Chisel Sharpen Feedback Requested

[Greg Parrish]

I've probably spent way too much time on this, but I've been working on a 3/4” Lie Nielsen chisel that was as new from LN. I went through motions to flatten/polish the back on 5,000 and 8,000 grit shapton stones per the LN sharpen instructions. Then, I loaded the chisel up in my LN guide and set to 35 degrees per the measurements in their sharpen guide. Started on the 1,000 stone for around 30 strokes. Then moved to the 5,000 stone for around 45 strokes. Then to the 8,000 stone for around 45 strokes. Then I removed the chisel and lightly polished the back on the 8,000 stone, pulling the tip backwards onto the stone from the far side. I repeated this about 5 times to tame any bur.

So, at the end of the day, I have a fairly large polished area on the top of the chisel that shines in the light, and I have a very slight polished sliver just at the tip on the back. Seems like I did everything right per their instructions. But, I'm wondering if I have too much polished/sharpened? Also, when I tried cutting a piece of printer paper, it cuts but leaves some little tears. Not quite razor blade sharp, but still sharp.

I see people take their plane and chisel blades down to razor blade sharp in youtube videos, but I'm not seeming to get there. I didn't strop the blade after sharpening and maybe that's it, but is it practical on a chisel to go any sharper than I did? Or am I missing something in my process. Want to pin it down before I hit the other chisels on hand.

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Sharpen stones and flattening plate I'm using

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1” LN chisel on left as I received it. 3/4” LN chisel on right after my sharpening.

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Zoom in of the 1” as received from LN.

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Zoom of the 3/4” after sharpening. Hard to get better pictures on my phone camera.

[Charles Guest]

It should cut printer paper absolutely cleanly, with no tearing. In fact, you should be able to hold the chisel near its end and cut curves and shapes in paper while suspended in mid-air in your off hand and the cuts all come out clean. Cheap $10 chisels can easily be brought to that level of sharpness with a remarkably small amount of honing equipment.

Something has gone awry in your somewhat overwrought routine.

[Greg Parrish]

Hmmmm..... I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong then. The routine I followed was taken directly from Lie Nielsen's sharpening guide: https://www.lie-nielsen.com/pages/downloads

As mentioned, I have it to the point it will slice paper, just not as cleanly as you mentioned. I'll give it some more tries tonight to see as maybe I just need a little more honing on the higher grit to clean up the cut a little more.

[Charles Guest]

It really shouldn't take more than three minutes or so if the back was flat from the factory and already had a little polish. The jig is somehow betraying you, slipping perhaps. I can cut cheap paper towels cleanly without tearing and with a Marples Blue Chip off a Washita, much less printer paper with Lie-Nielsen, Shaptons, etc.

[Jim Koepke]

Greg, it isn't the number of strokes that sharpen a chisel, it is making sure the effort is done correctly.

On any grit, a burr should be raised. My tendency is to remove the grit on the stone that made it before moving to the next stone.

If you let a big bur grow before removing it, it can leave a rough edge when it is removed. A small bur may come off after 1 or 2 strokes. A heavy bur might not be fully removed after 5 strokes. Use your fingernail to feel for a bur.

Stropping may help, but can also be detrimental if done too much on a soft strop.

jtk

[Greg Parrish]

I just watched one of the LN videos on chisels with Angie Kopacek found here: https://youtu.be/Qi_etQP6OIw

What I find interesting is the chisels she is using have a much more polished back. At around 1:03 in the video you can see an almost mirror finish on the chisel back. The LN claim to come perfectly flat and ready to lightly hone, but maybe I misunderstand what that means. Maybe I need to spend a little more time polishing and flattening the back on mine, and then start the process over.

Per Jim’s comments above, I was wiping between grits but I never did really get a visible but. Maybe something I could just feel. Anyway, I’m going to go back to square one and start over. Thanks.

[Charles Guest]

Polish the back on your finest stone. See if the scratch pattern goes all the way to the cutting edge all the way across the chisel. If it does not, you're going to have to drop back a few steps in grit and flatten it then bring it up to polish on your finer stone or stones. Luckily, this shouldn't take very long on a half-inch chisel unless it's outright defective. Hold the chisel flat on the stone and use the whole stone. Don't put a death grip on the chisel or lean too hard on it. Just firm enough to make sure it's registered to the stone. If the back is flat and polished all the way to the cutting edge all the way across the chisel, then you've eliminated the back as a potential source for the trouble you're having. Once you have it in this state, you never go back to lower grit stones for the back of the chisel. You're simply wiping the burr off the back and flipping it to the front or polishing it completely off depending on how fine your media is. A2 probably won't throw up a scratchy burr on very fine stones. There should be something there, but it won't feel like 01.

If the scratch pattern indicates the chisel has a "belly" then send it back -- they put the bevel on the wrong side of the chisel. You can flatten one that's bellied, but it'll drive you nuts first. Hopefully the back is slightly concave and you'll immediately produce polish at the cutting edge. You do not, and should not, flatten it until the concavity is gone. It's your friend. It will go away over time, but that's to be expected. For now, just hope that's what you have.

Pressing very hard will not make the process go faster. In fact, it prevents the stone from working as it should. Let the stone do the work.

[Greg Parrish]

Okay, here is where I'm at. Spent the last hour flattening and polishing the back further, and then honing the front again. I honestly don't know if it's the chisel or if this is normal. It will slice paper now, but still hangs up a little. It's certainly sharper and I can feel that difference on a piece of maple end grain, but I feel like it could still be sharper. I just don't know if its normal to need to do 1.5 hours of flatten and polish on the back of LN chisels to get them ready to become razor sharp, or if I'm still missing the boat somewhere.

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3/4" on left after flattening/polishing back. 1” on right as received from LN.

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Front edge of the 3/4"

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Rear edge of 3/4” This was after flattening and sharpening. Looks rough still but also the metal looks strange. Can't quite get it zoomed in enough for detail. As mentioned, it will start to shave paper, but eventually hangs up. Is that maybe still a slight but on there that I can’t feel but can see zoomed in?

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Here they are side by side in better light.


So, looking at the zoom in of the back edge, it still looks to have issues to me. Don't know if that means I need to flatten it further, or honestly what I need to do. The LN chisel set are fairly new to me in that I bought them over the last 8 months, but finally got to a project where I want to use them and have gotten around to trying to get them setup.

[Charles Guest]

Register only the first inch or of the chisel rather than practically the whole thing - only the amount you need to keep it firm on the stone. You're spending time flattening and polishing too far up the chisel. The 1/2" clearly is not sharp, polished, and flat all the way to the edge.

[Steve Mathews]

Back of the 1/2" looks like it has somehow gotten a bevel on it. Register only the first inch of the chisel rather than practically the whole thing. It's probably not completely flat in its length and it's getting tipped up on the stone somehow.

I noticed the same thing. The back should be completely flat for the first inch or more. I've brought LN chisels back as far back as the tang would allow. Also, and just as importantly are you flattening your stones periodically. You won't achieve flatness on the chisel without a flat stone.

[Charles Guest]

I noticed the same thing. The back should be completely flat for the first inch or more. I've brought LN chisels back as far back as the tang would allow. Also, and just as importantly are you flattening your stones periodically. You won't achieve flatness on the chisel without a flat stone.

But at the moment he needs to only worry about the first inch or so of the back. That's why I edited my post. It may very well have a bevel on it and it's not going to go away if he tries to flatten and polish the entire length of the chisel.

[Greg Parrish]

I noticed the same thing. The back should be completely flat for the first inch or more. I've brought LN chisels back as far back as the tang would allow. Also, and just as importantly are you flattening your stones periodically. You won't achieve flatness on the chisel without a flat stone.


But at the moment he needs to only worry about the first inch or so of the back. That's why I edited my post. It may very well have a bevel on it and it's not going to go away if he tries to flatten and polish the entire length of the chisel.

Well, I’ve attacked the flattening process twice now. I’ve spent nearly 2 hours working on it. I flattened my stones before starting. Then after each pass I flattened again. Basically, I followed a LN video showing dividing the stone into 3rds long ways and working the first third across and back, then the second third across and back, and then the full stone across and back. Then they show rotating the stone and repeating. Then flatten and go again.

https://youtu.be/9aDPZzMvVTA
See around 4:30 mark

Just doesn’t make sense to me to need this much work for a $100 chisel. I really don’t know how to identify problems like bellies or bevels, but I don’t think I’ve done anything incorrectly to cause the issues so far. I could be wrong, but I’ve been following their processes exactly the way they are showing them in their videos. It honestly has me questioning the chisel, but who knows, maybe its me.

[Steve Mathews]

But at the moment he needs to only worry about the first inch or so of the back. That's why I edited my post. It may very well have a bevel on it and it's not going to go away if he tries to flatten and polish the entire length of the chisel.

But if you concentrate on only the first inch or so you may have a tendency to let the chisel dip forward. Why not register off as much of the back as possible and then stop when the first inch or so is flat. Also, the number of strokes is irrelevant. Achieve flatness first with the coarsest stone with as many strokes necessary. Some chisels take more time, some less. Then use the next higher grit stone to only remove the scratches left by the coarse stone. Again, you won't achieve flatness on the chisel without a flat stone. This is a time consuming process and there are no shortcuts.

[Tom M King]

The backs don't look close to being flat and polished to me. In one shot it even looks like there is a back bevel at the edge.

[Greg Parrish]

But if you concentrate on only the first inch or so you may have a tendency to let the chisel dip forward. Why not register off as much of the back as possible and then stop when the first inch or so is flat. Also, the number of strokes is irrelevant. Achieve flatness first with the coarsest stone with as many strokes necessary. Some chisels take more time, some less. Then use the next higher grit stone to only remove the scratches left by the coarse stone. Again, you won't achieve flatness on the chisel without a flat stone. This is a time consuming process and there are no shortcuts.

I’m going to take another crack at it later tonight. I think I see what Charles is calling a “bevel” in the close up picture of the back. it looks like there is a small line running across behind the edge where maybe it isn’t flat right near the edge. Not sure what would cause this or if it could have come this way, but I’ll start at the 1000 grit again and work my way up.

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[Greg Parrish]

The backs don't look close to being flat and polished to me. In one shot it even looks like there is a back bevel at the edge.

One of them certainly isn’t because I didn’t do anything to it. Was for comparison reference only.

On the one I’ve been working on, is the back bevel what I’m showing in my picture with the circle around it?

[Tom M King]

Yes, but it's hard to tell from the picture which way it goes. The cutting edge is the intersection of the back and the bevel side. Both sides are important to have a good cutting edge.

Are these A2?

[Greg Parrish]

Yes, but it's hard to tell from the picture which way it goes. The cutting edge is the intersection of the back and the bevel side. Both sides are important to have a good cutting edge.

Are these A2?

Yes. Per their website: “They are made of A2 Tool Steel, hardened to Rockwell 60-62, cryogenically treated and double tempered.”

[Matthew Eason]

Greg,

Hold off. I just went through this the past week with the same chisels. I think that LN video is partly the culprit. Try to find one by David Barron. Technique does play a role. The first chisel I tried copying LN video took it out of flat. You can check flat with a sharpie and a few passes over a freshly flattened stone. And yes I did have to spend some time with the larger chisels.

[Steve Mathews]

I’m going to take another crack at it later tonight. I think I see what Charles is calling a “bevel” in the close up picture of the back. it looks like there is a small line running across behind the edge where maybe it isn’t flat right near the edge. Not sure what would cause this or if it could have come this way, but I’ll start at the 1000 grit again and work my way up.

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There's nothing wrong with starting with something more coarse than the 1000 grit to get to your initial flatness. The only downside is the time it takes to remove the deeper scratches with the finer grit. FLAT STONE FLAT CHISEL BACK

[Matthew Eason]

Here's the video I was thinking of:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WtLVBr4Glk

I know you don't have to do the whole back, only the first inch, but I've been doing them the whole way because I can and I don't have much shop time so this is something I can do in the kitchen. I'll do 20-30 full length strokes back and forth with the back fully on, rotate the stone 180 and do another 20 or so. Light pressure, barely any, just to keep it flat. Then I re-flatten the stone. It's tedious and takes a while. I don't leave the 1000 Shapton until I'm satisfied and it can take up to 15 minutes on the larger chisels (less stone area vs chisel size). The smaller chisels go quite fast.

You spot check occasionally by drawing sharpie on the back of the chisel, and drag it across the newly flattened stone 2-3x. It clearly shows where the stone is not touching.

Hope this helps. I just did 8 of them this past week.

Matt

[steven c newman]

J.A.S.T. again.....I'll go pop the popcorn....Butter and salt?

[Derek Cohen]

Greg, the simplest explanation is that you have not removed all the wire. Stropping should do this.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Matthew Eason]

Here's what mine look like when I'm done with them on the 1000 Shapton.

[vince mastrosimone]

no one watch the Jonathan Katz Moses video on sharpening? It’s only a few days old. he seems to have done extensive testing. could be worth a watch.

[Matthew Eason]

I did watch. It seemed like a lot of fluff not a lot of raw data like I was expecting. Didn't like that he messed up David Charlesworth's name.

But there were some good takeaways. Suman's video seemed better presented.

[Greg Parrish]

OKay, so I spent another 2+ hours on it. This time, I started with the 1” chisel that was pictured earlier, and I worked the back flattening starting with my 400 grit atoma plate. Then moved to the 1000 shapton, then 5000 shapton and 8000 shapton. I got what I think is a flat back for about 2/3 of the back starting at the blade end. It will slice paper after sharpening, but it still hangs up. Upon some magnified viewing, I’m seeing a little bump that I can’t feel on the bottom at the tip of the blade. Is this a bur or something else?

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[Steve Mathews]

OKay, so I spent another 2+ hours on it. This time, I started with the 1” chisel that was pictured earlier, and I worked the back flattening starting with my 400 grit atoma plate. Then moved to the 1000 shapton, then 5000 shapton and 8000 shapton. I got what I think is a flat back for about 2/3 of the back starting at the blade end. It will slice paper after sharpening, but it still hangs up. Upon some magnified viewing, I’m seeing a little bump that I can’t feel on the bottom at the tip of the blade. Is this a bur or something else?

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If you encounter resistance by lightly running the tip of your fingernail along the edge you either have a burr remaining or there is a nick. The former can be removed by stropping or similarly running the blade back and forth along on a piece of hardwood, keeping the back of the blade flat on the board or course. Harder steels have more stubborn burrs. If it's a nick you'll have to grind it out making edge straight. If the nick isn't too deep you can probably just recreate a secondary bevel and tertiary bevel if you wish. That's my take on it for what it's worth.

[Rob Luter]

Greg, the simplest explanation is that you have not removed all the wire. Stropping should do this.

Regards from Perth

Derek


^ THIS ^

I had this issue early in my sharpening journey on both chisels and plane irons. I addressed it by swiping the cutting edge through some soft end grain (pine in my case) in order to dislodge the wire burr, then stropping both sides to polish and remaining irregularities in the edge. I gleaned this tip from an old Fine Woodworking Magazine article by Brian Boggs. It really works well.

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[Graham Haydon]

Hi Greg. Sorry to hear you've been having difficulty.

If you haven't resolved this yet I recommend sticking with a coarser stone for a while. #1000 grit is plenty fine enough.

Make absolutely sure there is no burr.

If a new chisel takes much more than two minutes to be working the tool is defective, the method is defective or both.

https://youtu.be/6X02pCINfIg I'm not saying you should copy the above. But the chisels are as crappy as you'll get and I had no issues with them.

It is beyond me why such an expensive chisel should need so much prep.

[Greg Parrish]

Rob, thanks for this. I’ll give this a try.


^ THIS ^

I had this issue early in my sharpening journey on both chisels and plane irons. I addressed it by swiping the cutting edge through some soft end grain (pine in my case) in order to dislodge the wire burr, then stropping both sides to polish and remaining irregularities in the edge. I gleaned this tip from an old Fine Woodworking Magazine article by Brian Boggs. It really works well.

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Graham, I appreciate the video. The paper at the end is exactly what mine will do now but it hangs up at the end of the cut. That’s where I’m thinking there is still a bur, but you can’t feel it. That close up picture I posted above of the edge shows what appears to be a tiny bump running across the bottom of the blade tip. I’m thinking Rob’s idea with honing may be worth a try.

With regards to chisels, I don’t have any issues with my Two Cherries chisel. Don’t know what the steel is on it, but it claims similar hardness rating. However, it has a 25 degree primary bevel where the LN has a 30 degree. I guess it’s possible the angle on the LN being a 35 degree secondary might make some difference, but everything I’ve ever read about LN chisels claims they are harder to sharpen. I’ve never really understood the why, but maybe I’m experiencing what they were talking about. Don’t know. Thanks for the insight though.



Hi Greg. Sorry to hear you've been having difficulty.

If you haven't resolved this yet I recommend sticking with a coarser stone for a while. #1000 grit is plenty fine enough.

Make absolutely sure there is no burr.

If a new chisel takes much more than two minutes to be working the tool is defective, the method is defective or both.

https://youtu.be/6X02pCINfIg I'm not saying you should copy the above. But the chisels are as crappy as you'll get and I had no issues with them.

It is beyond me why such an expensive chisel should need so much prep.

[Greg Parrish]

Steve, I can’t feel a burr but if you zoom in on that edge picture I posted, you can see a little bump running across the back tip of the blade. That’s what I’m assuming might be a burr. As said, it’s sharp and will slice paper, but you can feel the paper hanging up within the cut/slice. examination shows no nicks visible, even under the magnification, so I can only assume there is still some level of burr or wire on the back that I’m not getting off that is grabbing the paper part way through the slice. I can put the chisel to work now and probably be fine, but I want to get this sharpening right. LOL. Going to try the method Rob mentioned at some point today.


If you encounter resistance by lightly running the tip of your fingernail along the edge you either have a burr remaining or there is a nick. The former can be removed by stropping or similarly running the blade back and forth along on a piece of hardwood, keeping the back of the blade flat on the board or course. Harder steels have more stubborn burrs. If it's a nick you'll have to grind it out making edge straight. If the nick isn't too deep you can probably just recreate a secondary bevel and tertiary bevel if you wish. That's my take on it for what it's worth.

[Keegan Shields]

How does the chisel perform in soft wood and hard wood?

[Greg Parrish]

How does the chisel perform in soft wood and hard wood?

As mentioned, its sharp and it cuts okay. It will slice through hardwood end grain pretty well. No comparison to the unprepared chisel as received from LN. That unprepared chisel feels sharp, but this one feels like a razor blade, or at least a slightly dulled razor blade. But, I just have that feeling that it could cut a little better. Don't know how to describe that feeling other than I just pick up that its not slicing as freely and easily as I think it should. Granted, with a mallet it will not matter, but I'm talking about paring or cutting by hand through hard maple or the like.

Was just reading about the LN A2 steel again. Been a while since I studied up on the steel types before buying chisels. Don't really know what my Two Cherries chisel is made from, but other than the higher lands I like it a lot. I'm still getting to know the LN chisels though. On planes, I've got some older Stanley blades, a couple of LN A2 blades, and a few LV PM-V11 blades. Haven't tried honing/sharpening the A2 plane blades yet so I don't know if they are as fussy. The article here is what reminded me about the common thought that LN A2 steel was more finicky to sharpen. https://www.axminstertools.com/us/ideas-advice/o1-a2-or-pm-v11-which-steel-is-for-you/?glCountry=US&glCurrency=USD

For kicks and giggles, I did order a 3/8 and 1/8 LV PM-V11 chisel to compare. Interested in the feel, the handle comfort, and the steel. I have mixed feelings on the LN socket handle anyway, and always find the Two Cherries handle and balance more comfortable. That said, I want to lick this sharpening issue on my LN set and not let that be a deciding factor. I'm more interested in comfort and feel at the end of the day.

[Greg Parrish]

EUREKA!

Well, Derek and Rob hit the nail on the head. There was a wire or burr on there that just wasn't coming off with the 8000 grit stone. I took both chisels and did what Rob mentioned by sliding the tip through the end of some soft pine and then went to the strop. I did both the front and back of the blade using the strop I currently have (flex cut strop kit - block of Purple Heart with leather glued on and flex cut gold compound). No clue if it's any good but I'll say I don't like this compound because its hard and has to be melted with heat gun to apply. Regardless, after a few seconds on the strop, I'm able to slice paper freely and get a really sharp edge. Just what I was looking for.

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I may search out a better strop and compound setup I think, but I'm glad to have this figured out so that I can actually compare chisels on things like comfort, balance, and feel. Didn't want it to be based on something like sharpness if I can't get both equally sharp. Thanks a million for all the replies and help.

[Graham Haydon]

No problems Greg. My videos are diabolical, but sometimes helpful.

I wish I could see the edge but I'm not a paying member of SMC so I can't.

I think if you're able to slice paper and trim end grain easily then perhaps just go to work.

It'll only improve. My India is #400 and it's a serviceable edge for woodworking. Stick with the coarse grits until you know you're removing the burr cleanly.

[Tom M King]

I’m glad you figured it out. Once the back is polished, it should never take more than a couple of minutes to get a chisel sharp.

Stropping is not absolutely necessary though. I have never stripped an edge, so can’t say I even know how to.

[Tom M King]

Stropped. Can’t figure out how to edit on phone

[Matthew Eason]

I will add that regardless of the steel I find I need to hit the strop to get that easily slice paper effect you're going for.

[Greg Parrish]

Thanks guys. Honestly not sure a paper slicing razor edge will hold up that long but for hand use like paring or whatnot, it would seem the sharper the better. If I go to whacking on it with the mallet for something like mortise clean up, it was probably sharp enough before. Regardless, I'm glad to have learned how to do it so for that I'm thankful.

[Graham Haydon]

Great news!

[Rob Luter]

That's great news. Once I cracked that code it made all the difference.

[Reed Gray]

Take a look at the recent thread I posted about sharpening. For me, the burr needs to be removed, and I can still feel a burr at 15000 grit. Playing around with my skew chisel for my wood lathes, I found out that the burr has to be stropped off. A find diamond hone will still leave a burr. My skews would cut fine on one side, but when I flipped them over to cut the other direction, they did not cut nearly as well. Strop off the burr and there was a world of difference. You do not need heavy pressure as you sharpen, just the weight of your arms and hands is more than enough. Holding the tool steady is more important. I think most of my chisels are sharpened to 25 degrees, with the micro bevel being at about 30 degrees. With the sharpening jigs, sharpening was the easy part. Learning how to properly use them was a whole different challenge. Same with the hand planes. Oh, an old school method of removing the burr was a piece of softer end grain wood and you just drove the chisel into the end grain a few times and burr was gone, and edge was still good.

robo hippy

[Edward Weber]

Thanks guys. Honestly not sure a paper slicing razor edge will hold up that long but for hand use like paring or whatnot, it would seem the sharper the better. If I go to whacking on it with the mallet for something like mortise clean up, it was probably sharp enough before. Regardless, I'm glad to have learned how to do it so for that I'm thankful.

IME many people over sharpen.
Every chisel, due to it's bevel angle and metallurgy, has a sweet spot, what I call "working sharp".
This is where the tool is sharp enough to use properly and wears the longest.
You can sharpen well past "working sharp" to the tens of thousands of grit, but after only a small amount of use, you're back to the sweet spot. This is why I say many over sharpen. The return benefit, for the amount of time and material needed to get your tool scalpel sharp is minimal IMO

With turning tools, we often sharpen on a 180 grit wheel and that's it.
Sure, we could go a lot further but the result would be much the same and we would be back at the wheel in about the same amount of time.
Just my personal view

[Greg Parrish]

I agree Edward in that I don't intend to go further. The biggie for me was getting the initial prep done right. From this point forward, I'll be simply hitting the edge with either the 5000 and 8000, or just 8000 stones and then stropping. In many cases, I may just strop from time to time during usage. I don't need it to slice paper all the time and won't be chasing my tail sharpening non stop, but needed to get the process and skills down before getting started. I'm certainly not going to build a lapping board with 12 grits on it. No time for that. Heck, it took so long to get the initial prep done on each of the chisels so far that I don't want to touch them any more than needed. LOL But at least this is a one time process until I wear through the bulk of the primary bevel. Then I'll need to learn to regrind the primary bevel and start over, but thats for another day.

[steven c newman]

Had 6 chisels to put away, today...decided to sharpen all 6 before they went back into the rack....1/2 hour's work, all done.

Over-thinking this?

[Greg Parrish]

PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT: It's too late to edit the earlier posts, but went back and measured the chisel widths. Just incase I refer back to this thread one day, wanted to correct that the two chisels involved were my 5/8" and my 3/4". I don't currently have the 1" LN chisel as my set runs 1/4 - 3/4. So, for correction purposes, anywhere above I was saying 3/4 replace with 5/8, and where I said 1" replace with 3/4. That is all. LOL :)

[Greg Parrish]

Took a few hours to go through the back preparation and sharpen/hone process on the rest of my chisels tonight. All are now ready to work and are currently sharp enough to shave paper, but what a pain to get the initial prep done. I dred dragging those messy stones out again for the next round of sharpening, but I don’t really see an easier way for touch up or hones once the strop stops being effective.

Next up will be to go through my plane blades and get them all sharpened and honed. Especially the new ones.

[Derek Cohen]

Greg, it really should not be an effort to sharpen a chisel. When it becomes an effort, then you stop doing so. And then you find another tool to use instead.

Sharpening the back is quick if you only concentrate on the first 1". Diamond stones are great: start with the coarsest and run through the grits until shiny. Then never do this again, other than a polish for the wire.

The bevel should take 30 seconds if you hollow grind the face. The hollow reduces the steel to sharpen, and all the effort that goes into the affair.

Remove the wire. Done.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[David Carroll]

I agree about flattening and lapping only a portion of the back. I take it a step further (well less far) I only lap the back a little. Maybe a 1/4-inch. And I don't do it as a separate step, After sharpening the bevel and bringing up a burr, I hit the back a little further than necessary, with just a couple of strokes. The one exception to this are those chisels that I reserve for paring, where I am registering the back against some reference surface (like a miter template). Those I polish up more. I think (just my opinion) that folks in general pay more attention to polishing backs and bevels than is necessary. But if it makes them happy to count nose hairs in their reflection on the back of the chisel, then go for it. But, it's not prerequisite to a functional sharp edge.

[Charles Guest]

Took a few hours to go through the back preparation and sharpen/hone process on the rest of my chisels tonight. All are now ready to work and are currently sharp enough to shave paper, but what a pain to get the initial prep done. I dred dragging those messy stones out again for the next round of sharpening, but I don’t really see an easier way for touch up or hones once the strop stops being effective.

Next up will be to go through my plane blades and get them all sharpened and honed. Especially the new ones.

There is no way I can stress how far off the rails you've run with this thing. Just take a break. For your own sanity. Little if any of what you're doing at this point makes sense. You have a completely distorted interpretation of the entire process.

[Greg Parrish]

Okay, taking a deep breath, as this is very frustrating.

Reading Derek's reply, I see that it was unnecessary to polish the back after flattening. That's where my extra time was spent. Rather than flatten on the course diamond stone (or shapton) and then move on, I polished the flat back up through my grits. That appears to be unnecessary.

The other thing that seems to be different depending on who you follow is how much of the back you flatten. Watching the Lie Nielsen video's, they follow a process that flattens about 2/3 of the back. The video I posted earlier shows this and that is what I followed with regards to how much I flattened.

Re-reading comments, I probably wasn't clear that these are all new chisels as received from Lie Nielsen and never sharpened. This was the first time the back had been flattened or prepped. This isn't something I would do every sharpening, I know that.

Regardless, my chisels are extremely sharp now. I just don't need to polish the back all the way to 8000 grit it would appear. Regardless, I'm still learning and this is frustrating so please help me understand where I'm running far off the rails if it's not the items I've just pointed out. My end result was a good, flat, sharp chisel. Other than over polish the back, where am I going wrong? Thank you and I appreciate the feedback.

[David Carroll]

Don't get frustrated! If your chisel can cut paper cleanly as you say, then you've done a good job. Bear in mind that all this business about flattening and polishing the back of the chisel only really needs to be done once. Once that's done, you can go a long way by stropping alone. When you need to regrind, you can hit the back once or twice to maintain it.

Both Rob Cosman and Paul Sellers have videos on sharpening that are useful, mostly to show you just how fast it's done in real life.

The truth of the matter is that your tools need to be sharp enough to do the kind of work you want to do. They don't need to be sharper than this. A lot of folks swear by one method or the other and because it works for them, they believe it to be universal, or worse, they think their way is the ONLY way to sharpen correctly. It's nonsense, there's a hundred ways to get a tool sharp. The journeyman carpenter I worked for as a helper back in the Carter administration used a mill file to sharpen his block plane iron and stropped it on a sheet of cardboard. Would it cut paper? no, but for soft woods and adjusting cedar shingles it did the job. The whole process took him a minute, including the time it took to go up and down the scaffold.

These days I rarely check how sharp an edge is by cutting paper or arm hair (don't have much of that left after 50 years), instead, if I am in doubt, I take a small piece of pine and pare the end grain. If it pares cleanly and leaves a smooth, almost waxy surface, I'm done.

I'm not sure I understand why you think you're "off the rails," it sounds like you are doing it exactly right. The first few times it'll take you forever, but eventually you will find a method that works for you and touching up an edge will take only minutes.

Good job!

DC

[Greg Parrish]

Thanks David. I was basing my "off the rails" comment by what Charles posted right above my post.

I don't really care if it will shave paper or arm hair either, but that was my test while learning for when I had it really sharp. I knew if it would slide through paper, I got it right. I certainly realize it won't stay that sharp once it starts working in wood. Anyway, thanks for the encouragement. Will move forward with my process, but will refine a few things like the level of grit I polish the back to to cut the time involvement down. Cheers.



Don't get frustrated! If your chisel can cut paper cleanly as you say, then you've done a good job. Bear in mind that all this business about flattening and polishing the back of the chisel only really needs to be done once. Once that's done, you can go a long way by stropping alone. When you need to regrind, you can hit the back once or twice to maintain it.

Both Rob Cosman and Paul Sellers have videos on sharpening that are useful, mostly to show you just how fast it's done in real life.

The truth of the matter is that your tools need to be sharp enough to do the kind of work you want to do. They don't need to be sharper than this. A lot of folks swear by one method or the other and because it works for them, they believe it to be universal, or worse, they think their way is the ONLY way to sharpen correctly. It's nonsense, there's a hundred ways to get a tool sharp. The journeyman carpenter I worked for as a helper back in the Carter administration used a mill file to sharpen his block plane iron and stropped it on a sheet of cardboard. Would it cut paper? no, but for soft woods and adjusting cedar shingles it did the job. The whole process took him a minute, including the time it took to go up and down the scaffold.

These days I rarely check how sharp an edge is by cutting paper or arm hair (don't have much of that left after 50 years), instead, if I am in doubt, I take a small piece of pine and pare the end grain. If it pares cleanly and leaves a smooth, almost waxy surface, I'm done.

I'm not sure I understand why you think you're "off the rails," it sounds like you are doing it exactly right. The first few times it'll take you forever, but eventually you will find a method that works for you and touching up an edge will take only minutes.

Good job!

DC

[Charles Guest]

Okay, taking a deep breath, as this is very frustrating.

Reading Derek's reply, I see that it was unnecessary to polish the back after flattening. That's where my extra time was spent. Rather than flatten on the course diamond stone (or shapton) and then move on, I polished the flat back up through my grits. That appears to be unnecessary.

The other thing that seems to be different depending on who you follow is how much of the back you flatten. Watching the Lie Nielsen video's, they follow a process that flattens about 2/3 of the back. The video I posted earlier shows this and that is what I followed with regards to how much I flattened.

Re-reading comments, I probably wasn't clear that these are all new chisels as received from Lie Nielsen and never sharpened. This was the first time the back had been flattened or prepped. This isn't something I would do every sharpening, I know that.

Regardless, my chisels are extremely sharp now. I just don't need to polish the back all the way to 8000 grit it would appear. Regardless, I'm still learning and this is frustrating so please help me understand where I'm running far off the rails if it's not the items I've just pointed out. My end result was a good, flat, sharp chisel. Other than over polish the back, where am I going wrong? Thank you and I appreciate the feedback.

Just take a break.

You can't keep from polishing the back over time if you hit it to take the burr off. It's going to get polished, but no, you certainly don't need to rub it on a stone for hours in one marathon session.

Go to the range and beat some balls. Do something else besides tool fettling. Hit the reset button. Go to dinner, drink a nice bottle of wine. Unwind. It'll do you some good.

When you get rested and relaxed, find somebody near you that you know has sharp chisels so you can see and feel what one looks like and how it performs. In person. Not a video, still picture, or magazine article, or posts on a forum. Try the local woodworking club, a neighbor, somebody on this board that lives close. Somebody. A physical being in possession of a sharp chisel.

[David Carroll]

[I] will refine a few things like the level of grit I polish the back to to cut the time involvement down.

Now that you have given the full treatment to one chisel (at least) you can use that as a bench standard. You know how sharp you got that chisel. Now, for the next step try to do the least amount of work you can to the next one to get it to a comparable level of sharpness. You may find that only a little lapping of the back right near the cutting edge is all you need to get this next one equally sharp. Or just be sure to strop the back, it will polish itself doing this.

I'm not really a tool collector, but I did purchase a tool chest filled with tools that all date from about 1850 to 1910. These were well used, but really well maintained. The chest itself and some of the hand made tools in it show a high level of craftsmanship. In this chest there are nearly 30 chisels of all varieties. All were put down for the last time around WW1 and never used again. Someone carefully painted cosmoline (or something similar) on every chisel, plane iron and drill bit.

Every chisel was sharp enough to use and bore no evidence of recent sharpening. There were a few things I have noticed. First, every single bevel is very slightly convex, the opposite of hollow ground. The bevel angle is low, making the angle right at the edge about what we use today. There was no micro-bevel. This was not sloppy grinding, they are all expertly sharpened and deliberately sharpened in this way. I have seen this before, particularly on old tools from England, and always assumed it was an anomaly.

The backs were smooth, like they were stoned, but not to a particularly fine grit. But they were certainly not mirror polished either, except at the very edge, maybe 1/16th of an inch back. It's always dangerous to make generalizations based on one example, but this one old-timer, one William Ogilvie, from Dundee, Scotland, working back at the turn of the last century and before, didn't see the need to go to great lengths to polish the backs of chisels beyond some practical length arrived at by regular stropping.

In fact, in examining every old chisel that I have ever seen, certainly hundreds if not thousands, I have never seen clear evidence that polishing the back was a regular practice, beyond what occurs naturally from stropping as Charles suggests.

Best Regards,

DC

[Rafael Herrera]

What sharpening media did you find in the chest and what was its condition?

[David Carroll]

What sharpening media did you find in the chest and what was its condition?

There wasn't very much in the way of stones, one small one, not mounted and as sway-backed as an old pack horse. There were other notable absences, despite it being a pretty full set, and all stamped with the same name (no others, so I assume he bought the tools new). For instance, the only backsaw of any type, was a brass backed dovetail saw, made by Nurse which dates to about 1910 and is the newest tool in the bunch and one of the only tools not stamped, so I am not sure it's original to the chest. There was also no brace, despite there being a full set of bits for a brace all filed with a notch in the same spot. I found an old Scotch brace that fits the bits well. There were plenty of handsaws, one is an old Tyzack, (IIRC) with a very old mark, mid-1800s and is the oldest verifiable tool.

One thing that was interesting to me is that he had nearly 30 small bradawls and used them a lot! Some were tiny, 1/32-inch and went all the way up to about 3/16-inch. There was a compartment with several new ones without handles. He made octagonal handles, mostly out of beech, for nearly all of the chisels and the awls.

Another thing was that he made several tiny octagonal handled "saws." At least they have saw teeth filed into them. The blades are no more than an inch or so long, maybe 0.015-inches thick, 1/4-inch wide at the base where it meets the little handle and it tapers up to only 1/8-inch at the tip. Both sides have saw teeth filed into them with no set. I've never seen anything like them before and I haven't a clue what they were for.

There were very few molding planes. No hollows or rounds, but a nice set of side beading planes and a beautiful bridle plough, with all of the irons. There is a pretty full compliment of bench planes and the coolest one is a very old jack plane that has a pronounce groove where his pinky wrapped around the tote, thousand of times, leaving a semicircular groove around the tote in the body of the plane. The beechwood is blackened from age, except you can clearly see where his fingers held the tote, leaving clean patchesHe must've had a second chest, with some of the missing tools as well as his name stamp, which didn't come with the chest I got.

I have no clue what this man's specialty was based on these tools. There is an envelope filled with mica pieces, none larger than half a playing card. The envelope has the words "Dundee Steam Boiler Cover Company" printed on it. I imagine he might've worked for this company, but haven't researched it yet. Whatever he did for a living, he drilled a lot of holes, drill bit, bradawls, gimlets and Brace bits of every description.

It's a really spectacular collection of tools.

DC

[Jim Koepke]

Another thing was that he made several tiny octagonal handled "saws." At least they have saw teeth filed into them. The blades are no more than an inch or so long, maybe 0.015-inches thick, 1/4-inch wide at the base where it meets the little handle and it tapers up to only 1/8-inch at the tip. Both sides have saw teeth filed into them with no set. I've never seen anything like them before and I haven't a clue what they were for.

These may have been made for a particular purpose or even for veneer cutting.

Any chance you can post some pictures of the tools and chest?

jtk

[David Carroll]

These may have been made for a particular purpose or even for veneer cutting.

Any chance you can post some pictures of the tools and chest?

jtk

I was thinking it might be that, or something used in Marquetry, which I know little about.

I will go through it and take some photos, I took a bunch when I first got the chest, maybe 10 years ago? Right now the chest is at my son's house. We're building a shop for him (and me) and I'll move all of the machines there (about 10 miles from here), so except for a small drill press and hand drills/drivers, I'll be entirely unplugged here. I'm renovating my studio/shop/carving space here at the house for when I retire. Once the shop(s) are done, I'll move it back.

DC

[Edward Weber]

I was thinking stringing or some other type of inlay

[Reed Gray]

David, I recently had a couple of videos pop up on You Tube which were about mini saws that were made and used specifically for putting the cross hatching on gun stocks or tool handles. Makes sense to have a small saw to do it because a chisel would cause tear out. That is what your mini saws might be for.

robo hippy

[Edward Weber]

Checkering would make sense of some of those tools, wish I thought of that

[Charles Guest]

Given the hours you've spent, on the media you own, you should have the proverbial atom splitting edge. There would be no doubt it was sharp. None. Zero. You could slice the entire alphabet out of a piece of copier paper and every single millimeter of every letter would be perfectly clean and you wouldn't have to go the stones once during the process. That you don't have that sort of edge clearly indicates that something is amiss in your methodology.

[Bruce Page]

Closed per OP's request