take the shine off the bloom - electrical infrastructure improvement costs, lost government revenue from fuel taxes, possible overall increase to everybody's electrical bill to support the electric car users, somebody will state in no uncertain terms they are not totally pollution free if you factor in electricity production methods. It all boils down to, "you can't make an omelette without breaking an egg".

[Bill Dufour]

In my climate having the car ac run full blast at a stop lights or in a traffic jam is a big deal. Preheating the car not so much.
Bill D

[Patty Hann]

In my climate having the car ac run full blast at a stop lights or in a traffic jam is a big deal. Preheating the car not so much.
Bill D

Same situation where I am, but squared and cubed.
We can go two weeks straight with [max] daytime temps exceeding 110F and nighttime temps not dropping below 95.

[roger wiegand]

My last two gas cars cost $4000-8000 per year in maintenance once the warranties ran out, so thinking I might to buy a $12K battery in 8-10 years really isn't that intimidating. Granted one was a BMW, so twice what any sensible person would pay. There are getting to be quite a few 10 year old Model S Teslas on the road, at least here where there were a lot of early adopters, some with several hundred thousand miles on them and they seem to generally be behaving consistent with having many fewer moving parts, ie not much repair work required. I'm hoping they've gotten even better over the last decade.

As to "stupid expensive" a Tesla Model 3 ($39,990 today) now sells for $10K less than the average new car sold in the US ($49,388 in January), not counting the Federal tax break which makes it $17,500 cheaper than an average new car purchase. That's not saying those ICE cars aren't stupidly expensive as well.

[Bill Dufour]

I would say most expensive ice car repairs are engine, transmission, cooling, system, exhaust. electric cars have none of that to go bad.
Bill d

[Larry Frank]

Wow....I have never had a car with maintenance costs of $4000-8000 A year. My last vehicle was 15 years old and nothing close to that. A set of tires or major brake job was most expensive.

[Patty Hann]

I would say most expensive ice car repairs are engine, transmission, cooling, system, exhaust. electric cars have none of that to go bad.
Bill d
The cooling system maintenance would not go away with an EV would it?
You'd still have a compressor to deal with, and possibly leaks, would you not?
(Wouldn't it now be similar to your "plug-in" refrigerator? )

[Roger Feeley]

when ford announced their lightening pickup, they mentioned that they would be offering a gas generator that mounted in the bed. I thought that is a great idea. Leave the generator at home when you are just driving local. For long trips, load up the generator and off you go. Or…rent the generator when you need it.

[Bert McMahan]

I switched from an older truck to an EV, so I went from about 12 mpg to closer to 125 :)

A normal annual drive of 10k miles (pretty standard) that gets 30 mpg would need 333 gallons of gas a year. Around here, it's $3.50 on a good day, so that's $1167 in gas per year. I pay roughly $420 a year in extra electricity (plus no oil changes) so the savings isn't that huge if your car gets good mileage these days. If you're looking at the savings versus something that gets really good mileage then it's not going to work out, but if your daily driver is a 2004 full size truck then yeah you get to save a crapload of money :)

Plus, I bought my car before the prices absolutely went through the roof.

[Bill Dufour]

The cooling system maintenance would not go away with an EV would it?
You'd still have a compressor to deal with, and possibly leaks, would you not?
(Wouldn't it now be similar to your "plug-in" refrigerator? )
I meant radiator and water pump plus heater cores and valves to leak. Ac system would be similar but no pulley seals to fail. That may allow different refrigerants to be used?
Bill D

[Patty Hann]

I meant radiator and water pump plus heater cores and valves to leak. Ac system would be similar but no pulley seals to fail. That may allow different refrigerants to be used?
Bill D

Oh...right..that cooling system, Sorry...my bad.
Here in AZ low deserts when some says "cooling" I think of AC.

[roger wiegand]

Wow....I have never had a car with maintenance costs of $4000-8000 A year. My last vehicle was 15 years old and nothing close to that. A set of tires or major brake job was most expensive.

Poor choice of cars on my account I suppose. The last year I had my Mini it needed to have the engine disassembled to do some process for cleaning deposits off the valves that was causing it to throw an error code that wasn't going to pass inspection (about $2000), replace some piece of the fuel injection/ignition system that was about $1500 (over time I had to do three of four-- when they went out the car ran on only three cylinders), $800 for rear brakes, plus many hundred dollars of routine maintenance stuff. I had a repair estimate in hand for about $3200 of suspension-related repair when I traded it in (for about $3500). The worst was a couple years before when a piece of road debris went through the pan and ended up with bent piston rods and other major engine damage, that bill was about $5500. I've blocked the details of what all the BMW needed, but no visit to the mechanic was ever under $1000.

If i'd been sensible and bought a Corolla I could have avoided all that, but had a lot less fun. :)

[Alan Lightstone]

On my second Tesla Model S. Have solar house with a surplus, so essentially free charging for the last 9 years.

Once you own a fully electric car, and assuming that you have a charger at home, plus hopefully at work or on the route home, you realize that the range issue really doesn't exist anymore. You just do things differently.

Now, the infrastructure is clearly not presently setup for everyone to have one. That's just an insane concept now. Just think of an apartment building with 300 units, and if you're lucky 1-2 chargers. Until that problem gets addressed (and good luck with delivering that much electricity), the present laws are just pipedreams.

But as far as the oft-quoted range issue. That really is old news for the vast majority of users. My present Model S gets well over 300 miles of range per charge. And can be increased if I choose to charge rarely to 100%. Study after study shows that is well beyond most people's needs. And if I need to pull into a Supercharger (which I have never had to do with my new model), who cares.

Anyway, one long-term owner's $0.02

[Bill Howatt]

I think the other problem is that according to a Consumer Report's test of 4 vehicles the cold day range can drop to <70% of the warm day range. Their "cold day test" was 16F (-8C) which isn't what we call a genuine winter cold day here. 0F and considerably lower is more typical in the January-February months.

[Tom M King]

Most of my Scientist friends have EV's, and all love them.

[Bob Borzelleri]

We bought a ‘22 VW ID.4 last year. It replaced my wife’s Suburu Outback as her daily driver and as the “best car” she has ever driven.

It is AWD and it handled our recent snowfalls including going up/down our long and steep driveway with not so much as a wiggle.

I had a Ford Lightning on order until I read a real world test on its tow capability. Pulling 12,000 lbs. sounds good until you find out that pulling a 2,000 lb. camper resulted in fewer than 100 miles range. Clearly not ready for towing even light weight (5,000 lbs gross) campers.

Instead, I bought a ‘22 RAM 1500 eTorque 5.7L 4WD for pulling the camper. When someone builds a truck that can pull my camper 250-300 mils on a charge, I will sell the hemi and jump on a capable EV truck.

Having 17.6kw of solar at home makes the decision pretty easy.

[Bill Dufour]

I think the other problem is that according to a Consumer Report's test of 4 vehicles the cold day range can drop to <70% of the warm day range. Their "cold day test" was 16F (-8C) which isn't what we call a genuine winter cold day here. 0F and considerably lower is more typical in the January-February months.

About 50% of new cars sold in Norway are Tesla's. So I assume they have it figured out. It also has to do with lots of hydropower and some government policies.
BILL D.

[Bill Dufour]

Caterpillar makes huge Diesel electric mining trucks. They have an option of a double catenary hook up for more power on up hill portions. Just like an electric buss using two overhead wires.
Bill D.

https://caterpillar.scene7.com/is/content/Caterpillar/CM20200930-dba70-c067f

[Lee DeRaud]

Poor choice of cars on my account I suppose. The last year I had my Mini it needed to have the engine disassembled to do some process for cleaning deposits off the valves that was causing it to throw an error code that wasn't going to pass inspection (about $2000), replace some piece of the fuel injection/ignition system that was about $1500 (over time I had to do three of four-- when they went out the car ran on only three cylinders), $800 for rear brakes, plus many hundred dollars of routine maintenance stuff. I had a repair estimate in hand for about $3200 of suspension-related repair when I traded it in (for about $3500). The worst was a couple years before when a piece of road debris went through the pan and ended up with bent piston rods and other major engine damage, that bill was about $5500. I've blocked the details of what all the BMW needed, but no visit to the mechanic was ever under $1000.

If i'd been sensible and bought a Corolla I could have avoided all that, but had a lot less fun. :)
Ah. As a sanity check, my total is just a tick under $3000 since October 2015...2016 Honda Accord 4D. Yes, less fun than a Mini, but more than you'd expect given V6 and wider than stock tires. (My previous two cars were a 2004 Corvette and a 2000 Boxster S, so I do know a bit about both fun and inflated service prices.)

The valve-deposit thing struck my eye. It's the downside of direct injection, and I suspect it's starting to bite people in the wallet as more cars use it. I doubt the gas savings of such a system come anywhere close to covering the price of a cylinder-head rebuild.

[Bill Howatt]

About 50% of new cars sold in Norway are Tesla's. So I assume they have it figured out. It also has to do with lots of hydropower and some government policies.
BILL D.

I should have been more specific since my concern is about range because I'm rural. The max warm temperature range of most EVs is what I need for a return trip to the big city closest to me. In the colder weather I couldn't do it without a recharge - big deal? Maybe, maybe not depending on my reasons for the trip.
I also think that one needs to be careful comparing European driving distances and habits with N.A.
Maybe EV drivers are going to gain a lot of weight since they are probably eating doughnuts and burgers each time they wait for the car to recharge :). I notice our local doughnut shop has a charger.

[Greg Funk]

I think the other problem is that according to a Consumer Report's test of 4 vehicles the cold day range can drop to <70% of the warm day range. Their "cold day test" was 16F (-8C) which isn't what we call a genuine winter cold day here. 0F and considerably lower is more typical in the January-February months.The range certainly goes down in the winter but most EVs still have way more range than needed for daily commutes. I only use about 25-30% of the battery on a typical day so if the capacity was reduced by 30% it wouldn't make a difference. I have a Tesla and I don't typically use it for long trips.

[scott lipscomb]

when ford announced their lightening pickup, they mentioned that they would be offering a gas generator that mounted in the bed. I thought that is a great idea. Leave the generator at home when you are just driving local. For long trips, load up the generator and off you go. Or…rent the generator when you need it.

I heard that-anyone know what happened to this idea?

[Doug Garson]

Now, the infrastructure is clearly not presently setup for everyone to have one. That's just an insane concept now. Just think of an apartment building with 300 units, and if you're lucky 1-2 chargers. Until that problem gets addressed (and good luck with delivering that much electricity), the present laws are just pipedreams.
I agree upgrading the infrastructure is a big challenge, but what "present laws" are you referring to?

[Alan Lightstone]

I agree upgrading the infrastructure is a big challenge, but what "present laws" are you referring to?
The push by the present administration to essentially have mostly/all electric cars by some future date. The infrastructure challenge is huge in making this happen, and I'm really not sure how getting multiple electric car owners in an apartment complex to have their cars conveniently charged (or charged at all) can happen. To me, this is an insurmountable challenge that just isn't being discussed. The current requirements to have, lets say, 100 cars charging at the same time would be (if my math is remotely correct) approximately 0.96 MW. And that's for each moderately sized apartment building. How is this remotely possible? For single homeowners, charging infrastructure is easy, and really not very expensive to implement. But for more dense housing???

[Alex Zeller]

I'm waiting to see what 2024 brings. With so few cars getting the rebate I expect most brands to start making more batteries and EVs in the US. I'm hoping something like the next gen Rav4 plug in hybrid has more range. If it could get 100 miles on the battery before needing the engine to kick in I think I would be very temped.

[Doug Garson]

The push by the present administration to essentially have mostly/all electric cars by some future date. The infrastructure challenge is huge in making this happen, and I'm really not sure how getting multiple electric car owners in an apartment complex to have their cars conveniently charged (or charged at all) can happen. To me, this is an insurmountable challenge that just isn't being discussed. The current requirements to have, lets say, 100 cars charging at the same time would be (if my math is remotely correct) approximately 0.96 MW. And that's for each moderately sized apartment building. How is this remotely possible? For single homeowners, charging infrastructure is easy, and really not very expensive to implement. But for more dense housing???
Definitely a challenge but what's the alternative? Keep pumping CO2 into the atmosphere at current rates?
Average miles driven in the US per year is about 13,500 miles, average range of a 2021 EV is about 217 miles so, on average each car gets charged about 62 times a year or just over once a week. Those are based on 2021 numbers, battery technology is constantly improving and by 2025 most EVs will have a range closer to 600 miles which would require charging less than twice a month. Any laws I've seen call for a gradual phase out of the sale of ICE vehicles over several decades, many ICE vehicles will still be on the road for decades after that. Think of it as a challenge rather than throwing up your hands and suggesting it is impossible.

[roger wiegand]

Standard Oil opened the first drive-through filling station in 1912, by 1920 there was a nationwide network of paved roads and filling stations were ubiquitous. During that decade an entire oil extraction, gasoline refining, and distribution industry was created to serve the needs of gasoline cars. Somehow I have confidence that if there is money to be made businesses will respond to fill the gaps in the current electrical infrastructure, faster than any of us can imagine. There will surely be bumps along the way, just as a cross country road trip was a heroic adventure with spotty availability of fuel, tires, and repair facilities in 1915. I wouldn't underestimate the ability of entrepreneurs to come up with new models of local generation and small scale storage to address a significant fraction of the need without massive infrastructure projects. Even today, we'd just need to add one car size battery (in terns of kW, not physical size) to our existing house system to be able to keep our car going for local trips with no draw on the power network at all. I don't know exactly what it will look like, but my bet is against more and bigger of the same as what we've done for the last century.

My wife will tell you I'm an eternal optimist.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Thanks Lawrence. I will do the same to avoid a derailment.

[Larry Frank]

The infrastructure requirement for EVs is very great and one that needs addressing. However, it seems there are no plans on how to get enough electricity, distribute it and build chargers. It seems like there is just this mandate for EV without addressing the underlying issues.

[Bill Dufour]

I heard that-anyone know what happened to this idea?
The Ford pickup has only a five foot bed. The generator and fuel tank takes up two feet leaving a three foot bed. Probably unsafe to pack too much up against the hot generator. At that point just get a BEV station wagon, sorry SUV. No one calls them a station wagon or hatchback anymore. SUV is more modern and high tech.
Bill D

[Greg Funk]

The push by the present administration to essentially have mostly/all electric cars by some future date. The infrastructure challenge is huge in making this happen, and I'm really not sure how getting multiple electric car owners in an apartment complex to have their cars conveniently charged (or charged at all) can happen. To me, this is an insurmountable challenge that just isn't being discussed. The current requirements to have, lets say, 100 cars charging at the same time would be (if my math is remotely correct) approximately 0.96 MW. And that's for each moderately sized apartment building. How is this remotely possible? For single homeowners, charging infrastructure is easy, and really not very expensive to implement. But for more dense housing???It doesn't have to happen overnight as even when a high percentage of new cars are EVs there will still be a large number of ICE vehicles for the next 20-30 years. Around Vancouver all new Multi-Unit residential building have been required to have 100% of parking stalls equipped for level 2 EV charging since 2018. Commercial buildings are also required to have a reasonable % of stalls equipped for charging. Eventually, as more people adopt EVs, they will force their building stratas to install charging support. it will happen first in areas with more expensive real estate and trickle down to other areas over time.

[Dwayne Watt]

A major part of the electric infrastructure improvements will come (and are being built) in the form of wind and solar farms. Before anyone chimes in that the wind doesn't always blow and it is dark 50% of the time, these problems are being resolved with large quantity energy storage solutions (think BIG batteries or super capacitor arrays) to collect and store excess energy production. That said, living in what is referred as a flyover state, I am not ready to adopt pure EV. Distances are too great for successful use (work commutes, yes...serious local, rural travel not so much). Folks in plains states routinely travel distances that coastal folks in urban areas cannot fathom. PHEVs are the solution in my part of the world for the foreseeable future. If I were in the market for a new vehicle, PHEV would be high on the shopping list for me. My last couple of purchases came close but the costs were not right for the type of vehicle I desired.

[Alan Lightstone]

It doesn't have to happen overnight as even when a high percentage of new cars are EVs there will still be a large number of ICE vehicles for the next 20-30 years. Around Vancouver all new Multi-Unit residential building have been required to have 100% of parking stalls equipped for level 2 EV charging since 2018. Commercial buildings are also required to have a reasonable % of stalls equipped for charging. Eventually, as more people adopt EVs, they will force their building stratas to install charging support. it will happen first in areas with more expensive real estate and trickle down to other areas over time.
Fascinating. I was just reading through the Vancouver laws regarding this. I've heard nothing suggested about this in the US. If you ever get a chance, I'd love to see a picture posted of one of these garage parking spaces with multiple Level 2 EV charging stations.

It looks like existing buildings will have to comply only by 2030. And Vancouver/BC seems to be way ahead of the curve on this, but kudos to BC.

Don't get me wrong. I'd love to see this. I am a believer. I have a fully solar house and electric car. But I don't think I'll see this fully integrated in the US in my lifetime, much less China and India, to name a few.

[Allan Dozier]

I read somewhere that Walmart will be installing charging stations of their own at each of their centers. I have used Electrify America chargers at Walmart a couple of times but these new ones will be owned by Walmart. I hope that as more businesses see the need and the possibility of a new profit center that they will proliferate. If they don't it still won't effect me much since I will continue to charge 95% of the time with level 2 chargers at my two homes.

[Jim Becker]

Alan, I think that there will be a growing uptick in "private label" charging with businesses including retail because it can be yet another revenue stream. Just like gas station owners don't make a lot "per gallon", the same will likely be true "per kw" for folks setting up charging stations as a profit center. But with volume over time, things should work out. What you will not see a lot of is as rapid a growth of installations of DC fast charging en masse because the entry cost for that is substantially more than for AC L2 chargers.

[Greg Funk]

Fascinating. I was just reading through the Vancouver laws regarding this. I've heard nothing suggested about this in the US. If you ever get a chance, I'd love to see a picture posted of one of these garage parking spaces with multiple Level 2 EV charging stations.

It looks like existing buildings will have to comply only by 2030. And Vancouver/BC seems to be way ahead of the curve on this, but kudos to BC.

Don't get me wrong. I'd love to see this. I am a believer. I have a fully solar house and electric car. But I don't think I'll see this fully integrated in the US in my lifetime, much less China and India, to name a few.To be fair most new condos in Vancouver are well over $1000/sq ft so the incremental cost of adding a charger outlet is relatively low. There are a few pictures here of some typical installations: https://veva.ca/EV-Ready
The province of BC also offers fairly generous rebates to condo stratas for adding charger support.

[Mike Henderson]

The push by the present administration to essentially have mostly/all electric cars by some future date. The infrastructure challenge is huge in making this happen, and I'm really not sure how getting multiple electric car owners in an apartment complex to have their cars conveniently charged (or charged at all) can happen. To me, this is an insurmountable challenge that just isn't being discussed. The current requirements to have, lets say, 100 cars charging at the same time would be (if my math is remotely correct) approximately 0.96 MW. And that's for each moderately sized apartment building. How is this remotely possible? For single homeowners, charging infrastructure is easy, and really not very expensive to implement. But for more dense housing???

A large building, like an apartment complex, would likely be served by a 44kV circuit (with transformers to drop the voltage to 120/240 for household use). 1 MW at 44kV is about 23 amps. Shouldn't be a problem.

Mike

[Even if it was served by a 4.4kV circuit, it would only be 230 amps.]

[Edwin Santos]

Fascinating. I was just reading through the Vancouver laws regarding this. I've heard nothing suggested about this in the US. If you ever get a chance, I'd love to see a picture posted of one of these garage parking spaces with multiple Level 2 EV charging stations.

It looks like existing buildings will have to comply only by 2030. And Vancouver/BC seems to be way ahead of the curve on this, but kudos to BC.

Don't get me wrong. I'd love to see this. I am a believer. I have a fully solar house and electric car. But I don't think I'll see this fully integrated in the US in my lifetime, much less China and India, to name a few.

That's brilliant. Otherwise, what's a resident with an EV going to do? Rely on offsite charging? That would get old fast.
I assume they have some login process where the system knows what resident is using the charger so the power will be charged to them. And if the parking garage is open to charging visitors, then there's an income stream for the building too.

[Greg Funk]

That's brilliant. Otherwise, what's a resident with an EV going to do? Rely on offsite charging? That would get old fast.
I assume they have some login process where the system knows what resident is using the charger so the power will be charged to them. And if the parking garage is open to charging visitors, then there's an income stream for the building too.I think they're administered by a charging company for a monthly fee. Not as convenient or inexpensive as charging in a detached home but it's manageable.

[roger wiegand]

An interesting recent advance is that Tesla has started deploying prefab modular superchargers (fast DC chargers). They come as four chargers and the associated electrical equipment on a truck. You crane it in place, connect to the power supply and you're up and running. Minimal site prep and all the complex assembly and testing is done in factory rather than field conditions. It's the kind of thing that will make it easy for smaller locations, like existing gas stations, to easily add charging capability. Buying power for 20 cents a kwh and selling it for 50 probably yields more profit than the equivalent amount of gas, though competition will emerge over time.

[Edwin Santos]

I think they're administered by a charging company for a monthly fee. Not as convenient or inexpensive as charging in a detached home but it's manageable.

I rented a Tesla on a recent trip to Vancouver. I went to the Tesla supercharger in CF Pacific Centre's parking garage to top off the rental before returning it. The charge cost me about $8.00 CAD and the parking fee was $9.50. I can see why the building was only too happy to set up the charging area.

[Bill Howatt]

I rented a Tesla on a recent trip to Vancouver. I went to the Tesla supercharger in CF Pacific Centre's parking garage to top off the rental before returning it. The charge cost me about $8.00 CAD and the parking fee was $9.50. I can see why the building was only too happy to set up the charging area.

Parking fees seem to be a good reason for me to start working on my "Drive-By" or is it "Drive-Buy" charger. :)

[Alan Lightstone]

Buying power for 20 cents a kwh and selling it for 50 probably yields more profit than the equivalent amount of gas, though competition will emerge over time.

Boy, that's expensive. Our rates just went up to $0.156/kWh (albeit residential). It used to cost me essentially $0.0325/kWh at home (decreases my surplus). Now it's essentially costing me $0.066/kWh. But $0.50/kWh. Ouch.

[Edward Weber]

The cars and infrastructure are easy problems to solved compared to getting people to change their habits.
20 years from now people will have a daily routine for driving, it will most likely be a little different but folks will go about it without a thought, until hover cars come out and the complaining starts all over again.

[Greg Funk]

I rented a Tesla on a recent trip to Vancouver. I went to the Tesla supercharger in CF Pacific Centre's parking garage to top off the rental before returning it. The charge cost me about $8.00 CAD and the parking fee was $9.50. I can see why the building was only too happy to set up the charging area.Where did you rent from? I rented a car in Toronto recently at the airport (National) and they gave me a Polestar EV but didn't need it charged when I brought it back. Just curious what the normal practice is from someone like Hertz who have a lot of Tesla's for rent.

[Lee DeRaud]

The cars and infrastructure are easy problems to solved compared to getting people to change their habits.
20 years from now people will have a daily routine for driving, it will most likely be a little different but folks will go about it without a thought, until hover cars come out and the complaining starts all over again.
Another wrinkle has to do with actual parking spaces. There are already proposals in various chunks of California to transition from requiring X spaces (either on a per-tenant or square footage basis) to actively limiting the number, especially in urban areas. The theory is to force people out of cars altogether rather than just encouraging EVs.

[Perry Hilbert Jr]

Fast charge batteries are already on the market in ev's. New tech batteries developed no longer depend on lithium or dangerous chemicals. Solar roof and body panels are cutting dependency on charging. For the here and now, EV's still have limitations to over come. % years from now, I don't know that the limitations will be the same, or even be a problem. My daughter's boy friend got an electric motorcycle. more of a kid's toy, but a range of 30 miles at 27 mph in amazing for such a little thing. Daughter (not a small girl)was popping extended wheelies down the driveway with it. They go for weekends to a small resort island where such things are street legal. The same company makes a two passenger ev that does 18 mph up to 35 miles range and it has a roof, windows, doors, stereo etc. (only $7K) I understand the new Suburu ev can do an 80% charge in 15 minutes. Frankly if it will go 250 miles and a 15 minute stop, that about matches the way I travel in a gasoline car anyway. Drive 4 or 5 hours, and get out for a cold drink, and rest stop.

My step son's buddy drives a plug in hybrid. Good for about 70 miles before the engine needs to kick on. His commute to work is just under 15 miles each way, he plugs into a standard 120 volt line every night. He has gone 8 to 10 weeks between fill ups. He does not have to stop for any charge ups, but says $1.50 worth of electricity every night saves him 1 galloon of gas every day, which currently costs $3.65 here. .

[Malcolm McLeod]

The cars and infrastructure are easy problems to solved compared to getting people to change their habits.
20 years from now people will have a daily routine for driving, it will most likely be a little different but folks will go about it without a thought, until hover cars come out and the complaining starts all over again.

Perhaps many are under-thinking or under-understanding(?) the nature and scale of the required infrastructure... And my money says the dream will require nuclear.

Several have opined that a 20-minute stop to re-charge fits their lifestyle / travel needs anyway, but what will they say when there are 18 cars in the queue ahead, or all 18 are already charging and the utility (etc) has to curtail charge speeds since the power plant(s) can't provide it all. Might give a whole new meaning to 'Thanksgiving Day travel'?

Recent from the NRC...


...
The NRC accepted NuScale’s SMR design certification application in March 2017. The 12,000-page application took less than 42 months to review and included more than 2 million pages of additional documents for regulatory audits.

The final safety evaluation report issued by the NRC is the first of its kind for a SMR and represents the technical review and NRC staff’s approval of the NuScale SMR design.

The NuScale Power Module is an advanced light-water small modular reactor capable of generating 60 megawatts of electricity. Each power plant can house up to 12 modules, which will be factory-built and about a third of the size of a large-scale reactor. Its unique design allows the reactor to passively cool itself (https://www.energy.gov/ne/articles/what-should-i-do-if-small-modular-reactor-loses-site-power) without any need for additional water, power or even operator action.
....


This just for the design; wonder how long to construct? And someone has to pay someone to read all those pages. Before someone gets paid to stick a shovel in the ground. "Organist, play us some check writin' music!!"

(A link for the pessimists: https://www.energy.gov/ne/articles/nrc-approves-first-us-small-modular-reactor-design)

My company is actually looking at SMRs for our own infrastructure. Utilities can't keep up already.

[Edward Weber]

IMO, some of the technology is already here, just not available to the masses yet.
Look at where electric cars and solar were 20 years ago. Things change and when they do, it's usually pretty fast.
There is no end to the design ideas for infrastructure improvements. Everything from putting charging pads at intersections (charge at the red light) and putting more solar in unused land, between divided highways and so on.
It will be years before there are enough users of EVs that it will actually have an effect on the grid. By then, who knows where battery technology will be as it continues to improve.
It's not all doom and gloom and it's also not a bed of roses.
Changes will come

[Alan Rutherford]

Let's not limit our focus. Why shouldn't I be able to tell my self-driving EV to find a public charging spot tonight and fill up? And don't be out late and try to be quiet closing the garage door.

[Malcolm McLeod]

IMO, some of the technology is already here, just not available to the masses yet.
Look at where electric cars and solar were 20 years ago. Things change and when they do, it's usually pretty fast.
There is no end to the design ideas for infrastructure improvements. Everything from putting charging pads at intersections (charge at the red light) and putting more solar in unused land, between divided highways and so on.
It will be years before there are enough users of EVs that it will actually have an effect on the grid. By then, who knows where battery technology will be as it continues to improve.
It's not all doom and gloom and it's also not a bed of roses.
Changes will come

Generation? Power MUST come from somewhere. The most reliable estimates I've seen say that to meet the EV loads, we need to increase USA generating capacity by ~4X. No matter the source/fuel mix. Gas/coal fired are out. Renewables all suffer from intermittency, so that leaves hydro or nuclear. Nuclear will be fought tooth and nail by virtually everyone; hydro by Greens, even if you can find another river & valley suitable for a dam with no ruby-throated snailhummingdarterfishworms. ...Let's assume 10-12 years for any power plant, no matter the fuel.

And then figure the unique 'nuclear' time, assuming you could force acceptance. NuScale probably spent 5-10yrs in system design, then 42mos to get 'design' approval, then more time for site approval. Now the Idaho (IIRC) remote test install site is expected to be online in 2029. Optimistically, 15yrs from idea to power. Will anyone want an SMR in the basement of their children's apartment complex? Clearly, no one has wanted a conventional reactor design anywhere in the US, in what ... 40yrs?

TX leads the US is wind generation by a considerable margin (we exceed the next 3 states combined), and I pass 1 or 2 sets of new turbine blades on I-20 every week. Saturday, just in TX, I drove from Texline to Midland, and counted 8 new turbines under construction. And that skipped the true wind corridor around Sweetwater. Yet we aren't even close to using wind exclusively. But soon...?

PV? There is a 3-4000 acre solar farm about 40miles from my current location. Please drive by and decide if you want one in your backyard. But acceptance will come. With time.

Storage of solar & wind? Lots of power-points and slick YT videos for grid-scale power storage. Rarely has one even been prototyped, let alone commercialized, but they are 'just around the corner'. Batteries? Only need a couple more eleventy-seven-mile wide open pit mines. It all just takes a bit more time?

Or PVs on your roof? What's that cost...I got a couple of quotes and EVs + roof top solar would run somewhere around $140k-$150k for my family, after your share of my rebate gets paid. Maybe y'all have more money than me?

But the EV deadline has been issued. And not only is that time passing, the heretics are daily informed that the doom clock is ticking. No matter that an EV has a higher CO2 footprint than ICE automobile when delivered. And if home (PV) charged the CO2-breakeven is 80K-100k miles; if grid-charged, then breakeven is ~400k miles. Everybody puts 400k miles on their cars, right? Just takes time.

EVs make great sense on a number of fronts, and certainly change is coming (always has been for humans), but be careful what you wi$h on your$elf and your children.

And I've said enough; don't need any more threats, so I'll just watch now. And buy an EV when it makes sense.

[roger wiegand]

Or PVs on your roof? What's that cost...I got a couple of quotes and EVs + roof top solar would run somewhere around $140k-$150k for my family, after your share of my rebate gets paid. Maybe y'all have more money than me?


We put enough PV on our house to meet about half of our needs 9 years ago, they fully paid for themselves in 7-1/2 years, it would have taken 15 without the renewable energy credits. They should last 25-30 years at least. We got no tax break thanks to the AMT. Panels are a lot cheaper now than they were then. I'm sorry we didn't install more at the time, now it's hard to find someone who will do an add-on system. We may just install an independent second set of panels with a battery to pretty much free us from the grid. Those panels have done much better than my IRA over the same period of time, I'm not sure I see the financial barrier as so insurmountable, at least for those of us who have assets that can be invested.

$150K should buy you a 35 to 45 kW system with no tax rebate, 50-60 kW with the rebate. A median US house requires around 10 kW to go off-grid, so you're a bit of an outlier with a demand ~5X that.

I should note that our electric rates are astronomical (34 cents/ kWh recently), which helps explains our relatively quick payback.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

We have 22 solar panels on the shop and want an EV to help us use up our excess KW. Our solar credit gets zeroed out every March. A Nissan Leaf or Smart For Two EV would do for most of our needs. Getting an EV is something we look forward to.

[Larry Frank]

California is an interesting state with their EV mandate. However, they are nowhere near getting it done. I have read estimates that they will need somewhere like 35% more electric power to meet their mandate. To carry this power, they will need vastly improved transmission system

Consider the following...

California imports 35% of their electricity and still have lack of power issues.

50% of their instate power generation is natural gas, 6% hydro and 8% nuclear. The rest is renewable.

They need a tremendous amount of building to meet the mandates and where are the plans and the money. Just making a mandate for EV without a realistic plan is insanity.

Do not get me wrong, helping the climate is A good thing but we need to be realistic about how to get there.

[Doug Garson]

an EV has a higher CO2 footprint than ICE automobile when delivered. And if home (PV) charged the CO2-breakeven is 80K-100k miles; if grid-charged, then breakeven is ~400k miles. Everybody puts 400k miles on their cars, right? Just takes time.
Mind quoting a source for your data? Here's a source that contradicts your data. https://blog.greenenergyconsumers.org/blog/lifecycle-emissions-of-electric-cars-vs.-gasoline#:~:text=Break%2DEven%20Point%20in%20Emiss ions&text=According%20to%20the%20graph%20below,points%2 0with%20their%20gas%20counterparts.
"an electric car and electric truck would need to drive 21,300 miles and 17,500 miles respectively to reach the break-even points with their gas counterparts. Considering most vehicles are driven 200,000 miles in their lifetime, that means the break-even point arrives after 1.5-2 years of driving. But again, this is predicated on the national average of vehicles TODAY.

And another https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/when-do-electric-vehicles-become-cleaner-than-gasoline-cars-2021-06-29/
"DETROIT, June 29 (Reuters) - You glide silently out of the Tesla (TSLA.O) (https://www.reuters.com/companies/TSLA.O) showroom in your sleek new electric Model 3 (https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportation/bidens-ev-charging-push-boosts-established-automakers-taking-tesla-2021-06-25/), satisfied you're looking great and doing your bit for the planet.But keep going - you'll have to drive another 13,500 miles (21,725 km) before you're doing less harm to the environment than a gas-guzzling saloon."
And another https://www.politifact.com/article/2022/dec/06/carbon-dioxide-released-during-production-electric/
A 2022 report from the Union of Concerned Scientists (https://www.ucsusa.org/sites/default/files/2022-09/driving-cleaner-report.pdf) estimated the "zero emissions" break-even point is 21,300 miles for an electric vehicle. Another researcher, Damien Ernst at the University of Liege in Belgium, suggested the EV break-even number was between 42,000 and 94,000 miles (http://blogs.ulg.ac.be/damien-ernst/electric-697612-km-to-become-green-true-or-false/).

Where does your 400K estimate come from?

[Edward Weber]

Quick Facts

In 2022, California was the seventh-largest producer of crude oil among the 50 states, and, as of January 2022, the state ranked third in crude oil refining capacity.
California is the largest consumer of jet fuel and second-largest consumer of motor gasoline among the 50 states.
In 2020, California was the second-largest total energy consumer among the states, but its per capita energy consumption was less than in all but three other states.
In 2022, renewable resources, including hydroelectric power and small-scale, customer-sited solar power, accounted for 49% of California's in-state electricity generation. Natural gas fueled another 42%. Nuclear power supplied almost all the rest.
In 2022, California was the fourth-largest electricity producer in the nation. The state was also the nation’s third-largest electricity consumer, and additional needed electricity supplies came from out-of-state generators.

Last Updated: April 20, 2023
https://www.eia.gov/state/?sid=CA

Dont get me wrong, our grid needs upgrades like any other state that has an aging infrastructure and increased demands for power but EVs are a only small percentage of power used and not the main cause of the issue.

[Malcolm McLeod]

…
$150K should buy …. A median US house requires around 10 kW to go off-grid, so you're a bit of an outlier with a demand ~5X that.
…

Please re-read what I wrote.

[Alan Lightstone]

Quick Facts


second-largest consumer of motor gasoline among the 50 states.



Who's the first?

[Malcolm McLeod]

…

Where does your 400K estimate come from?

I am capable of the math required. Please re-read what I wrote.

[Doug Garson]

I am capable of the math required. Please re-read what I wrote.
OK, show us your math, source of data, assumptions etc. I can read, you made statements with no backup I'm giving you the opportunity to show you are capable of doing the math.

[Malcolm McLeod]

OK, show us your math, source of data, assumptions etc. I can read, you made statements with no backup I'm giving you the opportunity to show you are capable of doing the math.

I seem to recall you are capable as well. Please do a peer review. Tell me what you get. No need to post the equations; I’ll trust you.

[Doug Garson]

I seem to recall you are capable as well. Please do a peer review. Tell me what you get. No need to post the equations; I’ll trust you.
Translation, you made it up and got called out for it. Peer review what? An unsupported statement with no data, no sources, no assumptions or calculations.

[Lee DeRaud]

Who's the first?
Texas: lots of people, lots of cheap gas, spread out over a huge area.

[Malcolm McLeod]

Translation, you made it up and got called out for it. Peer review what? An unsupported statement with no data, no sources, no assumptions or calculations.

I recall you are/were in the energy business, as am I. Please believe what you wish.

[Tom M King]

It’s not about beliefs. The truth is not a choice.

[Dave Zellers]

Well that escalated quickly.

[Malcolm McLeod]

ItÂ’s not about beliefs. The truth is not a choice.

So is Mr. Garson’s statement about me a belief, a truth, or a choice? Regardless, he is welcome to it.

[Larry Frank]

So many websites, claiming so many things. Personally, I have some difficulty believing a blog by green energy consumers or Politifact. It is difficult to believe anything published by the media.

[roger wiegand]

Please re-read what I wrote.

OK, I did. Where did I go wrong?

[Malcolm McLeod]

OK, I did. Where did I go wrong?

Going into all day mtg, so can’t do this justice, but please note there was a plus sign in my post and your proof-text.

…think it’s called “confirmation bias”? (Happens to me too)