Dust Collection (Long)

[Allen Grimes]

I really dont want to spend any money on DC anytime soon, but the planer that I'm looking at says its necessary to work properly. I figure that if I am going to have to waste my money on DC right now I may as well get a good enough system where I wont need to where a mask.

So my question is, what is the lowest I can go, in terms of HP, to be able to breath freely without having to wear a mask?

I tried getting this info from Bill Pentz's site but there is too much information on that site that I really dont care to learn about and it is too much to dig through to get the specific answers I need.

This is the machine that I am looking at right now. http://www.oneida-air.com/products/systems/super_gorilla/main.htm

My current shop is very small, 11x14 but once I can afford to build the rest of it, it will be 39x39 and that 11x14 (which will be part of the 39x39)will be my spray room. What I am looking for is a DC system for the full shop not what I have now.

[Roy Wall]

Allen,

I have the 2 hp gorilla......1305 cfm rating.

I drop a 6" line down 2' off the floor, then 10' of flex hose for my Jointer / planer - the DC is excellent........but the caveat is also how well the DC "shroud" is designed around the cutterhead.

A 5" hose to the cabinet saw base and 4" hose to the blade guard.....virtually no dust (I can't see any) on cutting mdf......

So.......it works well. I don't think you'll be dissappointed with the 3hp system. In the back of my mind I kinda wish I'd gotten the 3 hp system, but the reality is the 2 hp system works extremely well and I am pleased.

I was told the 2hp gorilla would handle two machines at once, so that's why I got it.....a little extra insurance I suppose. I think the 3hp is a great choice.

[lloyd morris]

"I really dont want to spend any money on DC anytime soon, but the planer that I'm looking at says its necessary to work properly. I figure that if I am going to have to waste my money on DC right now I may as well get a good enough system where I wont need to where a mask.

I tried getting this info from Bill Pentz's site but there is too much information on that site that I really dont care to learn about and it is too much to dig through to get the specific answers I need."

I am still recovering from a serious allergic reaction to airborn wood dust from an exposure last June. I wish I had read Bill's Pentz's site more carefully and followed his recommendations.

Now I consider a very effective mask as essential as safety glasses and believe a top quality dust collector the most important tool in the shop. By the way I worked for several years without any problem and was in excellent physical condition when the problems started.

My biggest mistake was not taking exposure to wood dust more seriously. IMHO buying a dust collector is not "wasting your money" but cheap insurance for your health.

Hope this helps.

Lloyd

[Chris Barton]

The gorilla outa do it for you.

[Allen Grimes]

My biggest mistake was not taking exposure to wood dust more seriously. IMHO buying a dust collector is not "wasting your money" but cheap insurance for your health.

Hope this helps.

LloydLloyd,

What I mean by wasting money is that I have a pretty efficient dust mask and I have no problem using it so buying a DC unit to me isnt something that is necessary, healthwise, that for me would only be for comfort.

I did read Bill Pentz's site a little over a year ago and thats why I bought the mask in the first place. I dont make sawdust without it. The thing is I forgot most of what I read, because now that I got a mask, DC is not somethihg that I am concerned about.

The problem now, is that the manual for the planer I am looking at says that a DC system is necessary for the thing to run properly. Since I dont need DC for health reasons it is a waste to me, but since I need to buy it anyway for the planer I at least dont want to have to wear my mask anymore.

[Rob Russell]

Allen,

I'd suggest another approach to your DC needs. Long term, you're going to have a large shop. I'd talk with the folks at either Oneida or Gorilla to see what they say will be needed in terms of HP to collect through all the ducting you'll have in the new shop. You might find that you'll be better off buying a small, 1-machine rollaround DC now that you can put 1-micron bags on and just use that until you get the new shop built. That way you won't have a large DC taking up space in your current/small shop. You'll also defer the expense of buying the larger DC until you need it.

If they say the 3HP machine will work for you in the new shop and it has the 1 micron filtering, fine. I'd want to make sure the 3HP has enough power to collect through 60 feet of duct work including some flex hose when the filters are dirty.

Just my .02.

Rob

[Allen Grimes]

Rob,

I think you are the first person to really understand what I meant when I said a big DC now would be a waste of money. Though maybe you dont understand me and you just thought up all of this on your own.:rolleyes:

Anyway, I dont know what you mean by rollaround DC. Are you talking about something like the Dust Deputy?

[scott kinninger]

Once you get a dust collector hooked up to your machines and see the difference you'll never go back. I think you'll want at least a 1 micron filter in order to minimize the need for a dust mask, I couldn't find that info on the link you provided so, like stated before, you'll have to check on that.
I've got a $275 Delta 1250 cfm that is more than sufficient to suck planer shavings through 25 feet of flex hose and it's on wheels so if I had a bigger shop area I could easily move it around. Is there a reason you need to "waste" $1300 on a machine like that when something else may be just as good but enable you to have enough money leftover to buy a band saw, drum sander...? Keep in mind, I am no expert, just wondering.

One more thing, the collection drum on the Oneida machine looks kind of small to me. It would only take about 1-2 hours of light-medium work on a planer to fill that thing up. I like a collector because it also decreases my cleaning up time, there's things I would rather do than empty that collector out 2 or 3 times on a Sunday in the shop. How do even know when it's full?

[Allen Grimes]

Is there a reason you need to "waste" $1300 on a machine like that when something else may be just as good but enable you to have enough money leftover to buy a band saw, drum sander...? Keep in mind, I am no expert, just wondering.
Thanks for the info Scott,

That is exactly my point. I dont want to spend all kinds of money on DC right now if I dont have to, eventually I would like to have a big system to cover my whole shop, but until that shop is built and full of machines, I dont really need to go all out on DC.

Anyway, I am very intersted in the DC unit you were talking about, so if you could send me a link, I would appreciate it.

As for the drum on the Oneida, it's 35 gallons, but you can also get a 55 gallon drum instead. Im not sure how fast they would fill up, but right now that is the least of my concerns.

[Jim Becker]

Allen, I think you'll find that the 3hp Gorilla is a "kick-butt" system. Relative to Scott's comment about the drum, do upgrade to the 55 gallon drum. And he's wrong about "1-2 hours" of light-medium work on a planer filling it up...you can easily fill even a 55 gallon drum in a half-hour if you try hard enough!

I don't agree that an investment in a cyclone system would be any kind of "waste" of money, whether you buy it or build it. The single stage systems are great for chip collection, but really don't cut it for "dust" collection, even with upgraded bags. That's one of the major points of the DC site that you mentioned in your first post.

[scott kinninger]

It is the Delta 50-760 and it is 1200 cfm (not 1250 as I stated before), 1.5 hp and comes standard with a 1 micron bag.
http://http://www.deltamachinery.com/index.asp?e=136&p=5815
I found mine on sale at Farm & Fleet and got a $30 MFG rebate so I actually got it for around $250.

[Jim Becker]

The "real" CFM for the Delta unit is likely closer to about 600-700 CFM with 6" hose. The manufacturer ratings are usually "free air" ratings and don't represent how much air they can move when connected to duct work/machines. I only mention that to be sure that expectations are realistic. Bill also covers this on his site.

[Rob Russell]

... I dont want to spend all kinds of money on DC right now if I dont have to ... until that shop is built and full of machines, I dont really need to go all out on DC.


IMO, If you're not going to get a 1 micron DC, you're better off not getting one. I went with a .1 micron DC, but that was because I had the $ to do it. It's the small dust particles that you need to capture and a lot of the low end DC's won't do that.

As examples:
- Grizzly 1 mircon, 2HP Canister DC for $500 - Grizzly G0548 DC (http://www.grizzly.com/products/G0548).
- Delta 1 micron, 1.5 HP single bag DC for $300 - Delta 50-760 (http://www.deltamachinery.com/index.asp?e=136&p=5815).

Those are just a couple of examples. You can easily search the web yourself for more.

The first step is to talk with Oneida and get an idea of what you're looking at long-term. Even without a shop layout, you know that you'll have 50-60 of duct plus hoses, bends etc. They can help size the machine for the long-term and that gives you something to use as a basis for comparison.

Rob

[Allen Grimes]

Thanks guys,

I think I have enough info to continue on by myself. Im not sure what I am going to do yet, but I am definately going to take Rob's advice and talk directly to Oneida.

Jim,

Dont get me wrong, I know that DC is important and I do not think that DC is a waste of money at all. And I did read Bill Pentz's site thoroughly in the past. But what I am trying to say is that I have a good dust mask so I really dont see DC as a priority right at this moment, besides the fact that I need some kind of DC for some of the tools I am planning to buy.

I take my health very seriously and for that I always wear my mask even when hand sanding unless I am outside on a breezy day.

Also I didnt mean any disrespect to Bill Pentz's himself. I really do appreciate that I can go to his site to learn all that I need to about dust collection.

I guess in the end I am really undecided on what to do. But I will let you know once I make a decision.

Thanks again for all of your help.

[Bob Dodge]

Hi Jim,

That 1 1/2 hp Delta 50-760, should actually be easily capable of pulling close to 800-850 cfm depending on how it's ducted. It has an 11 1/2" impeller, and a fairly large blower outlet, plus an over-sized (20.5 sq.ft) 1 micron filter, for low outlet pressure-drop. The filters in that entire line-up of the new Delta dc's, is the best I've seen on consumer level dust collectors.

In the American Woodworker Magazine test (June, 2000), dc's with 5" inlet/outlets, and 11" impellers, pulled roughly 800-825 cfm. The Jet 1 1/2 hp with it's 6" inlet/5" outlet, and 11" impeller managed 860 cfm.

http://www.deltamachinery.com/index.asp?e=136&p=5815

Here's a review;

http://www.newwoodworker.com/reviews/d50-760rvu.html

In the 2hp Category, The Jet DC-1200, with 12" impeller, and all 6" porting, managed 1025 cfm. The new Delta 2hp model 50-761, also has a 12" impeller, and 7" inlet/outlet. 41 sq,ft. of high-quality needle-felt filters, with twin large-capacity waste bags. A unit like that, should be able to run for quite some time without interuption to empty the waste bags. IT should easily exceed the 1025 cfm mark with 6" pipe, and beyond with a 7" pipe.

http://www.deltamachinery.com/index.asp?e=136&p=5816

Delta also tends to use motors rated for "continuous" duty-cycle operation, and include manual thermal overload protection.

Both of these dc's strike me as being the best bang-for-the-buck within their respective categories. Fit and finish is excellant, and their readily available at almost any local machinery store, so no shipping charges to deal with.

Bob

[Jim Becker]

Bob, it's best to fudge down when it comes to anticipating "CFM"...nobody can do "perfect" duct work and the machine hood is the real bottleneck. Half the free-air rating is probably a safe bet.

[Lowell Kinzer]

Delta also tends to use motors rated for "continuous" duty-cycle operation, and include manual thermal overload protection.

There is no duty rating nor thermal protection rating on the motor nameplate of my Delta 50-761. The nameplate includes only the following information:


Delta DUST COLLECTOR
Model 50-761

V: 230 A: 10.5 Hz: 60

PH: 1 HP: 2 RPM: 3450

There is no manual-reset button visible on the exposed motor housing.

[Allan Johanson]

Bob, it's best to fudge down when it comes to anticipating "CFM"...nobody can do "perfect" duct work and the machine hood is the real bottleneck. Half the free-air rating is probably a safe bet.

...especially when you actually hook up a tool to the ducting. People tend to overlook that at times but some tools are very restrictive and it can dramatically affect airflow.

Also, I'm curious about these Delta 760/761 DCs and what they've done to the design of them. Looking at the info on Delta's site:

http://www.deltamachinery.com/index.asp?e=136&p=852

...you will see at the bottom that the new 760/761 have a much lower max SP than the old 850. So I'm curious about the new design. It seems like there is a good chance that these are designed to flow more air at lower resistance. But if you have 4" ducting, small ports or restrictive tools, then you might be better off with a different DC.

I'd like to get my hands on one to test it out. I'm curious.

Cheers,

Allan

[Barry O'Mahony]

I tried getting this info from Bill Pentz's site but there is too much information on that site that I really dont care to learn about and it is too much to dig through to get the specific answers I need.There's no free lunch. IMHO If you want to make an informed pruchasing decision (about anything), you're going to have to do some work. Especially about a subject that can be a complex as dust collection.

[Bob Dodge]

Hi Lowell,

Glad to hear from you. I've been looking for owner responses to the performance of the Delta 2hp model 50-761 for quite some time now. How do you like the dc so far? What is your shop air-quality like? How's the suction?

Regarding the name-plate info, I'd be surprised if Delta wouldn't have a continuous duty-cycle rated moror on this dc. Even the cheapest DC-850 1 1/2 hp model, had that clearly stamped on the name-plate. Also had manual thermal overload protection.

Bob

[Mark Rios]

Ya know?....I've been following this thread very closely now for TWO WHOLE PAGES and I have yet to see even one pic of dust. What kind of a dust collection is this? No maple dust, no walnut dust, not even any simple doug fir dust. What gives?

[Lowell Kinzer]

I've been looking for owner responses to the performance of the Delta 2hp model 50-761 for quite some time now. How do you like the dc so far? What is your shop air-quality like? How's the suction?

I'm satisfied with it, but then I'm not loading it much nor using it an optimal configuration. It is quite an improvement over the 16-gallon wet/dry vacuum I had been using for dust collection. The 50-761 is currently connected to two tools by a 10' length of 4" flexible hose to each tool.

One tool is a 10" table saw with a 2.5" dust port. I haven't yet cut enough to see if the 50-761 is any better than the vacuum in that application. With the restricted connection at the saw, I don't expect much difference.

The other connection is to a downdrafter, which is mounted behind a 12" SCMS. The prior attempt at dust collection on this tool was with the wet/dry vacuum's 2.5" hose connected to the entirely inadequate 1.5" port on the SCMS. I only started using the downdrafter after I assembled the 50-761. The downdrafter has a 4"/5" port. I no longer find myself enveloped by a dust cloud when cutting laminate flooring planks and MDF trim. And I won't have to replace the cartridges in my dust mask as frequently as I had to before.

I plan to eventually install a run of 6" spiral or snap-lock ducting along the floor to a total of five tools. The tool layout is still in flux and other projects on my Honey-do list have a higher ranking according to SWMBO, so it will likely be some time before I can get that done. I do have a couple of ambient air cleaners to hang from the ceiling to help catch what escapes the DC.


Regarding the name-plate info, I'd be surprised if Delta wouldn't have a continuous duty-cycle rated moror on this dc. Even the cheapest DC-850 1 1/2 hp model, had that clearly stamped on the name-plate. Also had manual thermal overload protection.

The motor nameplate on my 50-761 isn't the stamped metal type I'm accustomed to seeing on motors. It is a three-color coated-paper label. I haven't had the time, nor the ambition, to disassemble the motor/impeller assembly to see if there is a proper nameplate or a manual-reset button elsewhere on the motor.

[Joe Chritz]

Another vote for the Oneida system.

I have the 2HP super dust gorilla (which I believe is just a baldor motor difference from the dust gorilla). I can forget and leave my downdraft open and it still does good.

A powerful system that would hold you well into the shop expansion.

Joe

[tod evans]

allen, if you want the most bang for your buck i think clearvue is the way to go. you can build as much of it as you want to save money plus it passes bill`s tests......02 tod

[Guy Germaine]

Another unit that hasn't been mentioned is the Shop Fox 1 1/2 hp. I bought this one last weekend at the WW show for $199. I have it set up for now just using 4" flex hose to the TS, Jointer, and the back of the TS mounted router. It works like a champ!

http://www.fototime.com/1DB635A3115B0C6/standard.jpg

Here are the specs on it:

Motor size: 1-1/2 HP, 110V, single-phase, 3,450 RPM
Motor amp draw: 110V - 16A
Portable base size: 21-1/2" x 33-1/2"
Bag volume: 5.4 cubic feet
Height (with bags inflated): 78"
Bag size (Dia. x depth): 19" x 33" (2)
Powder-coated paint
Air suction capacity: Approx. 1,280 CFM
Impeller: Balanced steel, radial fin 12"
6" inlet with a removable "Y" fitting with two 4" openings
Static pressure: 10.1"
Standard bag filtration: 30 Micron
Approx. shipping weight: 120 lbs.