Pocket hole poll

[Cameron Wood]

Not to offend the fans, but pocket hole joinery has always seemed wrong to me- toe screwing into ends & edges of boards.

A couple of years ago, I thought I should try it & got a set up, but I have still not used it. I'm not a purist & use nails, screws, plugged screws, dowels, biscuits, dominos, m&t, dovetails, splines, etc..

What's your take?

- Love it

- Necessary for production

- Meh

- Say what?

[Paul F Franklin]

I don't use it on fine furniture (or as close as I get to fine furniture), but have no issue using it for things like cabinet boxes where it won't be seen after installation.

[Jeff Roltgen]

Necessary for production: Face frames, cabinetry and attaching FF to cabinet. +1 regarding invisibility after installation.
Meh: The shift from an angled pull of a pocket screw is a disadvantage on face frames.
Like (love too strong an adjective): Same parts shift that is frowned upon for face frames is advantageous with cabinet pieces, as internal seams are pulled tight from a pocket hole screw coming from outside the cabinet, aiding a cabinet floor, for instance, as it's being seated to the shoulder of a dado or rabbet.

Necessary part of my business, but no fault found in a purist approach for the finest of cabinetry and furnishings.

jeff

[Lee Schierer]

I purchased my Kreg pocket hole jig at a wood show. I took it home and had similar thoughts that you expressed above. I was building a dresser and found that I needed to add a piece that in the interior frames. Things were glued together and there was no way to drill holes to screw the needed piece in place. I remembered my Kreg jig and was able to put two pocket hole screws in each end of the piece and screw it in place. I have found many uses for it since then.

This sewing table was for a friend. It needed to go down a set of stairs to a finished basement. There were two 90 degree turns to get to the basement. At 72" long, 37" high and 30" wide, it would not make the two turns. The only option was disassemble it, take it to the basement and then reassemble it. The entire cabinet was made from high quality birch plywood and assembled with Kreg pocket holes. It holds close to 250 pounds of fabrics, poster board and other materials. It was made over 15 years ago and there have been no problems.
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Pocket hole joinery in cabinet making has been around since the 18th century (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWR_q4d8GoA) so it has withstood the test of time. You can make stronger joints if you apply glue, but I've never had a joint fail.

One other use that I've found for them is when building cabinets and dressers with solid wood side panels. To insure the cabinets end up square, I build frames from 1 x 2 poplar. I build the frames with lap joints and take extra care to insure the frames are square. I mount the frames to the cabinet sides (cross grain application) with three pocket hole screws. One at the front, one mid way and one near the back. I elongate the h screw part of the hole on the center and rear hole to allow for seasonal expansion of the side panels. I used the same technique on this hickory night stand to attach the top and shelves to the leg assembly.
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[Thomas McCurnin]

I love mine for cabinet drawers, not fine furniture. Depending on the species of wood and the thickness of the stock, you may have fiddle a bit with the length of the screws, but that is minor.

[Steven Mehl]

May not be for fine furniture but worked great for a fence. kreg sells a 'bigger' version for 2x4 lumber. Was great for attaching the cross pieces to the posts. Beat toe nailing or screwing from the top and bottom of the cross pieces. Made for a very sturdy structure

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[Ralph Okonieski]

It is one tool in the toolbox. It has its place. It is used when the need dictates but otherwise there are better methods. There times when it is the best approach at solving a problem.

[roger wiegand]

Great for what it was invented for, holding a face frame together until it can be glued on to a cabinet box. I use them and like them for that purpose. Haven't yet found another use for which it is my preferred joint.

[Jim Becker]

I use pocket screws when it makes sense to me to do so. I see no issue with them if they are installed properly and are appropriate for the strength needed for the particular project. It's a perfectly valid method of joinery just like so many others. It's good to have choices. :)

[Frederick Skelly]

I use them very occasionally, perhaps once in 5 years.

[Thomas Pender]

I am with Jim Becker on this. I use them where they work. Have seen some strength tests that seem there validate their use over other stuff, including Dominoes. For me, I still make through tenons, have both Dominos, a dowel jig, and a Kreg Jig I attach to my Festool HEPA Dust Collector. It is all a matter of utility and I bet if Gustav were still around he would use Kreg screws. BTW, some fine furniture makers indeed use them - have a modern Stickley Cherry Buffet (made 10 years ago) and in a few spots that will not see the light of day, Stickley used pocket screws. Also have some Amish stuff with pocket screws.

[Dave Zellers]

Have never used them, will never use them. Ugh. I have an irrational distaste regarding them.

[Bruce Wrenn]

Pocket screws all the way. In working life, there was no substitute for pocket screws when building face frame cabinets. Pocket screw boxes together, face frames, attach face frames, and drawer boxes using pocket screws. Attached hardwood edging using pocket screws. Attached back splash to counter top using pocket screws. Here there is a guy who builds dining room tables. Instead of clamping, the individual boards in the top are pocket screwed together for glue up. Allows him to work one board at the time, getting them flush with each other.

[Melvin Feng]

I really only use them for utility purposes. Our dining chairs were starting to creak and pop when applying a lot of pressure in the center. The only way to add support easily was to add a stretcher and attach it with pocket hole screws, so that's what I did.

Our laundry station in the house was setup before we moved in, and it has the machines elevated a bit with a single step up, but with that step, there was a gap, just right for dropping socks through, never to be retrieved. I added some wood to that space, and pocket hole screws made the most sense for that purpose as well.

When it comes to personal projects and furniture though, I do steer away, as I prefer the look and satisfaction of traditional joinery, even if it takes me longer. I am doing this as a hobby, and not making money on it, so I can take my time and not worry about it. If I was on a time crunch, or had a bunch of casework to do, I would definitely consider pocket holes though, especially if it were my primary profession.

[Jerry Thompson]

I have never used it and I doubt I ever will.

[Andrew Hughes]

I’ve used pocket screws to align and hold nearly impossible angles to clamp with glued parts slide. This is very advanced techniques.
Good Luck

[Ken Fitzgerald]

I had a knockoff given to me by a relative. I use it when I find an application that defies my limited abilities.

[Ron Selzer]

have used it, don't care for it

[Rich Engelhardt]

I use them all the time.
So did the Egyptians.

[Maurice Mcmurry]

I do not have a Kreg outfit. Years ago I built some attempts at artistic woodworking and used screws hidden in 3/8 holes covered with wood plugs. I received many nice complements on the projects from non carpenters and several "Thats cool but the screws are tacky" from carpenters and furniture makers. One of the "artistic" pieces is coming back to the shop to be refinished. I am trying to come up with a plan to replace the screws with treenails, dominoes, and butterflies. My Face frames are mortis and tenon made with two router tables. Pocket screws have their place. Being humiliated by them was not uplifting for me.

[Kevin Jenness]

Not to offend the fans, but pocket hole joinery has always seemed wrong to me- toe screwing into ends & edges of boards.

A couple of years ago, I thought I should try it & got a set up, but I have still not used it. I'm not a purist & use nails, screws, plugged screws, dowels, biscuits, dominos, m&t, dovetails, splines, etc..

What's your take?

- Love it

- Necessary for production

- Meh

- Say what?

Since you're not a purist, what's keeping you from trying it out? It does work and has for centuries - for locations that are hidden or not required to be pristine.

I was skeptical when I first saw it being used for joinery, but after more than two decades I know it works for a lot of situations. Cabinet face frames for instance: glued and pocket screwed painted butt joints not backed up by a carcass element would soon telegraph any movement, but they perform as well as wood-to wood joints. Pocket screws can save time when attaching face frames to boxes, assembling toe kicks and many other mundane tasks.

I will say that the low angle routed pockets work better than drilled ones in terms of joints shifting during assembly, and in either case the problem can be minimized by clamping the joints endwise while driving the screws. Also, when you refer to "toe screwing into ends & edges of boards", pocket screws into end grain are rarely used for the obvious reason.

[James Jayko]

They've got their place. Most of those mentioned above.

Another place they have: helping people new to building stuff get involved and make something for themselves. Hard to see that as a bad thing; average guy who wants to build himself a coffee table doesn't have a hollow chisel mortiser, jigs, sleds, Festool Domino, copious number of clamps. I think anything that makes it easier for someone to get into making things has a place in the zeitgeist. Case in point: I helped my girlfriend's 10 year old make a tiny trebuchet, and he was able to do 95% of the assembly himself with pocket screws.

[Brian Runau]

May not be for fine furniture but worked great for a fence. kreg sells a 'bigger' version for 2x4 lumber. Was great for attaching the cross pieces to the posts. Beat toe nailing or screwing from the top and bottom of the cross pieces. Made for a very sturdy structure

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That's a great idea. Brian

[Michael Burnside]

I purchased the small Castle USA pocket hole router and it eliminated everything I hate about pocket holes. Particularly the shift even when clamping. It is night and day better, really. I also use their screws exclusively.

I don't use pocket screws on any of the fine furniture woods/builds but they are awesome for cabinets, drawer boxes and face frames where you'll never see the joinery holes. I personally don't get peoples distaste for them. It's like they won't draw the line with power tools but they'll dig in when it comes to CNC and pocket holes.

P.S. I have no affiliation with Castle USA

[Paul J Kelly]

Two things to unpack here.

1 - I do not use pocket screws in furniture. I kind of am a purist on that. There are many more elegant solutions for a piece of furniture IMHO.

2 - I use them for face frames and cabinet boxes. I do not like the Kreg system. The often talked about 'shift' is real and a deal breaker for me. I found out about low angle pocket screws about 7-8 years ago and that changed my mind for cabinets and face frames. The "Castle" version works so nice!

I found a Porter Cable production pocket cutter on ebay brand new for $400 and jumped on it. It is a licensed copy of the Castle TSM-12 (or an older version of it) and the difference between a Kreg and the Castle is night and day IMHO.

If I ever have the chance to find a great deal on a used Castle TSM-22 (floor standing and foot pedal operated pneumatically) I will jump on it!

P.S. The castle screws are really nice too. Small head and a torx if you want that (which I do).

P.S.S. I do not have any affiliation with Castle...

PK
PKwoodworking

[Alan Kalker]

Most of the cabinetry I do is of the furniture type so I don't use them. But, if I made kitchen and bathroom cabinets commercially I'm sure I would.

[andrew whicker]

I use them all the time for cabinetry and shop made stuff. I just used it last night to build an extra 4" to 5" of width onto my assembly table. That along with dominos. I just cut some 3/4 ply blocks to use as gussets under the extension. I used pocket holes to screw the gusset on.

As far as 2x4's go, I just keep a brad drill bit or a countersink drill bit handy to pre drill at an angle before using screws. I just did this the other day on a "handyman" / "keep the bills paid" job where I had to build a drop down / fir down for a dryer vent (that I also installed. Learn new things every day :rolleyes: ). No special tooling needed.

[Lisa Starr]

I like to use them when assembling cabinetry as it allows me to free up clamps. Most of my carcases are doweled or loose tenoned for alignment purposes. Glue up the cabinet, clamp long enough to drive the screws and move on to the next carcase. I prefer to make sure no pocket holes are visible after install.

[chuck van dyck]

Recently did this big funky banquette. Pocket screws really made the install process doable. This thing is floating on steel and the “wings” were attached last since it went into a tight window bay. Much easier than cauls or straps all things considered.
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Currently building a vanity out of resawn old joists. Will 100% be pocket screwing the drawer shelf frame.
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Needless to say I don’t mind em! A little harder to grain match the plugs than a straight screw though.

[andrew whicker]

Can we get photos of this shop? Looks interesting


Recently did this big funky banquette. Pocket screws really made the install process doable. This thing is floating on steel and the “wings” were attached last since it went into a tight window bay. Much easier than cauls or straps all things considered.

Currently building a vanity out of resawn old joists. Will 100% be pocket screwing the drawer shelf frame.
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[Charles Lent]

It has it's place, but I don't depend on it's strength and absolutely won't use it if it can be seen after assembly. It does hold things together - "while the glue dries", so sometimes when speed of assembly is more important and needed over good looks I have used pocket hole joinery more than I wanted to. I have both the Kreg K3 kit as well as a pocket rocket. Both get used if the need is correct, and always to "hold things together while the glue dries". Strength of their joint is not important if the glue is there to hold it together for the long term.

Biscuits (I know, not in this discussion) also get used by me, but mostly to assist with alignment rather than getting glued in place. I don't like gluing them, because sometimes as the glue dries, they will telegraph their shape to the surface of the wood, leaving a shallow 1/2 biscuit shaped depression in the surface of the wood (most evident with soft woods) as the glue moisture in the biscuit dries out and the biscuit shrinks in thickness.

There, one post to cover two frequently asked questions.

Charley

[Justin Rapp]

I have a Kreg pocket hole set. I've used it a bunch of times but it's not my go-to when building. There are times when they make sense, i'll use em.

[Jim Dwight]

I think pocket screws have their place. The resulting joint is normally stronger than a through screw would provide because of the angle of the pocket screw. It is not stronger than a properly made and sized mortise and tenon, including one where the domino is used to cut the mortises. But you have to use a proper sized tenon, not tie yourself to the premade ones. Anyway, I only use pocket screws where they won't show unless it's for my shop or something. I have drawers in my shop made with pocket screws but also have dovetailed ones. I'd rather use dominos for face frames, however, because it is still possible to see the pocket screws on many face frames if you look. I think they are strong enough for cabinet joints or small face frames but I don't like looking at the holes they require. They are not strong enough for an apron to leg joint, domino tenons (correctly sized) are.

[Terry Therneau]

I had a Porter Cable router based pocket screw machine for a while. The noise of cutting the slot nearly drove me out of the shop. After 2 projects I sold it or maybe gave it to Habitat. Are the Castle jigs loud as well?
Terry T.

[Kevin Jenness]

I had a Porter Cable router based pocket screw machine for a while. The noise of cutting the slot nearly drove me out of the shop. After 2 projects I sold it or maybe gave it to Habitat. Are the Castle jigs loud as well?
Terry T.

The Castle machines are based on a couple of routers, so yes.

[glenn bradley]

Great problem solvers as mentioned. This type of joinery has been around since the 1800s and before. I think where people get a negative opinion about them is when they are used in place of more traditional joinery. They have a purpose and a good use case just like any other joinery method. Do I use them where I would normally use a mortise and tenon? No.

[Allan Dozier]

499208I am no purist and use pocket holes any time I can. When assembling cabinets I use it for attaching the backs and also for drawer boxes as well as face frames. They've never failed me for such. I have a stationary Castle and it will cut multiple pockets in a large piece of ply in seconds. If commissioned for a fine piece of furniture I might cut dadoes for the drawer bottoms but just for expectations. If they are for my use in cabinests I go with pocket holes.

[George Yetka]

Cabinets/shop furniture for me. I have a k5 but I bought a foreman for an upcoming cabinet project

I really like that they make projects very approachable for anybody. My sister has one and likes it. She has a cordless drill, 2 screw drivers, 1/2 a tape measure and a kreg jig.

[Andrew More]

I use them, but avoid them in some applications mostly for looks. Mathias did some testing a while back, and found no significant decrease in strength vs more traditional joinery.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apsH8eBfjVA

[glenn bradley]

Interestingly I just this morning used them in place of clamps for an awkward internal structure glue up. I had done a dry run with the end panels standing on the floor like they would normally.
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This allowed for clamps between the front and rear planes to capture the plywood drawer area dividers. It was awkward and potentially problematic.
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By using pocket screws instead of clamps I was able to do the assembly on the bench a lot easier.
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[Paul Haus]

I find this interesting. Do I use pocket screws: absolutely. Do I use them in every situation: no. Before people cry wolf, know I had a repair and restoration business for several decades. I did a lot of work on 'old' stuff and I can say for doubters: that the screw pocket is nothing new. It was used on quite a few pieces of Pre-Civil war furniture to do things like hold aprons onto tabletops. It was not near as sophisticated as what's done today. Many times, it was a simple V groove cut in the back of the apron then a hole drilled on a diagonal through one side of the v to screw the top on.
If you have a situation that presents itself and a screw pocket can solve the situation, then consider it. Notice I didn't say do it, rather consider it. If it seems right, then do it. If not, then don't.

[Bob Potter]

I use them on face frames. Because they are quick and easy and normally can't be seen.

[Warren Lake]

the only pocket holes I have are in my blakladder work pants from putting screws in them.

[Greg Quenneville]

I have several joinery options available. I rarely use my Kreg but am glad to have it for those times when it is the fastest or sometimes even the best method available. I am a hobbyist woodworker and
builder of our (British colonial) period home including all millwork.

If I did a lot of pocket screw work I would try to buy something more sophisticated like a Castle.

[Julie Moriarty]

Not to offend the fans, but pocket hole joinery has always seemed wrong to me- toe screwing into ends & edges of boards.

A couple of years ago, I thought I should try it & got a set up, but I have still not used it. I'm not a purist & use nails, screws, plugged screws, dowels, biscuits, dominos, m&t, dovetails, splines, etc..

What's your take?

- Love it

- Necessary for production

- Meh

- Say what?

It's hard to beat for simple, fast connections. I've used it a lot on cabinet face frames. Never had one fail. But the pieces have to be clamped down tight before screwing.

I did a kitchen remodel for a neighbor and bought a box of 2500 pocket hole screws for the job. I used about half. My neighbor loves his cabinets. In fact, that remodel has motivated him to remodel the entire house.

For all the trashing it gets, pocket hole joints can work just fine, in certain applications.

[Ole Anderson]

First time I used pocket screws, I was amazed at how stiff and strong the joint was. I will use them whenever the ugly holes are hidden, as in cabinet boxes.

[chuck van dyck]

Can we get photos of this shop? Looks interesting

Lol its a cool spot. A nice thing about working collectively is you can more easily afford a ton of space and nicer machines. Also about a 5min walk from New York Harbor. Eat lunch just about every day looking out on the water towards Lady Liberty.

We have about 6 pros working full time.

[Sean Nagle]

Before people cry wolf, know I had a repair and restoration business for several decades. I did a lot of work on 'old' stuff and I can say for doubters: that the screw pocket is nothing new. It was used on quite a few pieces of Pre-Civil war furniture to do things like hold aprons onto tabletops. It was not near as sophisticated as what's done today. Many times, it was a simple V groove cut in the back of the apron then a hole drilled on a diagonal through one side of the v to screw the top on.

I too have found the apron screwed to the tabletop using a screw in a "pocket" while repairing several antique tables.

[Cameron Wood]

Kudos to all for the civility of the discussion.

I do toe-screw often, for structural and semi-structural connections with 3 1/2", 4" & 5" screws. I have 6" drill bits set up with Fuller countersinks for the purpose.

[Mark Gibney]

Nancy Hiller used pocket screws extensively in her work. In her book Kitchen Think she shows putting face frames together with them.
I use them in situations like Glenn above, to secure parts that will be unseen and that would be difficult to clamp.

I also get the distinction between cabinetry and furniture. However if there are young would-be woodworkers reading this I would say to them not to get hung up on the separation. People feel they NEED cabinets and storage spaces. They will pay for them.
People might feel they need a new dining table or interesting sideboards, and may talk it over with you and look at some drawings and ideas, and then go and buy one from Pier One Imports or someplace like that. Woodworker beware!

[Charlie Jones]

I use them occasionally where it is hard to use more traditional joints. I hate the way they look.

[chuck van dyck]

Nancy Hiller used pocket screws extensively in her work. In her book Kitchen Think she shows putting face frames together with them.
I use them in situations like Glenn above, to secure parts that will be unseen and that would be difficult to clamp.

I also get the distinction between cabinetry and furniture. However if there are young would-be woodworkers reading this I would say to them not to get hung up on the separation. People feel they NEED cabinets and storage spaces. They will pay for them.
People might feel they need a new dining table or interesting sideboards, and may talk it over with you and look at some drawings and ideas, and then go and buy one from Pier One Imports or someplace like that. Woodworker beware!

I would very much like to second this suggestion. I am in my 6th year as a full time “woodworker”. My plan was to make bespoke furniture. I do some of that but mostly do millwork now and I honestly have too much work. I use hand tools on site as much as possible but sometimes you gotta whip out the multitool or fasten with pocket screws. Its all good!

[Warren Lake]

You mean you planned to make custom furniture.

[chuck van dyck]

You mean you planned to make custom furniture.

Not exactly. I planned to only make custom furniture. While not freestanding, I do try to view the custom millwork as furniture when appropriate.

Fortunately I do make a bit of custom furniture. Unfortunately, I don’t exactly see a path making only custom furniture that is viable to support my family’s current needs.

[Ron Citerone]

Don’t use them and doubt I will. So many ways to accomplish the same things they do, or so it seems to me. Nothing against those who have learned to use them.

[Cameron Wood]

You mean you planned to make custom furniture.

If this was a dig at the term 'bespoke', I agree with the sentiment- excessive hip/trendiness,

but it is actually probably an older word than 'custom' for the use.

[Jared Sankovich]

They are great in certain applications
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[Warren Lake]

its a word from another shore not ours. Used to baffle customers who believe then work is worth more.

I dont relate to doing whats shown there id do mortise and tennon and mitre the bead.

In his 70's the old guy did his kitchen in Hickory all doors and face frames and door fronts were mortise and tennon. He had no use for cope and stick at least the small cutters. Same time he always said do what is right for you.

[chuck van dyck]

Hmm, not much of a wordsmith myself but I see your point regarding the use of “bespoke”. I guess its just so common to see these days I’ve subconsciously adopted it. There was definitely a time not long ago I thought it was a gross term.

[Robert Tarr]

I do use them. I do like them, but after the Festool Domino I use them less often now. The one main advantage is they are "self clamping" while the glue dries. I have a large number of clamps, but using pocket joinery, it takes far fewer clamps than traditional joints. I love this one aspect, alone, because it makes wood working more approachable for beginners (the cost of 3 or 4 pipe clamps will more than cover a pocket hole jig.)

[Warren Lake]

hey Chuck wasnt picking on you though it seemed that way, more the businesses that use that word cause its warm and fuzzy. The bottom line is the work. Design, proportions, construction, material quality and layout and all that stuff.

[Jonathan Jung]

Pocket screws have so many uses, mostly for cabinets, shop things, and jigs.

[mreza Salav]

Almost never use them, don't remember the last time I used (probably more than 15 years ago).

[Mark Gibney]

I use the word custom, but everyone I know back in Ireland where I grew up uses bespoke.
And believe me nobody there feels the word communicates anything other than what custom communicates to us. It's just the term used in the UK, our bigger neighbor.
I don't like the term bespoke. But I also didn't like the term trunk for a car boot, or store for a shop, for many years after moving here. Now the opposite is true, of course it a trunk! and a store! fahrenheit not celcius! and what's with the driving on the other side of the road!

[Warren Lake]

not the same thing

[Michael Burnside]

not the same thing

Agreed, custom makes a lot more sense and is less condescending. It's like the rest of us call a Porsche a "porsh" and those that own one call it a "porshaaaaaa" :D

[Ray Newman]

"For all the trashing it gets, pocket hole joints can work just fine, in certain applications."
--Julie M, post #45

Bingo!

[Jonathan Pace]

I agree with @Jim. When the need dictates, then I make use of them.

[J.R. Rutter]

The low angle dual router Porter Cable / Castle push-pull benchtop machine has been amazing. Great way to clamp dominos when the pocket holes won't be visible, and also quite strong with just screws. I've broken apart face frames and had the wood fail before the joint.