Sharpening

[Reed Gray]

Saw this, while surfing You Tube this evening. Like from the old Laugh In, 'Very interesting!"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBjiEmN5HzA&t=0s

robo hippy

[David Carroll]

Interesting! I rarely ever comment on sharpening threads anymore, because it's a question like, what type of women are most beautiful?, or what type of beer is tastiest?. Everybody has their own ideas and there is rarely consensus. I remember an account of Tage Frid sharpening on a relatively coarse belt grinder and then finishing on a felt buffing wheel. He seemed to do okay, though it ate up chisels quickly, by the account I read.

I agree in general with the guy's conclusions, It doesn't really matter which system one uses. It's important to strop for a really keen edge. The sharpest edges dull quickly but remain pretty sharp for a long while. Folks often sharpen more than they need to.

Nowadays I use diamond stones and a leather strop with green compound. Even though he says it isn't the best system, the convenience, lack of mess, and little stone maintenance has won me over. My edges are plenty sharp, at least sharp enough for the work I do, in the woods that I typically work with. (soft woods and relatively well behaved hardwoods). I suppose if I were working with more difficult stuff I'd think differently.

DC

One thing that nobody talks a lot about is to sharpen for the specific task. If I am going to be paring end grain or sharpening the plane iron I use for shooting, I always take great care to get as keen an edge as I can. If I am touching up an edge of a chisel for chopping, I am somewhat less careful. I think a lot of folks do this without really thinking about it.

[Raymond Seward]

It's tough to crawl out of that youtube rabbit hole once you get started.......

[steven c newman]

Almost as entertaining as starting a Sharpening thread on this site,eh?

[chuck van dyck]

I like a dan’s hard ark slip stone in the kit and shapton glass in the shop.

[kenneth hatch]

I watched, not a bad video but nothing new except maybe kinda hit on the most important thing about sharpening is getting a smooth cutting edge. No mention of oil stones? Strange. Are folks still posting about the "unicorn" system?

ken

[Reed Gray]

I am either blessed or cursed by being one of those people who just has to experiment. I like the idea of a hard and thin leather for strop. Eric Lofstrom, notable turner uses kangaroo leather for his strop because it doesn't compress. That would make rounding the edge over more difficult to do. The journey continues.... Sharpening at this level is new to me. My bowl gouges are sharpened at 180 grit and no honing or stropping the burr off.

robo hippy

[Jack Dover]

Any thin leather PVA glued to a hard substrate like MDF doesn't compress either. The glue soaks into leather and hardens it just enough. Found this by a happy accident. But then just MDF with polishing compound works as good. I think leather strops come from the days before polishing compounds sticks. Tanned leather has quite a high chromium content, which makes it abrasive, so a strop would hone a nicely polished edge just enough to remove remnants of a wire edge. With the polishing compound a substrate is less important, I had strops made from regular denim jeans in a pinch, works the same (while it works).

Experimenting with sharpening is fun, esp. the days it improves your sharpness. Just beware that it's an expensive kind of fun and that improvements usually come from changes in your method rather than from changing abrasives. Except, of course, corner cases when you graduate from sharpening plane irons on 180grit sanding paper and palm stropping to a black arkie and power buffing, or something like that. In other words, once you start sharpening better than before, it's applicable to any kind of abrasives, be it diamonds, novaculite or waterstones, powered or not.

[Thomas McCurnin]

Jonathan Katz Moses just released a video on sharpening where he spent about $10,000 on sharpening systems and testing systems, including scientific sharpening meter that measures sharp in terms a relative number, in this case grams of pressure against a tensioned wire. He compared Tormex, scary sharp sand paper, sharpening stones, and other methods, along with different grades of tool steel, then deliberately wore down the blade and re-measured sharpness after numerous cuts through hard maple.

I found the video interesting to watch to really go down deep into the sharpening rabbet hole.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBjiEmN5HzA

[Rafael Herrera]

I don't know much about the thread-based sharpness testing device, but it seems very far removed from the actual action of cutting wood. A youtuber did a chisel test some time ago using the a similar device.

I find test results produced with a CATRA device a lot more informative. If interested, check this article by Larrin Thomas.

https://knifesteelnerds.com/2020/05/01/testing-the-edge-retention-of-48-knife-steels/

There's a lot of details in the article, but one can glean the key outcomes for some of the steels we use, i. e. O1, A2, D2.

[William Fretwell]

Something that bounces like a kangaroo yet has a leather hide that does not compress just seems wrong! Perhaps Derek has some kangaroo hide experience?

[Derek Cohen]

Something that bounces like a kangaroo yet has a leather hide that does not compress just seems wrong! Perhaps Derek has some kangaroo hide experience?


Rolf Harris had something to say ... sing ... :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RviuTfdfArM&ab_channel=jukejointjohnny48

I have used Horse Butt leather for about 20 years. You can get it from Joel at Tools for Working Wood.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Raymond Seward]

Almost as entertaining as starting a Sharpening thread on this site,eh?

🤣🤣🤣 Indeed it is...

[Reed Gray]

Tan me hide when I'm dead Fred...... I did like that song....

robo hippy

[Jason White]

I hate this “scientific” crap. Find a method that works for you and build something.

[Trevor Wentzel]

I just finished a wooden plate to hold three diamond stones in the vise at the bench. I used a chisel and router plane to get the stones into the plate. I took inspiration from Paul Sellers, but made mine a bit bigger so I could mark the 30 degree lines for chisels and plane irons right on it.
I think I'll use a magnet to help secure them into their spots, instead of silicone.
I'd like to be able to take them out as needed.
For those that use diamond stones, what liquid are you using?

[Jim Ritter]

Caution on using a magnet to hold the ‘stones’ it will also attract all that swarf that you sharpen away.
Jim

[Charles Guest]

Sharp is pretty easy. It's polish that drives people to insane lengths and expenditures of money.

[Reed Gray]

As for fluids, I use the Trend Lapping fluid some times, and an automotive glass cleaner other times. If you use a glass cleaner, then you want ammonia free cleaner because the ammonia can bother the plating on diamond lapping plates. Water also works. I also put a little of the Trend fluid on the bevels of my turning tools when I sharpen to help keep the CBN wheels clean.

robo hippy

[Russell Nugent]

I made mine removable with just a finger hole at the end of each plate, I do like to be able to take them out, I don't flip mine upside down or anything that would cause the plate to fall out.

[Trevor Wentzel]

Caution on using a magnet to hold the ‘stones’ it will also attract all that swarf that you sharpen away.
Jim

I had not thought of that, thanks.

[Trevor Wentzel]

I made mine removable with just a finger hole at the end of each plate, I do like to be able to take them out, I don't flip mine upside down or anything that would cause the plate to fall out.

Genius. Thanks, that's perfect.

[David Carroll]

For those that use diamond stones, what liquid are you using?

I use diamond stones, I have a fancy name brand set and then I made a board like Paul Sellers made using the $12 thin (2mm) plates he featured. They work great and have lasted 2+years of pretty heavy use. I bought a spare set of diamond plates, but haven't ended up needing them so far.

As for liquid, if I have some really heavy lapping to do with the coarse 'stones' I will use a little windex. But what I like about the diamond stones is you don't have to use any liquid. I so vacuum the surfaces at the end of the day, but that's it. Sometimes I'll use a bit of WD-40 if I notice the plates turning reddish with rust. But mostly I use them dry.

DC

[Derek Cohen]

Caution on using a magnet to hold the ‘stones’ it will also attract all that swarf that you sharpen away.
Jim

Hi Jim

Good to see you here again.

I built drawers for chisels 12 months ago, and used rare earth magnets to secure each. No signs of the blades becoming magnets as yet.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Thomas McCurnin]

I just finished a wooden plate to hold three diamond stones in the vise at the bench. I used a chisel and router plane to get the stones into the plate. I took inspiration from Paul Sellers, but made mine a bit bigger so I could mark the 30 degree lines for chisels and plane irons right on it.
I think I'll use a magnet to help secure them into their spots, instead of silicone.
I'd like to be able to take them out as needed.
For those that use diamond stones, what liquid are you using?

I just frame a 1/2" piece of stock around the diamond stone to capture it and include a half round cutout to enable me to remove the diamond stone. I like Paul Sellers method.

[Jim Ritter]

Thanks Derek, still here just not posting much. Just recently getting my shop up and running after the move to Maine.
i was more thinking the magnet would hold the swarf to the stone while in use. A magnet to hold a tool in place is fine just don’t slide the tool along the magnet. I have a nice pair of shears that got stuck to a rare earth magnet I have on the sewing machine and I made the mistake of sliding the the shears free. Now if they get anywhere near steel they go right to it.
Jim

[Joel Gelman]

I just came across this video. I thought sure, the Kangaroo strop sounded interesting and I saw a link for purchase. Sold out! No option to buy. Guess Kangaroo is popular!

[Reed Gray]

I got some from, I think it was Maverick Leather in Bend Oregon. Can't remember the cost, but it isn't cheap. I don't think you can get it in California or New York. Used to make hacky sacks out of the softer hides because it was so strong. Horse butt is another common stropping leather. For me, I use planed off poplar or alder. No problem getting it loaded up, and it isn't too hard, and isn't too soft. The thing with the kangaroo leather is that the tooling type leather, and I think the hides I got were 2 oz. is that it doesn't compress as you strop. I asked the question maybe a year ago about what do you strop on. Got a lot of answers, including balsa wood, which I can see as being excellent for carving chisels since you can compress it to the perfect fit.

robo hippy

[Jimmy Harris]

Thanks Derek, still here just not posting much. Just recently getting my shop up and running after the move to Maine.
i was more thinking the magnet would hold the swarf to the stone while in use. A magnet to hold a tool in place is fine just don’t slide the tool along the magnet. I have a nice pair of shears that got stuck to a rare earth magnet I have on the sewing machine and I made the mistake of sliding the the shears free. Now if they get anywhere near steel they go right to it.
Jim

You can demagnetize it, or just about anything else, if you want. There are a bunch of ways to demagnetize metal, and if it's not a permanent magnet to begin with, it's usually not too difficult to do. For instance, you might be able to demagnetize it by just hitting it with a hammer. Shock or heat can destabilize the magnetism in metals. Or you can take or build and electromagnet and feed it AC current (you can usually find AC to AC power bricks at thrift stores) and move the scissors close and slowly pull them away from your AC powered electromagnet. Or, you can mimic the same idea by spinning a permanent magnet near the scissors and slowly pulling them away. Like you could take a magnet, attach it to a stick and put that in the chuck of a drill to spin it. Or even dangle it from a twisted string. You're just subjecting it to a rotating electromagnetic field and slowly reducing the strength of the field until it reaches zero.

I do a lot of electronics work and built an AC electromagnetic demagnetizer because I have some specialty screwdrivers that I'm always needing to magnetize or demagnetize depending on what I'm doing. It comes in hand with drill bits as well, as they tend to get magnetized when drilling steel.

[Jim Ritter]

Thanks Jimmy, I was more sharing what can happen if the magnet was slid along a diamond plate. These are really nice shears and there is no way I would hit them with a hammer or subject then to the heat needed to demagnetize. I do have a demagnatizing (is that a word?) coil so I’m all set.
Jim

[Jim Koepke]

I do have a demagnatizing (is that a word?) coil so I’m all set.

The word I remember, from the days when part of the family business was TV repair, is degaussing.

It was used on CRTs to remove magnetic fields that would mess with color images. Most of the later ones have a built in degaussing coil. Older CRTs needed a technician with an electro magnet.

It has also been used on ships to neutralize their magnetic signature and protect against magnetic mines.

jtk

[Jimmy Harris]

The word I remember, from the days when part of the family business was TV repair, is degaussing.

It was used on CRTs to remove magnetic fields that would mess with color images. Most of the later ones have a built in degaussing coil. Older CRTs needed a technician with an electro magnet.

It has also been used on ships to neutralize their magnetic signature and protect against magnetic mines.

jtk
Yeah, same thing. As you probably know, a gauss is a unit of magnetism. Though the term "degaussing" generally is only used when talking about ships, TV's, or storage media like tape, floppy discs, hard disk drives, and stuff. Demagnetizing is usually the term used for most other things like tools and whatever. Why are there two terms with the same basic meaning but are used in different scenarios? I have no idea.

I've worked a bit on CRT TVs. 30,000 volts is no joke!

[Jim Koepke]

Why are there two terms with the same basic meaning but are used in different scenarios? I have no idea.

It's just the way of the trades. What we call a marking gauge people in many framing shops call a scribe.

What some of us call a large chisel others will call a spud or a slick.

Candy and I have agreed to disagree on what is or isn't a spatula.

Wasn't there a story about something like this called the Tower of Babble?

jtk