Joining 3/4” face frame rails and stiles

[Dave Rosner]

I’m building a bench with shoe storage underneath and to maximize space the design calls for mostly 3/4” rails and stiles. The main side stiles and top rail is thicker (1 1/2”). I thought I could use the smallest domino but I would need to center it perfectly for it to fit and even then it takes up most the width of the stile.

Would pocket screws be better and if so what size for something this small? I don’t have dowel jig and I really think all these center pieces need to be joined somehow

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[Zachary Hoyt]

When I have crossing 3/4" face frame members like that I like to do a lap joint, where half of the back of one piece is cut away, and half of the front of the other one. This may not be the best way but it seems to be good enough and is easy to execute.

[Dave Rosner]

When I have crossing 3/4" face frame members like that I like to do a lap joint, where half of the back of one piece is cut away, and half of the front of the other one. This may not be the best way but it seems to be good enough and is easy to execute.


that’s a great idea…at least for the horizontal to vertical pieces where it’s 3/4” to 3/4”.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

If you have a router table there is a neat & fairly easy way to mortis and tennon 3/4. I have been needing to set mine back up. Creating a face frame for an 8 foot cabinet with two drawer stacks and two door/drawer combinations gets a little tricky. We used dowles a long time ago. Mortis and tenon was a big improvement. I was in elementary school when dad started me on making face frames.
Ep 4: Router Table Fundamentals - Mortises - FineWoodworking (https://www.finewoodworking.com/2018/09/24/ep-4-router-table-fundamentals-mortises)
Ep 5: Router Table Fundamentals - Tenons - FineWoodworking (https://www.finewoodworking.com/2018/10/01/ep-5-router-table-fundamentals-tenons)
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09-18-2022 11:31 AM \ IMG_0710.jpg

[John Kananis]

You can always make the carcass shallower and make the face frames "thicker" than 3/4". You'll be able to use your Domino that way, just install the floating tenon perpendicular to the way you intended.

[Jim Becker]

I generally apply pieces like that individually like they are just thick edge banding, but the half-laps mentioned would be a good idea for any joinery that is "suspended" without structure behind it.

[Lee Schierer]

When I have crossing 3/4" face frame members like that I like to do a lap joint, where half of the back of one piece is cut away, and half of the front of the other one. This may not be the best way but it seems to be good enough and is easy to execute.

This is what I would do. I tend to use lap joints on all my face frames.

[Jamie Buxton]

You’d need to put two pocket screws into each joint to prevent one of the pieces from rotating. The standard bit for boring a pocket screw hole is 3/8” diameter. That is, you can’t put two side-by-side on a piece of wood which is 3/4” wide.

[Larry Frank]

I make face frames with pocket screws with two screws in each joint.

[Kevin Jenness]

You can use pocket screws by offsetting them enough that they don't run into each other. If you can get two screws into a joint it's better, but not possible with 3/4" x 3/4" material. Half laps are a good solution but more setup.

[George Yetka]

+1 on Mr Beckers technique. You could also domino into the carcass and back of face frame.

[glenn bradley]

I favor the lap joint if they are structural or will be subjected to stress. Applique like edge trim if not. My current project had a similar requirement and I used a small floating tenon. Here's the tenon in a piece of test scrap.
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Which gives me this joint.

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[Rich Engelhardt]

If you have a router table there is a neat & fairly easy way to mortis and tennon 3/4. I have been needing to set mine back up. Creating a face frame for an 8 foot cabinet with two drawer stacks and two door/drawer combinations gets a little tricky. We used dowles a long time ago. Mortis and tenon was a big improvement. I was in elementary school when dad started me on making face frames.
Ep 4: Router Table Fundamentals - Mortises - FineWoodworking (https://www.finewoodworking.com/2018/09/24/ep-4-router-table-fundamentals-mortises)
Ep 5: Router Table Fundamentals - Tenons - FineWoodworking (https://www.finewoodworking.com/2018/10/01/ep-5-router-table-fundamentals-tenons)
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09-18-2022 11:31 AM \ IMG_0710.jpgThe links need a subscription in order to view the videos.

[Bill Dufour]

I would make it like a stile and rail window frame for more glue area and to keep it aligned before clamping. A simple round over not a fancy ogee profile. If you are concerned add a glue block behind the mullions running vertical.
Fill the unused portion of the glass groove with a contrasting wood
Bill D

[Maurice Mcmurry]

The links need a subscription in order to view the videos.

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Whoops, Thanks for the heads up. Here is a free version that is similar. My rig is homemade and much simpler.


https://youtu.be/dzjWfHJm5kc

[Jeff Roltgen]

I've used pocket screws on 3/4"x3/4 face frame pieces for decades. A single screw is all you need for the 3/4x 3/4 pieces - just be sure to put a small amount of wood glue at the joint = no rotation within a few minutes. They hold together just fine for sanding, finishing, and fastening to cabinets.
I do like the lap joint idea as well.

jeff

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Another neat advantage of the twin router table mortis and tenon rig is that with a 1/4 inch dado in the table saw it works for doors too. When I have the need for face frames and doors I have my good version of the two routers and a small table saw dedicated to a 1/4 inch dado set up and ready go.

[Rod Sheridan]

I make them mortice and tenon with 1/2” X 1/4” tenons…..Regards, Rod

[Jim Dwight]

The OP is right, the 4mm domino is 20mm wide. Too wide for a 3/4 inch piece. So I would put in a pocket screw. It is quicker than a domino joint and adequately strong if the resulting pieces are just edging. One will work as long and you use a dab of glue like has already been suggested and are careful not to rotate the joint until the glue has set. Or just join the edging to the case before the glue sets up on the pocket screw joints. That will also prevent rotation. I do not see the joint rotating as a big risk. You can also do a simple dowel joint using dowel centers. No fancy jig required. But you only have space for one dowel and you will need to clamp the joint. The pocket screw eliminates the need to clamp.

[Dave Zellers]

Am I missing something here? Doesn't every face frame piece butt up to vertical and horizontal shelf dividers? If so, this is the perfect application of a biscuit joiner.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Am I missing something here? Doesn't every face frame piece butt up to vertical and horizontal shelf dividers? If so, this is the perfect application of a biscuit joiner.

A drawer stack, A door and drawer combo, and a pair of doors often have nothing behind the style or rail. I tried the biscuit joiner for some very simple face frames and it is OK. Doing a complicated face frame with biscuits is very challenging. The twin router face frames are no fun to route but the assembly is satisfying.

[Dave Zellers]

Yes but this project is a set of holes for shoes. There is a backer for every face frame piece.

[Dave Zellers]

It is also 3/4 X 3/4 which is too small even for the smallest mini biscuit.

Not at all. Even a #20 would fit but I would use a #10. Just tossing it out there as an option. There is no need for the face frame on this project to have independent integrity. Attach the pieces to the carcass.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Oh yah Its always good to start at the beginning. It is also 3/4 X 3/4 which is too small even for the smallest mini biscuit.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Not at all. Even a #20 would fit but I would use a #10. Just tossing it out there as an option. There is no need for the face frame on this project to have independent integrity. Attach the pieces to the carcass.

It would not be blind and you would have to trim away the biscuit.

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[Dave Zellers]

It would not be blind and you would have to trim away the biscuit.

We must be talking about two different things. I'm saying attach biscuits to the back of the face frame into the front edge of the carcass.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

We must be talking about two different things. I'm saying attach biscuits to the back of the face frame into the front edge of the carcass.

I see said the blind man as he took up his hammer and saw. Indeed I was talking about something else.

Display mode confusion I guess. I am talking to you in two places.

[Dave Zellers]

I see said the blind man as he took up his hammer and saw. Indeed I was talking about something else.

:) The structural integrity of this project comes from the carcass. IMO there is no need for the face frame to be connected to itself except for the top rail to the end stiles which could be M&T even if the tenon is short, say 3/8".

[Jim Becker]

Am I missing something here? Doesn't every face frame piece butt up to vertical and horizontal shelf dividers? If so, this is the perfect application of a biscuit joiner.

The pieces involved in this discussion are only 3/4" wide. I don't believe you can get any kind of biscuit that small. A dowel...yes, however.

[Dave Zellers]

The pieces involved in this discussion are only 3/4" wide. I don't believe you can get any kind of biscuit that small. A dowel...yes, however.

Please see the posts just above. I just covered this with Maurice.

In this project, the 3/4" face frame pieces do not need to be attached to each other.

[Jim Becker]

Dave, I was responding to what I quoted at the time. My own earlier response is consistent with the idea that there's no need to fasten them where there is underlying support...they are just "thick edge banding". :)

[Dave Zellers]

Dave, I was responding to what I quoted at the time. My own earlier response is consistent with the idea that there's no need to fasten them where there is underlying support...they are just "thick edge banding". :)

Whoops I had forgotten about that post.

So I WAS missing something!