Hand Saw Taper Grind?

[Steve Mathews]

Bob Garay in one of his videos defines taper grind to take place from front to back for a hand saw as opposed to from heel to toe. Yet on my warranted superior saw there is definitely a taper (about .010") from heel to toe. Since the thickness above the tooth line is constant I suppose this makes it a compound taper. The E. Garlick & Sons (lynx brand) that I have states that it is taper ground and is consistent with Garay's definition. It doesn't have much of a taper, only a few thousands. Can I assume from this that there is no consistent form of taper for a hand saw? Is there one more prevalent than the other? And as a stretch is one better than another or does it really matter?

[Assaf Oppenheimer]

Tapering a panel saw is done to prevent binding of the plate deep in the cut. A non tapered saw requires greater set to accomplish this. by tapering the saw (making it gradually thinner on the top then on the bottom) you can afford to have less set which allows for a more precise saw (less prone to wandering). tapering the saw thinner at the toe then the heel might help keep the weight on the handle and afford greater control but it isn't what counts when you want a tapered plate. There is at least one Disston model out there (I forget which) that claims no set needed in the teeth because of the grind. Of course if you are using it for green woodworking you want a large amount of set so the tapering isn't much of a selling point.

[Charles Guest]

Often presented as sign of quality and a high-end saw, if it's not tapered perfectly at the factory will produce a saw that tends to develop a slow curve at the toothline nearly impossible to fix without a serious amount of peening. Some saws advertising as having been taper ground (vintage and new) don't have enough taper to really matter. They made a stab at it, just so they could honestly say that "it's taper ground."

A guy sawing 11 hours a day six days a week would appreciate the slightly narrower kerf made possible when it's done well. The typical weekend warrior hand tool enthusiast, who's more likely than not on a circuitous journey back to ripping with power, can ignore it. One not taper ground will withstand general lack of sawing finesse much, much better.

[steven c newman]

At one time, there was a chart, that showed where and how a saw plate was tapered by Disston at their factory. I think you will find that the higher you went up from the teeth, the thinner the plate....hardly any out at the toe...to quite a bit back in front of the handle, where the plate was widest, in terms of height.

Hmm, No. 120 ACME saw?

[Charles Guest]

Yep, that's how it was supposed to go.

[Steve Mathews]

I found a few more hand saws stashed away in my barn/shop; a Stanley Professional #89-108, 8 pt. crosscut, Pennsylvania brand? crosscut and the junkiest of the bunch another crosscut with no markings and a falling apart plywood handle. Oddly enough the junk saw blade is tapered. The Pennsylvania one is not. Possibly the nicest saw I have is the Stanley and it is to tapered. In all I have at least plenty of saws to practice sharpening. I may also try making a handle for the falling apart plywood one.

[Steve Mathews]

I just watched the video below showing in some detail how Garlick & Sons saws are made. No where is the taper grinding process mentioned or shown even though the saws are advertised this way. In fact they show making 2 saws out of a "flat" sheet for "economical reasons". I have one of their hand saws (not back saw) and it does have a very slight taper to it. What am I missing?

[Steve Mathews]

What is the proper hand saw taper? The limited number of saws I have range from a couple of thousands to as much as .010".

[Rafael Herrera]

What is the proper hand saw taper? The limited number of saws I have range from a couple of thousands to as much as .010".

I would not worry about the amount of taper the manufacturer inparted to their saw plates. As long as there is some taper, then you got it, the saw is better by having it than not having it.

In this page there is an illustration of the regions on the plate that were ground to taper them.

http://www.backsaw.net/index.php/2-uncategorised/5-nomenclature

Were all saw plates ground like in the picture, of course not, it just gives you an idea.

I've a Disston D12 plate, I measured some spots with a micrometer. It is tapered.

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[Charles Guest]

The fact of the matter is that I could put a blindfold on everybody in this thread and you'd have no clue whether the saw you were using had taper or not. Zero clue.

[steven c newman]

Yeah...right......

[Tom M King]

The fact of the matter is that I could put a blindfold on everybody in this thread and you'd have no clue whether the saw you were using had taper or not. Zero clue.

How much is the bet?

[steven c newman]

Would know the moment I picked up a saw by the handle.....Vintage saw handles were made to actually fit your hand...

Once I pick up one of my older saws, it is very hard to set them back down...

[Charles Guest]

How much is the bet?

I'd bet a thousand bucks you couldn't identify taper vs. non-taper at rate exceeding that suggested by pure chance.

[steven c newman]

This has got to be one of the Dumbest ideas I have ever seen ...Even from Sir Charles..

Who going to be the judges....what saw are to be used....what lumber will cut...what's to keep someone from sawing off a thumb....Dumb idea, start to finish....

IF YOU want to try this Fools Errand....go right ahead....doubt IF will even prove anything

[Tom M King]

I would love the challenge, but am tied down at home caring for my 107 year old (Birthday today) Mother. I'm the only one who can pick her up to transfer her, and otherwise it's a miserable existence for her to have to stay in bed.

Charles, I doubt you have any idea how much I've used handsaws over the past five decades. I won't take your money, but even if I wasn't tied down at home, it would not be worth a grand to travel anywhere.

Here is a picture of my first sawbox that I made in 1974. I sat on it many days eating lunch. I never bought old handsaws and fixed them up, but bought new to use. Back then, you could still buy a decent handsaw. This box also carries the long backsaw used in the Langdon-Acme that I bought new and trimmed out new houses with for 18 years before I ever found a powered miter box that I liked. Picture was taken just a few years ago, and some of those saws are still used.

Steven, I wouldn't be worried about sawing any body parts off.

Also attached is a sample picture of siding that was always cut with a handsaw, with marking by a preacher. Also one of the houses that every piece of replacement siding was cut such a way so that no caulking would be used on the house. Every piece was painted on the ends before being put up, which is why the preacher has paint on it (sorry, couldn't find pictures of the preachers easily). That white house is an 1828 house, so not much is still plumb and square on it, hence the advantage of using a preacher rather than measure and mark.

Those siding ends might look like they are tight, but you can move each one in and out with a finger, so they're floating. If you force one in tightly, it will open up the one below. That siding is protected by a 14' porch roof, so it didn't need to be sealed. It was 27 years old when I took that picture. I'm sure every piece would have been right off the saw.

I have no doubt that I could tell you which one was tapered, but which one was tapered more than another one, and also how many teeth per inch it has if the wood I'm cutting is one I've used before.

I'll be glad to do this challenge any time anyone wants to oversee it, but it's no telling how long I'll be tied up here like I am now.

[Charles Guest]

Not making a comment on your skill or experience other than in the narrow context that you couldn't identify whether or not you were using a taper ground handsaw if you were blindfolded and therefore couldn't tell anything about the saw by sight.

Years ago, I built an 1100 sq. ft. A-frame cabin off the grid, with no power tools, but I don't call myself an accomplished carpenter. I'm a bench woodworker.

[Jim Koepke]

you couldn't identify whether or not you were using a taper ground handsaw if you were blindfolded and therefore couldn't tell anything about the saw by sight.

That doesn't make sense. Even if it were true about not identifying what was being used blindfolded, there is no basis for saying one couldn't, "tell anything about the saw by sight."

In a piece of greenwood even an amateur like myself would be able to notice the difference between a taper ground and non-ground saw by the way it would bind in a cut of more than a few inches.

jtk

[Charles Guest]

That doesn't make sense. Even if it were true about not identifying what was being used blindfolded, there is no basis for saying one couldn't, "tell anything about the saw by sight."

In a piece of greenwood even an amateur like myself would be able to notice the difference between a taper ground and non-ground saw by the way it would bind in a cut of more than a few inches.

jtk

A saw doesn't need a taper grind to keep from binding in the cut. If you think it does, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of hand saws.

[Tom M King]

What I was trying to say was that I'm sure I could not only tell you which saw was tapered and which one not if I was sawing with them blindfolded, but could tell you which one was tapered more than another one, as well as how many teeth any saw had.

For instance, it's easy for me to tell that the Sandvik saws I like have less taper grind that Disston's, but they are better for working up on scaffolding like an Alum-A-Pole workbench because the ever so slightly stiffer saw is better for sawing in odd positions, such as holding the board vertical while more in front of you than on a saw horse. The taper they do have is still good enough to not need such wide set.

You can get by with one with no taper, but you need a wide, honking set on the teeth, and slight variations in set make a noticeable difference to a skilled person with a handsaw. For one with no skill it might seem like it would make no difference, but it would eliminate the possibility of acquiring anything above a rudimentary skill level.

Taper grinding does matter. They didn't do it for fun, or to save metal back when they were used all day, every day. Those that don't believe it, or are trying to sell saws without it are uninformed or worse. As Mark Twain said, it's easier to fool someone than to convince them that they have been fooled.

Here's one of the Sandvik's making an out of position cut.

[Jim Koepke]

A saw doesn't need a taper grind to keep from binding in the cut. If you think it does, you have a fundamental misunderstanding of hand saws.

Of course, putting more set than is needed for dry wood can cut without binding. That is a wider kerf than I prefer, if the saw is going to be used for different woods with different moisture content.

In my opinion there are enough saws in my shop without having two or three different saws for every occasion.

jtk

[Tom M King]

If one is not going to use a piece off the saw, and you just want to shorten a board to do some other operation to the end, it makes no sense to put a lot of time and effort into what saw is used. You may as well just use the cheap hard toothed saws.

[Warren Mickley]

If one is not going to use a piece off the saw, and you just want to shorten a board to do some other operation to the end, it makes no sense to put a lot of time and effort into what saw is used. You may as well just use the cheap hard toothed saws.

No. In cabinetmaking we often knife the board all around and saw very near to the line, then plane to the line. A nice saw cut lets us saw close to the line and have minimal stuff to remove with the plane. A rough saw cut and the evidence runs deep into the piece.

[Tom M King]

That makes sense, and would be the way I would do it too if I ever had that sort of need. I use power tools too though. I wonder how long it really takes for someone to learn to be able to do this, and if the buyer of an expensive saw even knows what the goal is.

You're still only talking about staying a few thousandths away from the line, which really requires no less skill than sawing to the line.

[Jim Koepke]

When cutting to the line this is my goal:

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The knife marking can be seen all around. One or two passes on with a shooting plane makes a smooth clean end.

jtk