Where will carbide be used next in the woodworking shop?

[Steve Mathews]

While thinking about the amount of HSS being replaced with carbide in tools I wonder what will be next - hand plane irons? hand saws? wood chisels? woodturning gouges? We're already seeing carbide inserts on woodturning gouges, planers and jointers. And what about the whole industry not to mention the skills involved in sharpening HSS tools?

[Ron Citerone]

I remember learning that Carbide will stay sharp longer and burn less than HSS, but HSS could be brought to a finer edge. Not sure if that is still or ever was correct. If true I would think plane irons and chisels would be made from HSS unless carbide has an advance in technology. Just my musing. Perhaps others will have more insight than me.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

I am trying to decide if the next batch of WoodMizer Blades will be carbide tipped. Shipping costs have gone up enough to give me pause when thinking of sending a batch off for sharpening. The last of H.S.S. that have been sharpened and hard surfaced at the farm are getting brittle and breaking. It is something I need to do the math on... I do not have enough personal data on carbide tipped bandsaw blades. I am pleased with the one in the shop. It is my first one.

[Edward Weber]

The main drawback to carbide is corner strength.
You're not going to see anything with an acute angle like a plane iron or chisel until there's a "major" leap forward in this area.

[Andrew Hughes]

I don’t see how carbide can replace chisels or handplanes. I don’t even like it for jointer knives
I’m patiently waiting for some handplane blade for my Lie Neilson bench and apron planes from Lake Erie Toolworks. If I remember correctly it’s powered metal. https://www.lakeerietoolworks.com/
I don’t like A2 very much.

[Steve Mathews]

I was first introduced to nanograin carbide cutters for woodturning by Lyle Jamieson. Apparently the fine grain structure of this carbide can equal the sharpness of HSS. See Lyle's website and the following for some details on it. I don't know whether it can be applied to plane irons and chisels but I thought the same thing about circular saw blades and now they're almost ubiquitous. I think one of the reasons it may be slow in coming is that the market is very limited and may not be worth the effort to develop.
https://www.accu-slice.com/hunter-tool-system.html

[John TenEyck]

I am trying to decide if the next batch of WoodMizer Blades will be carbide tipped. Shipping costs have gone up enough to give me pause when thinking of sending a batch off for sharpening. The last of H.S.S. that have been sharpened and hard surfaced at the farm are getting brittle and breaking. It is something I need to do the math on... I do not have enough personal data on carbide tipped bandsaw blades. I am pleased with the one in the shop. It is my first one.

Shipping is free on Woodmizer blades, Maurice, if you buy 5 or more. The standard steel blades are incredibly cheap, less than $25 each for the 144" ones on my mill. I find my sawmill blades break after 8 to 10 running hours, for the two brands I've used. That being the case, I can't justify the cost of a carbide blade. I can't even justify the cost of bimetal blades, especially considering the possibility of hitting metal in the mostly urban logs I cut. I sharpen the blades with a homebuilt automatic sharpener that I built for about $100, so there's no need to send them out for sharpening. After 2 or 3 sharpenings they have 8 to 10 running hours and usually break. I'm OK with that. I'll have cut at least 1000 BF with that blade, so that works out to $0.025/bf in blade cost.

Here's a link to the sharpener I built: https://sites.google.com/view/jteneyck-woodworker/lumbermill-blade-sharpener?authuser=1

John

[Maurice Mcmurry]

It is a Dilemma. I worked side by side woh a guy who had a cheap B&D hand held power planer. It used inexpensive, reversible , carbide inserts. I had (have) a more expensive Roybi with H.S.S. . I sharpened my Ryobi 3 times before he ever had to flip his carbide inserts. My Ryobi is almost (totally, but I still use it) obsolete because the blades are too short to sharpen and have been discontinued for years. Carbide inserts for the B&D are still available. It is time for me to get a new power plane. I am thinking I will get a Makita with H.S.S.

[Bill Dufour]

Carbide tipped chainsaw chains are being sold today.
In metal working polycrytaline diamond is replacing carbide in some high production shops. Higher speed of cut and longer life between sharpening makes up for higher cost.
Bill D

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Thanks John. This is very helpful. We have the Woodmizer sharpener and hard surfacer. My brother quit doing his own sharpening because he could not get results as good as ones done by Woodmizer. I have 4 new H.S.S. blades left. then I will re-familiarize myself with sharpening.

[Cameron Wood]

It is a Dilemma. I worked side by side woh a guy who had a cheap B&D hand held power planer. It used inexpensive, reversible , carbide inserts. I had (have) a more expensive Roybi with H.S.S. . I sharpened my Ryobi 3 times before he ever had to flip his carbide inserts. My Ryobi is almost (totally, but I still use it) obsolete because the blades are too short to sharpen and have been discontinued for years. Carbide inserts for the B&D are still available. It is time for me to get a new power plane. I am thinking I will get a Makita with H.S.S.


Why would you do that? IME, power planes are rather crude, and semi disposable tools. The first line of attack where they will meet grit, nails, old finishes, and other nasty stuff.

I've tried to keep one tuned up to a higher level but it doesn't last. The 6" Makita is the exception, but it only comes out after a 3 1/4" one has run interference.

[Jay Houghton]

The issue with carbide is the crystal size. When it's sintered it forms crystals that are of a size that no matter how you sharpen it, it can only get so sharp because the crystal size prohibits it. With HSS the steel crystals are extremely small, especially after heat treating so you can get an extremely fine edge with it. For that reason fine cutting tools like chisels and carving tools will probably always be made from HSS. The exception is PMV-11 which is a powdered metal that Veritas uses in their chisels and plane blades. If the carbide industry comes along and creates a product with crystalline structure that is better than HSS I think you'd find a stampede to that product. I've had many years of jointers and and planers with HSS blades and after the 2 hours of getting them adjusted they cut like a surgeon, but alas not for very long.

BTW, I have a Lenox Tri-Master on my 24" bandsaw and it will plow through 10" of white oak likes it's not there. Not cheap, but what a blade.

[Steve Mathews]

The issue with carbide is the crystal size. When it's sintered it forms crystals that are of a size that no matter how you sharpen it, it can only get so sharp because the crystal size prohibits it. With HSS the steel crystals are extremely small, especially after heat treating so you can get an extremely fine edge with it. For that reason fine cutting tools like chisels and carving tools will probably always be made from HSS. The exception is PMV-11 which is a powdered metal that Veritas uses in their chisels and plane blades. If the carbide industry comes along and creates a product with crystalline structure that is better than HSS I think you'd find a stampede to that product. I've had many years of jointers and and planers with HSS blades and after the 2 hours of getting them adjusted they cut like a surgeon, but alas not for very long.

BTW, I have a Lenox Tri-Master on my 24" bandsaw and it will plow through 10" of white oak likes it's not there. Not cheap, but what a blade.

Jay,
Just the point. The nanograin structure of these new carbides is achieving the sharpness similarly obtained with HSS. And apparently they're coming out of the molds this way. You may want to visit Lyle Jamieson's website and the other link I posted earlier.

[Richard Coers]

I can't wait until the first carbide screwdrivers arrive. I'll never have to sharpen one again!

[Jay Houghton]

Ah! Exactly....I'm not totally up to speed on the latest in metallurgy. But let me ask a question. Isn't turning essentially a scraping type of material removal? The material contacts the carbide tool at a perpendicular angle (or close) thus removing material by scraping. Chisels, jointers and planers are cutting tools which work differently, and of course wear differently. A cutting tool makes a lousy scraper and a scraper makes a lousy cutting tool.

[Mel Fulks]

It is …for some hobbyists, and anyone who scrapes ,instead of cutting, I worked for
a turner who who could cover a floor with long spiral wood ‘springs’. He even had some
customers who told him to NOT SAND ! , I’ve seen old good quality turnings that showed
no signs of any sanding.

[Larry Frank]

When we talk about generic carbide tools, we are missing some things. Depending on how it is produced and heat treated, the carbide grain size can be all over the place and we never really know. I think powdered metallurgy tools are probably better for some uses.
I
The same goes for steels like A2. It is a complicated steel to heat treated and requires great care too properly. You can get a WIDE range of properties from A2 depending on the heat treatment. Steels such as O1 or 1095 are very easy to heat treat.

[Steve Mathews]

Ah! Exactly....I'm not totally up to speed on the latest in metallurgy. But let me ask a question. Isn't turning essentially a scraping type of material removal? The material contacts the carbide tool at a perpendicular angle (or close) thus removing material by scraping. Chisels, jointers and planers are cutting tools which work differently, and of course wear differently. A cutting tool makes a lousy scraper and a scraper makes a lousy cutting tool.

Woodturning involves scraping, cutting and sometimes in between depending on the tool and technique used. You might say that woodturners "ride the bevel" with a gouge with a supported cut in much the same way that the sole of a plane supports a cut to give a smooth finish that may not require sanding. All of the carbide tools in woodturning up until the nanograin carbide tool offered by Jamieson and others I believe were more for scraping. They were easy to use and didn't require sharpening but the finish was not the most desirable. The nanograin carbide cutter is brought into the wood at an angle and because it is very sharp will produce a much nicer slicing cut and finish. I have some of the nanograin carbide cutters but haven't used them yet so can't speak from experience. Others will have to chime in for that.

[brent stanley]

One way to think about it is not regarding the potential sharpness of HSS (compared to TC), but the real-world sharpness of it in real-world use. For machine blades the HSS may come out sharper than even high quality carbide, but for how many pieces of (for example) white oak? If you or your sharpening service can achieve razor sharp edges on HSS knives, I expect it will only be a few sticks of white oak before they are now the same sharpness as fresh, good quality carbide. You aren't going to replace those HSS knives at this point, you're going to carry on using them for some time and they will get duller and duller till they need replacing. The carbides will stay at an acceptable level of sharpness for some time. Now with hand tools where you can quickly rework the edge to razor sharp there may be an advantage to HSS if you are skilled and efficient at reworking the edge. For machine tools that can take time to swap knives carbide may make more sense. Teresa knives or similar for example that can be swapped easily may be the exception where any advantage of sharper HSS could be more easily leveraged.

[Edward Weber]

Jay,
Just the point. The nanograin structure of these new carbides is achieving the sharpness similarly obtained with HSS. And apparently they're coming out of the molds this way. You may want to visit Lyle Jamieson's website and the other link I posted earlier.

It's not only crystal size but also how it's sintered.

A crude analogy would be concrete.
At a 90 degree angle. it can last a long time taking lots of wear. If you lessen the angle to say, 70 degrees, it's more likely to chip when exposed to the same wear.
This is partly due to the particle size and the manufacturing processes we have now.

Until the particle size gets small enough (probably PICO) you can't get carbide to keep an acute angle, like a plane iron or chisel, without being too brittle to hold together.
Many carbide inserts have an angle of no more than 60 degrees, give or take, and rely on the installation angle in the tool to achieve the proper cutting angle to prolong their life.

[Tom M King]

Maurice:

Sorry for getting off topic, but I wanted to address something about the Makita power planer that Maurice was talking about. The blades are ridiculously easy to change. They come with a little Delrin jig to screw the blade carriers to the blades. That automatically sets them to exactly the right height. I keep a toolbox with two of the 3-1/4" ones in. One for rough work, and one for clean work. The rough work one may get some chips in the knives but still works until I decide they're bad enough to change.

I keep a 9mm (if I'm remembering that correctly-check it before buying one) T-wrench in the toolbox with the planers that fits the bolts for blade carriers to head, and a screwdriver that fits the screws for carrier (or whatever it's called) to knives. Edited to add: also a cheap pair of scissors to open the new blade package. I can swap both knives in one in less than a minute total without getting in a hurry, and it goes right back to work like a new one.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

Thanks Tom. The Makita sounds similar to the Ryobi. The blades are very similar but just different enough to be not interchangeable. Mine screw on to the chip-breaker / ejector with small screws in slots. I am at the end of my slots on both pairs of blades after 30 years of sharpening. The Ryobi came with a honing fixture.

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[brent stanley]

Thanks Tom. The Makita sounds similar to the Ryobi. The blades are very similar but just different enough to be not interchangeable. Mine screw on to the chip-breaker / ejector with small screws in slots. I am at the end of my slots on both pairs of blades after 30 years of sharpening. The Ryobi came with a honing fixture.

499636

My large Makita beam planer uses a Tersa style (not true Tersa) knife and is pretty quick to swap out, though the Byrd replacement for it is pretty popular due to the frequency of road grit on delivered timbers. Here's a video I did on the big power planer:

https://youtu.be/p-woalcHZTQ

[Tom M King]

Good stuff Brent. I haven’t needed smooth beams sine I built new houses. Anything the 6-3/4 couldn’t take care of, I walked them with a big floor drum sander that I also used on floors. Not the lightweight ones you get from rental places that you have to push down on the handle to raise, but a heavy one with a small handle for easing the drum up and down.

[brent stanley]

Good stuff Brent. I haven’t needed smooth beams sine I built new houses. Anything the 6-3/4 couldn’t take care of, I walked them with a big floor drum sander that I also used on floors. Not the lightweight ones you get from rental places that you have to push down on the handle to raise, but a heavy one with a small handle for easing the drum up and down.

If you look up Thornhill Timberframes on Instagram, he built himself a "running planer" where the bed of a motor-on-top, off-shore, 4-poster 15" planer was replaced with about 40' of roller conveyor. He adjusts the heights, rolls the timber in and the stock feed rollers pull it through, flattening it too. He had custom posts made to gain the height he needs and also a turntable for th planer so he can rotate it 180deg and plane both directions. Very clever!

[Tom M King]

Good stuff Brent. I haven’t needed smooth beams sine I built new houses. Anything the 6-3/4 couldn’t take care of, I walked them with a big floor drum sander that I also used on floors. Not the lightweight ones you get from rental places that you have to push down on the handle to raise, but a heavy one with a small handle for easing the drum up and down.

[Tom M King]

Don’t know why that post was doubled. Not the best at posting from the phone

[johnny means]

There isn't really a lot of technological innovation in the wood shop. Seems like they've used carbide cutting edged on on the tools it makes sense on. Hand tools haven't changed much in hundreds of years. They seem to be a pretty mature technology. My guess is that we won't be seeing carbide in any truly new application any time soon.

[Brian Holcombe]

Can also go right past carbide to PCD on some things, they outlive carbide.